seems just about anyone can get into medical school these days

[sanche60]

umm, if an individual passed the boards he deserves to practice... simple as that.

I know I'd be f-cked if getting in was in any way judged by the quality of my undergrad classmates.

i wasnt saying they shouldnt be allowed to practice. you missed my point.

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[Pansit]

Its actually a horrible post. . .

1st - I guarantee you I could have passed the USMLE tests right out of high school if I spent enough time studying. That in no way qualifies me to practice medicine. Being qualified to practice medicine has to do with the extensive hours we spend training and interacting with patients and learning how decisions are made.

I never said USMLE's guarentee you to practice medicine...its the combination of Medical school classes, clinicals, three steps of USMLE, Residency training, recertification tests that allow you to practice medicine...if you can do that in high school, then yes I would say you can practice medicine...

2nd - medical school requires more than just hard work. Trust me any average joe could not succede in medical school no matter how hard they tried.

Because the average joe is not willing to work hard enough believe me...they dont know to study properly, and if they realize that they wont work hard enough to fix it....come one, how hard is anatomy to understand...how hard is biochem if you read the whole textbook page by page...its not hard, you need the will to do it, something the "average joe" does not have.

3rd - Do not just listen to what a nurse tells you is wrong with a patient. Not only is that being lazy, its not fair to the patient. Remeber you are better trained than the nurse. Physicians make mistakes all the time, I guarantee you so do nurses.

I never said to "just" listen to the nurses...i said to go and make sure yourself, but often times they are right...it doesnt take a genious to diagnose someone who is having a heart attack,(heck I can probably do that now), or to tell someone they are having a fever...most of the cases that you will see (especially in the ER) are not baffling cases (we leave those case to House MD). Heck, Half time I go see my PCP, he is not there and a PA goes and sees me, and they know just as much...it doesnt take a GENIOUS, to be a doctor.

 

[Blade28]

it doesnt take a genious to diagnose someone who is having a heart attack,(heck I can probably do that now), or to tell someone they are having a fever...most of the cases that you will see (especially in the ER) are not baffling cases (we leave those case to House MD). Heck, Half time I go see my PCP, he is not there and a PA goes and sees me, and they know just as much...it doesnt take a GENIOUS, to be a doctor.

There are many times when a patient can be having a heart attack and not show obvious signs or symptoms. I won't get into all the specifics here, but you'll see later on that diabetics and the elderly, especially, present differently. Just be careful about being too cavalier with diagnosis.

And not all the cases in the ER are easy to figure out, either.

By the way, it's "genius." Normally I wouldn't point that out but I couldn't resist the irony.

 

[Pansit]

There are many times when a patient can be having a heart attack and not show obvious signs or symptoms. I won't get into all the specifics here, but you'll see later on that diabetics and the elderly, especially, present differently. Just be careful about being too cavalier with diagnosis.

And not all the cases in the ER are easy to figure out, either.

By the way, it's "genius." Normally I wouldn't point that out but I couldn't resist the irony.

haha see...and I am going to be in med school..

 

[TRAMD]

I never said to "just" listen to the nurses...i said to go and make sure yourself, but often times they are right...it doesnt take a genious to diagnose someone who is having a heart attack,(heck I can probably do that now), or to tell someone they are having a fever...most of the cases that you will see (especially in the ER) are not baffling cases (we leave those case to House MD). Heck, Half time I go see my PCP, he is not there and a PA goes and sees me, and they know just as much...it doesnt take a GENIOUS, to be a doctor.

it doesn't take a GEE-NEE-OHWS, [pause for the comma] to be a doctor.
--sorry, I know Blade28 already pointed that out, but it made me laugh.

House is very unrealistic. Someone coughs in the next room, House hears it and smells blood in the air and diagnoses them with Wegener's Granulomatosis and TADA! he is right! This is of course FAR more common than them coughing from a URI and having epistaxis secondary to excessive use of decongesting nasal sprays or excessive nose-blowing.

If you get into medical school, be sure to point out to the ER docs how easy their job is.

 

[Northerner]

it doesn't take a GEE-NEE-OHWS, [pause for the comma] to be a doctor.
--sorry, I know Blade28 already pointed that out, but it made me laugh.

House is very unrealistic. Someone coughs in the next room, House hears it and smells blood in the air and diagnoses them with Wegener's Granulomatosis and TADA! he is right! This is of course FAR more common than them coughing from a URI and having epistaxis secondary to excessive use of decongesting nasal sprays or excessive nose-blowing.

If you get into medical school, be sure to point out to the ER docs how easy their job is.

Whatever. You're just jealous because you don't have the balls to hold a 12 year old kid's head underwater until he admits he feels "leukemia-y".

 

[8744]

Its actually a horrible post. . .

1st - I guarantee you I could have passed the USMLE tests right out of high school if I spent enough time studying. That in no way qualifies me to practice medicine. Being qualified to practice medicine has to do with the extensive hours we spend training and interacting with patients and learning how decisions are made.

2nd - medical school requires more than just hard work. Trust me any average joe could not succede in medical school no matter how hard they tried.

3rd - Do not just listen to what a nurse tells you is wrong with a patient. Not only is that being lazy, its not fair to the patient. Remeber you are better trained than the nurse. Physicians make mistakes all the time, I guarantee you so do nurses.

I see you have not had enough of the Koolaid. Don't you know that our extensive training is actually a handicap and that nurses, PAs, NPs, and others with a fraction of the training, through some combination of selection and time dilation, actually know more than physicians?

 

[Blade28]

I see you have not had enough of the Koolaid. Don't you know that our extensive training is actually a handicap and that nurses, PAs, NPs, and others with a fraction of the training, through some combination of selection and time dilation, actually know more than physicians?

Uh oh...here we go again!

Before people jump into this potential war, may I direct you to:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=427319

(The very benign-sounding thread "blood draws" )

 

[Tired]

I see you have not had enough of the Koolaid. Don't you know that our extensive training is actually a handicap and that nurses, PAs, NPs, and others with a fraction of the training, through some combination of selection and time dilation, actually know more than physicians?

It's because they're trained to treat the "whole person".

Apparently us MDs weren't.

 

[Northerner]

It's because they're trained to treat the "whole person".

Apparently us MDs weren't.

Wait a minute....you mean....wait, there's a "whole" person?! Why didn't anyone tell us this?!

****!

 

[Biscuit799]

Wait a minute....you mean....wait, there's a "whole" person?! Why didn't anyone tell us this?!

****!

yeah, there is. and it's usually treated by people who graduated from Caribbean med schools

 

[Dienekes]

I see you have not had enough of the Koolaid. Don't you know that our extensive training is actually a handicap and that nurses, PAs, NPs, and others with a fraction of the training, through some combination of selection and time dilation, actually know more than physicians?

*dons body armor* No fear, no pain, no retreat. This should be fun.

 

[flindophile]

i am frustrated. i am a us medical student attending a top 20 school. all i seem to hear about is the hundreds of kids that go to caribbean school and even abroad to eastern europe to get their md's. they go to places and islands i have never even heard of, then take their usmle's and are able to practice medicine in the states. some students are going right to the caribbean from high school. medicine is a profession of respect, integrity, and standards. if all these students are getting into school abroad, some without even interviews, doesn't this bring the standard of medicine practiced in the US down?? 20 MCAT 3.0 GPA; does this sound like someone you would want to be treated by?? is there any real benefit to even going to a US med school?? in the end the carib grads get jobs- make money, do whatever?? i just dont think the system is fair in rewarding US students who have worked hard to get into US schools. yeah there is a shortage of docs here esspecially pcps, but all the foreign docs dont go to the places there are shortages in, and opt not to even practice pcp fields; instead just oversaturate the cities and residencies. this is just bull ****. appreciate feedback and sorry for the rant.

Sounds like you are more concerned about the status associated with "getting in" than with the nature of the work. Some countries (e.g., France, Argentina") have a fairly open admission policy in medical school but people get weeded out along the way. Thus, "getting in" has no status but "staying in" does. It is much the same for the carib schools.

Also, unlike other professions (e.g. law, business) there is an artificial limit on the number of med school slots. The "quality" of incoming med students fluctuates with the popularity of medicine as a career. There are periods when it becomes more competive and others when it is less competitive. People who got admitted during less competitive periods would not have been admitted now. Still, they go on to be good doctors. The supply of medical school spots is lower than the demand by qualified applicants. The fact that someone fails to get admitted does suggest that they are less qualified than those who did but it does not suggest that they are unqualified to study medicine. The limited supply of med school spots has more to do with protectionism than it has to do with quality.

 

[Meatwad]

*dons body armor* No fear, no pain, no retreat. This should be fun.

Damn, man, you are one obsessed hellenophile. The user name, avatar, signature, and even this post are all a reference to ancient Greece.

 

[da8s0859q]

Damn, man, you are one obsessed hellenophile. The user name, avatar, signature, and even this post are all a reference to ancient Greece.

I had to Wikipedia his name (before reading the sig and finding that it, in fact, appears on WP), but yeah, the rest... well, hey, at least he picked an awesome topic with which to be obsessed

Or like a friend says, "I'm not obsessed. I'm dedicated."

 

[Dienekes]

I had to Wikipedia his name (before reading the sig and finding that it, in fact, appears on WP), but yeah, the rest... well, hey, at least he picked an awesome topic with which to be obsessed

Or like a friend says, "I'm not obsessed. I'm dedicated."

Thank you. *takes a bow*

 

[Blade28]

Good stuff! Good movie.

 

[TRAMD]

Whatever. You're just jealous because you don't have the balls to hold a 12 year old kid's head underwater until he admits he feels "leukemia-y".

What?

 

[MossPoh]

Edit: my day and consequent foul mood improved, so I'm removing my a-hole post.

Actually, you were completely wrong anyway on everything except maybe the grades to an extent. I admit there was a later grade that was due to incompetance. I was never adequetly prepped to study and then had multiple classes with group projects where something happened every time. I fully understand the scourges of in incompetant group majors. None of these bad grades have been in science or after my first semester. Since then I have had about a 3.8 with a 4.0 the last year at 18 credits, thesis, work, and research.

You're wrong because I haven't applied yet. I decided around the beginning of my senior year it was what I wanted. I've also preached FOR DO schools for quite some time, so it isn't really seen as a secondary alternative to me. (Maybe 15 years ago when my dad used to rail agains them) I'd prefer my state school for obvious reasons of course...

I was accepted to Phillips-Universitaet in Marburg and Humboldt Universitaet zu Berlin if you really wanted to know. Not the standard polish schools or anything.

 

[Northerner]

Actually, you were completely wrong anyway on everything except maybe the grades to an extent. I admit there was a later grade that was due to incompetance. I was never adequetly prepped to study and then had multiple classes with group projects where something happened every time. I fully understand the scourges of in incompetant group majors. None of these bad grades have been in science or after my first semester. Since then I have had about a 3.8 with a 4.0 the last year at 18 credits, thesis, work, and research.

You're wrong because I haven't applied yet. I decided around the beginning of my senior year it was what I wanted. I've also preached FOR DO schools for quite some time, so it isn't really seen as a secondary alternative to me. (Maybe 15 years ago when my dad used to rail agains them) I'd prefer my state school for obvious reasons of course...

I was accepted to Phillips-Universitaet in Marburg and Humboldt Universitaet zu Berlin if you really wanted to know. Not the standard polish schools or anything.

HOLY &%$#! I didn't realize you were Phillips-Universitaet in Marburg or Humboldt Universitaet zu Berlin material....wow, I think I'm going to need a minute here to collect myself, never have I been so wrong about someone's level of excellence. I mean wow, obviously we've all heard of PUM and HUZB and you're really hitting home throwing around names like those. But how, dear Great One, did you already gain admission to these medical juggernauts, when you claim you haven't applied?

As for the rest of everything I was so "wrong" about, I guess we'll just have to take your word for it, since nothing in the way of proof or reasoning behind all of this was offered on your part. Good job writing off your academic deficiencies with plenty of backpeddling, excuses, and blame-laying, though. Admissions committees love that, you'll be in good shape. But you already know that.

(And to think I tried to retract my original post and leave the poor bastard alone. What was I thinking?)

 

[Blade28]

What?

I'm guessing this happened in an episode of "House."

 

[combatmedic]

i am frustrated. i am a us medical student attending a top 20 school. all i seem to hear about is the hundreds of kids that go to caribbean school and even abroad to eastern europe to get their md's. they go to places and islands i have never even heard of, then take their usmle's and are able to practice medicine in the states. some students are going right to the caribbean from high school. medicine is a profession of respect, integrity, and standards. if all these students are getting into school abroad, some without even interviews, doesn't this bring the standard of medicine practiced in the US down?? 20 MCAT 3.0 GPA; does this sound like someone you would want to be treated by?? is there any real benefit to even going to a US med school?? in the end the carib grads get jobs- make money, do whatever?? i just dont think the system is fair in rewarding US students who have worked hard to get into US schools. yeah there is a shortage of docs here esspecially pcps, but all the foreign docs dont go to the places there are shortages in, and opt not to even practice pcp fields; instead just oversaturate the cities and residencies. this is just bull ****. appreciate feedback and sorry for the rant.

You are one ill informed,selfish ahole.

 

[TRAMD]

I'm guessing this happened in an episode of "House."

Ah . . . thanks.

 

[TRAMD]

HOLY &%$#! I didn't realize you were Phillips-Universitaet in Marburg or Humboldt Universitaet zu Berlin material....wow, I think I'm going to need a minute here to collect myself, never have I been so wrong about someone's level of excellence. I mean wow, obviously we've all heard of PUM and HUZB and you're really hitting home throwing around names like those. But how, dear Great One, did you already gain admission to these medical juggernauts, when you claim you haven't applied?

As for the rest of everything I was so "wrong" about, I guess we'll just have to take your word for it, since nothing in the way of proof or reasoning behind all of this was offered on your part. Good job writing off your academic deficiencies with plenty of backpeddling, excuses, and blame-laying, though. Admissions committees love that, you'll be in good shape. But you already know that.

(And to think I tried to retract my original post and leave the poor bastard alone. What was I thinking?)

Oh man. You said it all and I just enjoyed laughing about it.

 

[TRAMD]

Actually, you were completely wrong anyway on everything except maybe the grades to an extent. I admit there was a later grade that was due to incompetance. I was never adequetly prepped to study and then had multiple classes with group projects where something happened every time. I fully understand the scourges of in incompetant group majors. None of these bad grades have been in science or after my first semester. Since then I have had about a 3.8 with a 4.0 the last year at 18 credits, thesis, work, and research.

You're wrong because I haven't applied yet. I decided around the beginning of my senior year it was what I wanted. I've also preached FOR DO schools for quite some time, so it isn't really seen as a secondary alternative to me. (Maybe 15 years ago when my dad used to rail agains them) I'd prefer my state school for obvious reasons of course...

I was accepted to Phillips-Universitaet in Marburg and Humboldt Universitaet zu Berlin if you really wanted to know. Not the standard polish schools or anything.

I, like Northerner, don't understand how you were accepted without applying.

You joined this forum in April of 2006. One would assume you had "decided" on medicine before that time. So assuming that you decided on medicine at the beginning of your senior year and before April 2006 your senior year must have started (and your decision to go into medicine was made) around the fall of 2005 . . . 2 years ago. Am I confused or . . . yeah, I am.

If you preached for DO schools it is because you were scared you would have to go to one and "preached" it to save face. That or you are very misinformed (but it sounds like your dad is trying). Gaining admission to a US MD school with a 3.2 will be very difficult unless you have an insanely high MCAT or . . . well, that is about all that can save you unless you go to grad school and maintain a very high GPA. I am sure that I am not telling you anything you don't know. You can stop lying to yourself and to us because you are not fooling anyone.

 

[gujuDoc]

You are one ill informed,selfish ahole.

I think most people who have one thing low and the other high. Either they are someone with a 23-26 MCAT but a high GPA or at least 3.5 GPA or they are someone with a high MCAT but low GPA who end up in the carribean schools -well the more reputable ones. At least that is what I've seen with people from USF not sure about other people though.

 

[Northerner]

I'm guessing this happened in an episode of "House."

In the same episode he broke an old lady's nose with a roundHouse to the face and tasted her blood to diagnose hemolytic anemia because the nurse had trouble getting IV access (that one's for you, Blade-O). And he was just about to start hurling body blows to her left flank but got abducted by aliens or something equally realistic.

....but I mean it goes without saying that he can sense bilirubin and hematocrit levels better than some stupid lab machine can. Probably saved her life. I took notes.

 

[gujuDoc]

In the same episode he broke an old lady's nose with a roundHouse to the face and tasted her blood to diagnose hemolytic anemia because the nurse had trouble getting IV access (that one's for you, Blade-O). And he was just about to start hurling body blows to her left flank but got abducted by aliens or something equally realistic.

....but I mean it goes without saying that he can sense bilirubin and hematocrit levels better than some stupid lab machine can. Probably saved her life. I took notes.

 

[combatmedic]

I think most people who have one thing low and the other high. Either they are someone with a 23-26 MCAT but a high GPA or at least 3.5 GPA or they are someone with a high MCAT but low GPA who end up in the carribean schools -well the more reputable ones. At least that is what I've seen with people from USF not sure about other people though.

You are absolutely right gujulady. Only reason i called him an ahole is because i plain don't like the guy.

BTW i'm guju as well.

 

[gujuDoc]

You are absolutely right gujulady. Only reason i called him an ahole is because i plain don't like the guy.

BTW i'm guju as well.

I think its established that no one on the thread liked the OP.

 

[Blade28]

In the same episode he broke an old lady's nose with a roundHouse to the face and tasted her blood to diagnose hemolytic anemia because the nurse had trouble getting IV access (that one's for you, Blade-O). And he was just about to start hurling body blows to her left flank but got abducted by aliens or something equally realistic.

Classic stuff!

 

[TRAMD]

In the same episode he broke an old lady's nose with a roundHouse to the face and tasted her blood to diagnose hemolytic anemia because the nurse had trouble getting IV access (that one's for you, Blade-O). And he was just about to start hurling body blows to her left flank but got abducted by aliens or something equally realistic.

....but I mean it goes without saying that he can sense bilirubin and hematocrit levels better than some stupid lab machine can. Probably saved her life. I took notes.

^infinity

The body blows to take out her spleen-gone-rogue . . . pffft, hahaha.

My god that was a funny post. I am still laughing.

 

[Jwax]

Oh you poor, poor, misguided fool. Stand by to have your preconceived notions bayoneted and left to die with their entrails roasting on the hot sand.

Fantastic. I look forward to having my preconceived notions tarnished in the near future. Although to this (limited) point, I've been pretty satisfied by all the phsyicians I've witnessed practice medicine.

To start, I don't have the time at the moment to read all the comments before I throw my two cents in.

During orientation, one of the doctors that came and spoke with us as a small group went to a Carrib med school and did his residency program (actually, I think he was currently a 2nd or 3rd year resident) here in my state. He seemed like an intelligent, qualified human being. He had a good personality and I imagine in a clinical setting he does just fine.

The second person I've known to attend a carib med school is a man who my fiance arrested that was one of the biggest f***ing psychotics I've ever heard of. After the initial interview witht his guy, my S.O. gave him his business card w/his name and number on it. That evening, he gets a phone call from an unknown number who LEAVES A MESSAGE ON HIS VOICEMAIL telling him to "watch out" and a bunch of other BS threatening to kill him, and that he was God and all sorts of really fun stuff.... Obvious why he got to go to jail, huh? Threatening a police officer (he called from his own cell or home phone) and leaving a voice message. Smooth enough for a Keystone Light.

Anyways... I don't particularly care one way or another about the carib med schools. I just wanted to throw my two personal stories in the mix. I think I would only care about it if I lost out on the residency of my choice to a carib med grad, but if the USMLE kicked my USMLE's butt, then I guess it's my own fault. But, I don't think that kind of thing happens (the us grad getting booted over the carib grad). I don't think they have affirmative action for carib med student graduates.

 

[PugnaciousF]

Interesting thread. I'll throw in my own opinion for ****s and giggles, just don't jump down my throat if you disagree.


I think we're all frustrated with how many ridiculous drills and machinations we are forced to go through in our education. I will always wonder how well I could have done on my USMLE if my school had given me more than 4-5 weeks to study for it. Or if they had thrown out all those other stupid assignments and course work that had no bearing on the boards OR wards. Or if my teacher's weren't extremely apathetic and adept at providing crappy studying materials (which we all had to memorize for testing). I think part of my concern over foreign graduates is really my own concern over my US allopathic education.

Maybe the reason many of us don't like the idea of foreign graduates is just as law2doc suggested, we see them as students who found a backdoor to go straight into medicine with out all the ridiculous and needless BS we are forced to deal with. My "prestigious" undergrad degree is totally worthless in the medical field (physics) and I could have gone straight into medicine from high school, frankly, and probably done a lot better (my memory has turned to mush as I've slowly degenerated into an old fart).
Point is, I busted my ass in high school, undergrad, postbacc, and in medical school. I don't like the idea of someone not having to go through the same steps I've climbed to get to the top of the MD mountain. Especially, when they just had to sprint for two years to get to where I am. If the last decade of education hasn't proven anything it's that I'm hard working, intelligent, and resilient as hell. I want to work with other people who I can be assured are the same.

***Of course, maybe medical schools should streamline and improve their educational process... HAHAHAHAHAHA, like that will ever happen. Too much money in keeping us in education FOREVER.***


When I see foreign med grads "studying" for a up to a year and having a 67% pass rate after all that "extreme weeding" people are talking about, I begin to worry. Let's face it, US allopathic schools have a lot of weeding themselves and I definitely think I've lost at least 10% of my class along the way (I'm a MS3). I'm sure we'll lose a few more, but 97% of my class passed the boards on the first try so we must have done something right. You're supposed to pass the boards, how could 33 out of 100 people not pass at all? Thats a questionable student population or education (or both). Also, a lot of these foreign medical schools cost a crapload of money and have no financial aid. I almost look at foreign medical schools as a way of buying your way into med school w/o ANY academic qualifications. If I'm wrong, then tell me how?

 

[flindophile]

almost look at foreign medical schools as a way of buying your way into med school w/o ANY academic qualifications. If I'm wrong, then tell me how?

There is some truth to this. There are some carib schools that have minimal admissions criteria. Others, such as St. Georges, have admissions criteria that are comparable to DO schools and have USMLE pass rates that are on par with the bottom tier of US schools.

People often confuse input quality (admission standards) with output quality. While the two are related, high input quality is not necessary or sufficient for high output quality. Admissions quality is a function of supply and demand and is independent of the minimum standard that is required to practice medicine effectively. I doubt that the quality of doctors would change very much if, for example, medical school admissions were expanded to the point that anyone with a 3.0 could get admitted.

The important question is whether, after US residency training, those who attended foreign schools lack the skills to practice medicine effectively and safely. Is there evidence to suggest that USIMGS (10% of the match) are a menance to health? Could one predict, based on evidence from practice, whether a doctor had studied in the caribbean? I doubt it.

Once again, the handwringing about standards seems to be about preserving the status associated with "getting in." As some have pointed out, medicine is not rocket science and, in some countries, rocket scientists have higher status than doctors (because they are smarter). I have a friend from China whose parents sat her down and sadly said that she was not smart enough to be an engineer and that, given her inferior intellect, medicine might be a good choice.

 

[TRAMD]

There is some truth to this. There are some carib schools that have minimal admissions criteria. Others, such as St. Georges, have admissions criteria that are comparable to DO schools and have USMLE pass rates that are on par with the bottom tier of US schools.

I am not sure what a "bottom tier" US school would be. I attended a small US MD state school in the midwest that I love and think is excellent but many people might consider it a "bottom tier" school. It is certainly not well-known. My class' first-time pass rate for Step 1 was almost 98% (47/48). What are St. George's numbers? Better yet, what are St. George's numbers for first-time pass rates for all students ACCEPTED, not just the ones who made it past the first two years and took Step 1. We had two drop-outs during second year so my school's first-time pass rate figured that way would be 94% (47/50).

 

[flindophile]

I am not sure what a "bottom tier" US school would be. I attended a small US MD state school in the midwest that I love and think is excellent but many people might consider it a "bottom tier" school. It is certainly not well-known. My class' first-time pass rate for Step 1 was almost 98% (47/48). What are St. George's numbers? Better yet, what are St. George's numbers for first-time pass rates for all students ACCEPTED, not just the ones who made it past the first two years and took Step 1. We had two drop-outs during second year so my school's first-time pass rate figured that way would be 94% (47/50).

SGU claims to have a first time pass rate of 90% compared to 92% for US and Canadian schools.
http://www.sgu.edu/website/sguwebsi...ics-MedicalSciences.html#FirstTermEntrantsMed

I should point out I don't have any affilation with SGU; however, I believe you are correct that SGU has a higher attrition rate than US schools. I suspect SGU fudges the numbers a bit by defining "First time pass rate" as the percentage of those who take the exam rather than the number accepted. Even so, the numbers hardly suggest that SGU is a diploma mill.

I probably made a mistake making a comparison to US schools because that is NOT the point. Rather, the point is whether SGU grads who cross the finish line are good enough to practice medicine competently. It doesn't matter that their scores are lower than US scores. DO scores are lower than allopathic scores. University of Kentucky is lower than Stanford, etc. Should we close down U of K and the DO schools? The answer depends on outcomes rather than admissions standards.

 

[Meatwad]

SGU claims to have a first time pass rate of 90% compared to 92% for US and Canadian schools.
http://www.sgu.edu/website/sguwebsi...ics-MedicalSciences.html#FirstTermEntrantsMed

I should point out I don't have any affilation with SGU; however, I believe you are correct that SGU has a higher attrition rate than US schools. I suspect SGU fudges the numbers a bit by defining "First time pass rate" as the percentage of those who take the exam rather than the number entering. Even so, the numbers hardly suggest that SGU is a diploma mill.

I probably made a mistake making a comparison to US schools because that is NOT the point. Rather, the point is whether SGU grads who cross the finish line are good enough to practice medicine competently. It doesn't matter that their scores are lower than US scores. DO scores are lower than allopathic scores. University of Kentucky is lower than Stanford, etc. Should we close down U of K and the DO schools? The answer depends on outcomes rather than admissions standards.

I have no vested interest in this debate one way or the other, and I don't know id this has been pointed out already, but the reason the pass rates for Step 1 are so good for the Big 4 Caribbean schools is they give you a diagnostic exam before they allow you to take the actual test. So, if you fail the practice, they don't let you take the real one. As you can see, this would artificially bump up the pass rates. If you let any student who felt they were ready take it, the first time test takers passing rates would be lower.

 

[flindophile]

I have no vested interest in this debate one way or the other, and I don't know id this has been pointed out already, but the reason the pass rates for Step 1 are so good for the Big 4 Caribbean schools is they give you a diagnostic exam before they allow you to take the actual test. So, if you fail the practice, they don't let you take the real one. As you can see, this would artificially bump up the pass rates. If you let any student who felt they were ready take it, the first time test takers passing rates would be lower.

OK, OK. SGU is not nearly as good as US schools. So what? Is there any evidence to suggest that those who have made it through SGU, done clinicals in the US and completed a residency are not competent to practice medicine? That is the question.

 

[Meatwad]

OK, OK. SGU is not nearly as good as US schools. So what? Is there any evidence to suggest that those who have made it through SGU, done clinicals in the US and completed a residency are not competent to practice medicine? That is the question.

No, I'm not trying to imply anything one way or the other; simply make it known that this seems to be the policy schools adopt down there towards the USMLE. Other posters can extrapolate from it what they like.

 

[combatmedic]

SGU claims to have a first time pass rate of 90% compared to 92% for US and Canadian schools.
http://www.sgu.edu/website/sguwebsi...ics-MedicalSciences.html#FirstTermEntrantsMed

I should point out I don't have any affilation with SGU; however, I believe you are correct that SGU has a higher attrition rate than US schools. I suspect SGU fudges the numbers a bit by defining "First time pass rate" as the percentage of those who take the exam rather than the number accepted. Even so, the numbers hardly suggest that SGU is a diploma mill.

I probably made a mistake making a comparison to US schools because that is NOT the point. Rather, the point is whether SGU grads who cross the finish line are good enough to practice medicine competently. It doesn't matter that their scores are lower than US scores. DO scores are lower than allopathic scores. University of Kentucky is lower than Stanford, etc. Should we close down U of K and the DO schools? The answer depends on outcomes rather than admissions standards.

About 50% of Surgery,Radio,Patho and Anesth residents at my hospital are FMGS's and caribbean grads.

 

[Blade28]

I think some schools' Step 1 pass rates are artificially inflated because they only include those students that actually took the test, and don't include all the MS-Is and MS-IIs that have dropped out since matriculation.

 

[8744]

You guys are silly. The first two years of medical school are essentially self-study and it doesn't matter where you go except that at some schools they load you down with a bunch of touchy-feely crap.

 

[TRAMD]

About 50% of Surgery,Radio,Patho and Anesth residents at my hospital are FMGS's and caribbean grads.

This is quite typical for Pathology as it is non-competitive and often overlooked (probably foolishly) by US MDs. Gen Surg and Anesthesia are usually average competitiveness-wise. It would not be atypical for there to be IMGs or carib MDs in situations with poorer programs or exceptional grads. As for Radiology . . . I really doubt that 50% of the residents are IMGs (which does include carib MDs). Radiology is very competitive at pretty much all locations. I would recount the Radiology residents and where they went to school. Maybe you just happen to be where they have the poorest Radiology program in the country.

 

[TRAMD]

You guys are silly. The first two years of medical school are essentially self-study and it doesn't matter where you go except that at some schools they load you down with a bunch of touchy-feely crap.

I agree with this more or less. I think the point is that the differential of the quality of the students accepted to different schools is greater than the differential in the quality of education you receive. Do I think the med school you attend has a lot to do with how competent you will be as a physician: probably not. Do I think that undergrad GPAs and MCAT scores correlate with performance in medical school: definitely. This doesn't mean that someone with a 3.0 and a 24 MCAT can't turn things around and score a 240 on step 1 or that someone with a 3.9 and 32 MCAT (me) never develops good study habits and scores a 215 (also me). These, however, are exceptions and not typical.

 

[PeepshowJohnny]

I'm not a huge fan of the Caribean medical schools, but they do have their use as a "safety net" of sorts. I think anyone who's gone through applying to med school and being in med school knows that the process is flawed, at best.

I've known people who, not only had great scores but also great personalities, bungle the application process. Maybe they freak out on interviews, maybe they mess up the personal statement, maybe they applied late, maybe they just got crappy vindicitive interviewers by bad luck at each place they went, who knows? That'd be bad enough, but its rubbing salt in a wound when you get INTO medical school and stumble across those...how should I put this...questionable admissions. Maybe they've got the smarts but they're a psycho and you wouldn't trust them within 50 meters of a patient. Maybe they're a nice enough guy, but they just don't seem to "get it" and struggle with even the most basic material. It's just a double whammy when you see people who you know would excell be left out and those who flounder get in.

That's why I enjoy the Caribbean success stories, guys who couldn't get into American schools go outside the country and come roaring back. I'm working with one now, guys the darling of the hospital. Students, interns, seniors, attendings, nurses, they all love the guy. He's smart as hell, funny, and he's already got a pretty nice fellowship lined up for himself. It'd have been a crime if this guy hadn't gone into medicine and had been stopped by a faulty admission system.

 

[combatmedic]

This is quite typical for Pathology as it is non-competitive and often overlooked (probably foolishly) by US MDs. Gen Surg and Anesthesia are usually average competitiveness-wise. It would not be atypical for there to be IMGs or carib MDs in situations with poorer programs or exceptional grads. As for Radiology . . . I really doubt that 50% of the residents are IMGs (which does include carib MDs). Radiology is very competitive at pretty much all locations. I would recount the Radiology residents and where they went to school. Maybe you just happen to be where they have the poorest Radiology program in the country.

no sir, beth israel and St.barnabas are known for their reputable radio,surge programs. All i'm saying is it doesn't matter where you go to med school because at the end it all comes down to how you do on your USMLE's and rotations. Everything else is crap.

 

[TRAMD]

no sir, beth israel and St.barnabas are known for their reputable radio,surge programs. All i'm saying is it doesn't matter where you go to med school because at the end it all comes down to how you do on your USMLE's and rotations. Everything else is crap.

Where you go to school is VERY important. Programs have a strong preference for US MD over carib MD and a slight preference for US MD over US DO. There is, of course, also some preference given based on which US MD school you attend. USMLE scores and rotation grades are definitely important. Other very important factors are your letters of recommendation, your interview, audition rotations (which can also hurt you) and a program director knowing or respecting somebody that will put in a good word for you. For certain specialties volunteer work, publications and research may also be important. Perhaps you are thinking of entrance to medical school. MCATs and GPA are definitely the most important factor there. The interview is surprisingly non-important; they just want to make sure you aren't an obvious weirdo doofus. Perhaps these radiology residents completed their clinicals at this site or did an audition rotation?

 

[da8s0859q]

Where you go to school is VERY important.

I'd go with "whether you went to a US-based MD (or DO, arguably) program is important." After grades, boards, LoRs, etc., your school's name is pretty low on the list in grand scheme of things.

$.02, of course.

 

[flindophile]

I'd go with "whether you went to a US-based MD (or DO, arguably) program is important." After grades, boards, LoRs, etc., your school's name is pretty low on the list in grand scheme of things.

$.02, of course.

It is all spelled out here in intricate detail...
http://www.nrmp.org/data/chartingoutcomes2007.pdf