Salary

[lateness]

Dont' forget, once you DO have money, you can write off a LOT of it from pre-tax $. 401k or 403b, FLEX, your mortgage, school loans interest, etc. You'll save multiples of thousands of dollars that way...........

Q

you are right, there are several ways to write off...
and also don't forget the benefits you get from referring to specialists, and from pharm companies too.

---

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[MiesVanDerMom]

First off, I want to say that 160K is enough for me to live off and I am not complaining about the salary for an FP.

Second, this is the problem I have with your statement. These "regular" working people didn't go to college + med school + residency (dealing with crap the whole way), that makes a huge difference. I don't care what anyone says, physicians deserve to make over 100,000 and shouldn't feel bad that they make more than someone with MUCH less training/schooling.

yeah working class people don't have to deal with crap. working in a low paying job isn't nearly as stressful as school. you totally deserve more money than them. obviously if you don't go to college you're dumb and lazy

Is that what I said?

Somebodies a little too sensitive

Doctors deserve money...period! That is all I said, you want to read further into it, be my guest, but don't put words into my mouth! If you want to refute the fact that docs deserve +100K plus, go ahead and try. Do teachers deserve more than they get, yes. Do cops deserve more, yes...and so on. I never said any of what you infered from my straight forward and understandable comments, please come back when you are less defensive

you're plainly saying doctors deserve to make more than the working class. I didn't put words in your mouth. I merely pointed out their absurdity. Please come back when you are less confused about what it is you believe

 

[iatrosB]

I didn't put words in your mouth.

Then please "bold" the part of my post that said "if you don't go to college, you're dumb and lazy".



Hmm, good luck with that one.


Again, someone is a little to sensitive/now defensive.

 

[iatrosB]

you're plainly saying doctors deserve to make more than the working class. I didn't put words in your mouth. I merely pointed out their absurdity. Please come back when you are less confused about what it is you believe

At what point did I say that physicians deserve to make more...I said they shouldn't FEEL BAD ABOUT MAKING MORE...I'll stand by that any day!

 

[Faebinder]

you're plainly saying doctors deserve to make more than the working class. I didn't put words in your mouth. I merely pointed out their absurdity. Please come back when you are less confused about what it is you believe

Ya, know.. I'll come out and say it..

YES DOCTORS DESERVE MORE MONEY THAN THE REGULAR WORKING CLASS!!

More crap to put up with.... YES... I went through engineering and held a job for a couple of years before I went to med school... During graduate and undergraduate school i held multiple jobs at night.... THERE IS SO MUCH LESS HASSLE THAN MED SCHOOL!

The loans you have by the time you are 30 and out of residency is like an investment..... did the regular working man take 200k from the bank and invest them and not expect a starting return till he/she is 30?

Does the regular working person have to maintain a license and continued education? Really? That manager at chilis with a bachelors degree in marine biology maintains his education? He took multiple boards and multiple inservice exams to maintain and upgrade his performance?

Come on let us be real a little here.... monetary/life-time risks and commitments require rewards and the average worker does not compare to the physicians commitment of their years of their life and money/loan risks. While he was partying on Saturday night at the age of 22, the med student was reading a book or on call in a hospital.... You got a compensation for that? How about when sitting down and studying for the boards during the summer? Or how about when you are denied your umpteenth attempt to rent an apartment cause your credit is shot by the huge loans on you even though you got into a residency? You might argue others have monetary problems too... yes and occasionally the moon shines very bright at night but it can never shine as much as the sun.

Heck even after you are done with residency.. you see the average physician working MORE hours than the average worker. So by that standard alone they deserve more.

There I said it....

 

[Tn Family MD]

Damn right!

 

[Miami_med]

The REALLY politically incorrect statement would be to point out that most physicians could work blue collar jobs, but most blue collar workers couldn't be physicians. A physician is a rare commodity. The moral value of a physicians work may be no different, but the monetary value unquestioningly is. If it wasn't, physicians would be paid less, or blue collar workers would be paid more.

As a former warehouse worker, landscaper, and even Home Depot forklift operator, I feel qualified to keep my opinion.

 

[tatabox80]

Ya, know.. I'll come out and say it..

YES DOCTORS DESERVE MORE MONEY THAN THE REGULAR WORKING CLASS!!

More crap to put up with.... YES... I went through engineering and held a job for a couple of years before I went to med school... During graduate and undergraduate school i held multiple jobs at night.... THERE IS SO MUCH LESS HASSLE THAN MED SCHOOL!

The loans you have by the time you are 30 and out of residency is like an investment..... did the regular working man take 200k from the bank and invest them and not expect a starting return till he/she is 30?

Does the regular working person have to maintain a license and continued education? Really? That manager at chilis with a bachelors degree in marine biology maintains his education? He took multiple boards and multiple inservice exams to maintain and upgrade his performance?

Come on let us be real a little here.... monetary/life-time risks and commitments require rewards and the average worker does not compare to the physicians commitment of their years of their life and money/loan risks. While he was partying on Saturday night at the age of 22, the med student was reading a book or on call in a hospital.... You got a compensation for that? How about when sitting down and studying for the boards during the summer? Or how about when you are denied your umpteenth attempt to rent an apartment cause your credit is shot by the huge loans on you even though you got into a residency? You might argue others have monetary problems too... yes and occasionally the moon shines very bright at night but it can never shine as much as the sun.

Heck even after you are done with residency.. you see the average physician working MORE hours than the average worker. So by that standard alone they deserve more.

There I said it....

I think many of the individuals that make statements such as "doctors don't deserve to make more than the working class" are often people who are still in undergrad and still haven't gone throught medical school or residency.

 

[sddoc]

I'm sorry, but I have to go with the crowd on this one. I have spent $200K on my education. I'm never home with my husband, and when I am, I'm too tired to even have a normal conversation. I look like crap most of the time, because I can't even find time to get a haircut. I'm earning a little bit of money for the first time in 4 years, but it's only slightly more than what I was making before I went to med school. If you calculate how much a resident makes per hour, I make waaaaaay less than I did before going to medical school. Granted, I signed up for this, and I love it. However, I would be insane if I didn't expect some type of compensation for this. Do I deserve to earn more than someone who never paid a dime for school, who works an 8 hour shift with 2 scheduled breaks and a paid lunch, and who gets paid overtime for every second over their 40 hour work week? You're darn right I do.

 

[Spine Specialist]

I just thought you guys would be interested....


http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/334/7587/236

 

[rossuniversity]

sheraz?

 

[jdgmu33]

Where does one learn to run an efficient practice? I have some free time before residency, is there some stuff I can read on business management that would help me do this?

Anywhere from $30,000 to $300,000+ (those that I know of, anyway.) The person who's only making $30K/yr. is an aberration (really bad practice management skills, and unwilling to learn/change)...so don't read too much into that.



The FPs in my group earn more than the national average.



The national average is around $160K/year. I haven't seen any statistics regarding what percentage earn more than $200K/year, but there are certainly plenty who do.



I think that estimate is for Medicare, after expenses. If you have a good payor mix (not just Medicare), code properly, and run your practice efficiently, it'll be higher than that.

 

[deleted87716]

Where does one learn to run an efficient practice? I have some free time before residency, is there some stuff I can read on business management that would help me do this?

Read Family Practice Management. It's available online.

 

[Jack Daniel]

If I made 200K a year as a physician, no one is going to make me feel bad about it....So I say boo-hoo to those that think physicians make too much...

When I hear people yapping that docs make too much $, my first urge is to slap them. As a beleaguered first-year, I'm going through tons of hurt now and I imagine it only gets worse as you have the added responsibility of patient care.

 

[deleted87716]

When I hear people yapping that docs make too much $, my first urge is to slap them.

You'll like this, then. An oldie but a goodie.

A column by Mike Royko
(c) 1993, Tribune Media Services, Inc.

EXERCISE IN STUPIDITY

On a stupidity scale, a recent poll about doctors' earnings almost scores a perfect brain-dead 10. Commissioned by Families USA, a whiny consumers group, the poll tells us that most Americans believe doctors make too much money. The pollsters also asked what a fair income would be for physicians. Those polled said, oh, about $80,000 a year would be OK.

How generous. How sporting. How stupid.

Why is this poll stupid? Because it is based on resentment and envy. You could conduct the same kind of poll about any group that earns $100,000-plus and get the same results. Since the majority of Americans don't make those bucks, they assume those who do are stealing it from them.

It's also stupid because it didn't ask key questions, such as: Do you know how much education and training it takes to become a physician? If those polled said they didn't know, they should have been disqualified. If they gave the wrong answers, they should have been dropped. What good are their views on how much a doctor should earn if they don't know what it takes to become a doctor?

Or maybe the question should have been phrased this way: "How much should a person earn if he or she must (a) get excellent grades and a fine educational foundation in high school in order to (b) be accepted by a good college and spend four years taking courses heavy in math, physics, chemistry and other lab work and maintain a 3.5 average or better, and (c) spend four more years of grinding study in medical school, with the 3rd and 4th years in clinical training, working 80 to 100 hours a week, and (d) spend another year as a low-pay, hard-work intern, and (e) put in another 3 to 10 years of post-graduate training, depending on specialty and (f) maybe wind up $100,000 in debt after school and (g) then work an average of 60 hours a week, with many family doctors putting in 70 hours or more until they retire or fall over?"

As you have probably guessed by now, I have considerably more respect for doctors than does the law firm of Clinton and Clinton, and all the lawyers they have called together to remake America's health care. Based on what doctors contribute to society, they are far more useful than the power-happy, ego-tripping, program-spewing, social tinkerers who will probably give us a medical plan that is to health what Clinton's first budget is to frugality.

Of course doctors are well compensated. They should be. Americans now live longer than ever. But who is responsible for our longevity--lawyers, Congress, or the guy flipping burgers in a McDonald's? No, it's doctors. And they prolong our lives despite our having become a nation of self-indulgent, lard-butted, TV-gaping couch cabbages. Of course, you didn't hear President Clinton or Super Spouse say that.

But instead of trying to turn the medical profession into villains, they might have been more honest if they had said: "Let us talk about medical care and one of the biggest problems we have. That problem is you, my fellow American. Yes, you, eating too much and eating the wrong foods; many of you guzzling too much hooch; still puffing away at $2.50 a pack; getting your daily exercise by lumbering from the fridge to the microwave to the couch; doing dope and bringing crack babies into the world; filling emergency rooms with gunshot victims; engaging in unsafe sex and catching a deadly disease while blaming the world for not finding an instant cure.

"You and your habits, not the doctors, are the single biggest health problem in this country. If anything, it is amazing that the docs keep you alive as long as they do. In fact, I don't understand how they can stand looking at your blubbery bods all day.

"So as your president, I call upon you to stop whining and start living cleanly. Now I must go get myself a triple cheesy-greasy with double fries. Do as I say, not as I do."

But for those who truly believe that doctors are overpaid, there is another solution: Don't use them. You don't feel well? Then have Rev. Bubba lay his hands upon your head and declare you fit. Or there is the do-it-yourself approach. Chest pains? Sit in front of a mirror, make a slit here, a slit there, and pop in a few valves. Going to have a kid? Why throw your money at that overpaid sawbones, so he can buy a better car and a bigger house than you will ever have? Just have the kid the old-fashioned way. Squat and do it. And if it survives, you can go to the library and find a book on how to give it its shots.

Meanwhile, has anyone done a poll on how much pollsters should earn?

 

[Faebinder]

But for those who truly believe that doctors are overpaid, there is another solution: Don't use them. You don't feel well? Then have Rev. Bubba lay his hands upon your head and declare you fit. Or there is the do-it-yourself approach. Chest pains? Sit in front of a mirror, make a slit here, a slit there, and pop in a few valves. Going to have a kid? Why throw your money at that overpaid sawbones, so he can buy a better car and a bigger house than you will ever have? Just have the kid the old-fashioned way. Squat and do it. And if it survives, you can go to the library and find a book on how to give it its shots.

You made me smile... great article.

 

[MiesVanDerMom]

this is why people don't like doctors

 

[sophiejane]

You know, I've been thinking about this. Sorry in advance for the rant.

I am so sick of hearing people whine about how much we suffer as medical students and residents. Yes, we should be well compensated, and we are. But it shouldn't be payback for all that "suffering" we did along the way, it should be because our jobs are important, and it is because we are fortunate enough to be doing this job in the wealthiest nation in the world.

Do we have any idea at all how fortunate we are? We are sitting here in the richest country in the world, the most privileged of the privileged, and all we can do is b&*ch and moan about how mistreated we are. Please.

Do we forget that there are millions of people who work 12-16-18 hour days and STILL have nothing to show for it? They still can't feed their families and they still don't have a safe place to sleep. Do you have any idea how arrogant it sounds to the person who would do anything for the chance to get an education to complain that we have to pay for ours with borrowed money?

And oh, the sacrifices our families make. Okay, we miss a little league game or are late to dinner now and then. They are well fed and well clothed and loved. This is more than so many will ever have.

We study long hours, we work long hours. We go into debt. But at the end of it is the promise of making a fine living (fabulous, unimaginable wealth is $100K/year to most of the world's population).

Let's see if we can find a sympathetic ear among the generations of families who live off garbage dumps in India. Or the sweat-shop laborers in Thailand.

Step back, folks. Look at the big picture. Ask yourself if that pittance you get as a resident really something to complain about. Suck it up for a few years. At the end of it you will lead a charmed life others can't even fathom.

 

[Marigold]

You know, I've been thinking about this. Sorry in advance for the rant.

I am so sick of hearing people whine about how much we suffer as medical students and residents. Yes, we should be well compensated, and we are. But it shouldn't be payback for all that "suffering" we did along the way, it should be because our jobs are important, and it is because we are fortunate enough to be doing this job in the wealthiest nation in the world.

Do we have any idea at all how fortunate we are? We are sitting here in the richest country in the world, the most privileged of the privileged, and all we can do is b&*ch and moan about how mistreated we are. Please.

Do we forget that there are millions of people who work 12-16-18 hour days and STILL have nothing to show for it? They still can't feed their families and they still don't have a safe place to sleep. Do you have any idea how arrogant it sounds to the person who would do anything for the chance to get an education to complain that we have to pay for ours with borrowed money?

And oh, the sacrifices our families make. Okay, we miss a little league game or are late to dinner now and then. They are well fed and well clothed and loved. This is more than so many will ever have.

We study long hours, we work long hours. We go into debt. But at the end of it is the promise of making a fine living (fabulous, unimaginable wealth is $100K/year to most of the world's population).

Let's see if we can find a sympathetic ear among the generations of families who live off garbage dumps in India. Or the sweat-shop laborers in Thailand.

Step back, folks. Look at the big picture. Ask yourself if that pittance you get as a resident really something to complain about. Suck it up for a few years. At the end of it you will lead a charmed life others can't even fathom.

*applause*

 

[Trailblazer77]

SophieJane - "Standing Ovation" You win the Oscar.

I met docs in the Czech Republic who made less than the taxi drivers there. This is the case in MANY other countries outside the US/UK/Western Europe. Those guys loved medicine in its purest form. They also genuinely loved people or they sure as he** would NOT have been practicing medicine. We ALL could learn a freaking thing or two from our spoiled-ass entitlement brat-attitudes. Every time we start whining someone should take our lard asses and throw us into a garbage dump in Mexico, India, the Phillipines, etc. where people live out their entire lives for generations.

 

[deleted87716]

I am so sick of hearing people whine about how much we suffer as medical students and residents.

Some people on SDN definitely need to adjust their perspective.

 

[Miami_med]

You know, I've been thinking about this. Sorry in advance for the rant.

I am so sick of hearing people whine about how much we suffer as medical students and residents. Yes, we should be well compensated, and we are. But it shouldn't be payback for all that "suffering" we did along the way, it should be because our jobs are important, and it is because we are fortunate enough to be doing this job in the wealthiest nation in the world.

Do we have any idea at all how fortunate we are? We are sitting here in the richest country in the world, the most privileged of the privileged, and all we can do is b&*ch and moan about how mistreated we are. Please.

Do we forget that there are millions of people who work 12-16-18 hour days and STILL have nothing to show for it? They still can't feed their families and they still don't have a safe place to sleep. Do you have any idea how arrogant it sounds to the person who would do anything for the chance to get an education to complain that we have to pay for ours with borrowed money?

And oh, the sacrifices our families make. Okay, we miss a little league game or are late to dinner now and then. They are well fed and well clothed and loved. This is more than so many will ever have.

We study long hours, we work long hours. We go into debt. But at the end of it is the promise of making a fine living (fabulous, unimaginable wealth is $100K/year to most of the world's population).

Let's see if we can find a sympathetic ear among the generations of families who live off garbage dumps in India. Or the sweat-shop laborers in Thailand.

Step back, folks. Look at the big picture. Ask yourself if that pittance you get as a resident really something to complain about. Suck it up for a few years. At the end of it you will lead a charmed life others can't even fathom.

And this is the problem that I've pointed out many times before. The amount of sacrifice has NOTHING TO DO with how much money a person earns. Physicians should earn good money because they provide a scarce service that demands good remuneration. It has nothing to do with hours worked. I know restaurant managers who put in more hours than residents (I'll exclude some of my surgical colleagues). It's irrelevant. Now, all of the sacrifice provides physicians with those skills, and so the sacrifice is part of the training, but it isn't the reason. My argument is simply don't sell yourself short, accept what you are worth, and you should be angry when some Washington beauracrat attempts to diminish your genuine market value with legislation.

 

[sophiejane]

The amount of sacrifice has NOTHING TO DO with how much money a person earns. Physicians should earn good money because they provide a scarce service that demands good remuneration. It has nothing to do with hours worked. I know restaurant managers who put in more hours than residents (I'll exclude some of my surgical colleagues). It's irrelevant. Now, all of the sacrifice provides physicians with those skills, and so the sacrifice is part of the training, but it isn't the reason.

Very well said.

 

[Jack Daniel]

You know, I've been thinking about this. Sorry in advance for the rant.

I am so sick of hearing people whine about how much we suffer as medical students and residents. Yes, we should be well compensated, and we are. But it shouldn't be payback for all that "suffering" we did along the way, it should be because our jobs are important, and it is because we are fortunate enough to be doing this job in the wealthiest nation in the world.

Do we have any idea at all how fortunate we are? We are sitting here in the richest country in the world, the most privileged of the privileged, and all we can do is b&*ch and moan about how mistreated we are. Please.

Do we forget that there are millions of people who work 12-16-18 hour days and STILL have nothing to show for it? They still can't feed their families and they still don't have a safe place to sleep. Do you have any idea how arrogant it sounds to the person who would do anything for the chance to get an education to complain that we have to pay for ours with borrowed money?

And oh, the sacrifices our families make. Okay, we miss a little league game or are late to dinner now and then. They are well fed and well clothed and loved. This is more than so many will ever have.

We study long hours, we work long hours. We go into debt. But at the end of it is the promise of making a fine living (fabulous, unimaginable wealth is $100K/year to most of the world's population).

Let's see if we can find a sympathetic ear among the generations of families who live off garbage dumps in India. Or the sweat-shop laborers in Thailand.

Step back, folks. Look at the big picture. Ask yourself if that pittance you get as a resident really something to complain about. Suck it up for a few years. At the end of it you will lead a charmed life others can't even fathom.

Nice rant. It's apparent that you're at a point in your life/career that you have some perspective--good for you. You make some very good points.

But the whole, "do you know how fortunate we are" statement is over-the-top. If this statement is taken far enough, just being alive with self-awareness and mental faculties is enough. Why do anything more? No need to ever criticize. You're alive! Rejoice!

Who is seeking sympathy from Thai laborers and Indian homeless? People are posting on a student doctor forum. No one expects a sympathetic ear from them. However, I think people would expect a sympathetic ear from their peers.

 

[sophiejane]

But the whole, "do you know how fortunate we are" statement is over-the-top. If this statement is taken far enough, just being alive with self-awareness and mental faculties is enough.

Yes, but it wasn't taken that far. If you choose to exagerrate it, fine. But I was pretty specific in what I feel we lose sight of when we whine about how hard it is to become a doctor.

 

[Jack Daniel]

Yes, but it wasn't taken that far. If you choose to exagerrate it, fine. But I was pretty specific in what I feel we lose sight of when we whine about how hard it is to become a doctor.

I don't need to exagerrate [sic] at all. You took care of that yourself by referencing the Thai laborers and Indian homeless.

 

[deleted87716]

Who is seeking sympathy from Thai laborers and Indian homeless? People are posting on a student doctor forum. No one expects a sympathetic ear from them. However, I think people would expect a sympathetic ear from their peers.

I think it's safe to assume that if your peers think you're a whiner, the homeless in Thailand and India would probably concur.

 

[Jack Daniel]

I think it's safe to assume that if your peers think you're a whiner, the homeless in Thailand and India would probably concur.

If people think I'm a whiner based on my posts, then obviously they have not spent time around many 3-year-olds.

 

[sophiejane]

If people think I'm a whiner based on my posts, then obviously they have not spent time around many 3-year-olds.

My point exactly. If one has to compare oneself to a 3 year old to find someone more whiny about trivial issues, well, that kind of speaks for itself.

Let's move on, shall we? I'd rather not allow this thread to deteriorate--it was off to a great start.

 

[iatrosB]

Let's move on, shall we? I'd rather not allow this thread to deteriorate--it was off to a great start.

Can't we all just get along...

 

[FPforLife]

My humble opinion is you can't compare apples to oranges. Yes there both fruit bu other than that not to similar. I think when your speaking about salary you have to look at people with equal training/education. Oh wait there aren't any!! Who decides how much one should make for a joint injection, bypass surgery, hernia repair, c-section etc. If you are a lawyer you say I'm pretty good that will be $400 dollars an hour, we don't have this in medicine. The insurance company decides what everything is worth so we get 40-50% of what is billed. I think for me the anual salary is not as big of a deal as the fact that every year we are threatened with a pay cut, it's nonsense. If you asked any other profession how about instead of a pay raise we decrease your pay so that it doesn't even keep up with inflation and rising cost.
I agree with the previous posters that its not how much you make its how much you spend. $160K is great, I just don't want to constantly fight every year to maintain fair market value. Just my opinion.

 

[sophiejane]

If you are a lawyer you say I'm pretty good that will be $400 dollars an hour, we don't have this in medicine. The insurance company decides what everything is worth so we get 40-50% of what is billed.

Interesting...so does that mean you'd be in favor of pay for performance type reimbursement?

The verdict is still out on that for me...I'm not sure what I think about that idea.

 

[Miami_med]

Interesting...so does that mean you'd be in favor of pay for performance type reimbursement?

The verdict is still out on that for me...I'm not sure what I think about that idea.

Pay for performance would be great in a free market system. In the current system, it will be a disaster, because I'm not sure if any of the current payers have a clue as to what good performance actually is.

 

[Jack Daniel]

My point exactly. If one has to compare oneself to a 3 year old to find someone more whiny about trivial issues, well, that kind of speaks for itself.

Let's move on, shall we? I'd rather not allow this thread to deteriorate--it was off to a great start.

Off to a great start, huh? The same one that prompted you into a tirade? This thread doesn't have to deteriorate. I've said nothing (and won't) to lead it down that path. I've simply responded that I didn't like some comments you made in your rant. Kind of the point of an open forum, yes?

BTW, I wasn't comparing myself to a three-year-old. I was implying that some don't seem to understand what whining really is. I haven't seen any whining on this thread.

 

[deleted87716]

If people think I'm a whiner based on my posts, then obviously they have not spent time around many 3-year-olds.

That was a figurative "you." It sounded too formal to write, "if one's peers think one is a whiner..."

 

[deleted87716]

Interesting...so does that mean you'd be in favor of pay for performance type reimbursement?

The verdict is still out on that for me...I'm not sure what I think about that idea.

The devil is in the details. A lot depends on what's being measured. One of the biggest criticisms of P4P is that it tends to shift the focus away from the patient and onto the measurements, encouraging "cookbook medicine." It also creates perverse incentives that actually reduce the quality of care (e.g., motivating some doctors to dismiss all of their diabetics whose HbA1c readings fail to reach goal so the doctor doesn't get penalized financially).

 

[FPforLife]

I am with you sophiejane on the pay for performance, undecided, for some of the reasons KentW stated. It will be interesting to see how this pans out. I think ideally it sounds like an OK idea. My concerns are that anytime you add more regulations/oversight it ends up being a bad thing.

 

[path15]

A pfizer exec told me that his wife - a family med doc practicing in california - only makes 60,000 a year - and he was serious. But, that seems really low?
Any thoughts?

 

[iatrosB]

A pfizer exec told me that his wife - a family med doc practicing in california - only makes 60,000 a year - and he was serious. But, that seems really low?
Any thoughts?

Very possible...she's is probably in a saturated market, works part time, or has horrible practice management. All three are ways to NOT make money in FM, and it happens.

 

[bkpa2med]

Very possible...she's is probably in a saturated market, works part time, or has horrible practice management. All three are ways to NOT make money in FM, and it happens.

I have to agree with iatros here. I'm sure all 3 of these important factors are impacting this doc's income. Remember that coding a 99213 vs a 99214 is a huge difference in pay.

Example: I live in NYC, my FP works 55-60 hrs/week and earns about $200k/yr. Go figure.

 

[The_Sensei]

Example: I live in NYC, my FP works 55-60 hrs/week and earns about $200k/yr. Go figure.

That is horrific! As an anesthesiologist, I work 45-50 hours a week, make $350k and STILL think I should earn more.

By the way............I should

 

[deleted87716]

That is horrific! As an anesthesiologist, I work 45-50 hours a week, make $350k and STILL think I should earn more.

If I had to do your job, I'd want more than that, too.

 

[Jack Daniel]

That is horrific! As an anesthesiologist, I work 45-50 hours a week, make $350k and STILL think I should earn more.

By the way............I should

Careful!
There are those among us who take great offense at such cavalier comments when others in this world live on mere dollars a week.

 

[The_Sensei]

Careful!
There are those among us who take great offense at such cavalier comments when others in this world live on mere dollars a week.

So what? Did those others who "live on mere dollars a week" put in the sweat and tears that I have? Do they deal with the stress I deal with on a daily basis? No, they don't - they deserve the minimum wage they get. Simple Darwinian concepts, my friend: the excellent excel and the mediocre exist in mediocrity. That's life.......

 

[bkpa2med]

Simple Darwinian concepts, my friend: the excellent excel and the mediocre exist in mediocrity. That's life.......

Well said. I agree with you 100%.

 

[cooldreams]

So what? Did those others who "live on mere dollars a week" put in the sweat and tears that I have? Do they deal with the stress I deal with on a daily basis? No, they don't - they deserve the minimum wage they get. Simple Darwinian concepts, my friend: the excellent excel and the mediocre exist in mediocrity. That's life.......

hardly. perhaps in the usa you have some basis of arguement there, but the usa is far from the norm in the world. most who are in a low socio-economic position are there for life, irregardless of the tears and sweat they put into it.

no, thats not darwinism, thats socialism or communism or terrorism....

 

[The_Sensei]

hardly. perhaps in the usa you have some basis of arguement there, but the usa is far from the norm in the world. most who are in a low socio-economic position are there for life, irregardless of the tears and sweat they put into it.

no, thats not darwinism, thats socialism or communism or terrorism....

In a vain attempt to educate you, I'll provide you with some definition of the terms you so loosely throw about:

Dar·win·ism (därw-nzm)
n.
A theory of biological evolution developed by Charles Darwin and others, stating that all species of organisms arise and develop through the natural selection of small, inherited variations that increase the individual's ability to compete, survive, and reproduce. Also called Darwinian theory.

so·cial·ism (ssh-lzm)
n.
1. Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy.
2. The stage in Marxist-Leninist theory intermediate between capitalism and communism, in which collective ownership of the economy under the dictatorship of the proletariat has not yet been successfully achieved.

com·mu·nism (kmy-nzm)
n.
1. A theoretical economic system characterized by the collective ownership of property and by the organization of labor for the common advantage of all members.
2. Communism
a. A system of government in which the state plans and controls the economy and a single, often authoritarian party holds power, claiming to make progress toward a higher social order in which all goods are equally shared by the people.
b. The Marxist-Leninist version of Communist doctrine that advocates the overthrow of capitalism by the revolution of the proletariat.

ter·ror·ism (tr-rzm)
n.
The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.

Okay......now read these definitions and please explain to me how your aforementioned statement makes any sense whatsoever. I'm just really curious.

 

[cooldreams]

In a vain attempt to educate you, I'll provide you with some definition of the terms you so loosely throw about:

Dar·win·ism (därw-nzm)
n.
A theory of biological evolution developed by Charles Darwin and others, stating that all species of organisms arise and develop through the natural selection of small, inherited variations that increase the individual's ability to compete, survive, and reproduce. Also called Darwinian theory.

so·cial·ism (ssh-lzm)
n.
1. Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy.
2. The stage in Marxist-Leninist theory intermediate between capitalism and communism, in which collective ownership of the economy under the dictatorship of the proletariat has not yet been successfully achieved.

com·mu·nism (kmy-nzm)
n.
1. A theoretical economic system characterized by the collective ownership of property and by the organization of labor for the common advantage of all members.
2. Communism
a. A system of government in which the state plans and controls the economy and a single, often authoritarian party holds power, claiming to make progress toward a higher social order in which all goods are equally shared by the people.
b. The Marxist-Leninist version of Communist doctrine that advocates the overthrow of capitalism by the revolution of the proletariat.

ter·ror·ism (tr-rzm)
n.
The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.

Okay......now read these definitions and please explain to me how your aforementioned statement makes any sense whatsoever. I'm just really curious.

i suppose in the same sense that you used darwinism to explain why some people are born into poverty and bill gates is a billionaire through all of his sweat and tears.... where is the biology, mr gas man?

or perhaps in the same sense that you complain about only making 350k for having to work so many hours and yet get on here at midnight and toss around nonsense with doctor wannabes in a pathetic attempt to obviously boost your own ego....

cheers.

 

[cooldreams]

In a vain attempt to educate you, I'll provide you with some definition of the terms you so loosely throw about:

Dar·win·ism (därw-nzm)
n.
A theory of biological evolution developed by Charles Darwin and others, stating that all species of organisms arise and develop through the natural selection of small, inherited variations that increase the individual's ability to compete, survive, and reproduce. Also called Darwinian theory.

so·cial·ism (ssh-lzm)
n.
1. Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy.
2. The stage in Marxist-Leninist theory intermediate between capitalism and communism, in which collective ownership of the economy under the dictatorship of the proletariat has not yet been successfully achieved.

com·mu·nism (kmy-nzm)
n.
1. A theoretical economic system characterized by the collective ownership of property and by the organization of labor for the common advantage of all members.
2. Communism
a. A system of government in which the state plans and controls the economy and a single, often authoritarian party holds power, claiming to make progress toward a higher social order in which all goods are equally shared by the people.
b. The Marxist-Leninist version of Communist doctrine that advocates the overthrow of capitalism by the revolution of the proletariat.

ter·ror·ism (tr-rzm)
n.
The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.

Okay......now read these definitions and please explain to me how your aforementioned statement makes any sense whatsoever. I'm just really curious.

you attempt to justify your self-worth with your work, in effect stating, "I do, therefore i deserve". please attempt to do that while watching a slave. yes, slaves do exist even in this world.

you are out of touch with reality.

 

[jdgmu33]

I have to agree with iatros here. I'm sure all 3 of these important factors are impacting this doc's income. Remember that coding a 99213 vs a 99214 is a huge difference in pay.

Example: I live in NYC, my FP works 55-60 hrs/week and earns about $200k/yr. Go figure.

http://www.aafp.org/fpm/20050900/52codi.html

This is for everyone who like me didn't know about the coding difference referenced above