seems just about anyone can get into medical school these days

[amherstguy]

i am frustrated. i am a us medical student attending a top 20 school. all i seem to hear about is the hundreds of kids that go to caribbean school and even abroad to eastern europe to get their md's. they go to places and islands i have never even heard of, then take their usmle's and are able to practice medicine in the states. some students are going right to the caribbean from high school. medicine is a profession of respect, integrity, and standards. if all these students are getting into school abroad, some without even interviews, doesn't this bring the standard of medicine practiced in the US down?? 20 MCAT 3.0 GPA; does this sound like someone you would want to be treated by?? is there any real benefit to even going to a US med school?? in the end the carib grads get jobs- make money, do whatever?? i just dont think the system is fair in rewarding US students who have worked hard to get into US schools. yeah there is a shortage of docs here esspecially pcps, but all the foreign docs dont go to the places there are shortages in, and opt not to even practice pcp fields; instead just oversaturate the cities and residencies. this is just bull ****. appreciate feedback and sorry for the rant.

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[directdoc]

I hear ya.

 

[Toohotinvegas33]

At least he didn't say anything about DO's or do we need a whole new thread for you to rant about?

OP, dont worry there will be plenty of patients for your practice in what ever field you go into.

 

[ubcredfox]

Your post is quite short sighted. I don't believe that your entrance GPA, MCAT, application stats have any real bearing on the quality of doc you become. I think that's much more individually driven. I'm certain that your top 20 US schools churn out their fair share of barely competent physicians every year. I'm sure there are people in your class you wouldn't trust your neighbors dog with.

Furthermore, the US medical education system has the wonderful benefit of being prohibitively expensive, especially in the top 20 private schools. I think there's a number of people from the US that go overseas to pay less. I'm certain this is a reason for some European transfers; I'm unsure of what the prices are like in the caribbean.

And, as I'm sure you know, getting into med school and surviving med school are two very different animals.

 

[Law2Doc]

While I get your (OPs) point, and somewhat agree with you as an abstract concept, I would suggest that, there is more to medicine than MCAT/GPA. From what I have seen/heard, most of the offshore trained folks are not noticeably worse than their US counterparts once they actually get to practice. If someone can overcome their inability to master things in college and actually do okay on the Step exams and rotations and get one of the handful of unclaimed residencies (not all offshore folks who want one get one), then good for them. I think everyone would agree it is a harder road, full of attrition and lower odds plays. Your reward as a US student is to not have to put up with those issues -- pretty much everyone who gets into a US school is going to end up in a US residency. Not so offshore.

 

[WiscDoc]

i am frustrated. i am a us medical student attending a top 20 school. all i seem to hear about is the hundreds of kids that go to caribbean school and even abroad to eastern europe to get their md's. they go to places and islands i have never even heard of, then take their usmle's and are able to practice medicine in the states. some students are going right to the caribbean from high school. medicine is a profession of respect, integrity, and standards. if all these students are getting into school abroad, some without even interviews, doesn't this bring the standard of medicine practiced in the US down?? 20 MCAT 3.0 GPA; does this sound like someone you would want to be treated by?? is there any real benefit to even going to a US med school?? in the end the carib grads get jobs- make money, do whatever?? i just dont think the system is fair in rewarding US students who have worked hard to get into US schools. yeah there is a shortage of docs here esspecially pcps, but all the foreign docs dont go to the places there are shortages in, and opt not to even practice pcp fields; instead just oversaturate the cities and residencies. this is just bull ****. appreciate feedback and sorry for the rant.

Well it is pretty frustrating that many sutdents take the "easy" way out. However, you do have to keep in mind the following:

1- Some of the best foriegn med schools graduate as little 2/3 or less of their originally matriculating students (so the ones that actually survive are those that would have made it into US med schools had they had better luck, PS, grades at the begining of college...etc)

2- IMG are ALWAYS at a disadvantage when it comes to residency placements. (altough mayn of them take as much as a year or 2 years to study for their USMLEs, and we only get 5 weeks/usmle)

3- As a patient, you usually have the choice of which doctor to visit....you could make sure your doctor graduated from a top 20 med school and did his/her residency at a top 20 hosiptal too!!!!!

At the end, it does suck, but I really don't think many people do it as a first option, it is usually a last resort for smart students who for one reason or another could not get into a US med school.

 

[MSKalltheway]

i am frustrated. i am a us medical student attending a top 20 school. all i seem to hear about is the hundreds of kids that go to caribbean school and even abroad to eastern europe to get their md's. they go to places and islands i have never even heard of, then take their usmle's and are able to practice medicine in the states. some students are going right to the caribbean from high school. medicine is a profession of respect, integrity, and standards. if all these students are getting into school abroad, some without even interviews, doesn't this bring the standard of medicine practiced in the US down?? 20 MCAT 3.0 GPA; does this sound like someone you would want to be treated by?? is there any real benefit to even going to a US med school?? in the end the carib grads get jobs- make money, do whatever?? i just dont think the system is fair in rewarding US students who have worked hard to get into US schools. yeah there is a shortage of docs here esspecially pcps, but all the foreign docs dont go to the places there are shortages in, and opt not to even practice pcp fields; instead just oversaturate the cities and residencies. this is just bull ****. appreciate feedback and sorry for the rant.

EASY BRO! Carib schools may have lower admissions standards, and averages, but its well established that they have a harder road than US grads do. I think that US grads are "rewarded" just fine...US grads dont have certain doors closed to them. Its very hard for even well qualified Carib grads to match in competitive residencies. I dont think that should be so, because a qualified doc is a qualified doc, no matter where he/she was educated...

You have to let the anger about this go. You'll likely be trained by a doc that went to a foreign med school at some point and you have to respect what they have been through. To be blunt, a poor MCAT score is a bad predictor of your worth as a clinician. USMLE Step 1 is still not good either, but is better than your college scores. Dude, just make sure you do well, because if you kill it from a top 20 school, no one is going to take any opportunities from you. Remember, you signed up for this! If people are going to the Carib for school and coming back, let them. They are just trying to be a physician, like you. There's more than one way to skin a cat, or a cadaver

 

[45408]

I wouldn't sweat it. If someone lands a US residency, it means that they passed the USMLE, which is no easy task. They may have lagged behind the pack when it came to applying for med school, but apparently they've made up for lost time. Like others said, a LOT of Carib med students fail out (the only one I know who went ended up dropping out). Some people just messed around too much in college but then straightened up their act at a Carib med school. If someone can do that, then I don't see a problem.

 

[makeitstop]

I suggest you transfer to Jamaica, and learn to take eet easy, mon

 

[Sir Toalie]

The last several posts sum it up pretty well in my opinion, though have left a few insights only someone currently attending a Caribbean school can provide...

It is definitely easier to get into a Caribbean school.. ok, that's an understatement: some of the schools here, it seems like literally anyone can get into, but students from these schools will in all likelihood be unable to obtain any residency outside of Family Medicine or possibly IM (so not much to whine about considering there's an enormous shortage of primary care physicians looming on the horizon, and well, someone has to take care of the retiring baby-boomers).

With regards to the more established schools (Ross, AUC, St. George's), these schools have been around long enough and gained enough credibility and respect through the success of their graduates that they're continuously gaining new clinical affiliations with respectable hospitals (both community and academic) and place numerous grads into competitive residencies every match. As was suggested in a previous post, Carib students do have it a lot harder. At least 1/3 of my current class has either failed a couple classes (meaning they'll likely match a year late) or have altogether failed out of medical school. There are no "curves" at my med school.. when someone makes it out of here in one piece, they're more than prepared for the next level.

The breakdown as I see it (and I'm comparing students from my med school with friends from US schools who I regularly out-competed in undergrad goes something like this:

1/3 of students can compete with the best students at ANY US med school
1/3 are your average run-of-the-mill med student who would be average or below average at a US school (basically they "belong" here)
1/3 have no business whatsoever even attempting to become a doctor (they are simply wasting their money, and if they do make it out, their practices are likely to suffer more than they did in med school)

The reason why I can be so sure is that medicine is.., well, medicine. It's the same material and same licensing exam.. though I have no statistics I wouldn't doubt that the top 1/3 of our class easily ends up with a Step 1 average > 230. (Overall, the average last year for students who passed the first time was around a 220... of course, many failed the first time too, so take that stat with a grain of salt).

To the OP, don't be so upset or concerned with your reward... if you continue working at the level that got you into a top 20 US med school then you'll be more than rewarded at the next round of applications (residency).. if you think this is the time for you to just relax and cruise through med school on your way to becoming an all-star doc (ie. this IS your "reward"), you'll be whining even more when a Carib grad gets 30 points higher than you on Step 1, outshines everyone around him during rounds, and ends up getting that residency spot you wanted. (I'm not trying to get a rise out of you.. just trying to make a point).

Success is a journey... we can only judge people by an accomplishment they've made (or lack thereof) by age 22 for so long.. to take it to the next level and get that ultimate "reward", everyone has to earn it.

 

[shivasHeroLike]

i completely disagree with the original poster.

yes its easier to get into med school down there, but that doesn't lower the quality of medical profession.

high standardized test scores (like mcat) doesn't automatically make you a good doctor.

 

[AmoryBlaine]

The OP uses a bit too much vitriol to raise an interesting discussion point. I for one don't really see the Carib grads as "competition" for residency spots. If you are talking about a specialty that is even moderately competitive then no one has the pull of the American MD.

This whole point of "does MCAT score correlate with skill as a physician" is a question that will never be answered. I do see the OPs point when you have someone who got a 2.9 in college, went to an off-shore school, went to an unknown residency program and then refuses to even bear the suggestion that their pedigree might influence their practice.

One of my attendings on Peds was a foreign-MD graduate of a tiny, now-defunct community program X that is basically 2 blocks away from the massive tertiary pediatric center Y with a 500 mile zone of influence. His comment on his training was that "well, people from my program were probably just a little bit better clinically than people from Y." Uhhh, maybe.

 

[Hayden2102]

The OP uses a bit too much vitriol to raise an interesting discussion point. I for one don't really see the Carib grads as "competition" for residency spots. If you are talking about a specialty that is even moderately competitive then no one has the pull of the American MD.

This whole point of "does MCAT score correlate with skill as a physician" is a question that will never be answered. I do see the OPs point when you have someone who got a 2.9 in college, went to an off-shore school, went to an unknown residency program and then refuses to even bear the suggestion that their pedigree might influence their practice.

One of my attendings on Peds was a foreign-MD graduate of a tiny, now-defunct community program X that is basically 2 blocks away from the massive tertiary pediatric center Y with a 500 mile zone of influence. His comment on his training was that "well, people from my program were probably just a little bit better clinically than people from Y." Uhhh, maybe.

Goodness me that's arrogant. Just remember, you aren't the best in the world.

 

[LifetimeDoc]

Goodness me that's arrogant. Just remember, you aren't the best in the world.

True, just because you are trained in the US doesn't automatically make you a better physician. It's a personal thing.
(note: I don't believe the prior poster was saying that US-trained doctors are better)

But, when newly minted MDs are looking for residencies in the USA, USA-trained MDs are given preference over internationally-trained MDs. That's just the way it is.

 

[Law2Doc]

Goodness me that's arrogant. Just remember, you aren't the best in the world.

I think he was saying that, better or not, the US school students basically get the first crack at residency slots, particularly the competitive ones, and everyone else gets what's left over. The Caribbean educated US folks notoriously get most of their slots in the less competitive specialties and in the less desirable locations.

FWIW this thread is about US educated US students as compared to offshore educated US students and the OP's and other posters comments weren't directed to IMGs, if that was what you were concerned about. There are absolutely some great schools and medical education in other parts of the world, designed to provide care to their own citizens. But the caribbean schools are a cottage industry set up to give "second chances" to folks who couldn't get admitted stateside but who still want to become doctors, and have been frequently criticized not just by the OP, but also the President of the AAMC as having questionable educational standards.

 

[GeekDoc]

"yeah there is a shortage of docs here esspecially pcps, but all the foreign docs dont go to the places there are shortages in, and opt not to even practice pcp fields"

This isn't true at all, or is at the least misrepresentative. For starters, there are 30% more residency spots available than U.S. applicants. These spots are typically filled by foreign trained medical graduates. Clearly, if there was a huge oversupply in foreign doctors, the number of residency spots available to them would not be that high.

The second point I'd like to make is that these graduates provide an essential service. They typically do not end up as a park-avenue physician, but rather help alleviate the burden places on staff at inner city hospitals. You seem to equate citys with fully-served-population. This isn't the case at all. There are huge pockets of the poor and improvished that live in the city - that put a great deal of stress on local hospitals. Without the service FMG's provide in inner city hospitals, that population would seek care at institutions that are not equipped to handle them.

Lastly, MCAT+GPA does not equate to excellent physician. Similarily SAT+Extra Curriculars does not make you a good college student. Some people take alternative routes for reasons beyond being academically inept or lazy. (i.e. not everyone can afford the $200,000 tuition costs, and would gladly pay a fraction to achieve their goal and go to school in places like India / Europe)

I write this assuming you are arguing against U.S. citizens going abroad for their medical education, and not against foreign physicians moving here to the U.S. to practice.

 

[Hayden2102]

True, just because you are trained in the US doesn't automatically make you a better physician. It's a personal thing.
(note: I don't believe the prior poster was saying that US-trained doctors are better)

But, when newly minted MDs are looking for residencies in the USA, USA-trained MDs are given preference over internationally-trained MDs. That's just the way it is.

Yes fair enough. It's a bit the same for US-trained applicants in Australian programs.

I think he was saying that, better or not, the US school students basically get the first crack at residency slots, particularly the competitive ones, and everyone else gets what's left over. The Caribbean educated US folks notoriously get most of their slots in the less competitive specialties and in the less desirable locations.

FWIW this thread is about US educated US students as compared to offshore educated US students and the OP's and other posters comments weren't directed to IMGs, if that was what you were concerned about. There are absolutely some great schools and medical education in other parts of the world, designed to provide care to their own citizens. But the caribbean schools are a cottage industry set up to give "second chances" to folks who couldn't get admitted stateside but who still want to become doctors, and have been frequently criticized not just by the OP, but also the President of the AAMC as having questionable educational standards.

Yes, for sure.

 

[gujuDoc]

Keep in mind while there are many FMGs who might not have had good numbers, not every FMG was in an island school for lack of good scores.

I know one person who went to the islands with a 3.5 and 31. He had an interview in a US school but he had gotten sick and wasn't able to reschedule. Then there was the fact that he didn't want to waste another semester so he opted to start in Jan. at one of the island schools. This was in 2006. He had already been in school for 5 years and didn't want to waste more time.

Of the others I know who went to the carribean, one was an international student when she came to our university. Actually her friend was also an international student. So neither could apply to very many places across the country due to lack of permanent residence (i.e. greencard) or citizenship here. They had very high GPAs but due to lack of English being their first language they had poor verbal scores. Does it mean they were idiots? No and if they pass the boards and finish and land a good residency then good for them. It is not like they are going to get the top derm or rad onco spots or top lifestyle specialties in general.

Furthermore, as many people pointed out, many island schools don't provide the same resources to students (i.e. couseling services, academic help) to get a student through the program as they do in the US. So its not like everyone who gets in passes. Only the best of the best make it.

Last but not least, not all FMGs are people who are island grads that couldn't get in a US school. There are several FMGs who are people immigrating from other countries such as India. Those people still have to take and pass the USMLE licensing exams if they wish to be considered for a residency program in the U.S. They still have to compete with U.S. grads and it is still harder for them to get into top programs. So by no means do I think you have anything to worry about.

 

[happy snake]

Furthermore, as many people pointed out, many island schools don't provide the same resources to students (i.e. couseling services, academic help) to get a student through the program as they do in the US. So its not like everyone who gets in passes. Only the best of the best make it.

True. It sets up for strong negative selection against the types that are not as highly motivated and academically/clinically capable. Also, because it's inherently harder for Carribean grads to match into US residencies, it evens out the playing field in a way.

And yes, some of the FMGs have very very impressive scores. Although, I have interacted with a few of them that still can't phrase a proper sentence in English...so that's a slightly mixed bag.

Further, if Carribean MDs and FMG MDs are actually sub-par, they shouldn't pose any problems to someone graduating from top-notch programs in the mainland U.S. But the reality is that they do pose some competition, because some of them are very capable. Overall I think it is good for us, because it adds competition, and competition makes us sharper.

 

[maestro1625]

i am a us medical student attending a top 20 school.

well your member is massive then isn't it?

they go to places and islands i have never even heard of,

is it our fault that amherst students have a poor knowledge of geography?

some students are going right to the caribbean from high school.

india yes; carib, probably not.

medicine is a profession of respect, integrity, and standards.

so is law, but you still get cases like this. http://www.ocregister.com/ocregister/news/local/article_1752800.php

if all these students are getting into school abroad, some without even interviews, doesn't this bring the standard of medicine practiced in the US down?? 20 MCAT 3.0 GPA; does this sound like someone you would want to be treated by?? is there any real benefit to even going to a US med school?? in the end the carib grads get jobs- make money, do whatever?? i just dont think the system is fair in rewarding US students who have worked hard to get into US schools. yeah there is a shortage of docs here esspecially pcps, but all the foreign docs dont go to the places there are shortages in, and opt not to even practice pcp fields; instead just oversaturate the cities and residencies. this is just bull ****. appreciate feedback and sorry for the rant.

yes, and do you know what a clusterf-ck the match system would be if the number of US graduates equaled the number of residency spots?

is common sense not required for "top 20 schools"?

 

[Reimat]

i am frustrated. i am a us medical student attending a top 20 school. all i seem to hear about is the hundreds of kids that go to caribbean school and even abroad to eastern europe to get their md's. they go to places and islands i have never even heard of, then take their usmle's and are able to practice medicine in the states. some students are going right to the caribbean from high school. medicine is a profession of respect, integrity, and standards. if all these students are getting into school abroad, some without even interviews, doesn't this bring the standard of medicine practiced in the US down?? 20 MCAT 3.0 GPA; does this sound like someone you would want to be treated by?? is there any real benefit to even going to a US med school?? in the end the carib grads get jobs- make money, do whatever?? i just dont think the system is fair in rewarding US students who have worked hard to get into US schools. yeah there is a shortage of docs here esspecially pcps, but all the foreign docs dont go to the places there are shortages in, and opt not to even practice pcp fields; instead just oversaturate the cities and residencies. this is just bull ****. appreciate feedback and sorry for the rant.

It's cool to get frustrated and rant - but in the end who really cares? Clearly you've been successful and will continue to be, why can't others also share that success? There's plenty of the pie to go around. The otherside of the coin is that many American students that are at top institutions have had advantages that international students and those at the Caribbean schools haven't had. I'd say a lot of med students have parents who are doctors, lawyers, phds... etc, and having parents who have gone through that all is a huge huge huge advantage compared to people I know in school whose parents didn't even finish college. Anyhow, just my 2 cents

 

[Northerner]

Keep in mind while there are many FMGs who might not have had good numbers, not every FMG was in an island school for lack of good scores.

I know one person who went to the islands with a 3.5 and 31. He had an interview in a US school but he had gotten sick and wasn't able to reschedule. Then there was the fact that he didn't want to waste another semester so he opted to start in Jan. at one of the island schools. This was in 2006. He had already been in school for 5 years and didn't want to waste more time.

Well, of course there are anecdotal individual cases of people who probably could have gotten into a U.S. allopathic school, but the discussion here is IN GENERAL. In general, we're not talking about 3.5/31 students, the average of Caribbean students in admissions and academic performance is far lower than U.S. allopathic students.

Of the others I know who went to the carribean, one was an international student when she came to our university. Actually her friend was also an international student. So neither could apply to very many places across the country due to lack of permanent residence (i.e. greencard) or citizenship here. They had very high GPAs but due to lack of English being their first language they had poor verbal scores. Does it mean they were idiots? No and if they pass the boards and finish and land a good residency then good for them. It is not like they are going to get the top derm or rad onco spots or top lifestyle specialties in general.

International students, again, are another subgroup of Caribbean students that are probably a small minority. However, the fact that they scored poorly on verbal assessments and have difficulty communicating in English, while it certainly doesn't make them idiots, is a significant mark against them. The coursework required to practice medicine in the U.S. is in English. The standardized licensing exams required to practice medicine in the U.S. are in English. The professors and attendings and colleagues they'll practice with will be speaking (for the most part) fluent English and require fluent English on their part. The patients they'll be treating will be speaking (the vast majority) will be speaking and require their physician to speak....you guessed it - English. And I don't know about you, but yes, a thick accent that's hard to understand and/or awkwardness with social/cultural customs can have an impact on the care you receive, and the patients' impression of their care and patient-doctor relationship.

So the conclusion that international students, regardless of their intelligence/suitability for medical practice in general, have barriers to practicing in the U.S. for good reason, is legitimate. Not to mention - is it right to attract away all the best and brightest physicians from their home country that raised and trained them? Now let's not go down the "but I can think of exceptions!" road. Of course there are exceptions.

Last but not least, not all FMGs are people who are island grads that couldn't get in a US school. There are several FMGs who are people immigrating from other countries such as India. Those people still have to take and pass the USMLE licensing exams if they wish to be considered for a residency program in the U.S. They still have to compete with U.S. grads and it is still harder for them to get into top programs. So by no means do I think you have anything to worry about.

Yes, but this discussion is about Caribbean grads, which, for the most part, for whatever reason, are people who could not get into U.S. medical schools.

 

[AngryBaby]

FWIW, I'm a US citizen and will be going to St. George's University in Grenada a week from now. The OP's frustration seems to be borne from ignorance of the situation. As a Caribbean graduate I will be effectively excluded from being competitive for Derm, Plastics, Rads, Ortho, Neuro, and Opth (did I miss a couple?) residencies. Additionally, I will have to have better clinical grades/Step 1 scores to even have a chance at being as competitive with the other specialties if/when going up against a US graduate.

My understanding is that there are many students in the Caribbean who shouldn't be in med school, and those very rarely make it through. However that's not the case for all students/schools over there. Schools like Ross, SGU, AUC, and Saba have solid match lists every year. I believe I'll get a good education at SGU, like anything else I'll get out of it what I put into it. My truncated, personal story is I'm a 2nd career guy, never took any sciences and had to do post-bacc while simultaneously preparing for the birth of my first child, take care of our finances, working all weekend, etc, etc. I scored reasonably well in my post-bacc courses and on the MCAT (average scores for both with regards to accepted US medical students), however couldn't secure more than 1 interview/yr. On my 3rd cycle I found out about a few of the good schools in the Caribbean and decided that I could either continue to enhance my app. to get into a state school or apply and (if I was accepted) start med school now. As a 29 yr old with a family, losing more time/income becomes an important part of the decision. From my "It's Not Fair!!" file, I knew undergrad students with lower scores/grades than me that were accepted to various schools when I couldn't even get an interview.

Moving to an island away from friends/family/America is difficult. Additionally I'm paying a premium via federal US loans and know that I'll have to be better than any other US graduate applying for whatever specialty I choose to pursue. These schools give us an opportunity to practice medicine, which we must be extremely motivated to do otherwise we likely wouldn't even be here in the first place given all the hardships associated with it.

 

[-Goose-]

FWIW, I'm a US citizen and will be going to St. George's University in Grenada a week from now. The OP's frustration seems to be borne from ignorance of the situation. As a Caribbean graduate I will be effectively excluded from being competitive for Derm, Plastics, Rads, Ortho, Neuro, and Opth (did I miss a couple?) residencies. Additionally, I will have to have better clinical grades/Step 1 scores to even have a chance at being as competitive with the other specialties if/when going up against a US graduate.

My understanding is that there are many students in the Caribbean who shouldn't be in med school, and those very rarely make it through. However that's not the case for all students/schools over there. Schools like Ross, SGU, AUC, and Saba have solid match lists every year. I believe I'll get a good education at SGU, like anything else I'll get out of it what I put into it. My truncated, personal story is I'm a 2nd career guy, never took any sciences and had to do post-bacc while simultaneously preparing for the birth of my first child, take care of our finances, working all weekend, etc, etc. I scored reasonably well in my post-bacc courses and on the MCAT (average scores for both with regards to accepted US medical students), however couldn't secure more than 1 interview/yr. On my 3rd cycle I found out about a few of the good schools in the Caribbean and decided that I could either continue to enhance my app. to get into a state school or apply and (if I was accepted) start med school now. As a 29 yr old with a family, losing more time/income becomes an important part of the decision. From my "It's Not Fair!!" file, I knew undergrad students with lower scores/grades than me that were accepted to various schools when I couldn't even get an interview.

Moving to an island away from friends/family/America is difficult. Additionally I'm paying a premium via federal US loans and know that I'll have to be better than any other US graduate applying for whatever specialty I choose to pursue. These schools give us an opportunity to practice medicine, which we must be extremely motivated to do otherwise we likely wouldn't even be here in the first place given all the hardships associated with it.

Sounds like you've got a great attitude about everything. I commend you for your conviction to become a doctor. Best of luck.

I think SGU is the one exception to the rule of sub-par educational experiences to be found in the carribean. They seem to have their act together moreso than the others.

 

[AnthonyNY]

Sounds like you've got a great attitude about everything. I commend you for your conviction to become a doctor. Best of luck.

I think SGU is the one exception to the rule of sub-par educational experiences to be found in the carribean. They seem to have their act together moreso than the others.

I agree that SGU is one of the better programs, though I am, admittedly, going on informal evidence. The son of one of my undergrad professors went to SGU and, having met him once, I base my opinions of SGU on what he had to say to me about the school and the people there.

BTW he's a dermatologist. Yes, he's in derm and he went to SGU - so, dont think you are "effectively excluded" from certain specialties, AngryBaby. good luck!

 

[RxnMan]

i am frustrated. i am a us medical student attending a top 20 school. all i seem to hear about is the hundreds of kids that go to caribbean school and even abroad to eastern europe to get their md's. they go to places and islands i have never even heard of, then take their usmle's and are able to practice medicine in the states. some students are going right to the caribbean from high school. medicine is a profession of respect, integrity, and standards. if all these students are getting into school abroad, some without even interviews, doesn't this bring the standard of medicine practiced in the US down?? 20 MCAT 3.0 GPA; does this sound like someone you would want to be treated by?? is there any real benefit to even going to a US med school?? in the end the carib grads get jobs- make money, do whatever?? i just dont think the system is fair in rewarding US students who have worked hard to get into US schools. yeah there is a shortage of docs here esspecially pcps, but all the foreign docs dont go to the places there are shortages in, and opt not to even practice pcp fields; instead just oversaturate the cities and residencies. this is just bull ****. appreciate feedback and sorry for the rant.

What about DOs? How does the expansion of DO schools fit into this? What about "lower-tier" MD schools? Those chumps couldn't get into Harvard, so they obviously don't deserve to take a residency spot that you might be interested in

OP, don't worry about other people. If they're as competitive in the Match as you are, then there's nothing you can do about it except work harder on yourself. Forget about what other people are doing, and concentrate on being the best doc you can be. What'll take you farther is how well you play with others.

 

[Long Dong]

Yeah they let me in. So if a guy like me can get in they'll let anyone in.

 

[TopDocChick]

What is the view of going to schools in other countries- like technion in israel? My friend is applying there and says it has alliances with johns hopkins. Are residencies in the US harder to find for students of american schools in other countries?

 

[Law2Doc]

What is the view of going to schools in other countries- like technion in israel? My friend is applying there and says it has alliances with johns hopkins. Are residencies in the US harder to find for students of american schools in other countries?

I couldn't tell you where they fit in the hierarchy, but I think it is undeniable that if you plan to practice in the US, you hit the fewest hurdles and have the easiest time getting your dream residency if you go to school in the US.

 

[Miami_med]

Goodness me that's arrogant. Just remember, you aren't the best in the world.

I wouldn't get too offended, most of the rest of the world won't even look at grads from outside the country until all of their own have spots. The US is unique in letting any foreign grad compete with their own. I think it's a good thing. It has nothing to do with quality and everything to do with turf and politics.

At my home institution, we get some of the best residents from around the world and are extremely IMG friendly. One of our first year OB residents was the chief of MFM at a medical school in Costa Rica before coming to the US and starting again as an intern. As a practical matter though, he probably still wouldn't have gotten that spot over a good applicant from Harvard. This isn't because Harvard guy is better, but because AMGs are given preference.

 

[soonereng]

Yeah they let me in. So if a guy like me can get in they'll let anyone in.

Best reply in the whole thread...sometimes we take ourselves too seriously.

 

[DickyV]

Yeah they let me in. So if a guy like me can get in they'll let anyone in.

Yeah. I hear that your LOR from grandpa wasn't so great after you misplaced his au-to-mo-bile.

I have to echo the sentiment, though.

 

[TopDocChick]

I couldn't tell you where they fit in the hierarchy, but I think it is undeniable that if you plan to practice in the US, you hit the fewest hurdles and have the easiest time getting your dream residency if you go to school in the US.

We are all so focused on medical schools, residencies, our future (me included) but my friend is so much more chilled out and just wants to live in Israel. She is very smart too and could definitely be a candidate for a US medical school, just she has no interest. I hope she doesn't regret it down the road, but she seems so peaceful about her decision. Do some of the Caribbean folk pick the Caribbean just to be in a nice place for 4 years? I almost thought of applying in Mexico because my husband's company just opened a branch there and I thought that it would be nice if he could continue his job while I'm in med school. I decided against it for all the reasons I stated in the first sentence. This is a rambling due to my lack of coffee and almost dinner time. I guess my point is that maybe some ppl choose med schools out of the country for other reasons and therefore should not be viewed as inferior if they choose that path. Perhaps they didn't even try for the US ones for whatever reasons.

 

[Northerner]

We are all so focused on medical schools, residencies, our future (me included) but my friend is so much more chilled out and just wants to live in Israel. She is very smart too and could definitely be a candidate for a US medical school, just she has no interest. I hope she doesn't regret it down the road, but she seems so peaceful about her decision. Do some of the Caribbean folk pick the Caribbean just to be in a nice place for 4 years? I almost thought of applying in Mexico because my husband's company just opened a branch there and I thought that it would be nice if he could continue his job while I'm in med school. I decided against it for all the reasons I stated in the first sentence. This is a rambling due to my lack of coffee and almost dinner time. I guess my point is that maybe some ppl choose med schools out of the country for other reasons and therefore should not be viewed as inferior if they choose that path. Perhaps they didn't even try for the US ones for whatever reasons.

As was said before, there are rare legitimate exceptions to the rule that caribbean grads couldn't get into U.S. medical schools. Since your own personal policy on judging people should be to do so based on their own character, do so when appropriate. But just think about whether or not there is (and should be) a standard for medical education, or whether we're so fixated on giving people the benefit of every doubt, serious or not, that we accept any level of achievement and compromise to become a doctor.

Not to be coarse, but there are plenty of other respectable options for people who can't get into allopathic medical school in this country but want to be in healthcare. Podiatry school, DO school (just relax, let's allow that they're equivalent but DO admission is a bit easier), PT school, PA school, NP school, nursing school, etc.

The short answer to your question, though, is NO, people are not going to the caribbean for medical school for the nice weather..

 

[shivasHeroLike]

i say if you can pass the boards then you're as qualified as anyone else

end of discussion.

 

[AngryBaby]

First of all, thanks for the wishes Goose and Anthony. I appreciate your kind words. Now with regards to a couple of the later posts:

Do some of the Caribbean folk pick the Caribbean just to be in a nice place for 4 years?

No, no, no. I would be highly surprised if there were even a single student in the Caribbean that wanted to go there first for a number of reasons including what I posted above (which just scratches the surface) and what's quoted below.

As was said before, there are rare legitimate exceptions to the rule that caribbean grads couldn't get into U.S. medical schools. Since your own personal policy on judging people should be to do so based on their own character, do so when appropriate. But just think about whether or not there is (and should be) a standard for medical education, or whether we're so fixated on giving people the benefit of every doubt, serious or not, that we accept any level of achievement and compromise to become a doctor.

Not to be coarse, but there are plenty of other respectable options for people who can't get into allopathic medical school in this country but want to be in healthcare. Podiatry school, DO school (just relax, let's allow that they're equivalent but DO admission is a bit easier), PT school, PA school, NP school, nursing school, etc.

The short answer to your question, though, is NO, people are not going to the caribbean for medical school for the nice weather..

That quote of yours is pretty insulting, and I'm not referring to Caribbean students like myself. For you to assume that all DOs, PAs, nurses, PTs, etc want to be physicians but can't shows, like virtually all blanket statements, a lack of understanding. However I'd hate to turn this thread into one of those threads. I will say that regardless of where one has trained for their undergraduate medical education, we all have to take the same board exams to prove who is/isn't capable of practicing in the US. If you don't think an IMG/FMG can be a capable physician, no one's twisting your arm to send them referrals.

 

[Northerner]

That quote of yours is pretty insulting, and I'm not referring to Caribbean students like myself. For you to assume that all DOs, PAs, nurses, PTs, etc want to be physicians but can't shows, like virtually all blanket statements, a lack of understanding. However I'd hate to turn this thread into one of those threads. I will say that regardless of where one has trained for their undergraduate medical education, we all have to take the same board exams to prove who is/isn't capable of practicing in the US. If you don't think an IMG/FMG can be a capable physician, no one's twisting your arm to send them referrals.

I never said all DO's, PA's, nurses, PT's want to be physicians (and DO's will be). I merely pointed out that since 50% of applicants don't get into a U.S. allopathic medical school, there are other options for those 8,000 people every year. While I can't back this up with any numbers, there are lots of people who initially....considered....medical school who then ended up in another health profession.

I also never said an IMG/FMG cannot be a capable physician. I said at some point, we have to have a cutoff on standards. If an IMG/FMG were to look the same on paper as an AMG, the only thought in the residency director's mind should be - am I familiar with this person's institution and am I comfortable with their education/training experience? Their board scores may anecdotally speak to the comparability of their school to known institutional standards, but the lack of LCME affiliation is, like it or not, a red flag.

If you disagree with my position that YES, the structure and integrity of your medical school education matters and just the fact that you take the same licensing exams does not make you a doctor, then I'd be interested in hearing why we need medical schools at all. Why we need anything but a bunch of Step I review books and everyone's SOLEMN WORD that they're getting a good medical education. There's a reason accrediting bodies exist.

 

[AngryBaby]

I never said all DO's, PA's, nurses, PT's want to be physicians (and DO's will be). I merely pointed out that since 50% of applicants don't get into a U.S. allopathic medical school, there are other options for those 8,000 people every year. While I can't back this up with any numbers, there are lots of people who initially....considered....medical school who then ended up in another health profession.

Agreed

I also never said an IMG/FMG cannot be a capable physician. I said at some point, we have to have a cutoff on standards. If an IMG/FMG were to look the same on paper as an AMG, the only thought in the residency director's mind should be - am I familiar with this person's institution and am I comfortable with their education/training experience? Their board scores may anecdotally speak to the comparability of their school to known institutional standards, but the lack of LCME affiliation is, like it or not, a red flag.

I'm not sure what you're saying regarding the "cutoff on standards" for practicing medicine. Your last post expressed concern about perhaps a lack of standards for IMG/FMGs being licensed in this country?

Also LCME's jurisdiction for accreditation is the US, Canada and Puerto Rico (though it may include the US Virgin Islands in the future). No foreign school outside of Canada can be awarded LCME approval so again I'm not sure what you're saying there. If you mean to say US students that don't attend US schools should raise a red flag, then I have not problem with that. Heck, even if you've been practicing for several years and don't want anything to do with IMG/FMGs that's your prerogative. However what's most important to many in the field is the competency of the physician/nurse/PT in question.

If you want to look down your nose at foreign graduates then that's your business, it's not going to bother me at all unless we have to work side-by-side. Again, though, I'm not sure if that's what you're inferring.

If you disagree with my position that YES, the structure and integrity of your medical school education matters and just the fact that you take the same licensing exams does not make you a doctor, then I'd be interested in hearing why we need medical schools at all. Why we need anything but a bunch of Step I review books and everyone's SOLEMN WORD that they're getting a good medical education. There's a reason accrediting bodies exist.

I never said that the "integrity" of one's undergraduate medical education didn't matter. I'm not sure where that came from but I assure you that is not my stance, quite the opposite actually.

For some reason or another I might be misinterpreting your posts, please correct me if so.

 

[Yehosh]

What is the view of going to schools in other countries- like technion in israel? My friend is applying there and says it has alliances with johns hopkins. Are residencies in the US harder to find for students of american schools in other countries?

Technion, Sackler and Ben Gurion are all affilicated with US medical schools (I think Ben Gurion is with Columbia and Sackler with NY state). But I'm not sure if this helps when applying for residencies in the US.

Have you looked at their matching lists? my guess is that would be your chance of finding an accurate answer to your question.

 

[Northerner]

I'm not sure what you're saying regarding the "cutoff on standards" for practicing medicine. Your last post expressed concern about perhaps a lack of standards for IMG/FMGs being licensed in this country?

I may have been confusing in my points, so I'll just apologize and clarify.

My point was that there is a standard for the privilege to practice medicine in this country, and IMG/FMGs have to go to extra lengths to prove their education has been on par with their U.S. counterparts, and that this is a good thing. The standards should not be relaxed for anyone, nor should benefit of the doubt be granted to anyone based on anything but hard evidence.

Also LCME's jurisdiction for accreditation is the US, Canada and Puerto Rico (though it may include the US Virgin Islands in the future). No foreign school outside of Canada can be awarded LCME approval so again I'm not sure what you're saying there. If you mean to say US students that don't attend US schools should raise a red flag, then I have not problem with that. Heck, even if you've been practicing for several years and don't want anything to do with IMG/FMGs that's your prerogative. However what's most important to many in the field is the competency of the physician/nurse/PT in question.

Yes, but that IS the U.S. accrediting body, and that's the standard we use. When a U.S. allopathic medical school falters in any way, they are put on probation. They're the body that keeps our education in check. But actually, if what you're saying is that there should be an international accrediting body that verifies comparable education standards, etc., that's an interesting idea and I like it. Because my default perspective isn't "everyone outside of the U.S. is getting an inferior education" (though I'm proud of the medical education the U.S. provides), but rather a conservative view graduates from schools outside of our accrediting bodies' auspices should be scrutinized. Fairly.

If you want to look down your nose at foreign graduates then that's your business, it's not going to bother me at all unless we have to work side-by-side. Again, though, I'm not sure if that's what you're inferring.

No, I have no business doing that. Though the stigma associated with a caribbean medical degree will continue to exist and I think you'll agree at least in part for a legitimate reason, I think having the view that anyone's degree is inferior when you're on the same level is ludicrous. For what it's worth, I have a few friends in caribbean medical schools and I really have no doubt their success there is as well-earned as anyone's here, and will/should translate into the realization of their goals....rightfully so. I'd be proud to work side-by-side any physician who represents our profession well, and I couldn't care less (and wouldn't ask) where they went to school.

 

[GreenShirt]

What arrogance!

First off, don't forget that plenty of people with 30+ MCAT and 3.4-3.5 GPAs don't get into American Medical schools every year. Do you think people w/ these stats are idiots? Where do you think they turn to when they get rejected. Not all American FMGs received a 14 MCAT.

Second, in the case of Eastern European countries, you're speaking of Universities that have been around for many centuries more than the US has existed. They have produced scientists such as Copernicus and Marie Curie. Quite a few of the graduates from these programs go on to be chief resident of their program.

Finally, OP remember as you attend your Top 20 med school, that there are about 500 students sitting at Top 5 universities w/ 40+ MCAT and 3.96 GPAs wondering how the hell they let Top 20 "slackers" into medical school.

And don't worry too much about the FMGs. We have something called Board exams in the US. If you don't pass a certain standard, they don't practice.

Stop worrying about how much harder you work then everybody else in the world and worry about the future patients who will depend on you.

 

[AmoryBlaine]

Goodness me that's arrogant. Just remember, you aren't the best in the world.

I didn't make myself clear. As a future doctor I recognize that Carib grads may very well be equal to me clinically. As a participant in the Match with decent stats, I am not really "in competition" with FMGs. I don't really think that's an arrogant comment, it's just a statement of fact.

 

[AngryBaby]

My point was that there is a standard for the privilege to practice medicine in this country, and IMG/FMGs have to go to extra lengths to prove their education has been on par with their U.S. counterparts, and that this is a good thing. The standards should not be relaxed for anyone, nor should benefit of the doubt be granted to anyone based on anything but hard evidence.

Then I agree 100%. The extra forms I'll have to fill out as an IMG applying for licensure are specifically to make sure that our rotations were performed at appropriate sites, in my case greenbook sites. I agree this is critical.

Yes, but that IS the U.S. accrediting body, and that's the standard we use. When a U.S. allopathic medical school falters in any way, they are put on probation. They're the body that keeps our education in check. But actually, if what you're saying is that there should be an international accrediting body that verifies comparable education standards, etc., that's an interesting idea and I like it. Because my default perspective isn't "everyone outside of the U.S. is getting an inferior education" (though I'm proud of the medical education the U.S. provides), but rather a conservative view graduates from schools outside of our accrediting bodies' auspices should be scrutinized. Fairly.

Umm, no that's not what I was saying but I think it's a very good idea. I was actually trying to ask what you meant in your previous post when you said that anyone not attending an LCME accredited school should raise a red flag. And I just realized what you were saying...again I agree. However I don't mind taking credit for your good idea if you reeeeallly want me to

No, I have no business doing that. Though the stigma associated with a caribbean medical degree will continue to exist and I think you'll agree at least in part for a legitimate reason, I think having the view that anyone's degree is inferior when you're on the same level is ludicrous.

Again I must, at the risk of boring the gallery, agree. There are actually far more Caribbean medical schools than I was initially aware of and these schools certainly fit the bill regarding "iffy" education. I certainly don't have a problem with the extra scrutiny that comes with getting an offshore/overseas medical education. Not only is it necessary for the sake of our (the US's) standard of care, but on a personal level it isn't going to stop a legitimate IMG such as myself (in 4 years) from gaining licensure. The stigma of going to a Caribbean med school continues in part because of the aforementioned schools. That being said if the prestige of being a doctor is what was driving me to practice medicine then there's no way I (or anyone else) should be going to the Caribbean.

So I guess we agree on most (all??) of it.

EDIT: I threw in that emoticon in an effort to make sure my sarcastic, and probably not funny, joke was understood as such. I found it very difficult to include a "smiley face" in my post as I am certainly not one to go around writing these things. I feel I should earn points for the attempt and simultaneously should not be subjected to snickering or condescending tones because of its inclusion.

Thank you

 

[Northerner]

Then I agree 100%. The extra forms I'll have to fill out as an IMG applying for licensure are specifically to make sure that our rotations were performed at appropriate sites, in my case greenbook sites. I agree this is critical.

Umm, no that's not what I was saying but I think it's a very good idea. I was actually trying to ask what you meant in your previous post when you said that anyone not attending an LCME accredited school should raise a red flag. And I just realized what you were saying...again I agree. However I don't mind taking credit for your good idea if you reeeeallly want me to


Again I must, at the risk of boring the gallery, agree. There are actually far more Caribbean medical schools than I was initially aware of and these schools certainly fit the bill regarding "iffy" education. I certainly don't have a problem with the extra scrutiny that comes with getting an offshore/overseas medical education. Not only is it necessary for the sake of our (the US's) standard of care, but on a personal level it isn't going to stop a legitimate IMG such as myself (in 4 years) from gaining licensure. The stigma of going to a Caribbean med school continues in part because of the aforementioned schools. That being said if the prestige of being a doctor is what was driving me to practice medicine then there's no way I (or anyone else) should be going to the Caribbean.

So I guess we agree on most (all??) of it.

EDIT: I threw in that emoticon in an effort to make sure my sarcastic, and probably not funny, joke was understood as such. I found it very difficult to include a "smiley face" in my post as I am certainly not one to go around writing these things. I feel I should earn points for the attempt and simultaneously should not be subjected to snickering or condescending tones because of its inclusion.

Thank you

Cool. Let's make out.

 

[No1 Pusher]

Some people take alternative routes for reasons beyond being academically inept or lazy. (i.e. not everyone can afford the $200,000 tuition costs, and would gladly pay a fraction to achieve their goal and go to school in places like India / Europe)

Exactly.

I myself prefer to get my MD outside the U.S to a country like the Philippines. Going to medical school in the Philippines (all Philippine med schools instruct in English) is extremely cheap compared to American schools. On average, a student would pay about U.S. $5,000-10,000 dollars for a whole year. Of course, you have to include living expenses such as apartment rent, books, supplies, and transportation. It would be about less than twenty thousand dollars a year total. In the U.S., a typical year at a private medical school would be $30,000 tuition and $15,000 living expenses. This is a savings of more than $25,000.

 

[DocBR]

Exactly.

I myself prefer to get my MD outside the U.S to a country like the Philippines. Going to medical school in the Philippines (all Philippine med schools instruct in English) is extremely cheap compared to American schools. On average, a student would pay about U.S. $5,000-10,000 dollars for a whole year. Of course, you have to include living expenses such as apartment rent, books, supplies, and transportation. It would be about less than twenty thousand dollars a year total. In the U.S., a typical year at a private medical school would be $30,000 tuition and $15,000 living expenses. This is a savings of more than $25,000.

The cheap tuition might be a plus at first, but you have to consider the opportunity cost of a year in 5th pathway. That could mean 1 less year working, so while you may have saved 100k in going IMG, you lose a year of time in practice.

 

[8744]

i am frustrated. i am a us medical student attending a top 20 school. all i seem to hear about is the hundreds of kids that go to caribbean school and even abroad to eastern europe to get their md's. they go to places and islands i have never even heard of, then take their usmle's and are able to practice medicine in the states. some students are going right to the caribbean from high school. medicine is a profession of respect, integrity, and standards. if all these students are getting into school abroad, some without even interviews, doesn't this bring the standard of medicine practiced in the US down?? 20 MCAT 3.0 GPA; does this sound like someone you would want to be treated by?? is there any real benefit to even going to a US med school?? in the end the carib grads get jobs- make money, do whatever?? i just dont think the system is fair in rewarding US students who have worked hard to get into US schools. yeah there is a shortage of docs here esspecially pcps, but all the foreign docs dont go to the places there are shortages in, and opt not to even practice pcp fields; instead just oversaturate the cities and residencies. this is just bull ****. appreciate feedback and sorry for the rant.

Oh you poor, poor, misguided fool. Stand by to have your preconceived notions bayoneted and left to die with their entrails roasting on the hot sand.

 

[Hayden2102]

Panda I think I've said it before, but I love you.

 

[AngryBaby]

Cool. Let's make out.

OK but only a little, my wife's around somewhere.

 

[flumazenil]

shouldnt this be in the pre-med forum?
and shouldnt the original poster be in law or buisness school?