Salaries

[pathbot]

Just curious if any of you new hires could share what kind of salary offers you got on the job interview trail and what kind of jobs those were. For private practice, what is now the typical starting offer and how much does it go up with partner. How do corporate labs compare salary-wise to this. Also, I know academics is lower (i.e. usually under 200k) but are there other perks associated with these jobs (i.e. options for bonuses, etc.).

I am open to a variety of job types but got some loans to pay off

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[Leukocyte]

I am open to a variety of job types but got some loans to pay off

I am very curious about what advise you will get from the attendings on this forum.........but I have a feeling I already know the answer.

I am starting to wonder if the phrase "New Hires" even exists in the Pathology world.

You are a brave sole for choosing Pathology.

 

[Torsed]

I was offered a range of 120 to 180 to start in private practice. Rarely have I seen a group provide health insurance in my geographical area.

I thought this was covered in another post previously?

If you got more than one offer and get to choose I salute you.

 

[Thrombus]

I was offered a range of 120 to 180 to start in private practice. Rarely have I seen a group provide health insurance in my geographical area.

I thought this was covered in another post previously?

If you got more than one offer and get to choose I salute you.

In my area, groups are paying on the low end of that scale. It has become cheaper to churn a new pathologist than a PA.

 

[yaah]

120 to start would be very low for a private job unless it's part time. That's an academic salary. 180 would be closer but 200 is more likely. Some higher.

 

[LADoc00]

Slaps forehead...

Wealth is a completely relative concept folks. Its fluid both in geography/place and time.

200,000USD in parts of Kansas is like over a million bucks in NYC.

As I often tell people there are 2 ways to become rich:
1.) make more $
2.) move to where most people are poorer

ergo if Medicare pays X, then your best game coming out training to is to find the locale where the X = big bucks.

IMO its pointless to take about starting salary unless you marry that to some type of geographic location or relative living cost index..

 

[BU Pathology]

I was offered a range of 120 to 180 to start in private practice. Rarely have I seen a group provide health insurance in my geographical area.

I thought this was covered in another post previously?

If you got more than one offer and get to choose I salute you.

Most academic pathologists start at the upper end of that range, in a region of the country where the compensation is the lowest.

 

[icpshootyz]

These numbers sound very low. I'm in a high cost of living area in private practice, started north of $250K, full benefits, short employment period then full partner track. Started not even two years ago. Many other people from around my graduating class found similar work if they were looking for private. Academic was lower, of course.

 

[Thrombus]

I know several pathologists that found the market so appalling that they had to settle for a job that was called "junior faculty", offered by many academic institutions. Here they basically did all the service work and got paid 60-70k working 60-70 hours per week. And this is after 2 fellowships!

 

[icpshootyz]

I know several pathologists that found the market so appalling that they had to settle for a job that was called "junior faculty", offered by many academic institutions. Here they basically did all the service work and got paid 60-70k working 60-70 hours per week. And this is after 2 fellowships!

This also sounds very low. I don't know of any junior faculty that started below $100K, and the ones I do know all started at $140K or higher.

 

[2121115]

Rarely have I seen a group provide health insurance in my geographical area.

This is becoming more common. Particularly now with the exchanges coming into play. It will be too expensive for a 5-6 person group to provide a group health plan. Especially when many of the group members can get health coverage through their spouse's employer.

 

[gbwillner]

This also sounds very low. I don't know of any junior faculty that started below $100K, and the ones I do know all started at $140K or higher.

This sounds like an instructor-level academic job. These are usually temporary positions. Most people who intend on staying in academia in a clinical track will start as Asst. Professor, with a mean starting salary at around $175K. Instructorships are for people who want to do research but don't have enough data or grant money to get a reasonable start-up package, or are clinical faculty who want something for just a year or so while they look for a private job and want no commitments or non-compete clauses.

 

[flindophile]

Most recent AAMC salary survey data for Pathology (median salaries):
Instructor: 57k
Assist Prof: 148k
Assoc: 189
Prof: 234
Chair: 432

Just curious if any of you new hires could share what kind of salary offers you got on the job interview trail and what kind of jobs those were. For private practice, what is now the typical starting offer and how much does it go up with partner. How do corporate labs compare salary-wise to this. Also, I know academics is lower (i.e. usually under 200k) but are there other perks associated with these jobs (i.e. options for bonuses, etc.).

I am open to a variety of job types but got some loans to pay off

 

[Tiki]

I started as an Asst Professor in a major city on the East Coast and started in the 160's. Most of my cofellows found jobs on the Midwest starting in the 200's. I've never seen anyone in private practice who worked full time start below 160,000.

 

[Leukocyte]

...and, "HELP!....WOLF!....WOLF!....WOLF!", cries the old shepard.

Seriously guys, your posts are confusing as hell. I am not sure anymore if you guys are serious, or just exagerating, the bad situation of the Pathology job market. So which is it? I mean, to us "out-siders", you attendings are as close as it gets to first-hand information about what is going on. So please, please, please, no need to "exagerate" or "sugar-coat" things.

The MAJORITY of the posts in this forum, leaves people with the impression that:

-It is a "jungle" out there in the real world of Pathology. Jobs in Pathology are scarce and limitted, and Pathologists fight with each for those limmited jobs....leaving a significant % of Pathologist Unemployed or Under-employed.

-It is basically IMPOSSIBLE to get a job fresh out of residency. To get a job, ANY Pathology job, you have to do a Fellowship, or even 2 Fellowships!.


Is the above correct?

But then I read threads, like this one, and I get dumb founded......with people (I hope real attendings) saying that all their fellow grads got jobs, and that the salary can go up to $250,000 +.

I understand that everyone has different experieneces, but majority here "seems" to say "stay away from Pathology if you are sane. And 2013 ASCP report seems to agree that the Pathology has a HORRIBLE job market, which agrees with what you guys are saying (most of the time at least).

So which is it.....Is there really a "wolf" out there or not?

 

[Path or bust]

...and, "HELP!....WOLF!....WOLF!....WOLF!", cries the old shepard.

Seriously guys, your posts are confusing as hell. I am not sure anymore if you guys are serious, or just exagerating, the bad situation of the Pathology job market. So which is it? I mean, to us "out-siders", you attendings are as close as it gets to first-hand information about what is going on. So please, please, please, no need to "exagerate" or "sugar-coat" things.

The MAJORITY of the posts in this forum, leaves people with the impression that:

-It is a "jungle" out there in the real world of Pathology. Jobs in Pathology are scarce and limitted, and Pathologists fight with each for those limmited jobs....leaving a significant % of Pathologist Unemployed or Under-employed.

-It is basically IMPOSSIBLE to get a job fresh out of residency. To get a job, ANY Pathology job, you have to do a Fellowship, or even 2 Fellowships!.


Is the above correct?

But then I read threads, like this one, and I get dumb founded......with people (I hope real attendings) saying that all their fellow grads got jobs, and that the salary can go up to $250,000 +.

I understand that everyone has different experieneces, but majority here "seems" to say "stay away from Pathology if you are sane. And 2013 ASCP report seems to agree that the Pathology has a HORRIBLE job market, which agrees with what you guys are saying (most of the time at least).

So which is it.....Is there really a "wolf" out there or not?

Yes to all the above.

To be frank, I think people get frustrated with the lack of certainty in the specialty. People just want options. Most likely you will get a job if you do Pathology....but no one will guarantee that you will get one. You may have to jump a few hoops and a few fellowships. Even then, you may have to move away from family/friends for that job. It may be a job that is undesirable with no partnership track options. Then, once you have a job, you may have a competitor or national lab come by and undercut your company, lose the contract and now have no job. Those are the realities, you will find them in other specialties too, but not a prevalent as we see in Pathology. Radiology is catching up quickly. Hope it helps.

 

[Cicatricial]

Just signed with a private group in a mid-sized southern city. 1 Fellowship. 230k

There are more jobs out there than this forum leads you to believe, but you have to network like crazy starting as early as possible in your residency/fellowship.

 

[Napoleon1801]

At our university in a low cost of living area it's 130k starting.

 

[jp123ok]

My job details:
- Recently signed with a private practice group in a large city (moderate cost of living) on the East Coast
- $300k starting salary, 1 fellowship
- Job obtained via networking (unadvertised position); I strongly agree that networking is crucial for finding a good job.

At my former residency program Assistant Professors start at $150-160k. Salaries for full Professors are between $250-270k.

 

[cmz]

Small town with low-cost of living private practice @ 200K plus medical/dental/liability and able to participate in the group's retirement plan (SEP-IRA) that is nearly always funded at 25%. In addition to our allotted vacation we get an extra day off (Friday) after your week of call (split among 4 people). Job was not advertised. I found it through networking.

 

[stickyshift]

Just signed with a private group in a mid-sized southern city. 1 Fellowship. 230k

There are more jobs out there than this forum leads you to believe, but you have to network like crazy starting as early as possible in your residency/fellowship.

Yes, for starters, try to get along well with everyone in your residency/fellowship program: when it comes time to hire, people like to go with people they know very well from having worked with them before (Nearly every pathologist that we hired off of a website or listing did not work out, while nearly every one that we hired on the knowledgeable recommendation of a member or our practice did.).

 

[medicomel]

My job details:
- Recently signed with a private practice group in a large city (moderate cost of living) on the East Coast
- $300k starting salary, 1 fellowship
- Job obtained via networking (unadvertised position); I strongly agree that networking is crucial for finding a good job.

At my former residency program Assistant Professors start at $150-160k. Salaries for full Professors are between $250-270k.

jp123ok, I pm'd you.

 

[pathololology]

Is that 300K base????
I haven't heard of a salary that high straight out of fellowship. With incentive bonuses and profit sharing, I think that is possible, but that still sounds quite high. If I was a resident or med student looking at this salary, that is by far NOT the norm.

My job details:
- Recently signed with a private practice group in a large city (moderate cost of living) on the East Coast
- $300k starting salary, 1 fellowship
- Job obtained via networking (unadvertised position); I strongly agree that networking is crucial for finding a good job.

At my former residency program Assistant Professors start at $150-160k. Salaries for full Professors are between $250-270k.

 

[mlw03]

Look north, guys and gals. Want to make 300K with 0 or 1 fellowship? Move to the Canadian Prairies. I'm pretty sure MB, SK, and AB all are in this ballpark for staff pathologists (yes, you're a government employee), and residents here often get jobs without a fellowship (although path residency up here is 5 years, where you're AP only or the equivalent of AP/CP). Yeah, it's far from home, but they do have phones, the internet, and airplanes in Canada. I hear they pay well in the Martimes too... pretty much everywhere except BC and Ontario (because those are the two most popular provinces), and Quebec because the francophones be a bit on the crazy and kooky side... et vous devez parler français si vous voulez habiter au Quebec (and you must speak French if you want to live in Quebec).

Seriously, if you'd live in Minneapolis, at least look into and check the postings for the Prairies.

Is that 300K base????
I haven't heard of a salary that high straight out of fellowship. With incentive bonuses and profit sharing, I think that is possible, but that still sounds quite high. If I was a resident or med student looking at this salary, that is by far NOT the norm.

 

[yaah]

that is by far NOT the norm.

Well, neither is $120k for private practice. I have heard of occasional people starting at $300k but it is rare. Higher end to start is typically $250k.

 

[pathololology]

I would agree with this yaah. However, with the cuts more and more groups are using them as excuses to pay you less. Lets just hope these second round cuts don't go through . . .

Well, neither is $120k for private practice. I have heard of occasional people starting at $300k but it is rare. Higher end to start is typically $250k.

 

[mario2010]

Started last year, dermpath only physician owned lab. 375K base.

 

[pathololology]

Definitely impressive mario,. However, that was before DP labs lost 33% of their value with the 88305 cuts. The days of those starting salaries are over I am afraid . . .
Still very impressive . . . . .

Started last year, dermpath only physician owned lab. 375K base.

 

[member0007]

Well, according to an in the know "economic expert", women are given a much lower salary and expected to take a significant pay cut. Of course, there are exceptions to the rules but we all know what that's about.

 

[Path or bust]

Well, according to an in the know "economic expert", women are given a much lower salary and expected to take a significant pay cut. Of course, there are exceptions to the rules but we all know what that's about.

We have alot of trouble with the women in our group. They want to look at 2 trays of biopsies and go home. They are the first to complain about money.

 

[jp123ok]

Look north, guys and gals. Want to make 300K with 0 or 1 fellowship? Move to the Canadian Prairies... Seriously, if you'd live in Minneapolis, at least look into and check the postings for the Prairies.

Thanks MLW03. For those people struggling to find a good pathology job in the USA, the option of finding one in Canada should be an attractive idea. Starting salaries >$300k are the norm. Check out the jobs listed here:
http://www.cap-acp.org/careers.cfm

 

[Poeppel]

Thanks MLW03. For those people struggling to find a good pathology job in the USA, the option of finding one in Canada should be an attractive idea. Starting salaries >$300k are the norm. Check out the jobs listed here:
http://www.cap-acp.org/careers.cfm

What about the added tax liability for US citizens? Starting at say, 300k Canadian salary:

- You pay ~40% Canadian (including provincial) taxes.
- 180k take home pay after Canadian taxes.
- Then you can exclude 92k from that 180k for US income tax purposes.
- You then have a US tax liability on 88k foreign earned income.
- US tax liability on that 88k is about 29k.
- Going back up to 180k after Canadian taxes, and subtracting the 29k of US double taxation.
- Take home pay for a US citizen earning 300k Canadian = 151k.

Suddenly the 300k doesn't sound quite as attractive, though it is still good compared to prospective unemployment in the USA.

 

[jp123ok]

What about the added tax liability for US citizens?
...
Suddenly the 300k doesn't sound quite as attractive, though it is still good compared to prospective unemployment in the USA.

You do raise a good point. However, given that Canada and the US have a tax treaty, I think that your analysis is a little simplistic. Quoting from a relevant website http://www.amchamcanada.ca/business-in-canada/tax-issues/7:
"When you total up the tax to both countries (including provincial and state tax) and the foreign tax credits of each, you should end up paying a total that is equal to the higher of the two countries' rates of tax."

MLW03, what is your experience with the dual tax problem?

 

[mlw03]

This analysis is inaccurate. I just went through tax filings. The US and Canada have reciprocity to avoid double taxation on citizens of one living and working in the other. You are taxed at the higher rate only, which is Canada. The 40% total pay lost to federal and provincial taxes is in the right ballpark (may be a bit higher or lower depending on the province).

There are other financial considerations, mainly the generally higher CoL index (I estimate it at about 25%, before factoring in housing, which ain't cheap as you'd think either for the Prairies... the one down side of a strong economy and lots of natural resources). That's a discussion for another day. I just wanted to clarify the double taxation issue, which under current laws does not exist.

And for further clarity, the 300k is on the low side. http://www.jobbank.gc.ca/detail-eng.aspx?OrderNum=7132383&Source=JobPosting

What about the added tax liability for US citizens? Starting at say, 300k Canadian salary:

- You pay ~40% Canadian (including provincial) taxes.
- 180k take home pay after Canadian taxes.
- Then you can exclude 92k from that 180k for US income tax purposes.
- You then have a US tax liability on 88k foreign earned income.
- US tax liability on that 88k is about 29k.
- Going back up to 180k after Canadian taxes, and subtracting the 29k of US double taxation.
- Take home pay for a US citizen earning 300k Canadian = 151k.

Suddenly the 300k doesn't sound quite as attractive, though it is still good compared to prospective unemployment in the USA.

 

[Poeppel]

This analysis is inaccurate. I just went through tax filings. The US and Canada have reciprocity to avoid double taxation on citizens of one living and working in the other. You are taxed at the higher rate only, which is Canada. The 40% total pay lost to federal and provincial taxes is in the right ballpark (may be a bit higher or lower depending on the province).

There are other financial considerations, mainly the generally higher CoL index (I estimate it at about 25%, before factoring in housing, which ain't cheap as you'd think either for the Prairies... the one down side of a strong economy and lots of natural resources). That's a discussion for another day. I just wanted to clarify the double taxation issue, which under current laws does not exist.

And for further clarity, the 300k is on the low side. http://www.jobbank.gc.ca/detail-eng.aspx?OrderNum=7132383&Source=JobPosting

Thank you for the info. I had hoped that my analysis was incorrect...it seems so complicated to figure out. How do you (and others) handle tax preparation in this scenario? One tax professional versed in both US and Canadian systems, or two different tax pros in the respective countries?

 

[mlw03]

Thank you for the info. I had hoped that my analysis was incorrect...it seems so complicated to figure out. How do you (and others) handle tax preparation in this scenario? One tax professional versed in both US and Canadian systems, or two different tax pros in the respective countries?

I've heard of people (expats) doing either, and others just doing it all themselves. I did what I highlighted. I don't like this stuff, and figured what I spent on tax professionals I likely got back in stuff they caught I'd have missed, and probably quite a bit more, minus the hassle of doing it myself.

I don't want to hijack this thread, just pointing out that there are pathology jobs to be had in Canada, good paying ones. If an American is going to live "abroad" Canada is pretty darn similar and a very minor adjustment, in my view. The practice of pathology, based on my discussions with residents and diagnostic path attendings, is also the same as in the US (same staging and grading of tumors, same diagnostic terminology... there's a reason it's USCAP, right?). I also think that if more American pathologists did what I did and came north, it'd eventually yield better salaries in the US, if US employers ultimately come to view Canadian employers as genuine competition for good applicants (because for all the banter, good pathologists are valued and valuable, on both sides of the border).

 

[WEBB PINKERTON]

I thought Canada had a lot of lab consolidation, but then again what country isnt? Dark Report had had articles about medical errors in pathology labs occuring up there. The grass isnt greener up there, sounds like its dying also.

http://www.darkdaily.com/canadas-cl...a-time-of-shrinking-lab-budgets#axzz2gNaJW6wG

http://www.darkdaily.com/why-public...vents-reported-in-the-united-states-923#more-

 

[pathstudent]

Another confounding part of comparing salaries is that the same type of job can have very different levels of compensation.

We hired a pathologist who spent years at Quest/Ameripath and his starting salary with us was greater than his after ten years @ Ameripath and then went up dramatically when he became partner. So for doing basically the same type and volume of work his salary was twice as much because in one scenario Ameripath was skimming >50% and in the other he was keeping his equal share.

 

[smallcat]

My anecdotal experience: upper midwest, 5-year residency (under the 'old' system), no fellowships, 3 job offers, all obtained through networking (none posted). Called a lot of old friends and attendings- painful- I hate doing that kind of thing- but essential. Took the job with starting salary around $200K, partner after 3 years, now making ~ $350K. The other two jobs had starting salaries of $250K but with very little room for advancement (hospital employee positions). Full health/dental coverage provided by the corporation, plus contributions to retirement.

Also: am a woman. Going to ignore that quote above. Geez.

 

[member0007]

My anecdotal experience: upper midwest, 5-year residency (under the 'old' system), no fellowships, 3 job offers, all obtained through networking (none posted). Called a lot of old friends and attendings- painful- I hate doing that kind of thing- but essential. Took the job with starting salary around $200K, partner after 3 years, now making ~ $350K. The other two jobs had starting salaries of $250K but with very little room for advancement (hospital employee positions). Full health/dental coverage provided by the corporation, plus contributions to retirement.

Also: am a woman. Going to ignore that quote above. Geez.

Well, I thought as much. There are way to many haters on this forum that need to support their non-working gold-diggers... hate on.

 

[deleted314957]

Another confounding part of comparing salaries is that the same type of job can have very different levels of compensation.

We hired a pathologist who spent years at Quest/Ameripath and his starting salary with us was greater than his after ten years @ Ameripath and then went up dramatically when he became partner. So for doing basically the same type and volume of work his salary was twice as much because in one scenario Ameripath was skimming >50% and in the other he was keeping his equal share.

he had to be at the low end as well as REALLY getting screwed. i just retired from ameripath with ~$398000/year with 10% bonus potential and 100% 401-k match ( after an 8% cut 2 years ago from ~$428,000) however, i suspect more cuts will be coming for those left behind.
i was, however, a hospital medical director and quite senior. our group was ameripath's first big acquisition in 1996

 

[twentyone]

We have alot of trouble with the women in our group. They want to look at 2 trays of biopsies and go home. They are the first to complain about money.

Is this like a thing with you?

 

[Path or bust]

Is this like a thing with you?

Yes of course its a "thing with me", the women in our group are a not a big problem, I just hate all women.

They don't want to take call, come in at 10am, leave by 2pm and refuse frozens from surgeons.

I guess the last two groups she worked for also had a "thing", because they let her go after a year. She sued them.

 

[member0007]

Yes of course its a "thing with me", the women in our group are a not a big problem, I just hate all women.

They don't want to take call, come in at 10am, leave by 2pm and refuse frozens from surgeons.

I guess the last two groups she worked for also had a "thing", because they let her go after a year. She sued them.

Ok. This forum is part therapy, so that's interesting.

 

[Path or bust]

Ok. This forum is part therapy, so that's interesting.

 

[icpshootyz]

Yes of course its a "thing with me", the women in our group are a not a big problem, I just hate all women.

They don't want to take call, come in at 10am, leave by 2pm and refuse frozens from surgeons.

I guess the last two groups she worked for also had a "thing", because they let her go after a year. She sued them.

Considering you changed from claiming all women to a single "she" I don't think women as an entire gender are the problem, one single woman was. We have several women in my group that work just as long hours and just as hard as the men. Don't generalize on account of a single bad employee.

 

[LADoc00]

There is no one out of fellowship "worth" 300K USD as a Pathologist nowadays. I dont care how many fellowships you've done. Sorry to be the bearer of that news.

With 2-3 years of jr. attending work, perhaps. But out of fellowship, that is insane.

The starting salaries around me in my very high cost of living are as follows:
85000/yr at the low end (yes that is correct)
a few in the 150K/yr
a few in the 200K/yr
and a rare job in the 225K/year that required multiple fellowships (eg Surg Path+Heme)

 

[jp123ok]

There is no one out of fellowship "worth" 300K USD as a Pathologist nowadays...

It depends on how you define "worth". If you define worth as the minimum salary needed in order to secure the services of someone with a given set of qualifications then you are correct. However, pathologists are not commodities and so this is not a rational way to assess worth; No two people are alike, even if they share the same qualifications on paper. I'm sure you know the saying "If you pay peanuts, you get monkeys".

Alternatively, you can define worth as the amount of revenue that you will earn as a result of a person's labor. On that basis, a dermatopathologist in a busy private practice is certainly still "worth" $300k per year, even straight out of fellowship... Lumping all pathologists together when assessing worth in this way is obviously flawed; different subspecialties in pathology will generate different revenues.

The starting salaries around me in my very high cost of living are as follows: 85000/yr at the low end (yes that is correct)

I sure would be interested to evaluate the caliber of the pathologists who you claim are willing to work for $85,000 per year.

 

[GtownCobra]

My wife had an offer last month from a mid-Atlantic private practice group starting at $150K. They wanted a 3-year contract, non-partnership track, with a regional non-compete. She passed.

 

[2121115]

My wife had an offer last month from a mid-Atlantic private practice group starting at $150K. They wanted a 3-year contract, non-partnership track, with a regional non-compete. She passed.

Wow.