Second Degree BSN

[MissPickles]

For anybody who attended a second degree BSN program, how did you pay for it?

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[NoRNshortage]

If you are having money issues, perhaps you should think about working full-time while doing a full/part-time ADN with an online option and flexible clinicals.

You will also need to budget in time for finding a job after graduation. They are not just going to be waiting for you at the door. This adds another 6 months to a year on top of your studies in which you will need to be flush with survival funds.

Just read this in Time Magazine today from Fareed Zakaria:

http://globalpublicsquare.blogs.cnn...omies-how-to-save-the-american-worker/?hpt=C1

Apparently the hidden riches of nursing are so great that we should "double down." Experienced nurses are having trouble finding jobs and people who know nothing about the industry tell everybody that lost their job they should go into nursing. Whatever...

 

[outnabout]

I agree with NoRNShortage. I have a BA in another field from years ago and looked into BSN programs but they were all expensive and were during the day when I have to work. So I decided to apply to an ADN program and then I figure once I finish that, I can go for a BSN if I want to. An ADN at a CC is cheaper anyway and fits into my schedule better. But it depends on what you are looking for.

 

[FireCloud9]

Outnabout,

You have a night time ADN program near you?

I've yet to come across an ADN program that is available after work hours. All the programs I've come across are day time programs.

NoRNshortage,

All one has to do is compare unemployment by industry to see that it's much smaller in healthcare than other industries.

Healthcare positions are more difficult to automate, offshore, eliminate, etc.

From your link:

"The single largest cause of this jobless growth is technology. If you look at almost every industry over the last 10 years, technology has completely transformed it. It’s easiest to see this in manufacturing. You go into an auto plant today and it employs far fewer people than it used to. General Motors, Ford or any of these places are able to produce many more cars with many fewer people.

Technology is transforming industries beyond manufacturing. Look at law. "Discovery” - a process that used to be done by young paralegals and lawyers - can now apparently be done by computers. Across the board, technology is transforming industries and raising productivity, but lowering worker head count.

Then on top of technological change, you have globalization. There are ready pools of skilled labor around the world that are willing to do some of the jobs that used to be done by Americans for a tenth of the price. American labor can't compete.

Working concurrently, technology and globalization have created a pincer movement pressing the average American worker.

With the bad, comes the good

Now, economic globalization is also having many beneficial effects. It’s helping anyone who has specialized skills or has access to and works with capital or technology. It’s helping the very poor because it dramatically lowers the cost of goods.

Indeed, the net effect of having very low inflation and very cheap goods is something that has benefited everyone. Everyone who has taken out a loan in the last 20 years has benefited from the fact that you have almost no inflation in the world because China and India - two global deflation machines - are pumping out goods and services at very low prices.

But the downside is felt in concentrated form by the middle of the American employment spectrum - the classic American worker who would make around the median wage, which is about $50,000 to $75,000 per year. The downside is being felt by people who had skills, but not highly-specialized skills; by people who had some training and education but not advanced education; those are the people whose labor has been either made obsolete by technology or commoditized by foreign labor.

Fareed has it right on most counts, but like economists, he too is misjudging the extent of the impact when he says the downside is being felt by those without advanced education.

I personally know hundreds with degrees in law, engineering, architecture, technology, etc. including advanced degrees that simply can't compete with Indian wages.

If I'm a business, why should I pay an American engineer $75-125k+ when I could hire an Indian engineer at 25-30% of that cost?

The model is simple. I can put 75-80% of my engineers, lawyers, architects, designers, etc. overseas and have 10-20% here double check the work and rubber stamp it to meet regulatory restrictions.

And that is the primary reason why healthcare is attractive.

That model that is being used by companies in virtually every industry doesn't work well in healthcare due to many factors from face to face patient interaction to union labor and regulatory constraints (that don't exist in other industries).

My wife and I often joke that healthcare will be the last jobs left in America - though even those, given enough time, will be largely automated.

Economists are asleep at the wheel. They have no answer to the question of how we modernize the world with automation / technology / robotics and still keep people employed.

UCSF Launches Automated Pharmacy

 

[outnabout]

Outnabout,

You have a night time ADN program near you?

I've yet to come across an ADN program that is available after work hours. All the programs I've come across are day time programs.

Yep. Actually, all the CC's near me have night programs. I wrote to the dean of the one closest to me just to confirm the whole program can be done at night because I was skeptical, and she did confirm it. I also checked the course schedules and the nursing classes start at around 5:30 and go until 11:30. That's a long day, but at least it is possible. They also have some secions that meet on weekends for those who don't want to go to school at night.

I applied to the CC the other day. That allows to me to register for the prereqs and I figure once I have those out of the way, then I will send in my transcripts from college and high school. Yes, they require HS transcripts for some reason. I thought that was odd, but ...whatever!

 

[MissPickles]

I see, I see. I realize going to community college is an option for paying out of pocket. It appears the only other option is to go for the BSN and take private loans.

All of this does leave me with one question however; how are the ADN to MSN degrees billed? Are these considered graduate credit hours? Because if so, (my end goal is to be a nurse midwife) that might be just as plausible as going from BSN-MSN.

Phew. All this trying to finagle is confusing.

 

[FireCloud9]

Yep. Actually, all the CC's near me have night programs. I wrote to the dean of the one closest to me just to confirm the whole program can be done at night because I was skeptical, and she did confirm it. I also checked the course schedules and the nursing classes start at around 5:30 and go until 11:30. That's a long day, but at least it is possible. They also have some secions that meet on weekends for those who don't want to go to school at night.

I applied to the CC the other day. That allows to me to register for the prereqs and I figure once I have those out of the way, then I will send in my transcripts from college and high school. Yes, they require HS transcripts for some reason. I thought that was odd, but ...whatever!

Are we talking about the same thing?

Pre-reqs AND an ADN program at night? If that's the case, lucky you! I rarely have access to evening classes around here. In fact, I was recently notified that one of the evening classes I registered for has been eliminated due to budget cuts.

I'm taking online classes this year, and evening classes when they're available though at some point I'll have to figure out how I'll do microbiology and physiology as those are usually only offered during the day around here.

As for the nursing programs themselves, just like the PA programs they're only available during the daytime. So I'll have to find a nighttime job in order to go to school during the day.

As for 5:30 to 11:30 - you'll get used to it. I did it through both undergrad and grad school. Just train yourself to immediately go to bed when you get home. I used to sleep from 12/12:30 to 5/5:30am, then do homework/reading/studying from 5/5:30am to 7/7:30 then go to work at 8/8:30 study/read during lunch and leave work at 4:30/5pm to get to class at 5/5:30pm.

I did it for ~8yrs so 2-3yrs isn't a big deal to me. Like I said, you'll get used to it.

MissPickles,

My wife will be taking out a loan to pay for her BSN.

Good question though. I don't know though I would assume that one wouldn't go from an ADN to a MSN. You'd have to earn the BSN first and then the MSN. That being the case ADN to BSN would count as undergraduate and BSN to MSN would be graduate work.

If you did go directly from ADN to MSN (assuming such a program exists), I would assume that you're accepted into an MSN program you'll be billed at the graduate level.

What I'm curious about is the difference between ADN RN and BSN RN in practical terms - that is, compensation, responsibilities, duties etc.

Are there any differences between an ADN RN (passed the NCLEX) that goes on to earn the BSN, and is now a BSN RN vs. an ABSN RN or a BSN RN that attended a 4yr program?

Do PA programs care or make any distinction between an ADN RN applicant and BSN RN applicant?

 

[outnabout]

Are we talking about the same thing?

Pre-reqs AND an ADN program at night? If that's the case, lucky you! I rarely have access to evening classes around here. In fact, I was recently notified that one of the evening classes I registered for has been eliminated due to budget cuts.

I'm taking online classes this year, and evening classes when they're available though at some point I'll have to figure out how I'll do microbiology and physiology as those are usually only offered during the day around here.

As for the nursing programs themselves, just like the PA programs they're only available during the daytime. So I'll have to find a nighttime job in order to go to school during the day.

As for 5:30 to 11:30 - you'll get used to it. I did it through both undergrad and grad school. Just train yourself to immediately go to bed when you get home. I used to sleep from 12/12:30 to 5/5:30am, then do homework/reading/studying from 5/5:30am to 7/7:30 then go to work at 8/8:30 study/read during lunch and leave work at 4:30/5pm to get to class at 5/5:30pm.

I did it for ~8yrs so 2-3yrs isn't a big deal to me. Like I said, you'll get used to it.

Thanks for the pep talk. I need it! The last time I took a class was in the early 90's so this is going to be a major change for me, but I figure I'm lucky enough to live in an area that offers these classes at night so I should take advantage of it. I have no idea how they do clinicals at night, but maybe it's because hospitals are open 24/7 so they've discovered a way that works for everyone. It also seems as though the prereqs are twice a week so that's definitely doable. I'm just not sure exactly what prereqs I need. That's the part of this process that is confusing. I've been out of school so long that I assume none of my science courses from college will transfer, but I hope that other classes like English, Psych, etc will. I have my BA in psych and work in publishing so I would refuse to retake any english or psych classes. Or maybe I could take the CLEP tests. I'll cross that bridge when I get to it.

Would it be possible for you to find online classes for micro and physiology? Even if they're out of state, maybe they'd transfer.

Are there any differences between an ADN RN (passed the NCLEX) that goes on to earn the BSN, and is now a BSN RN vs. an ABSN RN or a BSN RN that attended a 4yr program?

It seems to vary by region. Where I live, I hear hospitals are more inclined to hire BSNs (they don't seem to care if it was a ABSN or BSN (4 year). I personally don't plan to work in a hospital so I'm not concerned about that, but I probably would go for the BSN at some point. You'd have to check in your area to see what the trends are.

 

[FireCloud9]

I'm just not sure exactly what prereqs I need.

Would it be possible for you to find online classes for micro and physiology? Even if they're out of state, maybe they'd transfer.

You'll need:

• Anatomy w/lab
• Physiology w/lab
• Microbiology w/lab
• Chemistry w/lab

Those courses have to be recent (within last 5yrs for Chem, 7 for A&P). They are required for virtually all nursing and PA programs (MPA programs have additional requirements like O-Chem, and additional A&P, biochem, etc. varies by program)

The courses below will count if you've ever taken them. No need to retake.

• English composition (OL)
• English Literature (OL)
• Interpersonal Communication (Speech does not count) CLEP
• Sociology or Cultural Anthropology (OL)
• Social Science elective (OL)
• Statistics (OL)
• Lifespan Human Development (OL)
• Nutrition (OL)

Some ABSN programs require you to have taken:

• Pharmacology (OL)
• Pathophysiology (OL)

Please note that most schools do not accept online courses - particularly courses that require labs, while some schools will accept those courses.

You'll have to check with the target program.

If I took Micro and Physio online I'd be limited to one program around here as the rest do not accept online coursework for the science courses w/lab. The other courses don't seem to matter. In other words, most programs don't care if you did sociology, statistics or any of those other courses online.

Across California, there seems to be little variation in requirements. Those stated above seem to apply for most schools.

PA programs by comparison have tremendous variation - from H.S. Chemistry in some programs to 2yrs of Chemistry in other programs. Most PA program pre-reqs (from what I've seen) have more hard science and less "soft" class work.

 

[FireCloud9]

If you are having money issues, perhaps you should think about working full-time while doing a full/part-time ADN with an online option and flexible clinicals.

You will also need to budget in time for finding a job after graduation. They are not just going to be waiting for you at the door. This adds another 6 months to a year on top of your studies in which you will need to be flush with survival funds.

Just read this in Time Magazine today from Fareed Zakaria:

http://globalpublicsquare.blogs.cnn...omies-how-to-save-the-american-worker/?hpt=C1

Apparently the hidden riches of nursing are so great that we should "double down." Experienced nurses are having trouble finding jobs and people who know nothing about the industry tell everybody that lost their job they should go into nursing. Whatever...

Another recent article touting Healthcare.

 Job creation remains sluggish
Some companies remain wary about hiring because of mixed economic signs, prompting the slowest creation of jobs since the Great Depression. Health care is among the industries bucking the trend. USA TODAY (5/20)

 

[outnabout]

You'll need:

• Anatomy w/lab
• Physiology w/lab
• Microbiology w/lab
• Chemistry w/lab

Those courses have to be recent (within last 5yrs for Chem, 7 for A&P). They are required for virtually all nursing and PA programs (MPA programs have additional requirements like O-Chem, and additional A&P, biochem, etc. varies by program)

The courses below will count if you've ever taken them. No need to retake.

• English composition (OL)
• English Literature (OL)
• Interpersonal Communication (Speech does not count) CLEP
• Sociology or Cultural Anthropology (OL)
• Social Science elective (OL)
• Statistics (OL)
• Lifespan Human Development (OL)
• Nutrition (OL)

Some ABSN programs require you to have taken:

• Pharmacology (OL)
• Pathophysiology (OL)

Please note that most schools do not accept online courses - particularly courses that require labs, while some schools will accept those courses.

You'll have to check with the target program.

If I took Micro and Physio online I'd be limited to one program around here as the rest do not accept online coursework for the science courses w/lab. The other courses don't seem to matter. In other words, most programs don't care if you did sociology, statistics or any of those other courses online.

Across California, there seems to be little variation in requirements. Those stated above seem to apply for most schools.

PA programs by comparison have tremendous variation - from H.S. Chemistry in some programs to 2yrs of Chemistry in other programs. Most PA program pre-reqs (from what I've seen) have more hard science and less "soft" class work.

The program I'm applying to says the sciences have to be within the past 10 years. Mine are much older than that. I was never any good at math so I'm concerned about Chemistry more than anything else. Because of this, I'm thinking of taking a basic chem course as the first class I take. I figure if I can't even pull that off, then I'll know I should give this up before I get too far into it. I found a basic chem text and am going to work through that this summer and see what I think in the next month or so.

 

[FireCloud9]

The program I'm applying to says the sciences have to be within the past 10 years. Mine are much older than that. I was never any good at math so I'm concerned about Chemistry more than anything else. Because of this, I'm thinking of taking a basic chem course as the first class I take. I figure if I can't even pull that off, then I'll know I should give this up before I get too far into it. I found a basic chem text and am going to work through that this summer and see what I think in the next month or so.

Interesting. You think like my wife. She too started with Chem whereas I jumped into A&P first. Never considered letting a single class stop me from an objective or deciding my life for me.

I would say since you sound nervous, ease into it with the slam dunk classes and work your way into classes that are increasingly difficult.

 

[MissPickles]

Chemistry. If I can do it, anybody can do it; I got a 16 on my math ACT test and had to take algebra 5 times to pass it. I managed to get through Chem I with a C- and I am confident I can retake it and get at least a B because during that time I was partying a lot in my undergraduate years. I think you may want to just get a chemistry tutor right off the bat or make sure your professor has office hours you can go to, since you will probably need extra help. But you've gotta go into this with a fighting spirit...rawrr we are not letting one class hold us back! Hiiyaaaaaa!

 

[outnabout]

Thanks to you both! It's true I have no confidence in my ability to do anything related to math, but it's time to get over that fear. I've been reading through a basic chem text and it's making sense. Maybe now that I'm older and wiser and have a goal, it will all be ok. Thanks for the pep talks!

 

[FireCloud9]

Yes, you'll find that reading the same material as an older adult will seem easier than when you were younger (At least that's what I find) because you've been exposed to some of the information through life experience. Ex. When I was younger I spent a lot of time reading about bodybuilding and nutrition. When I took anatomy learning most of the muscles, action, origin, insertion, was mostly a refresher. In one particular type of martial art that I took for many years, leveraging skeletal structure is important, so understanding and knowing the names of most bones wasn't new. You won't know it all, but it'll be familiar to you.

If you're not confident with Chem. I would take other classes and read up on Chem on the side. You'll get more comfortable with it over time, and by the time you do take Chem, it won't be a shock.

I haven't taken Chem yet, but will be taking it this year. I have read up the first 12-13 chapters or so in my wife's Chem textbook (up to Org Chem), skim through Chem when I go to the bookstore, and have the Periodic Table of Elements and Functions of Organic Molecules handy at work. It's a single 2 sided sheet that I fold up and whenever I'm in line or waiting somewhere I just pull it out and "read" it. I've done some of the Org Chem problems and have read a couple of those chapters as well though not with the same intensity as the first 12 chapters.

I just finished reading the book (500pgs) for another course I'll be taking, and I'm starting my reading tonight on another class that I plan to take this year.

Usually, I've read all the material in a class before the first day of school, and then I re-read it, and try to stay ahead of the professor by 2-3 chapters.

When preparing for exams I focus only on those chapters so I "fall behind" in my reading ahead.

 

[MissPickles]

Oooh yes Chemistry for Dummies is great! I am working through it right now.

I'm not even all much older (25 versus 22) and its already so much easier. I think the collegiate, party time atmosphere was really interfering with my academic success, I must say.

I am kind of excited to see a few people who are also taking pre-reqs and doing what I'm doing! I don't know any real life people. Do we need to form a support group?

 

[outnabout]

FireCloud, Excellent advice! Thank you for that.

Yes, you'll find that reading the same material as an older adult will seem easier than when you were younger (At least that's what I find) because you've been exposed to some of the information through life experience. Ex. When I was younger I spent a lot of time reading about bodybuilding and nutrition. When I took anatomy learning most of the muscles, action, origin, insertion, was mostly a refresher. In one particular type of martial art that I took for many years, leveraging skeletal structure is important, so understanding and knowing the names of most bones wasn't new. You won't know it all, but it'll be familiar to you.

That is so true. I'm a personal trainer on the side so I know the muscles and bones already so I'm thinking A&P won't be too bad. And I also took martial arts and had to pressure points, etc. so that should be helpful. Hmmm, maybe I should take A&P first and chemistry later.

Miss Pickles, I got caught up in the socializing too much when I was in college too. I had one really bad semester and that's all it takes to mess up your GPA. But that was many years ago. I obviously don't care about any of that now.

I am kind of excited to see a few people who are also taking pre-reqs and doing what I'm doing! I don't know any real life people. Do we need to form a support group?

I think we already have! I actually haven't told my family or friends about my plans to go back to school. I know they are going to laugh or try to discourage me, so my plan is to start taking pre-reqs hopefully in the fall and then when I get into the actual nursing school, then I will have to tell people since my free time will be limited and it will be more noticeable that I'm not as available as I usually am.

Oh, I was in touch with an enrollment counselor at the nursing school today and she told me what the procedure is for submitting transcripts and taking pre-reqs. So at least I have the answers to my questions now. My only problem is I have to go on a business trip in Sept which means I'm going to miss a class and a lab, but hopefully it won't be too bad.

 

[FireCloud9]

So what are the pre-reqs for you?

I'll be taking another class or two beginning next week. Already read all the material. Ready to go. Starting my reading on fall classes that I'll be taking.

 

[outnabout]

So what are the pre-reqs for you?

I'll be taking another class or two beginning next week. Already read all the material. Ready to go. Starting my reading on fall classes that I'll be taking.

The pre-reqs are A&P I and II, Microbiology and Chem for the health professions. If I want to go for the BSN then they recommend taking a higher level Chem but I think I'll stick with the lower level for now.

I wanted to sign up for an online A&P class for the second summer session just to get my feet wet so to speak, but am having a problem with their online registration system so I'm going to go to the college in person to straighten that out.

I'm getting a little discouraged though. Since I can only take one class at a time I figured out that I'll probably be 50 by the time I finish this. And I wonder who is going to hire a 50 year old nurse with no experience....

 

[FireCloud9]

I understand your reservations. I'm in the exact same boat. I'll be 50.

Would you prefer being a 55yr old nurse with no experience? A 60yr old nurse with no experience?

The RN is portable. That is, unlike some healthcare degrees, the RN can be taken out of clinical context. You can work in insurance or other settings.

Obviously, most of those pursuing the RN plan to work in a clinical setting. For many that preference is a hospital setting, but don't forget private practice. You can go work at a doctor's office.

Remember, most pursuing the RN will have no experience as an RN. After all, if you could permanently perform RN work without the license, why pursue it?

Sure, there will be people that have done EMT, MA, CNA, or other similar work in a healthcare setting, but that's not RN experience.

I don't think as much about being 50 as I wonder what I would do from 50 to 67 (the earliest I could retire) - that's 17yrs. Need to work somewhere. What industries are looking to hire 50yr olds period? I simply view it this way - in which industries can 50yr olds be eliminated easiest?

And came to the conclusion that it's most difficult for healthcare (unions/structural), government (unions), and education (unions/tenure).

Any industry where people can work remotely is subject to outsourcing/offshoring. Today's 30yr old programmer making ~$75k working from home in his/her pajamas will be easily replaced in 15-20yrs when he/she approaches 50.

All that said, I keep an open mind.

Propose an industry where 50+yr olds can gain employment and can earn enough to support a family and I'll happily take it under consideration.

 

[outnabout]

I understand your reservations. I'm in the exact same boat. I'll be 50.

Would you prefer being a 55yr old nurse with no experience? A 60yr old nurse with no experience?

Well, that's a good point.

The RN is portable. That is, unlike some healthcare degrees, the RN can be taken out of clinical context. You can work in insurance or other settings.

Obviously, most of those pursuing the RN plan to work in a clinical setting. For many that preference is a hospital setting, but don't forget private practice. You can go work at a doctor's office.

True. I don't want to work in a hospital. I'd rather work in either a doctor's office or some other setting. I know someone who is a nurse and evaluates patients from home! She goes through their charts and recommends further treatment.

Sure, there will be people that have done EMT, MA, CNA, or other similar work in a healthcare setting, but that's not RN experience.

I had originally considered EMT because it's something that can be done in a few months, but when I saw how little money they make I figured it wasn't worth it. It's sad how little they make. I also looked into MA but they also make very little. CNA doesn't interest me. I figure if I'm going to do that, I might as well go for the ADN.

I don't think as much about being 50 as I wonder what I would do from 50 to 67 (the earliest I could retire) - that's 17yrs. Need to work somewhere. What industries are looking to hire 50yr olds period? I simply view it this way - in which industries can 50yr olds be eliminated easiest?

And came to the conclusion that it's most difficult for healthcare (unions/structural), government (unions), and education (unions/tenure).

I'm not sure even these jobs are safe anymore, especially gov't and education. I think any job where you have to interact with people in person is a good bet.

Any industry where people can work remotely is subject to outsourcing/offshoring. Today's 30yr old programmer making ~$75k working from home in his/her pajamas will be easily replaced in 15-20yrs when he/she approaches 50.

It's funny you mentioned this. I am not a programmer, but my boss told me the other day that I can work from home 2 days a week now. I had been doing that one day a week. At first I was happy, but then I realized what it really means....

All that said, I keep an open mind.

Propose an industry where 50+yr olds can gain employment and can earn enough to support a family and I'll happily take it under consideration.

Lol. I wish I could think of one... Thanks for putting things into perspective. I have a few phone calls to make today to straighten out my registration. I've been told that since I have a BA already, I can go for what is called the diploma option instead of the ADN. I don't know a lot about it but apparently in order to take the NCLEX, you have to have a degree in any field and since I already have one, I can skip the ADN. With the nursing diploma, more of my credits will transfer and it will take less time to complete. So I'm going to look into that today. I'll let you know what I find out.

 

[FireCloud9]

True. I don't want to work in a hospital. I'd rather work in either a doctor's office or some other setting. I know someone who is a nurse and evaluates patients from home! She goes through their charts and recommends further treatment.

Yes, they're enjoying the good life now, but anyone that can work from home can be replaced by a nurse in another State that can be paid less.

Personally, I'd like to work in a hospital briefly (6-18 months) just for the experience, but ultimately (after 5-10yrs of practice), I'd rather work P/T in different settings. 1-2d/wk in a hospital, 1-2d/wk in private practice 1-2d/wk teaching or consulting and perhaps a day in telehealth.

I'm not sure even these jobs are safe anymore, especially gov't and education. I think any job where you have to interact with people in person is a good bet.

Exactly. They're as safe as can be found outside of healthcare, but with budget deficits all over the place anyone new to teaching (non-tenured) has to worry just as much about cuts as anyone else.

It's funny you mentioned this. I am not a programmer, but my boss told me the other day that I can work from home 2 days a week now. I had been doing that one day a week. At first I was happy, but then I realized what it really means....

Next will be 3d/wk, then 4d, then 5d... that'll last 6 months and then you'll have the "talk". When you get to 3d/wk, start angling for another job. Between 3d/wk and "the talk" you have approximately 18m on average.

Lol. I wish I could think of one... Thanks for putting things into perspective.

That's an open challenge to anyone reading this thread. I'd be happy to take a look at other proposed industries, analyze them and consider the possibilities.

The diploma option limits you. It's my understanding that employers opt for the candidate with the higher clinical credentials - BSN vs. ADN vs. Diploma

Take a look at the job postings in your area and see how many employers are looking for RNs with diplomas. If it can get you in to an RN position quickly it may be worth it. You can always take night classes towards your ADN or BSN while working as an RN.

 

[outnabout]

So I called the college on Friday trying to get some info on my registration but couldn't find anyone who had a clue. I'm home on Tuesday so I'm going to go there in person. It's only a couple miles away.

Yes, they're enjoying the good life now, but anyone that can work from home can be replaced by a nurse in another State that can be paid less.

This person I know had been in a nurse in a major hospital for quite a few years before she got this telehealth position at the same hospital. It has something to do with evaluating patients with spinal problems.

Personally, I'd like to work in a hospital briefly (6-18 months) just for the experience, but ultimately (after 5-10yrs of practice), I'd rather work P/T in different settings. 1-2d/wk in a hospital, 1-2d/wk in private practice 1-2d/wk teaching or consulting and perhaps a day in telehealth.

This sounds great, but how would you get health insurance/other benefits if you have a series of part-time jobs?

Next will be 3d/wk, then 4d, then 5d... that'll last 6 months and then you'll have the "talk". When you get to 3d/wk, start angling for another job. Between 3d/wk and "the talk" you have approximately 18m on average.

I'm just enjoying this while I can, but I am keeping a close eye on it and will take your advice. I have started casually looking for another job, mainly just to see what's out there. I had an interview at one company last week and was offered a job, but the salary they were offering wasn't much more than what I make now and with a long commute and more responsibility, so I passed on that. I applied for something else but haven't heard from them. Slim pickings these days, and I live in a major city.

That's an open challenge to anyone reading this thread. I'd be happy to take a look at other proposed industries, analyze them and consider the possibilities.

The only other types of jobs I can think of would be construction, plumbers, etc. since it would be tough to build a house or fix someone's pipes remotely.

The diploma option limits you. It's my understanding that employers opt for the candidate with the higher clinical credentials - BSN vs. ADN vs. Diploma

Hmmm, I didn't know that.

Take a look at the job postings in your area and see how many employers are looking for RNs with diplomas. If it can get you in to an RN position quickly it may be worth it. You can always take night classes towards your ADN or BSN while working as an RN.

I checked the listings and most seem to want a BSN. Anything with the title "manager" in it wants a MSN. There are some that just say "RN" but don't specify what degree, but ALL the ads I saw wanted at least a year experience. But how do you get experience if no one will hire a new grad? The age old question....

 

[NoRNshortage]

And here you have hit upon the crux of the problem. Like the 49ers of old, everybody and their dog (and perhaps cat as well) has already been bum-rushing the nursing field in search of El Dorado. The field is ultra-saturated. Anybody who tells you otherwise is trying to sell their program or is a recruiter who can't say anything other than the company line.

It actually doesn't matter if you do ADN, BSN, or diploma, because when you finally obtain it without that minimum amount of experience which you have astutely pointed out as so key, you'll be in a world of financial hurt unless you have a backup plan.

My suggestion is that you retain a full time job, and pursue an online RN program that allows you to do clinicals on the weekends. Then be prepared to compete hard for few RN positions over the next 6-12 months after you pass your boards. Even with a great deal of effort, you may still have to keep your non-nursing job for many months more than you have bargained for. So don't burn any bridges.

I don't think you will need to think about management positions for quite some time yet. Most of the people I know in these positions have their MSNs and 10+ years bedside experience. And honestly, they don't make that much more. Unless you have aspirations of becoming nurse CEO someday, but there are only a handful of these. One could do much better becoming a clinical NP.

I checked the listings and most seem to want a BSN. Anything with the title "manager" in it wants a MSN. There are some that just say "RN" but don't specify what degree, but ALL the ads I saw wanted at least a year experience. But how do you get experience if no one will hire a new grad? The age old question....

 

[outnabout]

And here you have hit upon the crux of the problem. Like the 49ers of old, everybody and their dog (and perhaps cat as well) has already been bum-rushing the nursing field in search of El Dorado. The field is ultra-saturated. Anybody who tells you otherwise is trying to sell their program or is a recruiter who can't say anything other than the company line.

It actually doesn't matter if you do ADN, BSN, or diploma, because when you finally obtain it without that minimum amount of experience which you have astutely pointed out as so key, you'll be in a world of financial hurt unless you have a backup plan.

My suggestion is that you retain a full time job, and pursue an online RN program that allows you to do clinicals on the weekends. Then be prepared to compete hard for few RN positions over the next 6-12 months after you pass your boards. Even with a great deal of effort, you may still have to keep your non-nursing job for many months more than you have bargained for. So don't burn any bridges.

I don't think you will need to think about management positions for quite some time yet. Most of the people I know in these positions have their MSNs and 10+ years bedside experience. And honestly, they don't make that much more. Unless you have aspirations of becoming nurse CEO someday, but there are only a handful of these. One could do much better becoming a clinical NP.

I have no plans to quit my current career. Nursing is just something I've always wanted to do and now I finally can.

You mentioned an online RN degree. I haven't found any. Do they exist? I don't see how you can learn nursing remotely...

 

[FireCloud9]

It actually doesn't matter if you do ADN, BSN, or diploma, because when you finally obtain it without that minimum amount of experience ....

My suggestion is that you retain a full time job, and pursue an online RN program that allows you to do clinicals on the weekends.

One could do much better becoming a clinical NP.

A topic near and dear to my heart.

Logic would dictate that one cannot have "RN experience" without first having the RN, but if the RN is not a legal requirement to practice nursing, then we can have loads of experience!

outnabout, the online RN programs are largely tailored to LVNs and others that are already in healthcare and seeking to become a nurse.

You'll also see plenty of ADN to BSN online programs. They can do it online because they have the clinical side covered by their day jobs.

I presume that NoRNshortage has left the healthcare field in search of greener pastures in other industries.

One of my favorite complaints:

"I was applying for that RN job but there must have been at least 12 other people competing for it"

12? Just 12? That sounds like a dream to me....

My current management tells me that I was selected from a pool of over 200 applicants for my position. And that's not bad at all when you consider 1000s of construction laborers applying for a single job.

Campbell, the soup company, had an opening - an opening - and thousands applied. It was on the news. The wait in line for the position was hours long.

I do like the NP angle. No experience necessary!

 

[outnabout]

I think every field is saturated right now. People are just grasping at straws.

I found out that at the college I plan to attend, I can only transfer 22 credits from my bachelors degree if I go for the ADN option. But...I can transfer 40 credits for the diploma option. So...I think I'll just do the diploma option. That requires a special application that is only available at the college, so I have to go there on Friday to pick that up. It doesn't matter to me if I have the ADN, I just want to get the diploma and then see how things go.

I presume that NoRNshortage has left the healthcare field in search of greener pastures in other industries

Well, I wish him/her lots of luck!

 

[FireCloud9]

I thought I'd help out a bit.

Top 10 dying industries

Wired Telecommunications Carriers
Mills
Newspaper Publishing
Apparel Manufacturing
DVD, Game & Video Rental
Manufactured Home Dealers
Video Postproduction Services
Record Stores
Photofinishing
Formal Wear & Costume Rental

Top 10 growth industries
Voice Over Internet Protocol Providers (VoIP)
Wind Power
E-Commerce & Online Auctions
Environmental Consulting
Biotechnology
Video Games
Solar Power
Third-Party Administrators & Insurance Claims Adjusters
Correctional Facilities
Internet Publishing & Broadcasting


Yeehaw! We're all moving to Texas! Lone Star Jobs Surge

According to MODIS (a staffing firm) IT jobs are coming back from India! (And can just as soon be leaving again to any of 200 other countries)

Top 10 metro areas for jobs:

1. Washington, DC-Arlington-Alexandria

Industries to Watch: Demand is strong in architecture/engineering, as well as in the related categories of construction/extraction and installation/repair and maintenance.

2. San Francisco-Oakland-Fremont

Industries to Watch: Private-sector hiring is robust, with especially positive trends in management, IT, business/financial and architecture/ engineering, among other industries.

3. Baltimore-Towson

Industries to Watch: Many jobs are available here in legal, management and healthcare (both practitioner and support roles).

4. Minneapolis-St. Paul-Bloomington

Industries to Watch: Look for lots of opportunities in healthcare (practitioners, as well as technical and support work ers), business/financial and IT.

5. Cleveland-Elyria-Mentor

Industries to Watch: Consumer-driven sectors (food preparation/serving and personal care) are trending well, as are industries such as management and IT.

6. Boston-Cambridge-Quincy

Industries to Watch: The data shows strong growth in healthcare and architecture/engineering (among other industries) and fairly positive trends for computer/mathematical (IT) and business/financial.

7. Seattle-Tacoma-Bellevue

Industries to Watch: There's a high demand here for blue-collar or skilled-labor workers in transportation, construction, installation/repair and production.

8. Orlando-Kissimmee

Industries to Watch: Look to the private sector here for management, IT, and administrative/support jobs. Construction and protective-services jobs are also on the rise.

9. Pittsburgh

Industries to Watch: There are many jobs here for blue-collar workers in transportation, construction, installation/repair and production.

10. Kansas City

Industries to Watch: There's high demand here for people in the area of creative/marketing (arts, design, sports and entertainment, for example), as well as for workers in office administration and healthcare support roles.

MBA in Job-Hunting?
For comparison, a recent survey by the Graduate Management Admissions Council found that 54 percent of full-time M.B.A. students in the U.S. had job offers at graduation in 2011, up from only 40 percent the year before.

 

[outnabout]

Ha, what a joke! The IT jobs may be coming back (although I find that hard to believe) but guess who is taking them....people from India who have moved here. At least that's how it is where I live. At my company, ALL the people who work in the IT department are originally from India.

Oh, and I happen to work in Internet Publishing (the #10 growth industry on your list). The industry is growing, but it's easier to publish on the web than it is to publish on paper so not as many people are needed to do the job. So it's a bit misleading.

And...I have a friend who is retiring from the military after 20 years and he is heading to...Texas! He heard about the job boom there. Hopefully he'll be able to take advantage of that.

 

[FireCloud9]

Yes, it is misleading. Many industries are up and corporate profits have gone through the roof, but that doesn't necessarily translate into jobs nowadays.

In fact, since the downturn and the mass layoffs, productivity is up!

It's called technology and economists are way behind in their thinking as to how to migrate the existing workforce into the new technological age.

Quite frankly, even if they ever did stop to give that any thought at all, I don't believe they have any good answers. They'll just watch from afar as more and more industries and professions are offshored or automated and made obsolete by technology.

At some point in humanity's future, there's little reason why most work couldn't be done by technology alone with little human intervention.

What economists can't answer is, "How do people make a living in that technological era and beyond?"

 

[FireCloud9]

On this very subject I ran across this article today.

Before people consider any position they should determine how easy it is to automate or off-shore.

Your Well-Paid, Middle-Class Job Is in Danger

Here are the 10 fastest growing occupations from 2008 to 2018, and their median wages, according to the Labor Department:
• Biomedical engineers, median wages of $77,400

• Network systems and data communications analysts, $71,100

• Home health aides, $20,460

• Personal and home care aides, $19,180

• Financial examiners, $70,930

• Medical scientists, except epidemiologists, $72,590

• Physician assistants, $81,230

• Skin care specialists, $28,730

• Biochemists and biophysicists, $82,840

• Athletic trainers, $39,640

Changes in the Health-Care Field
Kevin Hallock, director of the Institute for Compensation Studies at Cornell University, cited radiologists as an example of a well-paid worker that could be hit by technology and cheap global labor.

"I suspect that we will see fewer radiologists in the U.S. than we have in the past since I understand there is little reason for a radiologist to be in the same place as a patient," Hallock said. "A radiologist can read a Terre Haute X-ray as easily in India as she can in Indiana."

However, fewer opportunities do not necessarily translate into the disappearance of an entire field.

"A lot of medical diagnostic work will be done overseas. You can have the initial diagnostic done elsewhere, and have a domestic supervising physician," said David Autor, an economist at Massachusetts Institute of Technology.


"Medical costs are a huge issue, and there's enormous incentive to find ways to reduce these costs. The internationalization of medical services will be one of the important ways that costs will potentially be slowed," he said.

Software can also cut down on workers needed to sort through paperwork, such as legal documents, Autor said.

"You digitize all of those documents, and a piece of software reads them and catalogs them," Autor said. "There is a lot of legal work that is essentially increasingly subject to automation, and that will affect the opportunity set for lawyers."

Computer programming is also becoming a commodity, Katz said.
"What used to be good programming jobs, or routine legal work, these are things that are easily broken into parts, and done in other places," Katz said.

 

[outnabout]

Frankly, I don't think any industry is safe from outsourcing--even the medical field. I have a friend whose son-in-law is in medical school right now and a daughter is in nursing school and she said both of them have said they expect medicine will become like every other job--sent overseas because doctors can read x-rays from anywhere now and can even diagnose and do surgery (although that's in the early stages). At some point, it won't matter where you live.

 

[pamac]

xray and pathology are ripe for outsourcing internationally. essentially those are already done effectively offsite in so many facilities. lab work is a bit more tricky, just due to time factors. those 3 areas will see more centralizing and consolidation over the next few years. however with labs, so many things are still time critical that i see them being done using simplified, cost effective devices onsite rather than being shipped. however, in my lab we get new equipment each year that supposedly will increase productivity, and we get busier each year. we have added shifts and hired more people. all the extra time i was hoping to have is being used up. also, the reality of circumstances on the ground are often beyond the understanding of folks that are simply crunching the numbers. things dont always behave like you expect them to, and being onsite may seem like an expense to be done away for the sake of efficiency, but if having someone offsite contributes to chaos, that efficiency dividend can be eaten up quickly. that may not jive with a lot of you folks that are steeped in areas like IT, and arent familiar with healthcare, but we constantly are tweaking processes, and experimenting with technology to get rid of the waste. the results can be surprising, and they dont always lend weight to the notion that things are going to change dramatically any time soon.

but back to the op's question.... i just got into an ADN program, and my hospital is paying for the expenses. if you can swing it, get on with a facility that offers tuition assistance. you can be a housekeeper and take advantage of such a program. there are likely to be some conditions, but you are almost guaranteed a job at the facility after graduation as a result of their investment in your education. i was originally going to go to PA school, but getting into nursing changed the financial outlook considerably (no facility i know pays for PA school except for the military). so now instead of 2 years lost income, and 2 years of tuition and relocation, i could potentially become an NP for a small fraction of the cost to be a PA.

these days, even RNs are starting to have the kind of difficulty finding work that i noticed in the lab field 3 years ago. no longer are there sign on bonuses and tuitinon reimbursement for new hires (different concept that tuition assistance for existing employees). you have to apply broadly for jobs, and network. i cant tell you how many new faces of old nurses returning to the workforce from retirement i see every day at work. new grad RN's are nowhere to be found because a more experienced nurse doesnt cost as much to get going when a position opens up. in that regard, it pays to have experience, but not too much that you are a liability.

 

[deleted6669]

Kind of doubt that pa jobs are going away any time soon. did you read the article you linked to? the section you highlighted was about GOOD jobs, not jobs prone to outsourcing:

However, ****not all is doom and gloom*****. Among the 20 fastest growing occupations from the U.S. Labor Department's employment projections for 2008 to 2018, 11 earn at least $10,000 more than the national annual median wage of $32,390 in May of 2008.

Here are the 10 *****fastest growing occupations**** from 2008 to 2018, and their median wages, according to the Labor Department:

• Biomedical engineers, median wages of $77,400


• Network systems and data communications analysts, $71,100


• Home health aides, $20,460


• Personal and home care aides, $19,180


• Financial examiners, $70,930


• Medical scientists, except epidemiologists, $72,590


• Physician assistants, $81,230



pa is the top earning masters degree according to forbes magazine(2nd yr in a row) and the #2 field for growth over the next 10 yrs per the bureau of labor statistics( medical asst. is #1).
I have more work than I want and frequently am trying to give away shifts.

 

[outnabout]

pa is the top earning masters degree according to forbes magazine(2nd yr in a row) and the #2 field for growth over the next 10 yrs per the bureau of labor statistics( medical asst. is #1).
I have more work than I want and frequently am trying to give away shifts.

I hear there are more opportunities for NPs than PAs, but I don't know. PA school is not an option for me personally because they are all full-time programs around here and I can't quit my job in order to do that. If I could, I would. Is that salary of $81k a starting salary?

 

[deleted6669]

I hear there are more opportunities for NPs than PAs, but I don't know. PA school is not an option for me personally because they are all full-time programs around here and I can't quit my job in order to do that. If I could, I would. Is that salary of $81k a starting salary?

the np vs pa issue is very regional.
pa's tend to have the hospital based jobs like surgery, em, hospitalist, etc locked up and np's tend to get most of the outpt jobs like peds, fp, IM, etc
81k is a very low starting salary. most pa's after a few yrs are making much better money than that with most hospital based pa's making > 90k and many > 100k.
the dnp trend is working against np's because it makes docs consider them a threat so they are opting to hire pa's. most of the doc professional societies are lining up on the side of the pa's. this is especially true for em, surgery, and anesthesiology.

 

[pamac]

you know PA's in anesthesiology?

 

[deleted6669]

you know PA's in anesthesiology?

yup.
only a few do operative anesthesia. most do pre and post op stuff or work in pain clinics.
I also know a few AA's. their #s are starting to grow pretty rapidly as md anesthesiology groups tend to prefer them over crna's in those states which allow AA's(18 or so at last count with a few more added every yr).

 

[pamac]

16 states, and 12 practice under thier own licence. colorado is as far west as AA's get for now, but i can see how the level training an AA would have would be more in line with what an MD or DO would want. if AA's had penetrated the health care world farther than they have, i'd be looking into it. i was not aware that any doctors had problems of any kind with CRNA's though. NA school is pretty serious stuff. i read the other day that they want to make the NA path a doctorate though... it sounded like it was a set in stone switch rather than the NP suggested switch date (2015).

 

[pamac]

not doing operative anesthesia means they don't compete in the bread and butter of what most CRNA's want to be doing though. so basically, PA's can do limited scope CRNA work from what you are saying right?

 

[deleted6669]

not doing operative anesthesia means they don't compete in the bread and butter of what most CRNA's want to be doing though. so basically, PA's can do limited scope CRNA work from what you are saying right?

actually pa's tend to be more accepted in pain management circles than crna's who are viewed as the competition. some states actually specifically state that crna's can not do interventional pain procedures.
don't think docs have a problem with crna's? take a look over at the anesthesia forums. hardly a thread there doesn't talk about them.

 

[pamac]

i dont doubt that is the case, but i interpreted what you said about doctors prefering PAs in anesthesia to mean that PA's had the ability under normal circumstances to perform in an operative setting rather than in the capacity of having certain tasks like pre op and post op activity delegated to them. AA's are not PA's though, they are their own creature... more in the mold of a PA, but nontheless, they arent generally interchangable to my knowlege. maybe there are some isolated cases, or dual cert programs. i guesse it could be up to an anesthesiology group whether or not to hire CRNAs for the operative portion, and PA's on either end of the patient's experience... just seems like overkill when all you would need to do was hire a competant CRNA. pain clinics... sure, why not hire PA's over CRNAs?

one can make the arguement that PAs are trained more rigorously than NP's, but can you say that an AA is better prepared than a CRNA? NA's hit the books pretty hard. are doctors all over holding CRNA's to the fire because some of the leadership in the NP world are clamoring to be called doctor?

 

[Salamandrina]

For anybody who attended a second degree BSN program, how did you pay for it?

See my little "Army" Icon. Well, there ya go. $100,000 (for both my bachelor's) paid back by uncle sam for a three year commitment. Pretty sweet, actually.

 

[deleted6669]

but can you say that an AA is better prepared than a CRNA? NA's hit the books pretty hard. are doctors all over holding CRNA's to the fire because some of the leadership in the NP world are clamoring to be called doctor?

yup, AA's have to take medschool level prereqs and the mcat for admission. when they work in the same place as part of an anesthesia care team they do the same thing.
md anesthesiologists HATE crna's because of their ability to bill independently in something like 20 states now.

 

[pamac]

in 20 states, it sounds like CRNA's have something that many PA's would give their eyeteeth to obtain. That independence is likely to be what most rubs physicians wrong.

 

[FireCloud9]

Kind of doubt that pa jobs are going away any time soon. did you read the article you linked to? the section you highlighted was about GOOD jobs, not jobs prone to outsourcing:

However, ****not all is doom and gloom*****. Among the 20 fastest growing occupations from the U.S. Labor Department's employment projections for 2008 to 2018, 11 earn at least $10,000 more than the national annual median wage of $32,390 in May of 2008.

Here are the 10 *****fastest growing occupations**** from 2008 to 2018, and their median wages, according to the Labor Department:

• Biomedical engineers, median wages of $77,400


• Network systems and data communications analysts, $71,100


• Home health aides, $20,460


• Personal and home care aides, $19,180


• Financial examiners, $70,930


• Medical scientists, except epidemiologists, $72,590


• Physician assistants, $81,230



pa is the top earning masters degree according to forbes magazine(2nd yr in a row) and the #2 field for growth over the next 10 yrs per the bureau of labor statistics( medical asst. is #1).
I have more work than I want and frequently am trying to give away shifts.

I know. That's why I highlighted PA in blue.

 

[deleted6669]

I know. That's why I highlighted PA in blue.

sorry, I misunderstood your intention in posting the link.

 

[Zowie]

Miss Pickles, I took my rn to bsn at Unitek College and it was an online program so I was able to work and still go to school. What school are you applying to? Check to see if they have an online program. Oh and each school has financial aid options available that helps a lot!

 

[FireCloud9]

Miss Pickles did you enroll?

I'm wrapping up another class this week.

8 classes down, 4-6 classes to go (depending on program and degree - PA / ABSN / ELMSN)

 

[outnabout]

Miss Pickles did you enroll?

I'm wrapping up another class this week.

8 classes down, 4-6 classes to go (depending on program and degree - PA / ABSN / ELMSN)

I don't think Miss Pickles ever visited this site again after her few initial posts. For me personally, I decided not to do this. When I looked at the cost involved, I realized there's no way I can do it. I'm thinking I might become an EMT instead. I know there's no money in that, but it's better than nothing and it would be an entry into health care to see if I like it.