Seeking Advice (cali resident, mcat = 26 O, bcpm gpa = 3.6, cum = 3.65)

[mjmanprav]

Hi everybody...

I'm new here, so hello to you all. I'm in a peculiar situation right now and I thought I'd seek out advice from the people here as its such a good resource.

So I applied for med schools for entrance during this Fall 2007 and have since only interviewed at one place. I'm scared that I won't get into that one school and I'm really confused as to what I should do during the next application year should I not get into that one school. First, let me give you guys some background info:

My primary was finally approved by around Aug. 31st (turned it in on july 30th or so). Here's some of my stats:

BS Biology, 2005
Cali Resident
Race: Asian Indian
Lower tier UC school undergrad
Cum gpa: 3.65 (upward increase every year: 2.95, 3.74, 3.88, 4.0)
BCPM gpa: 3.60 (upward increase: 2.76, 3.69, 3.96, 4.0)
Mcat: Took it twice: 1st try = 24P (6 VR, 8 PS, 10 BS), 2nd try = 26O (8VR, 9PS, 9 BS) during April and Aug of 2005

Extra Cirrics:
2 years of ER volunteering during undergrad
Health careers club, 2 years
Martial Arts club, 2 years
About a year of research, no publications
Medical Intern in India - 2 months (2006)
Medical missions trip in Nicaragua - 2 weeks (2006)
Intramural Basketball - 4 yrs
Math & Science Teacher/Tutor (since 2005 - present)
Languages: Spanish, Hindi
Good LOR's (from what I know)

I applied to basically all the schools in Cali (except loma linda), a bunch in New York, chicago, and miami. I only applied to about 20 schools in all. However, I didn't receive a single secondary app from any of the UC's (my top choice schools). I'm thinking I should've probably applied with a wider net.

I graduated in 2005, taking time off from school to travel and think about my future. I took the mcat twice, not really putting enough time into the mcats b/c I wasn't sure if I wanted to go to med school. However, after volunteering as a med intern in India last year, I decided to apply.

Obviously, the weakpoint in my app is the mcat, which I MUST retake, should I not get into that one school I interviewed at. At this point however, I probably can't take it until at the earliest mid july b/c I really want to put in all the time and effort this time. I think I also should've turned in my app on June 1st. However, I'm a little scared that if I decide to retake the mcat in mid july / early august, will that hurt my chances of getting interviews because it might delay my application??? At this point I really don't have a choice b/c it's already almost early April. I've also been shadowing a doctor for a while so I could probably get another letter from him for the next time I apply.

I'm also debating what I should do with the next year should I not get in. I've applied for a couple master's programs. If I choose to do a master's, will it even be of help to me for my med school apps? I'm reading around these forums that med schools don't care if you are currently in a master's and that they really factor it into your app only once you have it completed. Will doing a master's really be of use to me?

There are 2 master's programs I'm considering (due to proximity, cost, etc). 1) ucla program in physiology - takes 2 years or 2) a cal state university masters in Biology (normally takes around 1.5 years to complete). Which one would you guys recommend?

I'm also reading around about SMP programs. These programs seem to work, but my only problem w/ it is the cost and the distance (I'd have to move away from home). What would be better, the SMP or a master's? Or perhaps I should do some more research in the meantime (NIH maybe..?). I was also considering going abroad to Spain and doing something..not sure though.

Man, this post is getting seriously long and I apologize. I'm just really lost right now and I desperately need some advice. Any thoughts on what I should do ? Any help would be greatly appreciated !

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[Catatonic]

Hi mjmanprav,

I'm not sure whether a Master's program will help you or not, but there is a year-long, non-degree conferring program at UCSD. It's a good way to improve your science GPA without having to invest more than a year's time.

http://www-biology.ucsd.edu/grad/other_nondegree.html

For the MCAT, I think there is an option to have your score immediately released to the schools (you should check on this), but it's risky and you should only do this if you're confident. This may speed up the process a little, but you're application is still going to be delayed a bit.

I hope this helps. Good luck on the MCAT and the application!

 

[AtreyuRocks]

Hey,

Well you are at least on the right track with re-taking the MCAT. My first suggestion would be to apply for 2009, if this is not already on your agenda. The reason I say this is because I feel too many people rush the application process and do not really take the time to strengthen their application.

If you are looking to apply for 2008, make sure you are able to pinpoint at least one significant change in your application aside from a potential increase in your MCAT score.

I think your GPA is fine, and you do not necessarily need to do a Master's program. What are your interests? This time between application cycles is a great way for you to strengthen your app whether it be with a master's program, more clinical experience, research, etc. All of those are fine... but for now I would concentrate on studying and getting that MCAT up. Once your MCAT score is solid, you will have a better idea of how you should proceed.

Again, I don't suggest applying for 2008 (As you mentioned it is already April). With an unknown MCAT score, and your current GPA, applying early in the cycle could really be a benefit to you! If medicine is what you want to do, one extra year won't hurt. IMO, I think waiting for 2009 could make a world of difference. good luck

EDIT: I am also from CA... if you are hell bent on getting into a CA school, then yes, you should get your GPA up. Otherwise, check out my mdapps cause I wasn't exactly a "stellar candidate".... PM me if need be

 

[kuangwchang]

From your scores that you've posted your GPA is good enough to get into med school, I don't think a Masters Program would do THAT much for you unless you're trying to get into a top school or those crazy competitive CA schools. The weakest point as you know is the MCAT. When I read your post that was the first thing I saw, 26 isn't bad, but it's not going to make you stand out in a good way. I think that if you can pull that 26 up to a 30 you're a sure in. As for the year off, if you don't go to a Masters program for sure get a job in the medical field. Your interviewers are going to expect you to have stayed active in the medical field. Jobs in hospitals are relatively easy to get, or work at a private clinic, just basically stay active.

 

[Tired Pigeon]

A master's program is probably not a good use of your time or money. Bottom line is you need a better MCAT, and that's where your efforts should be focused.

Also, applying early and broadly in the next round will obviously help.

Good luck to you.

 

[relentless11]

MCAT MCAT MCAT...thats the biggest factor playing against the OP here. Although someone above stated that a 26 isn't bad, and it certainly isn't since that is "average" among MCAT test takers. However its NOT average among those admitted to medical school, which nationally is a 30, and among the UC's is a 33-34. Being a science major, one should score 9's and 10's on both science sections. Verbal should be at least a 9 to be competitive among the UC's. As always the higher the better. Therefore one should be scoring 30+.

Remember that UC's screen undergrad GPA and MCAT. The MCAT cut-off is usually 24-26, so you might just missed it. However its entirely possible that they have a sliding scale too, so if more people apply with higher MCAT scores, you can fall out as well. Other factors to look into would be your personal statement. That alone can knock you out of the process. If you don't meet any one of these criteria, then you don't get a secondary at the UCs.

I am not concerned with the OPs GPA, since its respectable among the UC system. Again, the MCAT score appears to be the most obvious handicap here. The question I propose now is how confident is the OP in improving his/her score? Statistically speaking, it is very hard to improve the MCAT score, especially the verbal reasoning score. Given this will be the 3rd time the OP will be taking the MCAT, its not looking too good. Anyone who has taken the MCAT can vouch for this. Verbal reasoning skills is something you gain over a life time....not something you can study for.

I agree that the OP should be "productive" during their year off. Whether it be in a masters program or some field they are interested in. In the end, its a numbers game, and its weighted towards undergrad GPA and MCAT scores. All the experience in the world may not overcome deficiencies in GPA/MCAT. From my own experience, I have found it easier to maintain a 4.0 GPA over a 2 year period than trying to go up 1 point on the verbal reasoning section. It was like pulling teeth to get it to a 10 on the real exam. Its possible though.

 

[mjmanprav]

Hi mjmanprav,

I'm not sure whether a Master's program will help you or not, but there is a year-long, non-degree conferring program at UCSD. It's a good way to improve your science GPA without having to invest more than a year's time.

http://www-biology.ucsd.edu/grad/other_nondegree.html

For the MCAT, I think there is an option to have your score immediately released to the schools (you should check on this), but it's risky and you should only do this if you're confident. This may speed up the process a little, but you're application is still going to be delayed a bit.

I hope this helps. Good luck on the MCAT and the application!

Hey thanks, I'd never have even known about this program. My only problem w/ it is that it doesn't grant you a degree....have you heard anything about this program and if it improves people's chances of getting in?

 

[mjmanprav]

Hey,

Well you are at least on the right track with re-taking the MCAT. My first suggestion would be to apply for 2009, if this is not already on your agenda. The reason I say this is because I feel too many people rush the application process and do not really take the time to strengthen their application.

If you are looking to apply for 2008, make sure you are able to pinpoint at least one significant change in your application aside from a potential increase in your MCAT score.

I think your GPA is fine, and you do not necessarily need to do a Master's program. What are your interests? This time between application cycles is a great way for you to strengthen your app whether it be with a master's program, more clinical experience, research, etc. All of those are fine... but for now I would concentrate on studying and getting that MCAT up. Once your MCAT score is solid, you will have a better idea of how you should proceed.

Again, I don't suggest applying for 2008 (As you mentioned it is already April). With an unknown MCAT score, and your current GPA, applying early in the cycle could really be a benefit to you! If medicine is what you want to do, one extra year won't hurt. IMO, I think waiting for 2009 could make a world of difference. good luck

EDIT: I am also from CA... if you are hell bent on getting into a CA school, then yes, you should get your GPA up. Otherwise, check out my mdapps cause I wasn't exactly a "stellar candidate".... PM me if need be

You're right, applying for the 2009 app cycle would make a big difference...however, I've already been out of school for 2 years and quite frankly, I'm getting bored and need to get back to school, whether its a masters or an m.d. I just belong at a university (have a passion for learning things).

If I don't make it into a u.s. school this next time around I think I'd be content with heading out to the caribbean at st. george's or ross.

 

[mjmanprav]

MCAT MCAT MCAT...thats the biggest factor playing against the OP here. Although someone above stated that a 26 isn't bad, and it certainly isn't since that is "average" among MCAT test takers. However its NOT average among those admitted to medical school, which nationally is a 30, and among the UC's is a 33-34. Being a science major, one should score 9's and 10's on both science sections. Verbal should be at least a 9 to be competitive among the UC's. As always the higher the better. Therefore one should be scoring 30+.

Remember that UC's screen undergrad GPA and MCAT. The MCAT cut-off is usually 24-26, so you might just missed it. However its entirely possible that they have a sliding scale too, so if more people apply with higher MCAT scores, you can fall out as well. Other factors to look into would be your personal statement. That alone can knock you out of the process. If you don't meet any one of these criteria, then you don't get a secondary at the UCs.

I am not concerned with the OPs GPA, since its respectable among the UC system. Again, the MCAT score appears to be the most obvious handicap here. The question I propose now is how confident is the OP in improving his/her score? Statistically speaking, it is very hard to improve the MCAT score, especially the verbal reasoning score. Given this will be the 3rd time the OP will be taking the MCAT, its not looking too good. Anyone who has taken the MCAT can vouch for this. Verbal reasoning skills is something you gain over a life time....not something you can study for.

I agree that the OP should be "productive" during their year off. Whether it be in a masters program or some field they are interested in. In the end, its a numbers game, and its weighted towards undergrad GPA and MCAT scores. All the experience in the world may not overcome deficiencies in GPA/MCAT. From my own experience, I have found it easier to maintain a 4.0 GPA over a 2 year period than trying to go up 1 point on the verbal reasoning section. It was like pulling teeth to get it to a 10 on the real exam. Its possible though.

Yeah, I know its going to be a rough time getting up my scores. The first time I took the mcat I studied probably a month for it and did horribly. The second test I took I studied on my own, without a class. So I'm probably going to do either a kaplan or princeton review class and hopefully I can get up all my scores. I improved around 2 points on the verbal during my second sitting and am certain that I can do better and get it up to the 9-10 range.

 

[AtreyuRocks]

You're right, applying for the 2009 app cycle would make a big difference...however, I've already been out of school for 2 years and quite frankly, I'm getting bored and need to get back to school, whether its a masters or an m.d. I just belong at a university (have a passion for learning things).

If I don't make it into a u.s. school this next time around I think I'd be content with heading out to the caribbean at st. george's or ross.

i totally understand. i've been out of school two years now. working is fun, but not if it's not in your ultimate goal/profession. i <3 school. if i hadn't been accepted... i don't know what i would have done.

sound's like you've got a pretty good understanding of yourself, and a good idea of the options that are out there. did anyone mention DO? If you can't get the MCAT up, or regardless, maybe apply to western at the same time for 2008. my friend goes there and loves it. i also just saw Western's 2007 match list, and was surprised to see how many MD residency matches there were (and not only in family medicine) best of luck!

 

[mjmanprav]

A master's program is probably not a good use of your time or money. Bottom line is you need a better MCAT, and that's where your efforts should be focused.

Also, applying early and broadly in the next round will obviously help.

Good luck to you.

Hey...thanks for the advice. The mcat is a definite re-take for me, as is an early app turned in. But having a masters under your belt certainly can't **hurt you, can it?? If anything I would hope that it would be a positve thing to your app, and maybe something to differentiate yourself from others. From what I understand....the numbers (gpa, mcat) grant you the interview, and what gets you in are your extra-cirrics, and any extra "icing" on the cake.

Right now I'm considering one of a few options for my next year off: an smp program, from what others have told me seems too costly and unnecessary for me given my gpa in undergrad, as is a post-bacc program to boost my gpa. This also rules out simply taking Extension classes at a university b/c my gpa is ok. So, also b/c of the fact that I'm getting extremely bored these days I thought I'd give the masters a shot and maybe do some research / hospital work. However, from what ppl have told me, a masters will only help you in the admissions process if you'll finish it before you start med school.

Too much rambling again, but yeah....I've got a lot to think about I guess.

 

[relentless11]

I improved around 2 points on the verbal during my second sitting and am certain that I can do better and get it up to the 9-10 range.

Just curious if this was a computer based practice MCAT? Remember that there are about 6-7 passages rather than 9. Therefore the margin of error has theorectically been reduced. Before the first CB MCAT, the Kaplan and Princeton Review scoring had one missing no more than 7-9 questions to get a 9 on the section. Of course in reality, this will also be dependent the difficulty of the test version too.

Hey...thanks for the advice. The mcat is a definite re-take for me, as is an early app turned in. But having a masters under your belt certainly can't **hurt you, can it?? If anything I would hope that it would be a positve thing to your app, and maybe something to differentiate yourself from others. From what I understand....the numbers (gpa, mcat) grant you the interview, and what gets you in are your extra-cirrics, and any extra "icing" on the cake.

Of course a masters can't hurt you, but the more important question is how much will it help you in terms of medical school? GPA and MCAT are certainly important. However you are incorrect in assuming that these numbers help grant you an interview. Interviews are the most important in getting you into medical school (in the end). These may or may not include your extracurricular experiences. Interviews serve to see you as a person, and can serve to confirm extracurricular experiences. For example, a person who says they did 2 years of research should be able to speak intelligently about their work. If they washed dishes for 2 years, then they can't say much about their "research topics".

My PI graduate from the MSTP at UCSF. He stated that when he got into the program, UCSF based admission on a "6 point system". One point was allocated to the combined GPA/MCAT (yes 1 point). One point was allocated to the personal statement/extracurriculars. Two points for your letters of recommendations, and 2 points for your interviews. TWO-THIRDS of what got him into UCSF was based on interviews and letters of rec. A similar system still probably holds true today with the added GPA/MCAT screening. Therefore from a UC perspective, GPA/MCAT mainly serves to get you a secondary application, not an interview.

Again, I agree that a masters can only help rather than hurt you. But one must meet the standards set forth by each school. Otherwise eveyone would be getting masters degrees to get into med school easier. In all honesty, a masters degree isn't all that hard. There are also people out there with PhDs, JDs, RNs, and various other degrees who apply. Even these people have met stiff resistance when applying to med school. If you like whatever masters program, then go for it. Doesn't hurt you in terms of admissions. Might be more expensive though, but thats up to you.

 

[Medinsane]

Hi there OP,

Your stats are very similar to mine and so are you EC's. I'm still entertaining the idea of retaking the MCATs because I feel that it won't improve that much (maybe 1-2 points). For me, I'd rather reapply to DO's then retake the MCAT. I got an interview offer from Western very early the application cycle but didn't respond to it till alot later, a choice I regret. With your stats you would definitely be competitive for DO schools.

 

[Medinsane]

i totally understand. i've been out of school two years now. working is fun, but not if it's not in your ultimate goal/profession. i <3 school. if i hadn't been accepted... i don't know what i would have done.

sound's like you've got a pretty good understanding of yourself, and a good idea of the options that are out there. did anyone mention DO? If you can't get the MCAT up, or regardless, maybe apply to western at the same time for 2008. my friend goes there and loves it. i also just saw Western's 2007 match list, and was surprised to see how many MD residency matches there were (and not only in family medicine) best of luck!

Can you post the link to the matchlist please?

 

[kuangwchang]

From what I understand....the numbers (gpa, mcat) grant you the interview, and what gets you in are your extra-cirrics, and any extra "icing" on the cake.
guess.

All the schools I've spoken with rely very very heavily on GPA/MCAT even after the interview. Most of the other stuff (extra curr's, LoR's, interview) can't get you into med school solely off itself, but it sure can keep you out of it. Of course if you have extordinary EC's or publications those count towards you Z score which is good MCAT + (GPA x 10) + Z = Applicants priority score.

 

[relentless11]

All the schools I've spoken with rely very very heavily on GPA/MCAT even after the interview. Most of the other stuff (extra curr's, LoR's, interview) can't get you into med school solely off itself, but it sure can keep you out of it. Of course if you have extordinary EC's or publications those count towards you Z score which is good MCAT + (GPA x 10) + Z = Applicants priority score.

Be careful with spouting out "admissions equations". There are far and few published equations. The closest that I've seen would be Univ. of Washington's "weighted GPA scale" which weighs your soph and jr GPA in increasing increments to reward those who had an upward trend.

Beyond that, since the OP is applying to CA schools, more specifically the UC's, then it is worth to note that UC's treat MCAT and GPA EQUALLY, therefore no GPA x 10. This is straight from the horses mouth at UCD, and when conversing with the deans of admissions at UCSF, UCSD, UCLA, and UCI at the recent pre-AMSA conference.

Additionally, here at UCD (where I am at), they also note that if you have an undergrad GPA above 3.7 and/or a graduate GPA of 3.8, they would give you an "extra point". This does imply an equation, but it also acts to normalize GPA's past a certain point, and reward those who have gone beyond a certain percentile of applicants. Ultimately, MCAT and GPA are treated equally. If it amusing to run into pseudo-realistic equations which weigh this component vs. the next. Ironically it is MCAT which may be more plausible in being weighted due to it being standardized, and its correlation with improved USMLE scores.

Alas, MCAT only tests your abilities over a 5hr period, where as your GPA is the culmination of many years of hardwork so a good indicator of how you deal with workload. Either one does say something about the applicant, but clearly when both are weighed equally (like at the UC's and many other schools), then they work synergistically to help adcoms decide who gets an interview...and ultimately an admissions decision.

 

[AtreyuRocks]

Can you post the link to the matchlist please?

WesternU DO 2007 Matchlist from my MS1 friend

 

[kuangwchang]

I just stated the equation off of what I know, I didn't mean to imply that it applies for all schools. It's how TX schools work and many others, but I'm sure not all.

 

[mjmanprav]

Just curious if this was a computer based practice MCAT? Remember that there are about 6-7 passages rather than 9. Therefore the margin of error has theorectically been reduced. Before the first CB MCAT, the Kaplan and Princeton Review scoring had one missing no more than 7-9 questions to get a 9 on the section. Of course in reality, this will also be dependent the difficulty of the test version too.

Both of my mcats I sat for were paper-based....so yeah, it's going to be a very different process this time around which adds some uncertainty...but I gotta at least try right ?

Of course a masters can't hurt you, but the more important question is how much will it help you in terms of medical school? GPA and MCAT are certainly important. However you are incorrect in assuming that these numbers help grant you an interview. Interviews are the most important in getting you into medical school (in the end). These may or may not include your extracurricular experiences. Interviews serve to see you as a person, and can serve to confirm extracurricular experiences. For example, a person who says they did 2 years of research should be able to speak intelligently about their work. If they washed dishes for 2 years, then they can't say much about their "research topics".

My PI graduate from the MSTP at UCSF. He stated that when he got into the program, UCSF based admission on a "6 point system". One point was allocated to the combined GPA/MCAT (yes 1 point). One point was allocated to the personal statement/extracurriculars. Two points for your letters of recommendations, and 2 points for your interviews. TWO-THIRDS of what got him into UCSF was based on interviews and letters of rec. A similar system still probably holds true today with the added GPA/MCAT screening. Therefore from a UC perspective, GPA/MCAT mainly serves to get you a secondary application, not an interview.

Again, I agree that a masters can only help rather than hurt you. But one must meet the standards set forth by each school. Otherwise eveyone would be getting masters degrees to get into med school easier. In all honesty, a masters degree isn't all that hard. There are also people out there with PhDs, JDs, RNs, and various other degrees who apply. Even these people have met stiff resistance when applying to med school. If you like whatever masters program, then go for it. Doesn't hurt you in terms of admissions. Might be more expensive though, but thats up to you.

Yeah, but in order to get an interview I have to at least get that secondary, which in turn depends on my gpa/mcat...at least in the uc's it seems to play a huge role in determining who gets secondaries and (eventually) the interviews. My problem was that I could not even get past that secondary stage.

On a side note, you guys think it will hurt me a lot if I take the mcat on july 13th ? I kinda screwed up in that I haven't been studying for the mcat and I would probably not be ready to take it in either may or june....would I still receive secondaries before those scores are out or not until they are released a month later.

 

[mjmanprav]

A master's program is probably not a good use of your time or money. Bottom line is you need a better MCAT, and that's where your efforts should be focused.

Also, applying early and broadly in the next round will obviously help.

Good luck to you.

Yeah maybe the masters wouldn't do much. I'm not really concerned with the cost of a masters b/c its so cheap for cali residents...whether at a uc or a cal state. I'm really considering doing one because I'm bored with working and I really miss the university environment where I'm constantly learning something interesting.

My only fear is that med schools won't look at a masters if I'm in the middle of the program and will not be finished before I enter med school. It's tough to find a 1-year masters program in this state....they're all 2 year, researched-based programs.

 

[Medinsane]

WesternU DO 2007 Matchlist from my MS1 friend

Hey thanks for the link! They matched into some great schools!

 

[NightnDay79]

Yeah maybe the masters wouldn't do much. I'm not really concerned with the cost of a masters b/c its so cheap for cali residents...whether at a uc or a cal state. I'm really considering doing one because I'm bored with working and I really miss the university environment where I'm constantly learning something interesting.

My only fear is that med schools won't look at a masters if I'm in the middle of the program and will not be finished before I enter med school. It's tough to find a 1-year masters program in this state....they're all 2 year, researched-based programs.

Just curious- are you going of the masters/special programs list from amcas? If not, check it out. Also, if you are willing to move away for a year to get a masters or certificate that can be something to consider. An individual in my program is going to harvard med. after completing an IMS program at drexel. His undergrad gpa 3.6, post-bac gpa 3.8, and mcat 29 (never retook it). He was from north carolina, but still- PA is a way's away. Matter of fact too, we have quite a few CA people too- some just received acceptance letters from back home & others throughout the state (and our program doesn't finish until mid june).
Med schools will look at your efforts while in the masters program- you just need to keep them appraised of your performance.