SDN ads, moderator randomness

[Nexx]

At the risk of being b*tched at by a mod... as I know you are never supposed to 'question' the decisions of those in charge on the internet

I just found it amusing that a locked thread about asking about behaviour modification probably shouldn't show me an ad for some BS behaviour modification website--just doesn't seem to mesh well with the policy shown below or the actions of a recent moderator.

Furthermore, the OP's question on the unnamed locked topic seems to fall in line with the "HON declaration" on SDNs terms of service -- that is asking for personal experiences in helping with their situation.

Health on the Net (HON) Declarations

All users and members are, by default, considered as non-medical professionals. Because of this, we recommend against sharing medical information on the site. However, if such information is shared, when not personal experience, the member should include links or other reference documenting the medical information. Lastly, all member have the ethical, moral and legal responsibility to post truthful information.

Feel free to ban me/lock this post too, just get a little annoyed at some of the people who report posts on this forum and the randomness that occasionally gets locked down while similar items stay up. *shrug*

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Members don't see this ad.

 

[PerolaNegra]

I have nothing to do with Veterinary. But, I agree with the inconsistancies that you speak of. I have noticed it myself before in other instances.

 

[Electrophile]

To your credit, most vets don't know a darn thing about behavior either so the "go see a vet" stock answer isn't even particularly helpful either. Just a thought...

 

[chris03333]

To your credit, most vets don't know a darn thing about behavior either so the "go see a vet" stock answer isn't even particularly helpful either. Just a thought...

Right but the problem may stem from a medical issue, which is why I always give the "stock answer" regardless if it "isn't even particularly helpful either"

Once you are in practice for a while you may understand. You need to medically evaluate animals with "behavior" problems and if you do not have the comfort to "do a darn thing about behavior" then refer to a behaviorist. That should not be done until you know that the issue is purely behavioral. Just another thought...Sorry if I offend you

 

[tkim]

I just found it amusing that a locked thread about asking about behaviour modification probably shouldn't show me an ad for some BS behaviour modification website--just doesn't seem to mesh well with the policy shown below or the actions of a recent moderator.

Those ads are generated using Google's adsense engine. If you aren't a donor, you can't get rid of the ads, since clickthrough of the ads is what pays for the site, if you don't donate.

The mods have no control over what ads appear on the site. If you don't want to see the ads, donate.

*shrug*

 

[Nexx]

Those ads are generated using Google's adsense engine. If you aren't a donor, you can't get rid of the ads, since clickthrough of the ads is what pays for the site, if you don't donate.

The mods have no control over what ads appear on the site. If you don't want to see the ads, donate.

*shrug*

Yeah, it's not so much a question of me seeing the ads... it's the specific ad that was shown (for behaviour modification) in a post that was locked because the OP was purportedly seeking medical advice (behaviour problem in a dog). Therefore my post is more a comment on that. I don't really care to remove the ads from view.

Furthermore Chris, the OP is in vet school made reference to visiting their primary vet AND a behaviourist and now was seeking 'last resort, personal experience' information.

 

[sumstorm]

Also, in some of these situations, the individual has referenced seeing a veterinary professional (at a vet school in at least one) which means they have already climbed the ladder of expertise for treatment. I wouldn't want to tromp on my future associates by undermining whatever program of treatment they prescribed, especially since I am NOT a vet behaviorist and because non-compliance is the top issue with behavioral cases. In the post I believe you are referencing, a mention of an institute at a vet school was mentioned, as was an Rx, along with symptoms that, for me as a practicing animal trainer equates to an instant reference to a veterinary professional.

If I came online and asked for personal experiences in providing treatment kidney failure in a cat with specific details, I hope you would say 'talk to the vet' rather than telling me the dosages of meds you used on your pet.

I guess it is a fine line...and ads are what pay for sites.

 

[tkim]

Yeah, it's not so much a question of me seeing the ads... it's the specific ad that was shown (for behaviour modification) in a post that was locked because the OP was purportedly seeking medical advice (behaviour problem in a dog). Therefore my post is more a comment on that. I don't really care to remove the ads from view.

Furthermore Chris, the OP is in vet school made reference to visiting their primary vet AND a behaviourist and now was seeking 'last resort, personal experience' information.

Yeah, the line between personal experience versus medical advice can be confusing. It shouldn't be, if you clearly state it being personal experience or soliciting only personal experiences.

 

[sumstorm]

The challenge is that behavior modification can be medical advice.

 

[Electrophile]

Right but the problem may stem from a medical issue, which is why I always give the "stock answer" regardless if it "isn't even particularly helpful either"

Once you are in practice for a while you may understand. You need to medically evaluate animals with "behavior" problems and if you do not have the comfort to "do a darn thing about behavior" then refer to a behaviorist. That should not be done until you know that the issue is purely behavioral. Just another thought...Sorry if I offend you

Yes, which is why I always ask all my behavior clients if they've seen their vet about the problem and what the medical history is. However, it's still like talking to a family practice physician when a psychologist/psychiatrist is of more use. Too many general practice vets (and even boarded veterinary behaviorists) wish treat the symptoms and just give the dog clomipramine and not address the problem with behavior modification. They often don't even bother referring to a good trainer or behaviorist. Sometimes it's lazy clients, but it's often lazy doctors.

 

[tkim]

The challenge is that behavior modification can be medical advice.

Sure, but if you offer some personal experience that someone else extracts medical advice from, can it really be construed as medical advice?

I mean, if I have ADHD and I talk about how Ritalin helped me, can that be construed as medical advice? It's one thing to prohibit the solicitation or offering of medical advice, but to barr personal experiences if they contain medical content that could be used as medical advice goes a little far.

 

[sumstorm]

Sure, but if you offer some personal experience that someone else extracts medical advice from, can it really be construed as medical advice?

I mean, if I have ADHD and I talk about how Ritalin helped me, can that be construed as medical advice? It's one thing to prohibit the solicitation or offering of medical advice, but to barr personal experiences if they contain medical content that could be used as medical advice goes a little far.

Last I checked, to legally obtain Ritalin, you had to talk to a doctor. The thing with behavior modification is that there are risks, including permenant injury or death to the animal and injury to humans. A more apt comparison would be couseling somene who is trying to calm down someone threatening harm to themselves or others. In both cases, behavior is the problem, and in both cases you would be sharing personal experiences with another person confronting the same situation.

Why wouldn't the OP discuss this with the vet behaviorist and ask for recommendations to trainers that might be able to help with modification? I do understand your point. I admit, as soon as the intensity of the issue and the mention of meds and vet treatment came in, I opted not to respond. At that point, it went beyond a training issue and into a medical issue. The line for me was already crossed (sought medical advice previously for same behavior, not happy with medical advice, seeking opinions on board.)

Kind of like 'my doc Rx'd Ritalin' .... 'oh, I was on that, but X works so much better'..... is that med advice? probably, technically, yes.

 

[No Imagination]

I kind of agree with the OP on this one.

What other people have said is certainly true and for the most part accurate, I can't imagine anyone being alright with me saying.

"Oh, you are having behavior modification problems? Well, click the link above and let us know how it works out".

It seems like the OP went through a LOT of the hoops such as talking to a vet, behavior clinic (never heard of it), ect.

It certainly is a fine line we all have to walk, but we allow questions pertaining to specific case studies, dosages, and ethics - I mean, what if everyone who was asked "How do you feel about euthanasia" was referred to Kant's "Critique of Pure Reason"... for the answer? or dare I say the AVMA's website, who can barely articulate their stance on most issues.

I just didn't get the vibe from that thread that the poster was seeking medical advise.

 

[tkim]

Kind of like 'my doc Rx'd Ritalin' .... 'oh, I was on that, but X works so much better'..... is that med advice? probably, technically, yes.

If I told you to take Adderal and ditch your Ritalin, that would be medical advice. If I told you that Ritalin didn't work for me but Adderal did, that would be a personal experience. There's medical content in both, but only one has the intent of medical advice. Again, it's subject to the interpretation of the mods, so that's why there will be some threads closed and some left open that appear indistinguishable in terms of content. It's the intent that's open to debate for the solicitor and giver of advice.

 

[alliecat44]

I kind of agree with the OP on this one.

I just didn't get the vibe from that thread that the poster was seeking medical advise.

+ 1

Especially when the OP has been a member of this community for years; has always been professional, kind, and helpful; and is a really valuable member who historically always respects the rules.

Sounded to me more like she was "asking permission"/looking to alleviate some guilt if they decided to euthanize the dog, anyway.

(IMHO, it doesn't sound like the dog's quality of life is very good, but that's just me.)

 

[sumstorm]

It seems like the OP went through a LOT of the hoops such as talking to a vet, behavior clinic (never heard of it), ect.

I just didn't get the vibe from that thread that the poster was seeking medical advise.

The behavior clinic is colorado state u's.

I didn't report it (just opted not to respond) but for whatever reason, the admin isn't comfortable with it and feel that it is seeking medical advise. They didn't delete it, so anyone who wishes to share experiences could still send those to the OP. I am not sure that admins read everything...so they may not know some of the discussions that go on. I know there was at least one of ther discussion about a similar topic where I mentioned that it was drifting into advice rather than personal experiences.

 

[Bill59]

This is actually very straight forward. If you offer specific recommendations about diagnosis or treatment of a specific patient, you are giving medical advice.

If you offer general information about a condition, you aren't.

For example:

"Carporfen is often used to treat DJD in dogs" is offering information.

"Your dog may have DJD, you should treat him with carprofen" is giving medical advice.

Whether you are a DVM, MD, LVT, veterinary student, someone who has a dog with DJD or a 5th grader who can't even spell DJD is totally irrelevant. Offering medical advice outside the confines of a valid veterinarian-client-patient relationship -- in other words on this forum -- is a bad idea (and may be illegal) regardless of your qualifications. The only thing worse would be acting on those recommendations for your sick pet.

The other issue I suspect the mods have to consider is a forum like this can quickly turn into an "Ask the Doctor" site where people come for medical advice.

 

[tkim]

This is actually very straight forward. If you offer specific recommendations about diagnosis or treatment of a specific patient, you are giving medical advice.

If you offer general information about a condition, you aren't.

For example:

"Carporfen is often used to treat DJD in dogs" is offering information.

"Your dog may have DJD, you should treat him with carprofen" is giving medical advice.

Whether you are a DVM, MD, LVT, veterinary student, someone who has a dog with DJD or a 5th grader who can't even spell DJD is totally irrelevant. Offering medical advice outside the confines of a valid veterinarian-client-patient relationship -- in other words on this forum -- is a bad idea (and may be illegal) regardless of your qualifications. The only thing worse would be acting on those recommendations for your sick pet.

The other issue I suspect the mods have to consider is a forum like this can quickly turn into an "Ask the Doctor" site where people come for medical advice.

The question of whether personal experience with a treatment of a medical condition constitutes medical advice. That's the question at hand.

 

[smq123]

I just found it amusing that a locked thread about asking about behaviour modification probably shouldn't show me an ad for some BS behaviour modification website--just doesn't seem to mesh well with the policy shown below or the actions of a recent moderator.

As tkim pointed out, those ads are randomly generated, based on keywords found in the posts. If you read a post about gays in medical school, for instance (a fairly frequent topic), it's likely that you'll see an ad for a gay dating site. It's not SDN's decision which ads get placed where.

just get a little annoyed at some of the people who report posts on this forum and the randomness that occasionally gets locked down while similar items stay up. *shrug*

I have nothing to do with Veterinary. But, I agree with the inconsistancies that you speak of. I have noticed it myself before in other instances.

For many of the forums on SDN, action can only be taken if something is reported. Generally speaking, I don't read every forum on SDN - just the ones that I have some interest in, and only one of which I am personally responsible for. If I don't read it, I can't do anything about it. So there is definitely going to be some inconsistencies in what gets reported and what does not.

All the mods are on a volunteer basis - otherwise, we're students/residents/attendings. Because of that, we can't patrol the forum 24/7. It's a different story in something like pre-allopathic, which has ~8 moderators.

I'm not bitching at you, just explaining the reality.

Yeah, it's not so much a question of me seeing the ads... it's the specific ad that was shown (for behaviour modification) in a post that was locked because the OP was purportedly seeking medical advice (behaviour problem in a dog). Therefore my post is more a comment on that.

Again, not a decision by SDN or by a mod.

Furthermore, the OP's question on the unnamed locked topic seems to fall in line with the "HON declaration" on SDNs terms of service -- that is asking for personal experiences in helping with their situation.

When I read that post now, it sounds VERY close to the edge of asking for medical advice. To that extent, it's a bit of a judgment call. That being said, I probably would also have played it safe and closed it.

What you need to understand is - it's not just worrying about giving medical advice to that PARTICULAR poster.

What if someone (a non-SDN user) searches google and finds that thread and decides that his dog is just like the OP's? And takes it upon himself to follow the advice given to the OP in that thread, even though his dog actually has a distinct disorder/problem? And if that dog suffers damage, what is that non-SDN user liable to do? Sue SDN for "dispensing inaccurate medical advice."

For this reason, we try to keep any "medical advice" to things that could be found in any textbook - and try to avoid dispensing advice that is specific to one particular person's situation.

 

[Nexx]

Behaviour, and behaviour issues are not inherently a 'medical' problem -- they can be yes and there are doctors boarded in Behaviour medicine... but you can be an animal behaviourist or animal trainer without a medical degree or even a PhD. Hell, that is why we are graced with the joy that is Cesar Milan, if training animals required a medical degree we wouldn't have the crap that is his show. While he and his show may be crap there are other people out there qualified to 'train' animals who are good at it and 'not doctors.'

The simple mentioning of a drug and that a person has sought medical help for a condition also does not mean that they are asking for medical advice in this case. For instance there are a couple non-medical recommendations I could give for the OP just off the top of my head that it sounded like they had not been tried by them (i.e. another dog in the household might work)

I know SDN doesn't want to be a place where people pop in and ask medical advice... but you know what this wasn't the case. the OP has been here quite a while now and has been prolific within the community for some time. I understand that mods are volunteers and that they may not read every forum (I used to be a mod&admin for a large company). I also understand that their attention had obviously been drawn to that post because someone reported it. As per my explanation above I don't agree with their actions.

Also it is ridiculous and hypocritical that an ad for this website: http://www.kingdomofpets.com/dogobediencetraining/ should be shown. What should the OP just click on that and purchase that program while SDN makes money off his locked post? Someone just browsing the internet with the 'same problem' could also come along from see the original post (regardless of it being locked) and also click on that website. More money for SDN I suppose. Point is, I don't care if it is google adsense pulling up the ads and SDN has no hand in choosing the ads -- it is STILL their website, and they (the volunteers are at least) are concerned about the content of messages contained on it, well 'ads' are a form of content. It just furthers my point that perhaps behaviour modifications are not always a medical issue and perhaps the post shouldn't have been locked down. After all, we don't see a whole lot of ads for "spay your dog yourself with our $5 kit" or "cheap viagra without a prescription, click here!" -- then again I just might not be looking hard enough.

 

[smq123]

Behaviour, and behaviour issues are not inherently a 'medical' problem -- they can be yes and there are doctors boarded in Behaviour medicine... but you can be an animal behaviourist or animal trainer without a medical degree or even a PhD. Hell, that is why we are graced with the joy that is Cesar Milan, if training animals required a medical degree we wouldn't have the crap that is his show. While he and his show may be crap there are other people out there qualified to 'train' animals who are good at it and 'not doctors.'

Behavioral problems may not necessarily be a medical problem for humans either. But if someone posted on SDN that their spouse was exhibiting severe behavioral problems/mental problems, we would probably still tell that poster to take their spouse to a psychologist or at least a therapist (who doesn't need to have a PhD either).

The simple mentioning of a drug and that a person has sought medical help for a condition also does not mean that they are asking for medical advice in this case. For instance there are a couple non-medical recommendations I could give for the OP just off the top of my head that it sounded like they had not been tried by them (i.e. another dog in the household might work)

Like I said, in this case it was a fine line. The particular moderator, acting on reported posts requests from other veterinary students who frequent that forum, decided to close it.

I know SDN doesn't want to be a place where people pop in and ask medical advice... but you know what this wasn't the case. the OP has been here quite a while now and has been prolific within the community for some time. I understand that mods are volunteers and that they may not read every forum (I used to be a mod&admin for a large company).

That's true that the OP has been there a while now. Doesn't mean that they can't slip up. There were people who were moderators and admins and, based on their irresponsible behavior, were "demoted" and eventually asked to leave this site. Longevity isn't necessarily an excuse.

Like I said, it was a fine line. You obviously feel that it wasn't a request for medical advice, but other posters disagreed with you. And, well, that's going to happen from time to time. To be honest, when I read the post, I feel that if the OP had worded the post differently, it would have NOT come across as a request for medical advice, but rather a request for anecdotal suggestions based on other people's experiences. It was a tough call.

Also it is ridiculous and hypocritical that an ad for this website: http://www.kingdomofpets.com/dogobediencetraining/ should be shown. What should the OP just click on that and purchase that program while SDN makes money off his locked post? Someone just browsing the internet with the 'same problem' could also come along from see the original post (regardless of it being locked) and also click on that website. More money for SDN I suppose. Point is, I don't care if it is google adsense pulling up the ads and SDN has no hand in choosing the ads -- it is STILL their website, and they (the volunteers are at least) are concerned about the content of messages contained on it, well 'ads' are a form of content. It just furthers my point that perhaps behaviour modifications are not always a medical issue and perhaps the post shouldn't have been locked down. After all, we don't see a whole lot of ads for "spay your dog yourself with our $5 kit" or "cheap viagra without a prescription, click here!" -- then again I just might not be looking hard enough.

If you have another suggestion for how to keep SDN running without ads, or an alternate service besides Google Adsense, then please let us know. We'd be happy to look into it. As of now, though, this was the best option.

 

[Optimistic 13]

.

 

[Bill59]

The question of whether personal experience with a treatment of a medical condition constitutes medical advice. That's the question at hand.

"My dog has DJD and takes carprofen." Not medical advice.

"You dog has DJD, maybe you should give him carprofen." Medical advice.

Whether or not the first example violates the site's terms of service is a different matter, but it's not medical advice. As I said earlier, the mods may want to prevent this site from being a place where people come to get medical advice or medical information, so they may squelch stuff other than just asking for or giving medical advice.

 

[sumstorm]

The recent thread in the pre-veterinary forum about a cat's behavior at feeding time got a ton of responses - ALL with advice on how to modify the cat's behavior and not a SINGLE one that suggested the behavior could be medically related and that the OP should have taken her cat to a vet instead of seeking advice on this forum. Even some people in this thread who are saying that the dog behavior question crossed the line, readily gave advice to the OP on that thread. I'm just sayin'....

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=625144&highlight=cat+behavior

I thought (but could be completly wrong) that separation anxiety is actually a diagnosis in vet med. I am not sure what the diagnosis would be for cat wants food on schedule.

 

[tkim]

"My dog has DJD and takes carprofen." Not medical advice.

"You dog has DJD, maybe you should give him carprofen." Medical advice.

Whether or not the first example violates the site's terms of service is a different matter, but it's not medical advice. As I said earlier, the mods may want to prevent this site from being a place where people come to get medical advice or medical information, so they may squelch stuff other than just asking for or giving medical advice.

If personal experiences that involve medical treatment are considered medical advice then it should be spelled out. As it stands it is not. So when some threads soliciting personal experiences are closed as an example of soliciting medical advice and others aren't it causes confusion.

There are people who asks for or offer personal experience with medical conditions and treatments which sometimes is closed under the guise of 'medical advice'. Your first example above is not medical advice but at times is considered medical advice and the arbitrary closing of these threads is what's pissing people off.

If someone wants to extract medical advice from someone offering a personal experience how on earth could the site be held liable for that?

 

[slight365]

Those ads are generated using Google's adsense engine. If you aren't a donor, you can't get rid of the ads, since clickthrough of the ads is what pays for the site, if you don't donate.

The mods have no control over what ads appear on the site. If you don't want to see the ads, donate.

*shrug*

One way to get rid of ads is using Adblock Plus. I pay for the bandwidth usage, and I don't pay for ads, so I block them.

As far as mods having no control, they don't. Admins do have control with the plug in package and excluding certain ad types, but with google ads, for instance, it's a never-ending thing. Just use adblock and firefox.

What's funny is I wasn't aware this site had ads, in fact.

 

[InfiniVet]

I reported the behavior post.

To me, it was CLEARLY presented as seeking medical advice for a medical case:
"Here is the pets history, here is the problem, please give me guidance."

I too have respect for behavioral issues, I hate seeing them shrugged off, and I certainly see them as a medical problems, absolutely no different than kidney failure or flea allergy dermatitis!

The poster's good standing within an online forum is absolutely irrelevant, and the advice is for EVERYONE to see.
There is a responsibility there that goes beyond this small band of posters and extends to a vast majority of readers.