Salaries

[LADoc00]

It depends on how you define "worth". If you define worth as the minimum salary needed in order to secure the services of someone with a given set of qualifications then you are correct. However, pathologists are not commodities and so this is not a rational way to assess worth; No two people are alike, even if they share the same qualifications on paper. I'm sure you know the saying "If you pay peanuts, you get monkeys. Therefore, I sure would be interested to evaluate the caliber of the pathologists who you claim are willing to work for $85,000 per year".

Alternatively, you can define worth as the amount of revenue that you will earn as a result of a person's labor. On that basis, a dermatopathologist in a busy private practice is certainly still "worth" $300k per year, even straight out of fellowship... Lumping all pathologists together when assessing worth in this way is obviously flawed; different subspecialties in pathology will generate different revenues.

Have you ever brought on a fellow straight out of training into your practice? I would say no.

There is a CRAZY amount of work that goes into bringing someone up to speed on not only signing out cases independantly but on the business side as well.

For the first 3 months you are double scoping cases. For the next year to two years, you are being inundated with requests to help on difficult cases they have.

And it takes YEARS to develop any sort of skill in hospital negotiations, business development and even simple tasks like business filings and taxes because new hires are so overwhelmed with the case load and starting a new life (which might mean kids etc).

Add this on top of the fact that a new hire can only handle so many cases before major mistakes slip in and yes I can say there is a reasonable range for all American trainees and 300K/yr starting is NOT in that range.

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[2121115]

Have you ever brought on a fellow straight out of training into your practice? I would say no.

There is a CRAZY amount of work that goes into bringing someone up to speed on not only signing out cases independantly but on the business side as well.

For the first 3 months you are double scoping cases. For the next year to two years, you are being inundated with requests to help on difficult cases they have.

And it takes YEARS to develop any sort of skill in hospital negotiations, business development and even simple tasks like business filings and taxes because new hires are so overwhelmed with the case load and starting a new life (which might mean kids etc).

Add this on top of the fact that a new hire can only handle so many cases before major mistakes slip in and yes I can say there is a reasonable range for all American trainees and 300K/yr starting is NOT in that range.

No argument there.

 

[pathstudent]

Have you ever brought on a fellow straight out of training into your practice? I would say no.

There is a CRAZY amount of work that goes into bringing someone up to speed on not only signing out cases independantly but on the business side as well.

For the first 3 months you are double scoping cases. For the next year to two years, you are being inundated with requests to help on difficult cases they have.

And it takes YEARS to develop any sort of skill in hospital negotiations, business development and even simple tasks like business filings and taxes because new hires are so overwhelmed with the case load and starting a new life (which might mean kids etc).

Add this on top of the fact that a new hire can only handle so many cases before major mistakes slip in and yes I can say there is a reasonable range for all American trainees and 300K/yr starting is NOT in that range.

Completely agree. The only people that have started around here for over the ~300k mark were pathologists with >10 years experience.

 

[Scania]

For the first 3 months you are double scoping cases. For the next year to two years, you are being inundated with requests to help on difficult cases they have.

And it takes YEARS to develop any sort of skill in hospital negotiations, business development and even simple tasks like business filings and taxes because new hires are so overwhelmed with the case load and starting a new life (which might mean kids etc).

Add this on top of the fact that a new hire can only handle so many cases before major mistakes slip in and yes I can say there is a reasonable range for all American trainees and 300K/yr starting is NOT in that range.

Seriously? Double scoping for 3 months? Ok, I think I had some dbl scoping on a handful of frozens, but jesus tapdancing Christ, you speak as if no one with <10 yrs of path experience can function without constant supervision / babysitting...

I think there's an expectation that greens will QC cases more frequently and take some time to learn the ropes, but that's hardly the determining factor in salary, nor should it be. Surprised the archetype / prototypical SDN capitalist would lament the ability of savvy grads to navigate the market or stumble across good jobs...unless you're conversely claiming that group heads are simply stupid to pay jr people >300k.

I love my group: people are more than happy to QC cases, call is split evenly, vacation is split evenly, autopsies split evenly...I have no problem paying my dues, if I'm in a scenario whereby I HAVE to pay my dues...that's not always the case, regardless of field. That's like arguing "No 'orthopod' should make >500k starting out", fill-in-the-blank with whatever specialty you want. Why lament the fact people can land solid gigs straight out of training?

 

[LADoc00]

Yes, SERIOUSLY re-reviewing every case for 3 months. Seriously dude.

The last thing you want is to allow a jr. person right out of training harm themselves in a mere 90 days after leaving the Ivory Tower.

And I have seen it:
~Fellow who hadnt done Gyn Surg Path in 2 years due to training cycle signs out 3 consecutive benign uterine biospies as malignant, patients have TAH-BSOs before mistake is found, hire is fired and career OVER. To add insult upon injury, former fellow then sued and medical license stripped.
~New hire who hadnt seen Cyto in a year overcalls lung endo specimen, fired and career over.
~New hire train wrecks pap smear service both undercalling and overcalling. Fired.
~New hire completely borks up Neuro frozen, overcalling inflammatory process. Fired.

Melanomas missed, reactive lymphocytosis overcalled and many other such noobwrecks await.

And yes, I would no sooner leave my practice with someone with less than at least 5 years of experience solo than I would leave my infant with cache of assault rifles.

Looking back on my experience, the fact that I was left alone like 9 months out of training with pretty much no one in my entire city to back me up was nothing short of malpractice on the part of my employers. And I had a solid year of solo sign out experience prior to starting my job search!

Im not "playa hating" on the guy who got 300K AT ALL, Im saying from the employer side those folks paying that got played. More power to the guy who was able to likely "bedazzle" the poor country pathology group with his glory of his pedigree. Probably a HMS grad, they roll like that.

 

[pathstudent]

It might depend on the part of the country you are in too. For big cities starting in the 200k ballpark should be expected. It might be more if you are in small isolated cities in rural states like Casper Wyoming.

A friend of the family has a subspecialty surgery practice in Lincoln and I asked him what they pay a new hire and he said 750k. There is no that new hire makes that much in LA/SF//NYC. The insurance companies aren't as strong in the sticks.

So it is likely that you can make if you are willing to move to a small place in the **** Midwest.

 

[LADoc00]

It might depend on the part of the country you are in too. For big cities starting in the 200k ballpark should be expected. It might be more if you are in small isolated cities in rural states like Casper Wyoming.

A friend of the family has a subspecialty surgery practice in Lincoln and I asked him what they pay a new hire and he said 750k. There is no that new hire makes that much in LA/SF//NYC. The insurance companies aren't as strong in the sticks.

So it is likely that you can make if you are willing to move to a small place in the **** Midwest.

Raise your hand if you have applied for a job in Casper WY!



The only subspec surgery groups that make that much coming out training are Ortho Spine, CT folks who take a TON of call and Neuro, once again if they take a TON of call, like Q2.

 

[Scania]

Looking back on my experience, the fact that I was left alone like 9 months out of training with pretty much no one in my entire city to back me up was nothing short of malpractice on the part of my employers. And I had a solid year of solo sign out experience prior to starting my job search!

Ok, from the employer side, in many instances, yes. And I don't doubt the plethora of noob mistakes, but like someone else said, "worthiness" is variable...being "worth" 300k depends hugely on location, group setting, location, luck, and probably location.

"And yes, I would no sooner leave my practice with someone with less than at least 5 years of experience solo than I would leave my infant with cache of assault rifles"
--bit of hyperbole...apparently you've never seen Blood Diamond.

 

[Path or bust]

Considering you changed from claiming all women to a single "she" I don't think women as an entire gender are the problem, one single woman was. We have several women in my group that work just as long hours and just as hard as the men. Don't generalize on account of a single bad employee.

uh, ok. I guess you know the story about my group and not I.

 

[MOHS_01]

Have you ever brought on a fellow straight out of training into your practice? I would say no.

There is a CRAZY amount of work that goes into bringing someone up to speed on not only signing out cases independantly but on the business side as well.

For the first 3 months you are double scoping cases. For the next year to two years, you are being inundated with requests to help on difficult cases they have.

And it takes YEARS to develop any sort of skill in hospital negotiations, business development and even simple tasks like business filings and taxes because new hires are so overwhelmed with the case load and starting a new life (which might mean kids etc).

Add this on top of the fact that a new hire can only handle so many cases before major mistakes slip in and yes I can say there is a reasonable range for all American trainees and 300K/yr starting is NOT in that range.

**** me -- glad I do what I do if that's the case. FWIW, we routinely hit the ground running (at least those with the gumption required to set out on our own -- those looking for straight employment have a tendency to be lil' primadonna bishes looking for $300k/yr for 3 days of clinic (performing, at best, 1.5 days of work).

(that type was never offered employment in my practice, btw)

 

[pathololology]

My wife had an offer last month from a mid-Atlantic private practice group starting at $150K. They wanted a 3-year contract, non-partnership track, with a regional non-compete. She passed.

Yeah. Talk about taking advantage of someone. Let me guess. They just "couldn't afford to make her a partner" after 3 years of slaving for them . . .

 

[pathololology]

It might depend on the part of the country you are in too. For big cities starting in the 200k ballpark should be expected. It might be more if you are in small isolated cities in rural states like Casper Wyoming.

A friend of the family has a subspecialty surgery practice in Lincoln and I asked him what they pay a new hire and he said 750k. There is no that new hire makes that much in LA/SF//NYC. The insurance companies aren't as strong in the sticks.

So it is likely that you can make if you are willing to move to a small place in the **** Midwest.

Lincoln, Nebraska? And is it a surgeon or a pathologist? $750k sounds a little much for pathologist. I completely agree that you make more going to smaller towns (including in pathology) but lets compare apples with apples . . .

 

[jp123ok]

LADoc00, You make my point for me. If you hire people for $85K/year then you will end up with idiots who will:
"~ Mistakenly sign out 3 consecutive benign uterine biopsies as malignant
~ overcall lung endo specimens
~ undercall and overcall pap smears
~ miss melanomas, overcall reactive lymphocytosis, etc"

Any competent pathologist, even one fresh out of fellowship training should have enough sense to at least have some doubt in their mind about these types of cases and ask a colleague about them or get an outside consult if a colleague is not available. Also, a very wise program director at Hopkins once told me that the longer he worked in pathology the more he would hedge in his diagnoses. No surprise really, given that this poor SOB specialized in Bone pathology, but there is a lesson there for all pathologists dealing with difficult cases.

 

[yaah]

Yes, SERIOUSLY re-reviewing every case for 3 months. Seriously dude.

The last thing you want is to allow a jr. person right out of training harm themselves in a mere 90 days after leaving the Ivory Tower.

And I have seen it:
~Fellow who hadnt done Gyn Surg Path in 2 years due to training cycle signs out 3 consecutive benign uterine biospies as malignant, patients have TAH-BSOs before mistake is found, hire is fired and career OVER. To add insult upon injury, former fellow then sued and medical license stripped.
~New hire who hadnt seen Cyto in a year overcalls lung endo specimen, fired and career over.
~New hire train wrecks pap smear service both undercalling and overcalling. Fired.
~New hire completely borks up Neuro frozen, overcalling inflammatory process. Fired.

Melanomas missed, reactive lymphocytosis overcalled and many other such noobwrecks await.

And yes, I would no sooner leave my practice with someone with less than at least 5 years of experience solo than I would leave my infant with cache of assault rifles.

Looking back on my experience, the fact that I was left alone like 9 months out of training with pretty much no one in my entire city to back me up was nothing short of malpractice on the part of my employers. And I had a solid year of solo sign out experience prior to starting my job search!

Im not "playa hating" on the guy who got 300K AT ALL, Im saying from the employer side those folks paying that got played. More power to the guy who was able to likely "bedazzle" the poor country pathology group with his glory of his pedigree. Probably a HMS grad, they roll like that.

A normal QC program in a department would have likely stopped most of these mistakes. New malignancies require a second look, frozens require a second look if available, etc. And who are these people that they are willing to put their name on a case if they aren't sure? These anecdotes are a little strange and raise obvious red flags about the involved groups.

I started right out of fellowship. My group gave me a reduced load for I think 2 weeks. No call right away. First few days was mostly my fellowship stuff. Other stuff added on gradually. Didn't double scope at all. Was encouraged to show everything critical especially new malignancies. For a couple weeks I showed lots of stuff, especially cyto, but I spread it around, it was definitely not excessive, and no one minded. Someone else in the group went over all my reports, not sure if they also looked at slides in random subset but it is possible. I mean the hospital itself requires an introductory period of observation and performance measurement. Both the group and the new pathologist have responsibilties in making sure things start off ok. There is something seriously wrong with these groups if your stories are accurate.

I'm not sure what the low range for starting non-academic salaries in my area is but it is at least high 100s, like 175 I would imagine but have not seriously heard of anything below 200. 200-225 is more common, 250 is not rare. Have not heard of 300 for new hires but some people clam up.

 

[icpshootyz]

Have you ever brought on a fellow straight out of training into your practice? I would say no.

There is a CRAZY amount of work that goes into bringing someone up to speed on not only signing out cases independantly but on the business side as well.

For the first 3 months you are double scoping cases. For the next year to two years, you are being inundated with requests to help on difficult cases they have.

And it takes YEARS to develop any sort of skill in hospital negotiations, business development and even simple tasks like business filings and taxes because new hires are so overwhelmed with the case load and starting a new life (which might mean kids etc).

Add this on top of the fact that a new hire can only handle so many cases before major mistakes slip in and yes I can say there is a reasonable range for all American trainees and 300K/yr starting is NOT in that range.

Every day I'm glad I work for my group and not LADoc's Because that was absolutely not the case for my employment right out of fellowship. Or maybe I'm just that darn special!

 

[icpshootyz]

uh, ok. I guess you know the story about my group and not I.

Either way, I know not ALL women pathologists are as bad as you make them out to be. And lumping them all together because of one or two bad apples in your group does no one any favors.

 

[LADoc00]

A normal QC program in a department would have likely stopped most of these mistakes. New malignancies require a second look, frozens require a second look if available, etc. And who are these people that they are willing to put their name on a case if they aren't sure? These anecdotes are a little strange and raise obvious red flags about the involved groups.

There is no normal QC program that requires "second looks" for ANYTHING by another pathologist aside from a quarterly or so lookback required by JCAHO.

You guys are living in the world of some bloated Pathology department in Cleveland where there are 8 warm bodies on any given Tuesday.

Much of our trade is plied at the "Frontier" in smaller hospitals with 1-2 Pathologists and often just 1. Now they may use a Hub-n-Spoke business model as well (central histo processing perhaps in a bigger neighboring city) BUT these anecdotes are NOT strange Im sad to report. They occur all the time in every state, but obviously outside your realm of experience.

Im sure someone could google the number of patients cared for by say hospitals with less than 250-300 beds, my guess is that is actually the MAJORITY of all patients cared for in the US. Dunno, maybe Im wrong on that but that is my sense. In that case no one is double scoping every frozen with you guys.

Certainly for a difficult case/frozen I do show though if I got a chance to. Certainly most new malignancies I do have 2nd reads in real time BUT Im also near a big city and I fully realize that aint happening everywhere.

 

[LADoc00]

Every day I'm glad I work for my group and not LADoc's Because that was absolutely not the case for my employment right out of fellowship. Or maybe I'm just that darn special!

Certainly no fellow or resident should be subjected to me. I am a horrible teacher with a short temper and no tolerance whatsoever for those who can't see what Im seeing. It's a fairly big character flaw Im afraid Ive done little to improve on in the last decade. But in my defence at least I recognize it.

This has led to me to the conclusion I will not bring on a recently trained Pathologist for the remainder of my career as a physician (unless I "find Christ" and change or something...dunno).

Unfortunately this will make the practices (multiple now) of LADOC more of the 'Pirate LaDOC and the Crew of the Salty *****' variety than your typical feel good "Rotating chief-Maggie baked some cookies for the quarterly shareholder meeting while Timmy shows everyone the powerpoint of his bicycling trip across New Zealand and every frozen section has 4 people making sure" type group.

Oh well.

 

[twentyone]

This has led to me to the conclusion I will not bring on a recently trained Pathologist for the remainder of my career as a physician (unless I "find Christ" and change or something...dunno).

Well, he finished training a while ago, but I hear he may be looking.

 

[2121115]

This has led to me to the conclusion I will not bring on a recently trained Pathologist for the remainder of my career as a physician (unless I "find Christ" and change or something...dunno).

Well, he finished training a while ago, but I hear he may be looking.

Job market must be as bad as they say then. I heard he even did two fellowships.

 

[WEBB PINKERTON]

Is LADoc atheist?

 

[LADoc00]

Its a figure of speech seesh..."Find Christ"= decide to put down my freebooter life of piracy and high adventure etc.

do read too much into it..

I just get bored really easily.

 

[WEBB PINKERTON]

Its a figure of speech seesh..."Find Christ"= decide to put down my freebooter life of piracy and high adventure etc.

do read too much into it..

I just get bored really easily.

Whoa, a new avitar pic of Moshe Dayan.

His eyepatch was offered for sale on ebay believe it or not. People will try to make money off of anything.

 

[yaah]

There is no normal QC program that requires "second looks" for ANYTHING by another pathologist aside from a quarterly or so lookback required by JCAHO.

You guys are living in the world of some bloated Pathology department in Cleveland where there are 8 warm bodies on any given Tuesday.

Much of our trade is plied at the "Frontier" in smaller hospitals with 1-2 Pathologists and often just 1. Now they may use a Hub-n-Spoke business model as well (central histo processing perhaps in a bigger neighboring city) BUT these anecdotes are NOT strange Im sad to report. They occur all the time in every state, but obviously outside your realm of experience.

Im sure someone could google the number of patients cared for by say hospitals with less than 250-300 beds, my guess is that is actually the MAJORITY of all patients cared for in the US. Dunno, maybe Im wrong on that but that is my sense. In that case no one is double scoping every frozen with you guys.

Certainly for a difficult case/frozen I do show though if I got a chance to. Certainly most new malignancies I do have 2nd reads in real time BUT Im also near a big city and I fully realize that aint happening everywhere.

Just how rare the anecdotes are I am not really trying to argue. My point is that these anecdotes do not by any stretch reflect the normal practice experience of newly minted graduates. Just because they do happen doesn't mean they happen every day. And I also suspect that in each of those cases there is a serious failure of process and procedure, not to mention common sense and collegiality. And do the clinicians have no brains either?

In terms of second looks, concurrences, etc, just because something is done doesn't mean it is because it is "required" by a federal entity. I would not by any stretch call our group bloated.

I know all about hub and spoke models and we have one ourselves, it doesn't mean you can't show cases and have quality control. There are ways to work it and modify it to improve quality and reduce risk. Personally I do not know the actual numbers as to how many pathologists truly work alone or in isolation from their group for entire days. There are places like that in my general area but definitely not as common. And in our experience, at least, frozens are far far less common at smaller 100-200 bed hospitals than at the central larger facility. And if it becomes such a huge problem, slide scanners are getting cheaper anyway and work wonders for quick consults. I would disagree that "much" of pathology is practiced at smaller hospitals with a single pathologist on site. I do realize this is more common out west than other places, but it is really not a typical situation for a n00b. Most of pathology happens at central larger sites and less and less is happening at peripheral sites, especially complicated stuff which is increasingly centralized. Our offsite frozens consist almost entirely of sentinel nodes, thyroid lobes, and the occasional skin case and hip revision.

 

[member0007]

Just how rare the anecdotes are I am not really trying to argue. My point is that these anecdotes do not by any stretch reflect the normal practice experience of newly minted graduates. Just because they do happen doesn't mean they happen every day. And I also suspect that in each of those cases there is a serious failure of process and procedure, not to mention common sense and collegiality. And do the clinicians have no brains either?

In terms of second looks, concurrences, etc, just because something is done doesn't mean it is because it is "required" by a federal entity. I would not by any stretch call our group bloated.

I know all about hub and spoke models and we have one ourselves, it doesn't mean you can't show cases and have quality control. There are ways to work it and modify it to improve quality and reduce risk. Personally I do not know the actual numbers as to how many pathologists truly work alone or in isolation from their group for entire days. There are places like that in my general area but definitely not as common. And in our experience, at least, frozens are far far less common at smaller 100-200 bed hospitals than at the central larger facility. And if it becomes such a huge problem, slide scanners are getting cheaper anyway and work wonders for quick consults. I would disagree that "much" of pathology is practiced at smaller hospitals with a single pathologist on site. I do realize this is more common out west than other places, but it is really not a typical situation for a n00b. Most of pathology happens at central larger sites and less and less is happening at peripheral sites, especially complicated stuff which is increasingly centralized. Our offsite frozens consist almost entirely of sentinel nodes, thyroid lobes, and the occasional skin case and hip revision.

what the hell is the above jabberwocky? this is some of the worst drivel ever produced on this forum

 

[LADoc00]

what the hell is the above jabberwocky? this is some of the worst drivel ever produced on this forum

Oh youre back.

 

[LADoc00]

Just how rare the anecdotes are I am not really trying to argue. My point is that these anecdotes do not by any stretch reflect the normal practice experience of newly minted graduates. Just because they do happen doesn't mean they happen every day. And I also suspect that in each of those cases there is a serious failure of process and procedure, not to mention common sense and collegiality. And do the clinicians have no brains either?

The clinician aspect is interesting and one I brought up when I was interviewing with this group as they told some of these stories. That doesnt resonant well in the community though. Most surgeons will go BONKERS if you even imply they are somehow supposed to double check the common sense of their pathologist even when they themselves are often more than skeptical of a new diagnosis.

Im not sure I know what "normal practice experience of newly minted graduates is" and I would guess you dont either. That is a very geographical and era dependent equation that is probably more troublesome to dissect than the Grand Unifying Theory.

But I have seen ALOT: everything from the hive mind bloat group that had 6 yes SIX boarded pathologists look at every frozen section and review every new malignant Dx to other another poor guy who literally stepped off their fellowship, had NO proctoring and began signing cases out solo with literally no support from anyone AND even worse had very limited ability to even get consultations!

There is no standard experience even if we somehow rationalize there should be coming from our almost 30 years of formal education....

There is a huge spectrum of in the way groups work and now a decade+ studying this Im not even sure its a Bell Shaped Curve either.

But to bring this thread around:
1.) more power to dude who got 300K out of training, seriously grats.
2.) dont feel like you are a failure if you can only get 140K and read this thread, buckle down, learn the business side and keep looking for that break, it will come eventually.
3.) dont let senior staff in your groups do everything, try to learn all the components of the business even if they tell you they "have it taken care of and you dont need to worry about it"
4.) take an interest in what is happening on the political side be it tort reform, Obamacare or other such stuff
5.) MAKE FRIENDS among the medical staff. Allies, even if they dont initially seem like they can aid you, are important.

night all.

 

[yaah]

But to bring this thread around:
1.) more power to dude who got 300K out of training, seriously grats.
2.) dont feel like you are a failure if you can only get 140K and read this thread, buckle down, learn the business side and keep looking for that break, it will come eventually.
3.) dont let senior staff in your groups do everything, try to learn all the components of the business even if they tell you they "have it taken care of and you dont need to worry about it"
4.) take an interest in what is happening on the political side be it tort reform, Obamacare or other such stuff
5.) MAKE FRIENDS among the medical staff. Allies, even if they dont initially seem like they can aid you, are important.

night all.

Yes 2-5 are all very good advice. #2 especially is important to remember - if you talk to private paths you will be surprised how many are not in their first job. Not sure what the average times a new path changes jobs but most of my group is on their 2nd or 3rd job. The newer ones in our group are mostly right out of training but that was a conscious decision by the group since we had enough residual experience to be able to handle that. Smaller groups are less likely to take that risk.

#3 and 5 are invaluable. Kinds of things where you never know when or where they will come in handy. A good rule of thumb is, "if there is no downside to doing it then why not do it." That applies to these.

 

[2121115]

As far as new grads needing help getting going - yes absolutely they do. No question. And it is a multi-year process, even for the best of them.

For the new grads, heed this advice. How do you know if you are showing too many cases? Well, here is how. If you are humble, a good social fit for the group, and know "your role" in the practice, you can't show too many cases. You can walk into a senior path's office with a stack of cases to show, and they will be like "How's it going? Wow, you got hit with a run of challenging cases today. Yes, I can see why you'd want a second opinion on this one. Play any good golf lately?" And so forth. By contrast, if you're an entitled tool bag, then it's "Wow, this person can't sign out anything. Geez."

You get the idea. You've heard the old saying, "I'd rather be lucky than good", but the pathology correlate to that is "I'd rather be well liked than good". Obviously, you can't suck. I'm not saying its ok to be incompetent. But I'm saying you don't need to be Juan Rosai to be successful. Let that sink in as you are starting your new job.

 

[member0007]

Oh youre back.

Apparently your racist rants and threats are not enough to get you off the forum. It must be nice being some entitled white guy, much like yahh.

 

[yaah]

Apparently your racist rants and threats are not enough to get you off the forum. It must be nice being some entitled white guy, much like yahh.

I really don't care if you insult me because it makes no difference to me, but I would ask that you not insult others. It adds nothing to the forums. And I would posit that "self-entitlement" tends to lead one to criticize others frequently, particularly anonymously, because the self entitled know that their attempts at rational argument are likely weak and doomed to failure, so therefore they resort to name calling or claiming someone else is "the real problem." But it is always a lot easier to insult and flame others than to take a serious look at your own self.

 

[Path or bust]

The clinician aspect is interesting and one I brought up when I was interviewing with this group as they told some of these stories. That doesnt resonant well in the community though. Most surgeons will go BONKERS if you even imply they are somehow supposed to double check the common sense of their pathologist even when they themselves are often more than skeptical of a new diagnosis.

Im not sure I know what "normal practice experience of newly minted graduates is" and I would guess you dont either. That is a very geographical and era dependent equation that is probably more troublesome to dissect than the Grand Unifying Theory.

But I have seen ALOT: everything from the hive mind bloat group that had 6 yes SIX boarded pathologists look at every frozen section and review every new malignant Dx to other another poor guy who literally stepped off their fellowship, had NO proctoring and began signing cases out solo with literally no support from anyone AND even worse had very limited ability to even get consultations!

There is no standard experience even if we somehow rationalize there should be coming from our almost 30 years of formal education....

There is a huge spectrum of in the way groups work and now a decade+ studying this Im not even sure its a Bell Shaped Curve either.

But to bring this thread around:
1.) more power to dude who got 300K out of training, seriously grats.
2.) dont feel like you are a failure if you can only get 140K and read this thread, buckle down, learn the business side and keep looking for that break, it will come eventually.
3.) dont let senior staff in your groups do everything, try to learn all the components of the business even if they tell you they "have it taken care of and you dont need to worry about it"
4.) take an interest in what is happening on the political side be it tort reform, Obamacare or other such stuff
5.) MAKE FRIENDS among the medical staff. Allies, even if they dont initially seem like they can aid you, are important.

night all.

Very good advice, especially 5.

I would add number 6 too: Get involved with hospital committees. I'm a Medical-Executive Commitee Officer and on the Peer review committee among others, but those are the critical ones. Be invaluable to the hospital in their quality management, they are usually desperate for physician involvement and input.

 

[LADoc00]

I really don't care if you insult me because it makes no difference to me, but I would ask that you not insult others. It adds nothing to the forums. And I would posit that "self-entitlement" tends to lead one to criticize others frequently, particularly anonymously, because the self entitled know that their attempts at rational argument are likely weak and doomed to failure, so therefore they resort to name calling or claiming someone else is "the real problem." But it is always a lot easier to insult and flame others than to take a serious look at your own self.

I have never asked for someone to be banned...but it might be time tbh.

 

[member0007]

I really don't care if you insult me because it makes no difference to me, but I would ask that you not insult others. It adds nothing to the forums. And I would posit that "self-entitlement" tends to lead one to criticize others frequently, particularly anonymously, because the self entitled know that their attempts at rational argument are likely weak and doomed to failure, so therefore they resort to name calling or claiming someone else is "the real problem." But it is always a lot easier to insult and flame others than to take a serious look at your own self.

Keep on yaahing. I received an email stating that Ladoc was threatening to track my ip address and making racist comments directed at me, another forum member, which are against the rules of the forum. I have also gotten weird ddos attacks for this forum several times.

 

[cmz]

Keep on yaahing. I received an email stating that Ladoc was threatening to track my ip address and making racist comments directed at me, another forum member, which are against the rules of the forum. I have also gotten weird ddos attacks for this forum several times.

Wow. As a former admin here (someone who could actually look up your IP), I would have to say that you'd be a little gullible to think that a regular AKA non-admin user can find your IP address...

The only way that I would guess that a non-admin could overcome this security gap would be through IRC chat. However, I haven't been to IRC Chat in over a decade, but if you used that before... well... that's the risk you take, I suppose.

I'm also not sure what to make of your last sentence. You've "gotten weird ddos attacks" from this forum several times? Again, it would be quite odd (if I am interpreting your statement correctly)... actually, very UNLIKELY that you would have been DDOS'd from a studentdoctor.net domain. In fact, you would have a hard time proving anything unless you were a network guru (which sound NOTHING like) and could trace/interpret logs to support your claims. At the very least, you should have contacted your ISPs systems admin to figure out your latency issues.

Lastly, I think I just got trolled into responding to your post...

 

[LADoc00]

If you've ever wondered what happened when someone is kicked out a Pathology residency program and then fades into darkness throwing curses at the world for their sad plight, wonder no longer folks!

Apparently, they come to the SDN forum and post. Probably sitting in their dirty underwear in a dimly lit 1-room studio apartment with curtains drawn.

 

[WEBB PINKERTON]

SDN does a good job of showing what happens when you push glass in seclusion for many years.

Pathologyblawg has a disgusting story on there today about a pathologist charged with moving the dead body of his lover (Abuse of a corpse). Boy, I'd hate to have that charge on my record.

 

[member0007]

If you've ever wondered what happened when someone is kicked out a Pathology residency program and then fades into darkness throwing curses at the world for their sad plight, wonder no longer folks!

Apparently, they come to the SDN forum and post. Probably sitting in their dirty underwear in a dimly lit 1-room studio apartment with curtains drawn.

SDN does a good job of showing what happens when you push glass in seclusion for many years.

Pathologyblawg has a disgusting story on there today about a pathologist charged with moving the dead body of his lover (Abuse of a corpse). Boy, I'd hate to have that charge on my record.

What? The state of AP/CP work, residency, and employment prospects are crappy as has been stated by yourselves. As for what actually happens with employment in this field, it's to be run by a bunch of nit wits like yourselves to put glass ad infinitum. The value based on this endeavor is about being paid like 5-10 bucks a case to the medicare reimbursement of 80 bucks and more per case to probably even less of a percentage for non medicare cases, to a few dollars on the case from private insurances. I don't get why you think that I would be upset about not being able to push glass along when I don't think it particularly relevant to patient care and appropriate utilization of health care monies. In fact, pushing glass is the least valuable aspect of pathology and I would probably train a monkey to do it for me.

 

[Torsed]

85k, I'd rather go mow grass.

LADoc is that the Israeli general in your pic? Can't ever spell his name.

 

[WEBB PINKERTON]

85k, I'd rather go mow grass.

LADoc is that the Israeli general in your pic? Can't ever spell his name.

Mosche Dayan.

LaDoc needs to explain why he ditched Reagan.

 

[Mud]

Yeah, his avatar was Reagan for so long that I started picturing that as his actual face.

 

[WEBB PINKERTON]

Yeah, his avatar was Reagan for so long that I started picturing that as his actual face.

When I read LAdocs stuff, I always hear it in Reagan's voice. It's soothing to me. I dont have a clue what Dayan even sounded like. I just remember seeing soundless footage of him and Golda Meir talking on documentaries I have seen.

I am still amazed at the Raid On Entebbe. The Bin Laden mission had NOTHING on that. In a short amount of time they went in, saved most of the hostages and got out. Read the books, see the movies, simply amazing mission.

I wish they would have served some Israeli justice on good ole Idi Amin, when he was in exile, like they did to the terrorists of the Munich olympics.

 

[LADoc00]

Mosche Dayan.

LaDoc needs to explain why he ditched Reagan.

I had dream recently of Dayan standing on the dusty plains of Gehenna with pages of the Ars Goetia in one hand and the Malleus Maleficarum in the other. To his right was the Pope and to his left was the Grand Mufti.

He was saying something but I couldnt make out the words. I assumed it was serious stuff though.

 

[InterimChair]

I had dream recently of Dayan standing on the dusty plains of Gehenna with pages of the Ars Goetia in one hand and the Malleus Maleficarum in the other. To his right was the Pope and to his left was the Grand Mufti.

He was saying something but I couldnt make out the words. I assumed it was serious stuff though.

He went from a conservative to a neonut, just lovely

 

[LADoc00]

He went from a conservative to a neonut, just lovely

WTH, I only recently reached "nut" status? I thought I had that on lockdown sometime around 2005.


PS- My SDN handle was 'Carlos Danger' before it was cool.

 

[Pathguy11]

[/QUOTE]I'm not sure what the low range for starting non-academic salaries in my area is but it is at least high 100s, like 175 I would imagine but have not seriously heard of anything below 200. 200-225 is more common, 250 is not rare. Have not heard of 300 for new hires but some people clam up.[/QUOTE]

I have been in private practice (large group) for a little over a year now. I can vouch for the statement above at least based on fellows who trained with me and found private practice jobs. Starting salaries were usually in the $200-225k range with one offered $250k starting. One was offered $180k starting and took it because it was where she wanted to be. I am sure there are offers all over the place from really low to really high, but in my experience, starting between $180 - $225k is the most common range for the private groups that are NOT just trying to exploit you. If you are being offered $100-$120k starting in private practice there is probably something wrong with the situation. And as I said in my previous posts from over a year ago now, EVERYONE in my fellowship class and practically everyone in the neighboring fellowship found a job. Each year there is talk about how bad the market is, etc. I am not saying it is great where employers will be knocking down your door, but most people who are fellowship trained are still findings jobs each year. Just my two cents...

 

[pathololology]

I'm not sure what the low range for starting non-academic salaries in my area is but it is at least high 100s, like 175 I would imagine but have not seriously heard of anything below 200. 200-225 is more common, 250 is not rare. Have not heard of 300 for new hires but some people clam up.[/QUOTE]

I have been in private practice (large group) for a little over a year now. I can vouch for the statement above at least based on fellows who trained with me and found private practice jobs. Starting salaries were usually in the $200-225k range with one offered $250k starting. One was offered $180k starting and took it because it was where she wanted to be. I am sure there are offers all over the place from really low to really high, but in my experience, starting between $180 - $225k is the most common range for the private groups that are NOT just trying to exploit you. If you are being offered $100-$120k starting in private practice there is probably something wrong with the situation. And as I said in my previous posts from over a year ago now, EVERYONE in my fellowship class and practically everyone in the neighboring fellowship found a job. Each year there is talk about how bad the market is, etc. I am not saying it is great where employers will be knocking down your door, but most people who are fellowship trained are still findings jobs each year. Just my two cents...[/QUOTE]

I agree with pathguy11. Everyone I know found a job, but it wasn't always easy and the locations were not always ideal . . . . .

 

[Kilgoretrout 65]

From the heme-onc page, sound familiar?

"So I was at MDAnderson Oncology Board Review in Texas. Being a 3rd year Oncologist looking for jobs, I got engage into conversation with several people already employed. I was disappointed with their attitudes though. Seemed like there was a clear consensus that the compensation in East Coast is close to nothing while the chance of becoming a partner in the west coast is almost impossible.

To me certainly money was not the priority when I got into this field. Nevertheless, I'd hope to get to enjoy a comfortable life after all the years I have put in medicine and particularly Hematology/Oncology ( I had to do some years of research before I was admitted) . I'd prefer the East Coast where I have some friends and family. I never expected to make millions not even half a million out of my specialty but $180-220 in the East coast is not really that much for a family with 2,3, kids unless your partner happens to have decent income."

 

[yaah]

Yeah the medicare reimbursement changes really crippled private heme-onc groups. Most had to go to an employment model (hospital or group practice). Cardiology also got hit like this but not as bad. I suspect GI is next but they might be ok because of the ability to fund their own procedure centers.

 

[LADoc00]

Some heme-onc groups routinely made up to 1+million per partner in my area, those days are LONG gone with income supposedly slashed by 50% or more. Some groups are still making near to that number but it is because they have aggresively integrated rad onc, rads and even pathology.

Also the partnership situation there is beginning to resemble road Path began to take in the 90s: new hires being employees only, revolving door practices etc.