saba vs. australia

[Drwanabe]

Hi, i was wondering if it was cheaper to go to australia (flinders,or queensland) vs. Saba, in the long run with regards to tuition/rent/travel, etc. Any comments would be great.

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[Alphonsine]

Hi, i was wondering if it was cheaper to go to australia (flinders,or queensland) vs. Saba, in the long run with regards to tuition/rent/travel, etc. Any comments would be great.

I would tend to go with Australia. My father says it's just like Canada except (1) way better weather, (2) they drive on the wrong side of the road down there, (3) it's farther away from the mainland i.e. America or Europe.

Saba is a small island. It's like going to the Caribbean.

 

[shirochan88]

well the australian schools range in prices as to the carab schools

Queensland is currenty 42000 au per year
and saba u pay 8000- 10000 per semister, think there is up to three
so in the long run probalby save more at SABA. However if your planning on going back to US or Canada for Residency I believe they think better of you if your from Australian school just like Irish ones

check the websites of the schools and look for financial info

hope that helps

I"m in the same situation as you. I am contemplating going aborad for med in a few years once I"m done my grad degree.

so far what I've come to the conclusion that I"ll be in debt no matter what lol, but more so if I go to Australia, however guess it offers me a better chance of a more competitive residency then Carab school

With that said I have nothing against carab schools there are tons of good doctors and those who achieve good residency but its just a trent and the additude

 

[JoeNamaMD]

If you are Canadian you are better off going to an Australian school than one in the Caribbean.

 

[willcandude]

i heard that getting a residency in canada depends on how well you do on the board, and the reference letters... people tell me reputation doesn't really matter... advantage of carribean is majority of clincials are in US, but i'm not sure if that gives you advantage when applying for canadian residency

 

[PEN15]

i heard that getting a residency in canada depends on how well you do on the board, and the reference letters... people tell me reputation doesn't really matter... advantage of carribean is majority of clincials are in US, but i'm not sure if that gives you advantage when applying for canadian residency

how many caribbean grads do you know successfully obtained a residency in Canada after graduation? Almost zero based on the current match results. An Australian medical degree looks better than a Caribbean medical degree.

 

[Alphonsine]

how many caribbean grads do you know successfully obtained a residency in Canada after graduation? Almost zero based on the current match results. An Australian medical degree looks better than a Caribbean medical degree.

I agree with PEN15. Sorry...but a Caribbean medical degree is useless for Canada. At least with Australia, you can STAY in Oz to practice, live. Oz is a wonderful place, just like Canada except it's farther away from North America. I may or may not come back to Canada after graduating from UQ.

 

[psychoclops]

Hey,

I am a little confused as to why an Australian degree would be better than a Caribbean one for someone who plans to return to Canada. The way I see it you are an IMG either way which makes the process of coming back to Canada difficult whether you have an Austrlaian degree or a Caribbean one. Is there any evidence that an Australian degree has some advantage over a Carib. one? I would really appreciate any response that could shed some light on this.

Thanks

 

[Alphonsine]

Hey,

I am a little confused as to why an Australian degree would be better than a Caribbean one for someone who plans to return to Canada. The way I see it you are an IMG either way which makes the process of coming back to Canada difficult whether you have an Austrlaian degree or a Caribbean one. Is there any evidence that an Australian degree has some advantage over a Carib. one? I would really appreciate any response that could shed some light on this.

Thanks

Dude, Aussie PR status is easy to get. After you graduate, it takes about 6 months, during which you're an Royal Medical Officer (who are paid Aus $80,000). Everyone, including Aussies have to be an RMO for 1-2 years. After which you apply for residency for Australia. After you are finished the Australian residency, you can sit for the Canadian board exams.

Exactly where are you going to do your residency if you go to the Caribbean? Canada won't take you.

We're not talking about coming back to Canada for residency. We're talking about staying in Australia for residency.

This is such a ridiculous question really. Australia is a country on its own and a 1st world country at that, which average GDP higher than Canada and the USA. The Caribbean...is a 3rd world country, if you can even call those islands countries. Last time I heard, Ross in the Caribbean graduates about 1000 medical students a year. That's 1 Carribbean medical school. GOOD LUCK finding a residency position.

Australia has about 150 international students total per year in this medical school with about 850 locals...you do the math. Australian international students can stay in Australia. GOOD LUCK finding a residency spot coming from the Caribbean.

 

[willcandude]

Dude, Aussie PR status is easy to get. After you graduate, it takes about 6 months, during which you're an Royal Medical Officer (who are paid Aus $80,000). Everyone, including Aussies have to be an RMO for 1-2 years. After which you apply for residency for Australia. After you are finished the Australian residency, you can sit for the Canadian board exams.

Exactly where are you going to do your residency if you go to the Caribbean? Canada won't take you.

We're not talking about coming back to Canada for residency. We're talking about staying in Australia for residency.

This is such a ridiculous question really. Australia is a country on its own and a 1st world country at that, which average GDP higher than Canada and the USA. The Caribbean...is a 3rd world country, if you can even call those islands countries. Last time I heard, Ross in the Caribbean graduates about 1000 medical students a year. That's 1 Carribbean medical school. GOOD LUCK finding a residency position.

Australia has about 150 international students total per year in this medical school with about 850 locals...you do the math. Australian international students can stay in Australia. GOOD LUCK finding a residency spot coming from the Caribbean.

from my understanding, you can write the Canadian board exams immediately after graduation. u don't need to do the internship or residency years in Australia to write the exam

with carribean, most people who go there are Amercians wanting to practice back in US. i think very few Carribean grads would go the Canadian route.

Alphonsine, i think psychollops is asking about getting residency back in Canada.. how does having 850 locals relate to his question?

 

[psychoclops]

Dude, Aussie PR status is easy to get. After you graduate, it takes about 6 months, during which you're an Royal Medical Officer (who are paid Aus $80,000). Everyone, including Aussies have to be an RMO for 1-2 years. After which you apply for residency for Australia. After you are finished the Australian residency, you can sit for the Canadian board exams.

Exactly where are you going to do your residency if you go to the Caribbean? Canada won't take you.

We're not talking about coming back to Canada for residency. We're talking about staying in Australia for residency.

This is such a ridiculous question really. Australia is a country on its own and a 1st world country at that, which average GDP higher than Canada and the USA. The Caribbean...is a 3rd world country, if you can even call those islands countries. Last time I heard, Ross in the Caribbean graduates about 1000 medical students a year. That's 1 Carribbean medical school. GOOD LUCK finding a residency position.

Australia has about 150 international students total per year in this medical school with about 850 locals...you do the math. Australian international students can stay in Australia. GOOD LUCK finding a residency spot coming from the Caribbean.

In my previous post I was actually talking about doing residency in Canada after graduating from med school. However, if someone was to write the Canadian board exams and finish residency in Australia how easy/ difficult is it to get a job in Canada? Does anyone have some websites I can look at for this information?
To answer your question about where someone can do residency if they go to a Caribbean medical school...........for most people it is the US. However I have heard of some success stories of people finding residencies in Canada after graduating from the Caribbean (but these are few).

 

[Off2Oz]

If you are Canadian you are better off going to an Australian school than one in the Caribbean.

I hate to be a killjoy here, but what do you base this statement on?

The Caribbean schools (ie. SGU) do all their clinical training in 3rd and 4th year in the USA. AND they mirror the American curriculum. Overall, they're training people to be US doctors..

I'm currently (a Canadian) studying at an Aussie school, and I really believe that spending year 3 AND 4 in the US clinical setting is a HUGE advantage for people that want to return to North America to practice (in comparison to the 2 months I can get here in 4th year).

Please don't be swayed by "They look at Aussie schools more favorably than Caribbean schools" just because someone anonymously posted it on SDN. Go to the websites of the schools, send emails, and get yourself educated on what's out there.

Cheers.

 

[Off2Oz]

Dude, Aussie PR status is easy to get. After you graduate, it takes about 6 months, during which you're an Royal Medical Officer (who are paid Aus $80,000). Everyone, including Aussies have to be an RMO for 1-2 years. After which you apply for residency for Australia. After you are finished the Australian residency, you can sit for the Canadian board exams.

Exactly where are you going to do your residency if you go to the Caribbean? Canada won't take you.

We're not talking about coming back to Canada for residency. We're talking about staying in Australia for residency.

This is such a ridiculous question really. Australia is a country on its own and a 1st world country at that, which average GDP higher than Canada and the USA. The Caribbean...is a 3rd world country, if you can even call those islands countries. Last time I heard, Ross in the Caribbean graduates about 1000 medical students a year. That's 1 Carribbean medical school. GOOD LUCK finding a residency position.

Australia has about 150 international students total per year in this medical school with about 850 locals...you do the math. Australian international students can stay in Australia. GOOD LUCK finding a residency spot coming from the Caribbean.

Most of this person's post is based entirely in fiction. The Caribbean is a geographic area within which lie many countries. Yes, you can actually call them "countries".

Next, go here:
http://www.rossu.edu/med/academics/faqsaboutaca_061.cfm

Ross's class size is 250 (approximately) - not 1000. Lots of other information freely available there too.

Next.. Australia is a first world country, yes. I have no idea why GDP is important for a medical student, but here it is anyway (at #15, well below Canada/USA)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita

Also, I don't have the time or patience to feed this troll any longer, so you can look up something called a "10-year moratorium" on internationals here in Australia in your time. Not trying to dissuade here, just attempting to convince people here to look up their own information and come to their own conclusions based on sound, non-emotion-based non-reactionary judgement.

Please, if you're going to post here, keep in mind that you are influencing people that are making important decisions in their lives.

Don't make the water any more murky.

 

[Alphonsine]

In my previous post I was actually talking about doing residency in Canada after graduating from med school. However, if someone was to write the Canadian board exams and finish residency in Australia how easy/ difficult is it to get a job in Canada? Does anyone have some websites I can look at for this information?
To answer your question about where someone can do residency if they go to a Caribbean medical school...........for most people it is the US. However I have heard of some success stories of people finding residencies in Canada after graduating from the Caribbean (but these are few).

(1) Of course the Caribbean medical schools publish nice stats on their websites. They want to take your money. Of course, Australia wants $$$ too but if you do the numbers..Caribbean medical schools graduate thousands of medical school students a year...Ross for example, where my friend is at, has graduated 4000-5000 students since 2003. Are you telling me all these 4000-5000 students found residency matches in the USA? Or is Ross putting some bogus info on their webiste?

(2) PLUS, you're a Canadian, not an US citizen. Most of the Caribbean students are US citizens so matching into the US will be easier for them.

(3) If you do your residency in Australia, it'll be quite easy to come back to Canada after the board exams. 1st: if you're a FM, you can open your own practice anywheres. 2nd: Australia is more famous than Canada for many subspecialities such as: (1) dermatology --> best in the world!!! (2) dermatopathology --> best in the world!!! (3) many surgical subspecialities. Austalia has many world famous doctors and world famous hospitals. Name some that are practicing in the Caribbean. Believe me, if you graduate from one of those subspecialties in Oz, you'll have no problems coming back to Canada. You'll be offered jobs after jobs.

If you want to go to the Caribbean...fine. As a fellow Canadian I wish you the best of luck after graduation.

 

[Alphonsine]

Most of this person's post is based entirely in fiction. The Caribbean is a geographic area within which lie many countries. Yes, you can actually call them "countries".

Next, go here:
http://www.rossu.edu/med/academics/faqsaboutaca_061.cfm

Ross's class size is 250 (approximately) - not 1000. Lots of other information freely available there too.

Next.. Australia is a first world country, yes. I have no idea why GDP is important for a medical student, but here it is anyway (at #15, well below Canada/USA)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita

Also, I don't have the time or patience to feed this troll any longer, so you can look up something called a "10-year moratorium" on internationals here in Australia in your time. Not trying to dissuade here, just attempting to convince people here to look up their own information and come to their own conclusions based on sound, non-emotion-based non-reactionary judgement.

mcmasted@ucalgary_ca

Please, if you're going to post here, keep in mind that you are influencing people that are making important decisions in their lives.

Don't make the water any more murky.

Yes...Ross graduates 250 students per cycle, but they have 3 points of entrances per year. So that's about 750 students per year, which is the size of about 8-9 normal sized medical schools.

As for GDP per capital, there are different calculations. By some, Aus is ranked higher than Canada or the USA.

And I don't consider any of the Caribbean Islands "countries." Next time there's a hurricane, one of those islands might get wiped off a map.

I don't know much about the 10 year moratorium...but can Australia strictly enforce that if you find a job in Canada after you finish residency? I mean, you'd be living in a country 1/2 way around the world.

 

[Off2Oz]

Yes...Ross graduates 250 students per cycle, but they have 3 points of entrances per year. So that's about 750 students per year, which is the size of about 8-9 normal sized medical schools.

As for GDP per capital, there are different calculations. By some, Aus is ranked higher than Canada or the USA.

And I don't consider any of the Caribbean Islands "countries." Next time there's a hurricane, one of those islands might get wiped off a map.

I don't know much about the 10 year moratorium...but can Australia strictly enforce that if you find a job in Canada after you finish residency? I mean, you'd be living in a country 1/2 way around the world.

The moratorium deals with staying in Australia. If you go back to Canada it doesn't affect you.

GDP is irrelevant. The figures I quoted were from wikipedia, and reference the international monetary fund or world bank. I believe the only relevance of this to our discussion is that you believe GDP to be a subjective matter that relates in some way to medical education.

As for hurricanes wiping countries off of "the map".. well, that statement is also irrelevant. All you're doing is portraying yourself in a bad light with statements such as that one.

Finally, touche! I didn't realize that Ross accepts 750 students overall per year. Although I'm not sure why this fact is important either. UQ accepts in excess of 450 students per year.. so what?

The more important questions here are whether the numbers actually affect medical education.

My argument is that one must look for information for themselves rather than listening to emotionally charged anecdotes...

 

[Alphonsine]

The moratorium deals with staying in Australia. If you go back to Canada it doesn't affect you.

GDP is irrelevant. The figures I quoted were from wikipedia, and reference the international monetary fund. I believe the only relevance of this to our discussion is that you believe GDP to be a subjective matter that relates in some way to medical education.

As for hurricanes wiping countries off of "the map".. well, that statement is also irrelevant. All you're doing is portraying yourself in a bad light with statements such as that one.

Finally, touche! I didn't realize that Ross accepts 750 students overall per year. Although I'm not sure why this fact is important either. UQ accepts in excess of 450 students per year.. so what?

The more important questions here are whether the numbers actually affect medical education.

My argument is that one must look for information for themselves rather than listening to emotionally charged anecdotes...

Numbers don't affect a medical education. A real education comes with in.

However, numbers affect your life after graduation so I would look at them well.

Personally, I would love to go back to the USA. I lived there for years though I'm not a US citizen. I have friends and loved ones there and the USA is my 1st choice as a country. However, I'm being realistic here...

 

[psychoclops]

(1) Of course the Caribbean medical schools publish nice stats on their websites. They want to take your money. Of course, Australia wants $$$ too but if you do the numbers..Caribbean medical schools graduate thousands of medical school students a year...Ross for example, where my friend is at, has graduated 4000-5000 students since 2003. Are you telling me all these 4000-5000 students found residency matches in the USA? Or is Ross putting some bogus info on their webiste?

(2) PLUS, you're a Canadian, not an US citizen. Most of the Caribbean students are US citizens so matching into the US will be easier for them.

(3) If you do your residency in Australia, it'll be quite easy to come back to Canada after the board exams. 1st: if you're a FM, you can open your own practice anywheres. 2nd: Australia is more famous than Canada for many subspecialities such as: (1) dermatology --> best in the world!!! (2) dermatopathology --> best in the world!!! (3) many surgical subspecialities. Austalia has many world famous doctors and world famous hospitals. Name some that are practicing in the Caribbean. Believe me, if you graduate from one of those subspecialties in Oz, you'll have no problems coming back to Canada. You'll be offered jobs after jobs.

If you want to go to the Caribbean...fine. As a fellow Canadian I wish you the best of luck after graduation.

First of all I just want to point out that although Ross accepts about 250 students for every incoming class according to their website, from what I read on the carib. forum their attrition rate is quite high. So they're admitting many students who don't make it all the way to the end.
Secondly, these specialities that you mentioned seem that they are probably in very high demand in Australia. Wouldn't local students be given preference over int. students even if the int. student obtains PR status? Is there anyone who has had experience with this whole issue of returning to Canada after completing residency in Australia?
Lastly, I am not advocating going to a Caribbean school over an Australian school, but I am skeptical about generalizations made earlier.

 

[Alphonsine]

Also, Ross is only one of 13 Caribbean medical schools and it has over 750 students per year.

Yes...UQ is huge, as is Sydney, with 400 and 300 students each. But at least in 2005, Australia as a whole country had 1000 medical school students total. It may have increased since then, but still way fewer than the Caribbean. Basically, the Caribbean graduates more med students than either Canada or Australia.

 

[Alphonsine]

First of all I just want to point out that although Ross accepts about 250 students for every incoming class according to their website, from what I read on the carib. forum their attrition rate is quite high. So they're admitting many students who don't make it all the way to the end.
Secondly, these specialities that you mentioned seem that they are probably in very high demand in Australia. Wouldn't local students be given preference over int. students even if the int. student obtains PR status? Is there anyone who has had experience with this whole issue of returning to Canada after completing residency in Australia?
Lastly, I am not advocating going to a Caribbean school over an Australian school, but I am skeptical about generalizations made earlier.

No...why would they? Once you're PR, you're the same as everyone else. Besides, you'll have PR before your residency application so they'll never know. They're not gonna ask, "When did you get PR?" As a child of immigrants, PR is PR is PR. Not if your parents got here earlier than somebody else. Australia is a country for immigrants.

I'm not saying you have to get into dermatology to find jobs in Canada. You can still do a Internal Med and find a job in Canada. But the fact is finding a residency position is Australia is easier than the Caribbean getting back into Canada. I have a lot of family friends who are IMG and it took them anywheres from 6-9 years of doing life science research in Canada to get into residency programs in Canada. There are plenty of doctors from India/China driving taxis in Toronto. The only thing you have over them is your English is better. Besides, I wouldn't mind living in Oz permanently but I would not want to live in the Caribbean.

I really don't want to argue. You're free to make your own decisions and go to the Caribbean

 

[willcandude]

hey i have a question. lets say i do internal medicine residency in australia. after finishing that and wanting to work in Canada, do I just take fellowship exam in Canada? would I need to go through the board exams again - mccee?

but then by then so many years have passed that i probably wouldn't want to move haha. but anyhow, anyone knows?

 

[Off2Oz]

First of all I just want to point out that although Ross accepts about 250 students for every incoming class according to their website, from what I read on the carib. forum their attrition rate is quite high. So they're admitting many students who don't make it all the way to the end.
Secondly, these specialities that you mentioned seem that they are probably in very high demand in Australia. Wouldn't local students be given preference over int. students even if the int. student obtains PR status? Is there anyone who has had experience with this whole issue of returning to Canada after completing residency in Australia?
Lastly, I am not advocating going to a Caribbean school over an Australian school, but I am skeptical about generalizations made earlier.

Hey, with regard to returning to Canada from Oz - it's pretty easy. If you're a Canadian citizen, of course. I've looked into it pretty extensively, and it's not that bad at all. We even get into the first round of the match.. I'm originally from Ontario, btw.

However, I still maintain that SGU/Ross are superior to Aussie schools if your intent is to practice in the USA. Of course, this is from the perspective of a non-US citizen.

Bottom line is this: If you're Canadian, it's easy to return to Canada from Australia (if you're not choosy with specialty). If you're a Canadian planning on going to the US, then the Caribbean is worth a look.

 

[Off2Oz]

hey i have a question. lets say i do internal medicine residency in australia. after finishing that and wanting to work in Canada, do I just take fellowship exam in Canada? would I need to go through the board exams again - mccee?

but then by then so many years have passed that i probably wouldn't want to move haha. but anyhow, anyone knows?

Yeah.. it sucks, but you have to write the boards no matter what. ie. if you're a doctor working in Australia, you'll have to write all 3 steps of the USMLE.

Not 100% sure on Canada though, although I'd imagine it's the same.. you need to get licensed via the board exams..

 

[Alphonsine]

Yeah.. it sucks, but you have to write the boards no matter what. ie. if you're a doctor working in Australia, you'll have to write all 3 steps of the USMLE.

Not 100% sure on Canada though, although I'd imagine it's the same.. you need to get licensed via the board exams..

US medical graduates will have to write all 3 steps of the USMLE too.

Personally, I will sit for the boards in 3 countries: USA, OZ, and Canada and go from there. It's probably similar matierial but in different format. I heard the USMLEs are easier than the Canadian boards...

 

[Alphonsine]

Hey, with regard to returning to Canada from Oz - it's pretty easy. If you're a Canadian citizen, of course. I've looked into it pretty extensively, and it's not that bad at all. We even get into the first round of the match.. I'm originally from Ontario, btw.

However, I still maintain that SGU/Ross are superior to Aussie schools if your intent is to practice in the USA. Of course, this is from the perspective of a non-US citizen.

Bottom line is this: If you're Canadian, it's easy to return to Canada from Australia (if you're not choosy with specialty). If you're a Canadian planning on going to the US, then the Caribbean is worth a look.

If you're a Canadian planning on going to the USA and end up in the Caribbean, I suggest you marry an Yankee while you're there to broaden your chances.

 

[Off2Oz]

If you're a Canadian planning on going to the USA and end up in the Caribbean, I suggest you marry an Yankee while you're there to broaden your chances.

Does marrying an American increased one's chances at a residency spot? Why do you suggest this?

Also, I'm going to write the USMLE Step 1 in less than 2 months.. In what regard is easier than Canadian boards? I'm writing the Canadian board exams as well.. but from what I can see, they don't have an equivalent to Step 1 (ie. a basic medical sciences exam).

 

[Alphonsine]

Does marrying an American increased one's chances at a residency spot? Why do you suggest this?

Also, I'm going to write the USMLE Step 1 in less than 2 months.. In what regard is easier than Canadian boards? I'm writing the Canadian board exams as well.. but from what I can see, they don't have an equivalent to Step 1 (ie. a basic medical sciences exam).

Being an American does help if you're trying to get into the USA. Non-USA citizen + IMG --> chance in hell. Caribbean medical schools cater mostly to Americans, not Canadians. As a Canadian, you will get the shaft. Shut out of the USA and Canada and Australia...where will you go? So, the Caribbean medical schools have a high attrition rate. Have you considered maybe one of the reasons for the high rate is that people are dropping out because they figured it wasn't worth it?

What I mean is after your residency, you have to take your licensing exams and I heard the American one was easier than the Royal College.

 

[willcandude]

US medical graduates will have to write all 3 steps of the USMLE too.

Personally, I will sit for the boards in 3 countries: USA, OZ, and Canada and go from there. It's probably similar matierial but in different format. I heard the USMLEs are easier than the Canadian boards...

woah sit for all 3?!?

 

[Alphonsine]

Yes all 3 countries. I'll be very busy.

Sometimes, I think a lot of people have an unhealthy obsession with America like it's the promised land. But the fact is, the USA has a lot of social problems. Walking downtown in many American cities is like going into a huge gang fight. Crime + violence + scary people all around. In Baltimore, Altanta, Washington D.C, doctors have to be accompanied to the parking lot by security guards because it's too dangerous to walk across the street from the hospital to the park lot to get their car. They actually had to build a skybridge for that in Georgetown Hospital because it was getting too dangerous. There are dozens of armed guards with guns in and out of the hospital, like a scene from some movie but it's real life.

If you look at quality of life and the best cities to live, Canada and Australia usually come out the winners...Toronto, Vancouver, Calgary, Brisbane, Melbourne, Sydney, Adelaide are all ranked very highly in the "Best cities to live in the world."

I love the USA for personal reasons but let's face it...it might be a superpower but it's not the best country to live in by a stretch.

 

[johnnyb255]

US medical graduates will have to write all 3 steps of the USMLE too.

Personally, I will sit for the boards in 3 countries: USA, OZ, and Canada and go from there. It's probably similar matierial but in different format. I heard the USMLEs are easier than the Canadian boards...

To clarify, there aren't 'boards' for Australian med students, only your own university exams (as in end of semester) and then speciality college exams (during a training program or to get your fellowship etc). The only standardized 'licensing' exam are for international graduates- the AMC exam.

There, I've cut a third of your workload. That said, having played with taking the USMLE myself, you really have to consider the fact Australian medical schools aren't designed to prepare you for USMLE exams, they are designed to produce Australian interns, and the 'extra' (ie. different from your curriculum) study you have to do will be significant.

Dude, Aussie PR status is easy to get. After you graduate, it takes about 6 months, during which you're an Royal Medical Officer (who are paid Aus $80,000). Everyone, including Aussies have to be an RMO for 1-2 years. After which you apply for residency for Australia.

Just to clean up your terms a little, RMO stands for Resident Medical Officer, not Royal, and the pay is around AU$50k base for your first year. Overtime is dependant on your unit, so I wouldn't necessarily bet on it, but it can significantly increase your pay.

Also 'residency' in Australia refers to time when you're NOT in a training program (ie. when you're a RMO), though it isn't used in that tense commonly- (eg. I was a resident at X Hosp. rather than I did my residency at X Hosp.)- though terms are often state things so Queensland (I think you're at?) may say residency.

 

[Alphonsine]

To clarify, there aren't 'boards' for Australian med students, only your own university exams (as in end of semester) and then speciality college exams (during a training program or to get your fellowship etc). The only standardized 'licensing' exam are for international graduates- the AMC exam.

There, I've cut a third of your workload. That said, having played with taking the USMLE myself, you really have to consider the fact Australian medical schools aren't designed to prepare you for USMLE exams, they are designed to produce Australian interns, and the 'extra' (ie. different from your curriculum) study you have to do will be significant.



Just to clean up your terms a little, RMO stands for Resident Medical Officer, not Royal, and the pay is around AU$50k base for your first year. Overtime is dependant on your unit, so I wouldn't necessarily bet on it, but it can significantly increase your pay.

Also 'residency' in Australia refers to time when you're NOT in a training program (ie. when you're a RMO), though it isn't used in that tense commonly- (eg. I was a resident at X Hosp. rather than I did my residency at X Hosp.)- though terms are often state things so Queensland (I think you're at?) may say residency.

Thank you very much for your clarification.

 

[JoeNamaMD]

Yes all 3 countries. I'll be very busy.

Sometimes, I think a lot of people have an unhealthy obsession with America like it's the promised land. But the fact is, the USA has a lot of social problems. Walking downtown in many American cities is like going into a huge gang fight. Crime + violence + scary people all around. In Baltimore, Altanta, Washington D.C, doctors have to be accompanied to the parking lot by security guards because it's too dangerous to walk across the street from the hospital to the park lot to get their car. They actually had to build a skybridge for that in Georgetown Hospital because it was getting too dangerous. There are dozens of armed guards with guns in and out of the hospital, like a scene from some movie but it's real life.

If you look at quality of life and the best cities to live, Canada and Australia usually come out the winners...Toronto, Vancouver, Calgary, Brisbane, Melbourne, Sydney, Adelaide are all ranked very highly in the "Best cities to live in the world."

I love the USA for personal reasons but let's face it...it might be a superpower but it's not the best country to live in by a stretch.

Very true, a lot of Asian students I have met often look at me funny when I tell them I came from the USA, they all wonder why I want to be in Australia. I don't think the USA will have a dominant economic position for much longer, the rapid decline of the US Dollar is irreversible, the Euro is going to become the world currency in the coming years.

A lot of cities in Western Europe rank high for quality of life, even better than Oz and Canada. Germany had the highest number of cities in the quality of life index. Even a few places in the former GDR were considered better than a big city in the US. Australia actually has a fairly high crime rate, it used to be a penal colony, the place I where I lived was robbed once. A doctor was beaten up in train station near where live, so it is not crime free at all, still its less severe than in the US, I have not heard of VA Tech type incidents yet. Europeans are Nazis at heart, I know, I spent quite a bit of time there, a survey in Germany confirmed it, nearly one fourth of the population thought Hitler did accomplished some good things, scary.

Caribbeans schools are tailored for Americans wanting to work in the USA. The US has the most liberal policies with regards to foreign medical graduates than any country in the world. Canada is highly restricted, when they do allow foreign doctors, its usually US or Commonwealth educated physicians who have chance.

 

[JERI]

nearly one fourth of the population thought Hitler did accomplished some good things, scary.

That's alright I guess. I mean, the Chinese Shi Huangdi did some good things too, but we don't forget that they're some pretty ****ty human beings.

 

[JoeNamaMD]

Well no place on Earth is perfect, even Australia has its problems.

 

[treva]

To clarify, there aren't 'boards' for Australian med students, only your own university exams (as in end of semester) and then speciality college exams (during a training program or to get your fellowship etc). The only standardized 'licensing' exam are for international graduates- the AMC exam.

There, I've cut a third of your workload. That said, having played with taking the USMLE myself, you really have to consider the fact Australian medical schools aren't designed to prepare you for USMLE exams, they are designed to produce Australian interns, and the 'extra' (ie. different from your curriculum) study you have to do will be significant.



Just to clean up your terms a little, RMO stands for Resident Medical Officer, not Royal, and the pay is around AU$50k base for your first year. Overtime is dependant on your unit, so I wouldn't necessarily bet on it, but it can significantly increase your pay.

Also 'residency' in Australia refers to time when you're NOT in a training program (ie. when you're a RMO), though it isn't used in that tense commonly- (eg. I was a resident at X Hosp. rather than I did my residency at X Hosp.)- though terms are often state things so Queensland (I think you're at?) may say residency.

I'm about to start med school at Flinders in Feb. My plan was to stay and do an internship in Aus, and then most likely enter an specialty training program once I get my PR. I'm thinking of doing IM, Psych, or Emerg.

I've been hearing latley though that the spots for internship open to IMGs (I'm a Canadian citizen) are beginning to decrease due to the increase in medical school spots for Aussie students. Do you think this will negatively effect me as a medical graduate 4 years from now?

If worst comes to worst I know I'll probably be able to get an internship anywhere in rural Australia, but my wife and I will probably want to stay in an urban setting.

 

[johnnyb255]

I've been hearing latley though that the spots for internship open to IMGs (I'm a Canadian citizen) are beginning to decrease due to the increase in medical school spots for Aussie students. Do you think this will negatively effect me as a medical graduate 4 years from now?

I always understood IMG/OTD to be non-Australian trained, I'd call you an international student. Regardless, you'd 'rank' lower than domestic students from the same state and other states, and you're right there is going to be an influx (wall/tsunami) of graduating students in the next 4 years, but I think the general goal is to create enough intern spots to cover the state's med school output. I know in Victoria there are looking at Intern positions and the possibility of private hospitals having them- in any case people in high places know it's going to be an issue.

SA always has troubles retaining their Interns anyway, and since there aren't any new med schools there, I'm not sure how much of a problem it would be for you. http://www.health.sa.gov.au/MEDICALOFFICER/Default.aspx?tabid=188 would be a good site to visit.

Australia actually has a fairly high crime rate, it used to be a penal colony, the place I where I lived was robbed once.

Dude... there used to be penal colonies like two hundred years ago.

 

[JoeNamaMD]

Canadians are in a different situation compared to American students, for that reason I think Australian schools are better for Canadians wishing to return to Canada. Caribbean schools are better for US students than Australian schools because only two years are spent overseas, and the remainder is in the US for clinicals, for US grads IMG is an IMG, but this is different for Canadians.

 

[treva]

... for US grads IMG is an IMG, but this is different for Canadians.

Can you elaborate?

 

[JoeNamaMD]

All American students who went overseas for medical school are IMGs, and regardless of where you went to school, Caribbean, Asia, Europe, Australia, etc. you are all lumped together. Graduates of US medical schools will get preferential treatment over you.

 

[treva]

All American students who went overseas for medical school are IMGs, and regardless of where you went to school, Caribbean, Asia, Europe, Australia, etc. you are all lumped together. Graduates of US medical schools will get preferential treatment over you.

Sorry, I should have specified I was Canadian. I'm more interested in the part about how not all Canadian IMGs are created equal

 

[JoeNamaMD]

Canada is extremely tough with regards to IMGs, and when they do allow an IMG to practice, they usually grant that privilege to a Commonwealth trained doctor. The only way you could return to Canada as a Saba grad is if you finished post graduate training in the United States, this is going to be difficult if you don't have US citizenship, especially in this post 9-11 period.

If you completed post graduate training in Australia, that could go back to Canada, but mind you its a long road back.

 

[redshifteffect]

I think that a lot of people plan on returning to Canada once they are finished medical school, but reality is a little different.

If you have loans to pay, or need some time to write your MCCEE exams, or want to improve you resume before applying through CARMS you have little choice but to get a job - if you have gone to the Caribbean the US would be your only option.

Take a look at the match stats for CaRMS they are brutal even for Family medicine and near impossible for almost anything else. According to a recruiter I've been speaking to, 2 years in Oz with 5 pre-reqs is good enough to be recognised as a GP in most provinces (Ontario, BC excluded of course). Makes a big difference as doing those 2 years in Oz is easy, can't say the same if you have a caribbean degree.

 

[redshifteffect]

Canada is extremely tough with regards to IMGs, and when they do allow an IMG to practice, they usually grant that privilege to a Commonwealth trained doctor. The only way you could return to Canada as a Saba grad is if you finished post graduate training in the United States, this is going to be difficult if you don't have US citizenship, especially in this post 9-11 period.

If you completed post graduate training in Australia, that could go back to Canada, but mind you its a long road back.

There are certain caveats to this as well. The training program in the US has to be of equal length to the Canadian program to be recognised as equilvalent, and not all American programs fall in this category. All of the Australian programs are the same or greater length as their Canadian equivalents. So you have to be very careful which residency you choose to do in the US.

As for the post grad route being long, that is true, but at least you will get a job in Canada at the end of it; could be worse you could be sitting at home with a $300 000 degree working at McDonalds.

 

[redshifteffect]

A few misconceptions here:

1. There is no requirement to be an RMO for any number of years; case in point an international student from Malaysia who does not have a PR and was an intern this year (who I know personally) got into internal medicine (Basic Physician Training) at the Royal Melbourne Hospital next year. She had no PR, and did not complete an RMO year.

2. For GP training and a few other programs doing one year as an RMO is compulsory but is counted as part of your training.

3. Being an RMO for many Aussies allows them the opportunity to train in areas they have an interest but are not sure if they would like to practice in; as well as pad their resumes. Remember the average age of most graduates (especially in the undergrad curriculum) is less than 25, and so they have a few years to see what they like.

 

[johnnyb255]

A few misconceptions here:

1. There is no requirement to be an RMO for any number of years; case in point an international student from Malaysia who does not have a PR and was an intern this year (who I know personally) got into internal medicine (Basic Physician Training) at the Royal Melbourne Hospital next year. She had no PR, and did not complete an RMO year.

2. For GP training and a few other programs doing one year as an RMO is compulsory but is counted as part of your training.

3. Being an RMO for many Aussies allows them the opportunity to train in areas they have an interest but are not sure if they would like to practice in; as well as pad their resumes. Remember the average age of most graduates (especially in the undergrad curriculum) is less than 25, and so they have a few years to see what they like.

I haven't got figures, but I'd say most docs will do at least one RMO year before starting a training program, if not simply to bulk up their application with some more experience. Some programs require it (surgical, opthal), some don't (psych, physicians, O&G), but since I've only met a handful of PGY2 registrars/trainees compared with many PGY2 HMOs I'm going to go with personal experience here.

 

[redshifteffect]

I haven't got figures, but I'd say most docs will do at least one RMO year before starting a training program, if not simply to bulk up their application with some more experience. Some programs require it (surgical, opthal), some don't (psych, physicians, O&G), but since I've only met a handful of PGY2 registrars/trainees compared with many PGY2 HMOs I'm going to go with personal experience here.

Well anecdotal evidence is just that; anecdotal - I'm sure we all know scores of people that can prove our points. I was just trying to say that PGY 2 RMO years are not a requirement for all jobs, and depending on the situation you're in, the competition etc. you can manage to get into a lot of programs without completing an RMO year. I'm not saying you should not do an RMO year/or that you should do one, I'm only stating some facts.

The programs that I'm aware of that do not require a RMO year are (and there may be more):

OandG
Psych
Internal Med
Pathology

GP - requires an RMO year but is part of the three year program.

 

[johnnyb255]

Well anecdotal evidence is just that; anecdotal - I'm sure we all know scores of people that can prove our points. I was just trying to say that PGY 2 RMO years are not a requirement for all jobs, and depending on the situation you're in, the competition etc. you can manage to get into a lot of programs without completing an RMO year. I'm not saying you should not do an RMO year/or that you should do one, I'm only stating some facts.

The programs that I'm aware of that do not require a RMO year are (and there may be more):

OandG
Psych
Internal Med
Pathology

GP - requires an RMO year but is part of the three year program.

Emergency Medicine could be added to your list as well. I've been told (from one who knows) that the RANZCP does strongly prefer applicants to have done a psych rotation in Intern year if they are applying for PGY2, probably so you know what you're getting yourself into.

RANZCOG website says PGY2 is required before entering. This might have changed though, pretty sure I heard of someone becoming an O&G reg in PGY2.

I do see what you're getting at though, PGY2 is not necessarily a RMO year for some specialities, but at the same time it should be noted that all surgical applications are after PGY2, along with radiology, dermatology, ophthalmology and anaesthetics.

 

[jon stewart]

Yes all 3 countries. I'll be very busy.

Sometimes, I think a lot of people have an unhealthy obsession with America like it's the promised land. But the fact is, the USA has a lot of social problems. Walking downtown in many American cities is like going into a huge gang fight. Crime + violence + scary people all around. In Baltimore, Altanta, Washington D.C, doctors have to be accompanied to the parking lot by security guards because it's too dangerous to walk across the street from the hospital to the park lot to get their car. They actually had to build a skybridge for that in Georgetown Hospital because it was getting too dangerous. There are dozens of armed guards with guns in and out of the hospital, like a scene from some movie but it's real life.

If you look at quality of life and the best cities to live, Canada and Australia usually come out the winners...Toronto, Vancouver, Calgary, Brisbane, Melbourne, Sydney, Adelaide are all ranked very highly in the "Best cities to live in the world."

I love the USA for personal reasons but let's face it...it might be a superpower but it's not the best country to live in by a stretch.

Are you from the sydney area?

You bring up a good point, but those are select locations in the US that are more dangerous. The same can be said about any country. If i recall correctly you said you lived in the US for a bit? Im sure you found areas that were just as a safe.

I also agree with superpower point. I have lived in Aus for over a decade and am now in the US. The best place to live will vary for everyone, and some ranking from some organization doesn't mean jack until you go someplace and see if you like it for yourself. There are personal preferences of varying importance for everyone.

Though my main concern now is the poor performance of the US dollar.....and the high value of the AUS dollar. Looks like i picked the wrong time to move.....

 

[JoeNamaMD]

Canadians have a much harder time than Americans in returning to practice in their home countries. The match rate for IMGs in Canada hovers at a very small percent, while IMGs have better chances in the US system but still IMGs have to work harder than those who studied at local medical schools.

Schools like Saba and SGU are tailored for Americans wanting to go home to practice medicine, that is why those schools have their clinicals in the USA.

 

[punjboy]

heya everyone .
well i am confused which school i want to choose i am doing my BS in Biology in USA and later on want to do my MD i have the options for Poland and Carib but i was wondering is Australia is a better option. I am a american citizen , and well would return to USA so is it better for me to go to a Oz school rather than a Carib or Polish ?

thanks