Scores that secure an interview to IMG

[jfgavina]

Obviously a score is only a score... But I wonder if there is a "rule in" score that secures an interview to non-US IMGs regardless of their USCE and research.

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[Strawman123]

Obviously a score is only a score... But I wonder if there is a "rule in" score that secures an interview to non-US IMGs regardless of their USCE and research.

There is no score that will rule you in, but plenty of scores that will rule you out.

 

[RadioRads71]

I had 240s on both steps. US IMG. Applied to every program minus Cali and NY, received around 20 interviews

 

[laricb]

I had 240s on both steps. US IMG. Applied to every program minus Cali and NY, received around 20 interviews

Did you match

 

[RadioRads71]

Ended up going on 12 interviews. Matched at #8

 

[jfgavina]

Ended up going on 12 interviews. Matched at #8

may I ask you why you didn't apply for NY programs?

Thanks

 

[Rads312]

please note he said US IMG. Not a fair comparison if you're not a citizen / will need a visa.

 

[RadioRads71]

I didn't notice the "non US IMG" part of the post, my bad.

I did not apply to NY because im a smaller town type of person, and NY is as big as it gets.

 

[fantasticMedStudent]

Obviously a score is only a score... But I wonder if there is a "rule in" score that secures an interview to non-US IMGs regardless of their USCE and research.

I think no score will rule you in and network is most important thing. As a FMG most programs don't even look at your application. That being said if you have a strong mentor, you can interview at lots of Ivy league places. Met with people with 270+ scores ending up at Duke, Upenn, MIR, Yale. All of them talked about a common theme which is network. That being said i would say for more academic places we have a better shot than DO's or US citizens who were unable to secure an allopathic school and went to Caribbean schools etc. as PD's think thy could have secured those positions and FMG could not chose where to born. Lower tier places however can prefer them because they don't want to take care of Visa problems. Academia is all about merits not citizenship.

 

[Rads312]

I think no score will rule you in and network is most important thing. As a FMG most programs don't even look at your application. That being said if you have a strong mentor, you can interview at lots of Ivy league places. Met with people with 270+ scores ending up at Duke, Upenn, MIR, Yale. All of them talked about a common theme which is network. That being said i would say for more academic places we have a better shot than DO's or US citizens who were unable to secure an allopathic school and went to Caribbean schools etc. as PD's think thy could have secured those positions and FMG could not chose where to born. Lower tier places however can prefer them because they don't want to take care of Visa problems. Academia is all about merits not citizenship.

No. This is the stupidest thing i've ever heard. You're not doing anyone any favors by spreading that BS.

DO's , and even american IMG's from better carrib schools ( Ross, SGU ), will still have a better shot when compared to non visa holding FMGs at academic institutions , especially if they score in the 270's, have research/mentors and connections. Agreed that an occasional superstar IMG with a mentor, tons of connections, and research at a big name institution will have a better shot than a DO with average scores who is just applying normally - but lets be honest, that's not the typical situation. Just about anywhere will prefer a strong DO or carrib grad with citizenship + high scores over a foreign non visa MD.

That's the truth.

 

[fantasticMedStudent]

No. This is the stupidest thing i've ever heard. You're not doing anyone any favors by spreading that BS.

DO's , and even american IMG's from better carrib schools ( Ross, SGU ), will still have a better shot when compared to non visa holding FMGs at academic institutions , especially if they score in the 270's, have research/mentors and connections. Agreed that an occasional superstar IMG with a mentor, tons of connections, and research at a big name institution will have a better shot than a DO with average scores who is just applying normally - but lets be honest, that's not the typical situation. Just about anywhere will prefer a strong DO or carrib grad with citizenship + high scores over a foreign non visa MD.

That's the truth.

Actually, i will just tell what you say is BS, and " That's the truth" was not level 1 evidence when i last checked.

What you say does not make any sense. It is very hard for me to imagine that any sane PD at big institution would prefer a carrib grad/DO over FMG. They would only go for merits. True chances are higher to match especially for lower tier programs and community programs and lets speak truth most of the DO's and carrib grads go these places. I think a FMG with a green card would have a better shot than those DO's and carrib grads as PD's of these programs tend to be very practical!

 

[Rads312]

Actually, i will just tell what you say is BS, and " That's the truth" was not level 1 evidence when i last checked.

What you say does not make any sense. It is very hard for me to imagine that any sane PD at big institution would prefer a carrib grad/DO over FMG. They would only go for merits. True chances are higher to match especially for lower tier programs and community programs and lets speak truth most of the DO's and carrib grads go these places. I think a FMG with a green card would have a better shot than those DO's and carrib grads as PD's of these programs tend to be very practical!

duuuuude what alternate reality do you live in regarding merits?

Look - my point is simply this, "big name" academic institutions are not likely to take DO's, IMG's, or FMG's. They will take a weak US Md over any of those.

But if I'm humoring you , unless you're talking about some internationally renowned , published superstar FMG that is a radiologist in their home country, no PD will care about their "merit" - Your argument about merit goes flying out the window depending on the TYPE of applicant you are comparing. All PDs Are about is board scores, research, and where you went to school. They aren't going to sit and ponder about why you may or may not have worked harder than a DO bc you didn't have the option to go to a US md school.

Yes, a DO with a 220 has no shot at a big name center compared to an FMG with a 270 and loads of research. That is obvious.

My point is, if you make all things equal, i.e, board scores and research etc, 9 times out of 10 the PD will prefer the DO or IMG over the FMG. This is true over any specialty , not just radiology.

You're just stipulating based on what you heard and what you think -

I speak from experience - I am actively involved in our city's resident chapter / radiology group. There are zero, absolutely zero FMG's at the "big name" institutions. Tons of them in nuclear medicine and fellowship pathway.

There is 1 DO at an academic center - otherwise there are a few DO's and 1 carrib grad at community programs. I'm speaking from a large sample size.

I'm not trying to argue about something pointless here. Big name institutions will take an MD with a 220 over any of us all day every day.

But to say they would take A non US FMG over an IMG , and especially a DO - that's a lie, and you shouldn't spread false information. The best chances FMG's have are at rural community programs - if you don't believe me, look at the resident roster for a place like UCLA or Rush or Miami vs a random community program in Ohio.

 

[fantasticMedStudent]

Hi. I'm an international student and I have quite recently begun to seriously consider radiology (in the US, that is). I'm a year 2 and have 4 years until graduation. This gives me a lot of time to prepare for applying abroad. I know that radiology is a highly competitive field, but I feel like if I double down on radiology by year 2, I can make it happen, even at a high level program. I was wondering about a few things though.

There are a lot of fantastic interventional radiologists at my home program. I will start to shadow one next year and plan to eventually turn it into a more clinical observership and an internship eventually. In my home country, rules regarding students touching patients is a bit more lax. With this, by the time I apply for residency, I will probably have a very deep understanding of radiology for a student.

With this plan, I will eventually start to do radiology research (having obtained enough knowledge to do so) and get my name on some publications. On top of that, in my later clinical years I'll go do radiology electives/observerships in the US (Our professor has worked extensively with US physicians and can probably arrange me something). So with this plan, I'm planning on becoming a very competitive applicant with an intense focus on radiology. I'm also planning on taking Step 1 next year to score a good score (will taking Step 1 in year 3, getting a good score and applying for residency 4-5 years later impact me negatively?).

All things considered, if I can execute this roadmap, would you consider me likely to land a top or a high second tier rads program in the US? Or is being an IMG still an almost insurmountable obstacle, like it is in neurosurgery? I recognize that I have to do a prelim year first. Will my competitiveness as a radiology applicant have zero effect on matching the prelim position and should I invest in some internal medicine to land that position as well?

Thanks for the help.

duuuuude what alternate reality do you live in regarding merits?

Look - my point is simply this, "big name" academic institutions are not likely to take DO's, IMG's, or FMG's. They will take a weak US Md over any of those.

But if I'm humoring you , unless you're talking about some internationally renowned , published superstar FMG that is a radiologist in their home country, no PD will care about their "merit" - Your argument about merit goes flying out the window depending on the TYPE of applicant you are comparing. All PDs Are about is board scores, research, and where you went to school. They aren't going to sit and ponder about why you may or may not have worked harder than a DO bc you didn't have the option to go to a US md school.

Yes, a DO with a 220 has no shot at a big name center compared to an FMG with a 270 and loads of research. That is obvious.

My point is, if you make all things equal, i.e, board scores and research etc, 9 times out of 10 the PD will prefer the DO or IMG over the FMG. This is true over any specialty , not just radiology.

You're just stipulating based on what you heard and what you think -

I speak from experience - I am actively involved in our city's resident chapter / radiology group. There are zero, absolutely zero FMG's at the "big name" institutions. Tons of them in nuclear medicine and fellowship pathway.

There is 1 DO at an academic center - otherwise there are a few DO's and 1 carrib grad at community programs. I'm speaking from a large sample size.

I'm not trying to argue about something pointless here. Big name institutions will take an MD with a 220 over any of us all day every day.

But to say they would take A non US FMG over an IMG , and especially a DO - that's a lie, and you shouldn't spread false information. The best chances FMG's have are at rural community programs - if you don't believe me, look at the resident roster for a place like UCLA or Rush or Miami vs a random community program in Ohio.

Well, my point was not that actually. Alternative facts are becoming very trendy i assume. First of all Rush does not suit for a large academic center. It is mid/lower tier university program, UCLA/Emory is known for being non-IMG friendly but they would not prefer a DO/IMG either, I can list academic places on top of my head which are FMG friendly and not DO or carrib friendly. For example MGH has 1-2 FMG per year and no DO/Carrib. I think solid FMG's have better shot at these places when compared th DO's/IMG's. Looking at a large population could be useful but if you already make up your mind to what to say there is no point. I don't see any point continue to arguing.

 

[Rads312]

Well, my point was not that actually. Alternative facts are becoming very trendy i assume. First of all Rush does not suit for a large academic center. It is mid/lower tier university program, UCLA/Emory is known for being non-IMG friendly but they would not prefer a DO/IMG either, I can list academic places on top of my head which are FMG friendly and not DO or carrib friendly. For example MGH has 1-2 FMG per year and no DO/Carrib. I think solid FMG's have better shot at these places when compared th DO's/IMG's. Looking at a large population could be useful but if you already make up your mind to what to say there is no point. I don't see any point continue to arguing.

We can agree to disagree -

That being said, you consider Rush low tier?

I may be a DO so I wasn't surprised they didn't interview me, but many of my MD friends didn't get interviews either. For those of us in reality, it is a very well respected academic program.

You've got a huge ego man. I look forward to seeing where ( and if ) you end up on match day.

 

[fantasticMedStudent]

We can agree to disagree -

That being said, you consider Rush low tier?

I may be a DO so I wasn't surprised they didn't interview me, but many of my MD friends didn't get interviews either. For those of us in reality, it is a very well respected academic program.

You've got a huge ego man. I look forward to seeing where ( and if ) you end up on match day.

Mid-Low is not equal to low tier, Rush is well respected for solid IR (which has a FMG PD). Rush has a very personable and great PD. DR is realistically Mid-low tier when compared with university programs all over the country, research output almost non-existent, this is just realistic. I don't have a huge ego but i am afraid you have a small brain. Throwing insults all over, unfortunately people are becoming more prone to saying outrageous things in this day and age.

I am expecting to match a community program and any solid academic place would be amazing if i am lucky.

 

[PL198]

Actually, i will just tell what you say is BS, and " That's the truth" was not level 1 evidence when i last checked.

What you say does not make any sense. It is very hard for me to imagine that any sane PD at big institution would prefer a carrib grad/DO over FMG. They would only go for merits. True chances are higher to match especially for lower tier programs and community programs and lets speak truth most of the DO's and carrib grads go these places. I think a FMG with a green card would have a better shot than those DO's and carrib grads as PD's of these programs tend to be very practical!

no

 

[Rads312]

no

Thank you. Was losing my mind over here.

 

[deleted564680]

The top 10-20 rads programs prefer MDs and the ones in the northeast will take an FMG over a DO. This is usually not due to "own merits" or some sort of weird "I can't help where I'm being born." It's simply due to the fact that some FMGs have toiled in research for a long time, were radiologists/PhDs, and/or many of those programs have FMGs on staff and no DOs on staff.

Frankly, "fantasticmedstudent" needs to just feel lucky that he/she could go to med school on the cheap and come here for the best training in the world. I certainly wouldn't go to another person's country and try to inflame citizens there.

The vast majority of radiology programs will take DO > FMG.

 

[fantasticMedStudent]

no

Thank you. Was losing my mind over here.

I agree as well, DO's and IMG's are perfect they always secure best spot throughout the country. Any PD would like to take them even with crappy scores over a hardworking FMG.

Hope this can stroke your egos

 

[Rads312]

I agree as well, DO's and IMG's are perfect they always secure best spot throughout the country. Any PD would like to take them even with crappy scores over a hardworking FMG.

Hope this can stroke your egos

Yes. That's what I said.

Just continue to be a total jerk. Did I mention - your grasp of English is awful.

Continue to live in FMG delusion land. One day you will be a PD at Harvard also, and you will pick all the FMG's to match bc they are all brilliant compared to us DO's and IMG's

Really bright of you - keep s*itting on those of us who are living and working here, in hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt, to practice.

I look forward to a day when our local demand and supply in medicine are equivalent.

 

[fantasticMedStudent]

Yes. That's what I said.

Just continue to be a total jerk. Did I mention - your grasp of English is awful.

Continue to live in FMG delusion land. One day you will be a PD at Harvard also, and you will pick all the FMG's to match bc they are all brilliant compared to us DO's and IMG's

Really bright of you - keep s*itting on those of us who are living and working here, in hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt, to practice.

I look forward to a day when our local demand and supply in medicine are equivalent.

I think best answer to these slanderous claims is to wait until match and see what happens. if demand and supply is equivalent, i would guess Non-US Allopathic students such as yourself would be first victims. Don't be so fast.

If i were a PD i would definitely choose a hardworking FMG over all-day long complaining DO/IMG about
having debts. Maybe we should enter how much debt we have to ERAS. Dude stop complaining and work to have a better CV in a fair competition rather than crying all day long about FMG's.

Good Luck!

 

[IR_2016]

If i were a PD i would definitely choose a hardworking FMG over all-day long complaining DO/IMG about
having debts. Maybe we should enter how much debt we have to ERAS. Dude stop complaining and work to have a better CV in a fair competition rather than crying all day long about FMG's.

Good Luck!

I just regretfully read all of your posts in this thread. Your obvious inferiority complex is unbearable. Why do you continuously imply that "hardworking FMGs" are any more hardworking or deserving than hardworking DOs and IMGs?

 

[Gadofosveset]

I think best answer to these slanderous claims is to wait until match and see what happens. if demand and supply is equivalent, i would guess Non-US Allopathic students such as yourself would be first victims. Don't be so fast.

If i were a PD i would definitely choose a hardworking FMG over all-day long complaining DO/IMG about
having debts. Maybe we should enter how much debt we have to ERAS. Dude stop complaining and work to have a better CV in a fair competition rather than crying all day long about FMG's.

Good Luck!

Academia is not about "merit" (whatever that's defined as), it's about getting the most productivity out of a limited budget. That's "merit". Interpret that how you want.

In radiology, interpersonal skills and merits/work ethic are both necessary, but neither is sufficient on its own. A productive but toxic FMG at an academic institution will be running uphill and it will only get steeper as one moves up the ranks. This is somewhat institution dependent.

In response to the OP (I recognize the question is old), there is no rule-in score, but a higher score will get people curious about you. Step 1 is standardized in the U.S. in terms of timing (and most carribean schools, I think), but it's not standardized elsewhere, so FMG step scores are not really comparable to AMG step scores. Whether I really take an IMG step score seriously depends on how closely the timing of the exam models the AMG experience.

If you show up to an interview with a high step score and a chip on your shoulder, you might as well have saved the money traveling to the interview.

CubsFan10's points are right on target. FMGs are more prevalent in the NE, but a lot of this is due to:
1) These programs are familiar with intricacies of the visa process
2) These programs need a lot of trainees
3) Some of these programs have an unfair bias against DOs
4) There's a halo effect because the best FMGs often stay on staff, but it's easier for an FMG to stay on staff in these areas because they don't have to reconcile a lower tier salary with a debt load

 

[Rads312]

I think best answer to these slanderous claims is to wait until match and see what happens. if demand and supply is equivalent, i would guess Non-US Allopathic students such as yourself would be first victims. Don't be so fast.

If i were a PD i would definitely choose a hardworking FMG over all-day long complaining DO/IMG about
having debts. Maybe we should enter how much debt we have to ERAS. Dude stop complaining and work to have a better CV in a fair competition rather than crying all day long about FMG's.

Good Luck!

No.
Once supply meets demand - applicants without visas will be the first to go. Everyone knows that.

I'm not competing with you - I'm halfway through residency.

Not sure why you think you're the only hardworking one. Residency is going to be a wake up call for you.

 

[PL198]

I agree as well, DO's and IMG's are perfect they always secure best spot throughout the country. Any PD would like to take them even with crappy scores over a hardworking FMG.

Hope this can stroke your egos

the DOs you are competing with as an IMG aren't the crappy DOs. idk how it strokes my ego.

I think best answer to these slanderous claims is to wait until match and see what happens. if demand and supply is equivalent, i would guess Non-US Allopathic students such as yourself would be first victims. Don't be so fast.

If i were a PD i would definitely choose a hardworking FMG over all-day long complaining DO/IMG about
having debts. Maybe we should enter how much debt we have to ERAS. Dude stop complaining and work to have a better CV in a fair competition rather than crying all day long about FMG's.

Good Luck!

Yes there's no such thing as a hard working do. /s Dude the dos who match at ccf, Upmc and other high level programs are extremely legit. Great scores, great rotation performance, research, etc.

You think you're competing against an average do. You aren't.

Yes if the fmg had a 260 + research then maybe they have an edge over a 220 do student. But that isn't the comparison. It's a 260 do vs a 260 fmg and everyone here besides you knows who wins that battle in every location besides the wonky NE.

 

[fantasticMedStudent]

the DOs you are competing with as an IMG aren't the crappy DOs. idk how it strokes my ego.


Yes there's no such thing as a hard working do. /s Dude the dos who match at ccf, Upmc and other high level programs are extremely legit. Great scores, great rotation performance, research, etc.

You think you're competing against an average do. You aren't.

Yes if the fmg had a 260 + research then maybe they have an edge over a 220 do student. But that isn't the comparison. It's a 260 do vs a 260 fmg and everyone here besides you knows who wins that battle in every location besides the wonky NE.

Calling NE programs wonky, wow. Dude relax, yes you win/rule whatever. I have a green card, so visa wont be an issue for a Wonky NE programs hopefully. Interesting to see how people can become xenophobic in minutes.

Disgrace!

 

[IR_2016]

Calling NE programs wonky, wow. Dude relax, yes you win/rule whatever. I have a green card, so visa wont be an issue for a Wonky NE programs hopefully. Interesting to see how people can become xenophobic in minutes.

Disgrace!

No one here is xenophobic. You're just projecting. Your posts are riddle with toxic, offensive statements, and the responses you're getting should be expected.

 

[fantasticMedStudent]

No one here is xenophobic. You're just projecting. Your posts are riddle with toxic, offensive statements, and the responses you're getting should be expected.

Here is a thread you can find riddle with toxic, offensive statements "what's with al the IMG posts?"

I simply put a perspective that FMG's have better chances with big name "Wonky" institutions. Simply look at the rosters of below "wonky" institutions and than lots of people with i assume with a personality problem began going ape ****. You may disagree with it, cool but just sending demoralizing messages to someone posting and asking for advice on this thread on the basis that she/he is a FMG is just pitiful even more if you have higher chances to match chances as you argue.

I agree some of the arguments above by Gadofosveset but the level is so low that this has been far from being productive.

 

[LadyRad]

Here is a thread you can find riddle with toxic, offensive statements "what's with al the IMG posts?"

I simply put a perspective that FMG's have better chances with big name "Wonky" institutions. Simply look at the rosters of below "wonky" institutions and than lots of people with i assume with a personality problem began going ape ****. You may disagree with it, cool but just sending demoralizing messages to someone posting and asking for advice on this thread on the basis that she/he is a FMG is just pitiful even more if you have higher chances to match chances as you argue.

I agree some of the arguments above by Gadofosveset but the level is so low that this has been far from being productive.

I seriously advise you to seek help for the rage you have against others. There are several FMGs (myself included) that have moved to the US to get better education, do valuable research, and contribute to the way radiology is practiced. With decent scores, and several research publications/presentations, and good LORs, we have got interviews at top places, as well. I haven't come across any "strong" FMG applicant as arrogant as you. No one here said anything xenophobic or discriminatory, except you.
Getting a residency spot at decent programs is not a privilege you ask for. You should earn that.
Good luck with the Match results, and a potential residency with such an attitude!

 

[Rads312]

Here is a thread you can find riddle with toxic, offensive statements "what's with al the IMG posts?"

I simply put a perspective that FMG's have better chances with big name "Wonky" institutions. Simply look at the rosters of below "wonky" institutions and than lots of people with i assume with a personality problem began going ape ****. You may disagree with it, cool but just sending demoralizing messages to someone posting and asking for advice on this thread on the basis that she/he is a FMG is just pitiful even more if you have higher chances to match chances as you argue.

I agree some of the arguments above by Gadofosveset but the level is so low that this has been far from being productive.

Overall man I don't think the problem was you saying that IMG's are doing well or getting interviews at good places . As I referenced myself, radiology has become more friendly to ( US and non US ) IMG's which has been puzzling to those of us that were in medical school at a time where that wasn't the norm.

As a DO I had to do well on both sets of boards, publish research, network like crazy, and overall just be a crazy person just to MATCH radiology.

Coming on here with your "FMG's do better at elite institutions than American DO's or IMG's" attitude is what ticked everyone off. Instead of being grateful that you have an opportunity to potentially match in the sub specialty, you focused on implying why you're better than the other subset of non American MD applicants. Wake up call: you're not.

 

[doctalaughs]

Sorry fantasticmedstudent, you are just wrong. Go pull up the nbme match stats and look at the last 10 years. For every specialty american grads have a HUGE edge over FMGs. Sure, there are fantastic FMGs with great stats that overcome the odds but it's starting with a large handicap. And you dont need to believe anyone- just look at the match data.

As the number of med school slots increase in the usa compared to the residency slots (a big trend in the last 5 years) the FMGs (and IMGs) are the first ones pushed out. You can argue thats not fair -but it's reality. And many argue that since US taxpayers (and grads) paid to educate these docs, it's only fair they recoup their investment. You can also argue it's not fair to "steal" grads who are products of other countries tax systems.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[Rads312]

Not to resurrect a month old thread, but out of sheer curiosity , now that match is over, how did those of you posting here fare? Looked like there were still some decent opportunities for IMG's but not as much as the past few years.

 

[qxrt]

But to say they would take A non US FMG over an IMG , and especially a DO - that's a lie, and you shouldn't spread false information. The best chances FMG's have are at rural community programs - if you don't believe me, look at the resident roster for a place like UCLA or Rush or Miami vs a random community program in Ohio.

UCLA actually has an FMG or two in their radiology residency and no DO's/IMG's...so it may not exactly be supporting your argument.

 

[everythingisAWESOMEandRAD]

US IMG, 250's and pass, applied to all programs except CA, NY, MA, MD, CT, DE, NH, pretty much the entire northeast because I just can't live there/cold. Interviews at 12 programs, ranked all, matched #1 and in my home state.