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Why would you go to Sackler over the Technion??
ooooooooooooooooooor
Why would you go to the Technion over Sackler??
ooooooooooooooooooor
Why would you go to the Technion over Sackler??
Sackler vs Technion - Who You Got??
- Thread starter dondon
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i would never go to the Caribbean, unless i was going on a vacation.. i would invest in those schools though.. they are cash cows
I wouldnt necessarily place BGU in front of Technion... I think it depends on the focus you would like to place in your medical school training. Lets not forget that BGU spends a significant amount of time focusing on international health. If one were to seek a career in academic/research oriented medicine I would say technion would provide a better foundation for that kind of direction...
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No question.
Stateside allopathic>D.O.>Israel>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Caribbean
Stateside allopathic>D.O.>Israel>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Caribbean
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DO>>>Israeli
Really? Aside from the fact it's in America, what are some of the advantages of DO over Israeli? I was under the impression most of the MD residency positions that accepted DO's also accepted FMGs anyway. In fact if you look at their residents lists, it's usually a mix of DO's and Caribbean.
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There is no question taht Israeli English language education is superb.
The realities are that their grads are "upper level" FMG's, but still FMG's.
This creates licensure issues in several jurisdictions (Canadians beware). There is also a prejudice afainst FMG's in many residency programs.
With a new developing imbalance between graduating MD's and DO's in USA and residency positions, the squeeze on FMG access to residencies will get worse.
There were over 1000 US grads who had to scramble this year. The reaction of allopathic residency directors will likely be to decrease FMG's to be accepted (affecting mainly caribbean graduates, but there may be a trickle down effect to Israeli grads).
DO grads will have an advantage over allopathic grads and FMG's of being eligible for allopathic and DO residency positions.
The realities are that their grads are "upper level" FMG's, but still FMG's.
This creates licensure issues in several jurisdictions (Canadians beware). There is also a prejudice afainst FMG's in many residency programs.
With a new developing imbalance between graduating MD's and DO's in USA and residency positions, the squeeze on FMG access to residencies will get worse.
There were over 1000 US grads who had to scramble this year. The reaction of allopathic residency directors will likely be to decrease FMG's to be accepted (affecting mainly caribbean graduates, but there may be a trickle down effect to Israeli grads).
DO grads will have an advantage over allopathic grads and FMG's of being eligible for allopathic and DO residency positions.
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by the statistics released each year, DOs place better than FMGs... there is no question about that... some people don't mind getting an osteopathic degree since they will be able to practice medicine at the same level as any MD... others (like myself) could not accept that title... call it what it is... i just didn't want to have my name listed last on on a sign at private practice (the DO is almost always listed after the MDs... just the way it is)
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Never noticed that, but now that I think about it, it's mostly true. Weird. Maybe since there are so many newer DO schools that the doctors are just newer to the practice?
One of my best friends is going to DO school, so I've never felt that much of a stigma for DO. I'm kind of debating between DOs and Sackler right now too.
Is it really DO > Sackler? Sure, by statistics, DOs do better than FMGs, but that's because FMGs include a lot of Caribbean, Eastern European, Indian and Chinese schools where you don't even need to take the MCAT to get in.
Do you really need like near perfect 260+ on Step 1 to get into a decent GS residency for Sackler? Or would 230-240ish suffice?
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The two "philosophies" are essentially the same now, with most of the catch-up from the osteopath side. It's nothing but propaganda to say that allopathic doesn't care holistically or "think outside the box" like the osteopaths do.
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OK, first of all, DO's make just as much as MD's. It depends on the specialty. Google it.
Second of all, keep your sexist bull$%*& off this forum. I don't care what your opinion is about a woman trying to find a "faithful husband,"
good luck finding a girlfriend who can put up with that crap, weirdo.
Third of all, graduates of the American program cannot practice in Israel. I'm not sure about the Technion, but not from Sackler. If you want to practice in Israel, go to Budapest.
And for your last paragraph, I'm not even going to dignify what you said with a response. Your religious gospel has no place here. And it certainly has no place within the confines of a discussion of medical school.
Tell me something, how does one type with a straight jacket on?
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Good job!
I was too confused and weirded out by the rest of Dawkin's post, that I just decided to stop at the DO part. 
But your response was in fact needed for his post.
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I stand by what I said
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does anyone have the technion match list for 2009?
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1) DO's and MD's make the same salary. Much like school or any "job" take home pay has a lot to do with how much one is willing to put into it.
2) I have friend's in DO schools who are matching into ortho and other top notch residencies. The ortho guy is going thru the DO match though... but so what? he will be an ortho surg and someone w/ a foreign MD may never have that chance. that is a decision or a gamble anyone willing to study abroad for medicine must be willing to take.
3) the 2009 match results are not out for the Technion. They have never really published this data ever. There is a list on the website citing where grads have gone historically, but no match list. keep in mind the graduating class from the Technion in 2009 is only about 7 or 8 people. can we even count that as a match list?
4) following up on the DO vs Sackler etc. If a prospective student wants to pursue a less competitive career, and by that i include ob/gyn, internal, family and peds...even neurology, then studying in Israel is a fine choice.Obviously, matching itnernal med at Harvard or UCLA will be competitive no matter where one graduates from. ... The more competitive fields (optho, ortho, anesthesia, radiology) will be that much more competitive coming from an Israeli school. If one has the choice to stay stateside MD do so. If faced with the choice of DO vs Israel- it will come down to personal taste in degrees and also career aspirations. remember, DO's are trained in american hospitals, with american docs under american guidelines and are very familiar with the US system. They also have the good fortune of being able to match into their own residency system. DO's can match into derm, ortho, optho etc...IMG MD's do not have a special img match and therefore have a tougher time scoring those types of residencies.
There are also a number of hospitals that will not allow IMG's to rotate there but will allow DO's...this can have regional impacts on IMG's wishing to return home for residency; meaning an IMG MD may have a tougher time matching (possibility even interviewed) by a local hospital that bans IMGs for the 4th yr clerkships.
Ranking-wise...Sackler seems to be the 800 pound gorilla in Israel. Having such small class sizes for the last 15 years it is tough to really say where the Technion stands as far as reputation goes...time will tell as the TeAMS program grows (they flushed the Touro program a few yrs ago). BGU is really a unique program from what i understand, but i know very little about it.
2) I have friend's in DO schools who are matching into ortho and other top notch residencies. The ortho guy is going thru the DO match though... but so what? he will be an ortho surg and someone w/ a foreign MD may never have that chance. that is a decision or a gamble anyone willing to study abroad for medicine must be willing to take.
3) the 2009 match results are not out for the Technion. They have never really published this data ever. There is a list on the website citing where grads have gone historically, but no match list. keep in mind the graduating class from the Technion in 2009 is only about 7 or 8 people. can we even count that as a match list?
4) following up on the DO vs Sackler etc. If a prospective student wants to pursue a less competitive career, and by that i include ob/gyn, internal, family and peds...even neurology, then studying in Israel is a fine choice.Obviously, matching itnernal med at Harvard or UCLA will be competitive no matter where one graduates from. ... The more competitive fields (optho, ortho, anesthesia, radiology) will be that much more competitive coming from an Israeli school. If one has the choice to stay stateside MD do so. If faced with the choice of DO vs Israel- it will come down to personal taste in degrees and also career aspirations. remember, DO's are trained in american hospitals, with american docs under american guidelines and are very familiar with the US system. They also have the good fortune of being able to match into their own residency system. DO's can match into derm, ortho, optho etc...IMG MD's do not have a special img match and therefore have a tougher time scoring those types of residencies.
There are also a number of hospitals that will not allow IMG's to rotate there but will allow DO's...this can have regional impacts on IMG's wishing to return home for residency; meaning an IMG MD may have a tougher time matching (possibility even interviewed) by a local hospital that bans IMGs for the 4th yr clerkships.
Ranking-wise...Sackler seems to be the 800 pound gorilla in Israel. Having such small class sizes for the last 15 years it is tough to really say where the Technion stands as far as reputation goes...time will tell as the TeAMS program grows (they flushed the Touro program a few yrs ago). BGU is really a unique program from what i understand, but i know very little about it.
not FMG's but IMG's and we are still MD's not DO's there is a huge difference on paper and in practice, and most specialist residency programs that are MD dont even take DO's so
yes IMG MD from Israel >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> DO>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Carribean School
I feel this is a lot of disinformation taken out of context, at BGU no one has ever been denied electives or residencies because they were from Israel or were IMG's all of our paperwork goes through Columbia College of Physicians and Surgeons, so we dont pay extra fees, are not excluded, and actually get the same malpractice insurance coverage as Columbia Medical Students...
What I am about to say is based off of information from myself (a BGU soon to be graduate) a dear friend of mine (from Technion) and several Aquaintances I have made at various US confernces (from Sackler)
If you want the cut dry 4 years in 4 years out medical education that you would receive at even the very Best US medical School, than Sackler is the way to go
If you want to infuse a curriculum that diversifies and prepares you for the global challenges we all will face as future physicians, on top of your standard 2 years basic science and 2 years of clinical training then BGU is the way to go.
If you have a particular interest in the Academics of medicine (Basic Science more so than Clinical Science) then Technion is the way to go
All three are superb institutions, and there is overlap within and between all three Universities. People at Sackler and Technion are getting an international experience whether they are at BGU or not because...well they live in Israel, and we are the most diverse country in the middle east with populations of african refugees, Palestinians, Thai and Phillipino Migrant Workers, and the resident Ethiopian and Russian communities. People at BGU on the other hand also get that same 4 year US education and if they so choose can extend their free time in the pursuit of more academic endeavors, I myself have participated in both basic and clinical research as a student at BGU, additionally I was a paid Teaching assistant for my medical school and have been invited to lecture several times.
I feel that Sackler and Technion are equally diverse, my advice to those who seek it, is check them all out, because while the underlying principles of each medical school are the same, the learning environments vary slightly, its a different type of student at each program, so see where you fit best. All schools match competitive residencies, BGU has fewer applicants for specialties because the work we do encourages a focus on general practice, it is not to say that we don't have our gunners, Columbia Surgery and Yale Anesthesiology 2009.
The bottom line is this, all three schools are as competitive as US schools if not more so. In US medical schools we are seeing class sizes of 150 to up to as high as 300 per class, just like the Caribbean. Sackler BGU and Technion class sizes are no larger than 40-50, I think BGU's latest class is under 40, however applicant pools are up in the 2000's for each program. Average GPA's and MCATs are 3.5 and 30 for each program, so we are just as competitive in the numbers game. Each school looks for different things in their candidates after they pass the initial number screen.
This is known and taken into account when students apply for residency, all of this is. Its not just a sign up and you are in game like the Carribean, or a I didnt get in anywhere else where I can get an MD so I am going to a DO school. Most of BGU's students turned down matriculation at some of the top US medical schools to be at BGU because of the program it offers, I am sure Technion and Sackler it is the same.
Thats my story and I am sticking too it
Izzy
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Thanks! very informative. How did that gunner get into Columbia Presby for general surgery? Did he do research (it seems that's pretty much a requirement nowadays for GS at top academic centers)? How is the research opportunities at Ben Gurion?
I'm currently accepted at Sackler, but I've always been a little interested at BGU but didn't apply there because I wasn't too sure about the research opportunities. Also BGU is slightly more expensive than Sackler, and in a less fun of place than Tel Aviv.
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From talking with some BGU students, there are a lot of research opportunities at BGU. Some people were doing research in diabetes and molecular biology. I don't know too much about this though.
In terms of Sackler being cheaper, I don't think that's true. That's because the living expenses will be far greater in Tel Aviv than Beersheva. Since tuition at BGU is higher, I think in the end, total debt will be similar at each place.
As for DO...personally, I would never go DO and this is largely because I'm from Canada where the philosophy is unknown. I've never met a DO in Canada and I don't know anyone (other than myself) who has even heard of the philosophy. I do have the intention of possibly working in Canada in the future and things will be FAR easier if I were to do an MD residency in the US. HOWEVER, I have a lot of respect for DO's because I've done personal research into the philosophy and I know of many talented individuals that are studying at DO schools. In the end, we're all physicians with a great foundation in medical knowledge regardless of the school.
In terms of Sackler being cheaper, I don't think that's true. That's because the living expenses will be far greater in Tel Aviv than Beersheva. Since tuition at BGU is higher, I think in the end, total debt will be similar at each place.
As for DO...personally, I would never go DO and this is largely because I'm from Canada where the philosophy is unknown. I've never met a DO in Canada and I don't know anyone (other than myself) who has even heard of the philosophy. I do have the intention of possibly working in Canada in the future and things will be FAR easier if I were to do an MD residency in the US. HOWEVER, I have a lot of respect for DO's because I've done personal research into the philosophy and I know of many talented individuals that are studying at DO schools. In the end, we're all physicians with a great foundation in medical knowledge regardless of the school.
That gunner actually wasn't so much of a gunner, just someone dedicated to the pursuit of surgery and SHE must of impressed people during her electives, as a majority of our classes do, I think on average 95% of the electives completed by BGU students in the US are awarded honors, and it is rumored that we are actually more prepared culturally and empathetically for clinical rotations then our US counterparts, but again this is all speculation from our admin.
To the best of my knowledge I dont think she did any research during med school, she may have done some before
BGU is more expensive and the tuition is rising, and that is because we pay Columbia Presbyterian faculty with our money as well as the BGU-MSIH faculty
I did 2 years of research in dermatology while at BGU, another of my colleagues spent his whole med school career doing research in anaesthesiology and was actually working as sort of a physicians assitant for some time, there is a lot of opportunity for research and publishing, i know the class below me had like 5 kids at one time doing biochem research, they dont just need workers, they need the english skills our students bring to get papers in journals.
Research is easy to get at BGU and the physicians are more appreciative to the work you do as compared in the US where you are just another med student.
I think the discrepancy in the US is due to the fact that there is an overall deficiency of physicians in general, and so now we are seeing all sorts of different types of "qualified" professionals lend a hand in the burden of medicine.
We are a population of nearly 310 million, and we dont just care for our own citizens we have our neighbors to the south...and NORTH crossing the border to access our physician workload which further strains the matter. We have to rely heavily on DO's RN's PA's and several other brands of care, who although aren't MD's, certainly ease the burden on our decreasing physician workforce.
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The people who posted above saying that DO's are paid less than a MD in the same specialty, and that they have to put their names @the bottom on office signs are not right. I am a US trained MD who is board certified in internal medicine. Those things are not true.
I think for US students, if you are from New York area and perhaps if you are Jewish/Israeli citizen also, the Israeli schools might be a good choice. For other US citizens, such as from the Midwest, etc. where DO's are common, I'd think it would be better to go to a US DO school. They have their own residencies in things like dermatology and ortho, or they can apply to US MD residencies. Not many IMG's at all are going to get into any US radiology, neurosurgery or derm or urology residency, etc. Also, there is some uncertainty about how tight the MD residency match in the US is going to be in upcoming years, as the US is ramping up enrollment in both MD and DO programs.
I think for US students, if you are from New York area and perhaps if you are Jewish/Israeli citizen also, the Israeli schools might be a good choice. For other US citizens, such as from the Midwest, etc. where DO's are common, I'd think it would be better to go to a US DO school. They have their own residencies in things like dermatology and ortho, or they can apply to US MD residencies. Not many IMG's at all are going to get into any US radiology, neurosurgery or derm or urology residency, etc. Also, there is some uncertainty about how tight the MD residency match in the US is going to be in upcoming years, as the US is ramping up enrollment in both MD and DO programs.
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Sorry, didn't know it was a she. That's pretty awesome though. How do people do on the boards at BGU? Does the curriculum prepare you adequately for them or do you have to do a lot of self-studying? Thanks.
Boards in my class of 2009
2 people failed out of 44, I myself got 99 as did one of my roomates, and we werent the highest 3 digit scorers in the class, I think 4-5 other people had a two digit score of 99 as well so approximately 5-7 people got 99's
Step 2 Ck dont know about but that is less of a gauge as some people focus more on that to make up for lackluster step 1's and some people like myself could care less as it is not even looked at by programs i am applying too, but most people pass it
Does the school prepare us.....yes, you get the basics, what is not taught you learn on your own, just like in every other medical school,
no school "teaches" the step 1, they teach you the basic sciences in years 1 and 2, if you study for it and feel you are deficient in say orthopedics, then you have to learn it on your own, but all the basics and 90% of what is on the test is covered in lecture, but most people dont even go to lecture anyways
2 people failed out of 44, I myself got 99 as did one of my roomates, and we werent the highest 3 digit scorers in the class, I think 4-5 other people had a two digit score of 99 as well so approximately 5-7 people got 99's
Step 2 Ck dont know about but that is less of a gauge as some people focus more on that to make up for lackluster step 1's and some people like myself could care less as it is not even looked at by programs i am applying too, but most people pass it
Does the school prepare us.....yes, you get the basics, what is not taught you learn on your own, just like in every other medical school,
no school "teaches" the step 1, they teach you the basic sciences in years 1 and 2, if you study for it and feel you are deficient in say orthopedics, then you have to learn it on your own, but all the basics and 90% of what is on the test is covered in lecture, but most people dont even go to lecture anyways
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Wow, those are really awesome scores, you guys obviously work very hard. G'luck on the match.
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well, if your primary concerns are the finding easiest way to make the most money, then by all means.... I don't make the rules, bud.
You know, you can make good money selling drugs, too. And stripping. And I don't think it's that hard. Just putting it out there.
I don't make the rules, bud.You know, you can make good money selling drugs, too. And stripping. And I don't think it's that hard. Just putting it out there.
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CLEARLY AN OPHTHALMOLOGY DO RESIDENCY WILL BE EASIER TO MATCH THAN AN OPHTHALMOLOGY MD RESIDENCY, ESPECIALLY FOR SOMEONE WITH A 30+ MCAT IN DO SCHOOL. ALLEGEDLY THEY GET PAID THE SAME AMOUNT? HOW COULD THIS BE TRUE? Furthermore, not every medical student can match derm, ortho or ophthal from US allopathic schools. Basically what I am hearing is that 1) I can match into an MD derm, ortho, or ophthal program 2) As a 30+ MCATer I will more easily find a DO match in derm, ortho, or ophthal 3) It is easier to get into a DO program and 4) I will make the same amount of money as an MD??
Hmm. Sounds like a Madison Avenue marketing job to me.[/quote]
....if this is your logic, then clearly you are 1) not informed about the match system. and 2) you are clearly motivated by the wrong reasons.
mcat does not correlate with one's choice of specialty. based on that all harvard and ivy grads should be doing derm. bottom line is that most US MD grads and DO's and IMG's end up doing family, internal etc...why is this? because they want to be doctors and those are the residencies with the most seats. i am intentionally excluding other residencies for the sake of brevity.
anyway, the DO match is very competitive too. just because someone is at a DO school does not mean that the bar is any lower and that they can graduate with a D average and get derm. obviously, ppl need to perform there to, just like in MD school. naturally, if you are that well off academically, and want to fulfill a residency like that you will apply to both DO and MD residencies.
some states on the East coast and midwest have multiple DO schools and are very familiar with them. DO students rotate at MD hospitals for their rotations. not always, but it happens frequently. In the end you complete your residency you get a job with a hospital or practice and they pay you the same. there will be pricks out their who may look down at DO's...frankly, yeah they take lower caliber students- but guess what? the israeli schools are not accepting ivy league students either- bc if you are that qualified you probably didnt apply off shoreto begin with. there are an idealogical few, but the generality is as i stated. If you are qualified enough to gain acceptance to an Israeli school ie sackler or bgu then you are qualified for DO and will do just as well- your education at a DO school will be in the states and you will have access to two residencie matches.
Israeli grads do match well, but bare in mind that either choice has pros and cons as listed above. if you apply to the NYC area as an Israeli grad there will be hospitals that will look favorably upon you.
Hmm. Sounds like a Madison Avenue marketing job to me.[/quote]
....if this is your logic, then clearly you are 1) not informed about the match system. and 2) you are clearly motivated by the wrong reasons.
mcat does not correlate with one's choice of specialty. based on that all harvard and ivy grads should be doing derm. bottom line is that most US MD grads and DO's and IMG's end up doing family, internal etc...why is this? because they want to be doctors and those are the residencies with the most seats. i am intentionally excluding other residencies for the sake of brevity.
anyway, the DO match is very competitive too. just because someone is at a DO school does not mean that the bar is any lower and that they can graduate with a D average and get derm. obviously, ppl need to perform there to, just like in MD school. naturally, if you are that well off academically, and want to fulfill a residency like that you will apply to both DO and MD residencies.
some states on the East coast and midwest have multiple DO schools and are very familiar with them. DO students rotate at MD hospitals for their rotations. not always, but it happens frequently. In the end you complete your residency you get a job with a hospital or practice and they pay you the same. there will be pricks out their who may look down at DO's...frankly, yeah they take lower caliber students- but guess what? the israeli schools are not accepting ivy league students either- bc if you are that qualified you probably didnt apply off shoreto begin with. there are an idealogical few, but the generality is as i stated. If you are qualified enough to gain acceptance to an Israeli school ie sackler or bgu then you are qualified for DO and will do just as well- your education at a DO school will be in the states and you will have access to two residencie matches.
Israeli grads do match well, but bare in mind that either choice has pros and cons as listed above. if you apply to the NYC area as an Israeli grad there will be hospitals that will look favorably upon you.
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Dawkins, you misinterpreted what Medgrunt, and the rest of us, are saying. Not everyone WANTS to be in derm. Some people just really love kids and want to be pediatricians. And you don't have to go into medicine based on either one of two dichotomous reasons: altruism or money. There are so many other reasons, like a lifetime of learning, a career that integrates science and people, prestige... But I don't have to tell you, if you are going into medicine you must have your own equally credible reasons. Listen, DOs and MDs make the same amount. If you really want to become a dermatologist, then don't go to Israel. Don't go DO either. That kind of money doesn't just fall in your lap, no matter where you go to school. Do an SMP and or something and try to get into a stateside MD, instead of debating between off-shore and DO. Because they're apples and oranges and neither of them is really going to make it "easy" for you.
This is simply not true. There is a high correlation between MCAT score and Step 1 scores. MCAT has almost no correlation with Step 2 scores. This research was published in the journal Academic Medicine.
The statistical evidence shows that higher MCAT scores leads to higher Step 1 scores. This leads to opening doors in more competitive residencies.
Basco, W.T., Jr., Way, D.P., Gilbert, G.E., & Hudson, A. (2002). Undergraduate Institutional MCAT Scores as Predictors of USMLE Step 1 Performance. Academic Medicine, 77, S13-S16.)
Dawkins, please dont take this the wrong way, but you need to learn how to interpret significance, this reports is well known rubbish, and fails to mention several issues.
Yes there may be a correlation between high MCAT scores and Step 1 scores, and doors are open for higher step 1 people, but that doesnt mean that there arent more doors to go through, or that people with those scores even choose to walk through those doors.
I know 10's of people with 99's on their boards who choose not competitive-residencies, and i know even more people with 92-98's on their boards that choose competitive residencies. That report is rubbish and is not applicable to reality, a lot of students who do poorly on their MCAT improve dramatically on their Step 1's, and the fact of the matter is their are a lot of students who do well on step 1 and the MCAT but have the personality and clinical skills of a mildewy sock.
Finally, I dont agree with yours or anyone else, if your main reason for entering the field of medicine is money driven, if it is you are a fool. The average national debt for a student leavintg medical school now is 150K add in all the extras its almost 200K, now take how much residents and new hirees post residency make, minus living expenses, taxes, malpractice, and all that and you still arent sitting pretty. You have to work 10 years at least before you can afford to move out of that apartment or 2 bedroom home and upgrade....its people like you that reflect a false sense of worth and delusion in new applicants
I REPEAT doctors (MD's or DO's) do not make as much as you think...there are expenses you don't even know about, please stop perpetuating this ridiculousness....
To boot, we are slowly creeping towards a socialized government owned system in which physicians will be compensated drastically less, and since there are no doctor unions, we will all just have to take it, or move to where our services are more compensated.
I hope to god, that you have better reasons for entering health care aside from money, and there are indeed plenty of reasons!
The statistical evidence shows that higher MCAT scores leads to higher Step 1 scores. This leads to opening doors in more competitive residencies.
Basco, W.T., Jr., Way, D.P., Gilbert, G.E., & Hudson, A. (2002). Undergraduate Institutional MCAT Scores as Predictors of USMLE Step 1 Performance. Academic Medicine, 77, S13-S16.)
Dawkins, please dont take this the wrong way, but you need to learn how to interpret significance, this reports is well known rubbish, and fails to mention several issues.
Yes there may be a correlation between high MCAT scores and Step 1 scores, and doors are open for higher step 1 people, but that doesnt mean that there arent more doors to go through, or that people with those scores even choose to walk through those doors.
I know 10's of people with 99's on their boards who choose not competitive-residencies, and i know even more people with 92-98's on their boards that choose competitive residencies. That report is rubbish and is not applicable to reality, a lot of students who do poorly on their MCAT improve dramatically on their Step 1's, and the fact of the matter is their are a lot of students who do well on step 1 and the MCAT but have the personality and clinical skills of a mildewy sock.
Finally, I dont agree with yours or anyone else, if your main reason for entering the field of medicine is money driven, if it is you are a fool. The average national debt for a student leavintg medical school now is 150K add in all the extras its almost 200K, now take how much residents and new hirees post residency make, minus living expenses, taxes, malpractice, and all that and you still arent sitting pretty. You have to work 10 years at least before you can afford to move out of that apartment or 2 bedroom home and upgrade....its people like you that reflect a false sense of worth and delusion in new applicants
I REPEAT doctors (MD's or DO's) do not make as much as you think...there are expenses you don't even know about, please stop perpetuating this ridiculousness....
To boot, we are slowly creeping towards a socialized government owned system in which physicians will be compensated drastically less, and since there are no doctor unions, we will all just have to take it, or move to where our services are more compensated.
I hope to god, that you have better reasons for entering health care aside from money, and there are indeed plenty of reasons!
Disagree with you as well, not trying to start fights or anything, but if you look at match lists of the past (for Sackler and BGU), Israel Schools match pretty successfully, and if you take into account that our class sizes are drastically smaller than US MD and DO schools then we are on par with US schools by percentage, again we matched Yale anasthesiology this year and Columbia Presby Surgery we had 2-3 Med/Peds match and the rest were psych internal ob/gyn and peds (but again this is out of 35 people), Sackler last year matched Neurosurgery and a bunch of Anasthesiology, people have gone optho in the past, and at my school no one has matched derm because no one has tried...yet
So I definately disagree with the assessment that an Israeli school precludes you from obtaining competitive residencies, because based on the past it doesn't. However, it all depends on the student, and how hard he/she works, as in the case in all medical schools!
I would also like to point out for the people considering DO schools, it is not easy to match into DO residencies like Derm and Optho, because and I know this for Derm only, there are only 10 Derm DO residencies, and each take under 4 people, so 40 spots for god knows how many derm DO applicants, actually makes it more competitive than MD derm...but again thats only for derm, the only thing I know about, I imagine optho, and specialty surgery fields to be about the same!
access my friend does not equal acceptance, not now not ever, and if they want to use the term access (in this poster, which by the way if it was so significant would have been a journal article somewhere), every medical student who applies to residency has access to specialties, if you look at the NRMP from 2007 in almost every specialty and non-specialty students with less than a 200 matched, if then by your logic, these students had low step 1 scores, than I suppose you would have us believe their MCAT scores were low as well....yet they still matched into highly competitive residencies
things that make you go hmmmmm?????
did not mean to insult, I was simply illuminating that this study has been deemed flawed, since a majority of the MCAT is not medically related, i.e. students can rock biological sciences and do poorly on physical and chemical sciences and still annihilate step 1 (composed mostly of the biological sciences)
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Ummmm... no one said anything about being an Israeli med school grad precluding one from competitive residencies. Did I say that? I said it's not easy. And we were talking about derm as an example. There haven't been any derm residencies for as far back as I can find match lists from Sackler. There was a plastics from Technion a couple years ago, so anything is possible. But Dawkins was asking about what makes it EASIER to get into the money fields. So, please don't take my post out of context.
If you really want to become a dermatologist, then don't go to Israel. Don't go DO either.
These were your words caseofthemndays, you werent saying its not easy to get competitive residencies coming from Israel, you said if you want a competitive residency DONT GO TO ISRAEL
Forgot mention Dr. Yuval a resident at the Tufts/BU Residency is from Ben-Gurion Univeristy in Be'er Sheva!
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Izzy, that is a strawman argument. I cannot have an intelligent argument with someone who refuses to do so with respect and maturity. I'm done responding to you.
If you dont want to argue, and claim that I am incapable of having an intelligent "discussion", then why would you claim to not have said something that only a few hours earlier you clearly stated.
I understand that truth hurts sometimes, but to blatantly deny and refute something that you yourself said, that is posted for all eyes to see, indicates there may be some misgivings in your self-respect, respect for others, and maturity...
In conclusion, if you cannot back up your claims, and then choose to make them anyways, maybe its best to not make those claims at all...
Just a suggestion, and I do not wish to treat with you for the sake of argument, questions are asked, answers are given, there are a lot misnomers about Israeli schools and their status in comparison to the other options. I am fortunate enough to have first-hand access to the answers of questions being asked, if this offends you than I apologize, maybe this isnt the best board for you to be on!
