Rotation with negative experience

[Gypsy0004]

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[SpoiledMilk]

Tell your friend I am sorry she has to be in this situation. I've had experiences in two clerkships where the attendings' final evaluations were not reflective of my efforts.

The only thing I can think to do is to try and contest the evaluation with her clerkship director. Bring up all the examples you've mentioned and see if they director can override the evaluation. Warning though, it probably won't be changed as I also contested both my situations to no avail.

As hard as it is, tell her to move forward as best she can. It can be addressed in her PS during ERAs or in the interviews if it is even brought up at all. Medical students are in tenuous positions in clerkships and are at the mercy of their final evaluators good or bad graces...

 

[Dral]

Sorry this happened. I received what I felt was an unfair grade from a preceptor during a rotation in med school also (not failing, but damn close). It was right after I found out I didn't match as well. Luckily I overcame it and scrambled into a position in the field I was trying for.

Was this an away rotation or is this institution considered part of the medical school where they are training? Did they talk to the dean's office about this?

 

[GoSpursGo]

So first of all I'm going to say something that should be really obvious--if anyone from the program reads this thread, they will immediately know which student you're talking about. Maybe it makes you and your friend feel good to "get back" at the program, but it's probably not going to make the preceptor or anyone at the program sympathetic towards changing the evaluation. I highly recommend anonymizing this post better.

Your friend is likely in a rough spot. They either need to convince the clerkship director to reassign the evaluation to a different preceptor, or override the evaluation which is going to be difficult to justify since it ultimately comes down to the student's word vs the attending. She can take it to her dean to see if there is anything they can do to help. But most of the time their hands are going to be tied unless another attending is willing to go to bat for the student.

Unfortunately, I suspect the biggest lesson here is that if you are not receiving feedback throughout your rotation directly from the person who is evaluating you, then you need to seek out that feedback. On a regular basis, throughout the rotation, and early enough that you'll have a chance to make changes if there are problems. A good attending should give you feedback as you go along, particularly if you're in danger of failing, but if you're not getting that feedback then you should protect yourself by prompting the attending to give you feedback.

 

[GoSpursGo]

Your friend should share these emails with her clerkship director and dean.

I still think it's a really bad idea to "name names." It definitely isn't going to help. But it's your friend whose neck is on the line, not mine.

 

[GoSpursGo]

Where the names I named?

Cedars-Sinai Health. There can't be many gyn onc preceptors who recently failed a student who is now trying to overturn the grade.

Again, it's your call. Just giving my advice.

 

[SpoiledMilk]

GoSpursGo is not being literal. What they mean is that your posts has intimate details that anyone from that particular program at Cedars-Sinai and your friends school will know its them you are referring to. Therefore, your post might result in unintended consequences to yourself or your friend (if they are to apply next cycle). Consider re-editing your original post to take out the identifiable parts.

 

[7331poas]

Your friend should share these emails with her clerkship director and dean.

I still think it's a really bad idea to "name names." It definitely isn't going to help. But it's your friend whose neck is on the line, not mine.

I have the opposite opinion. Students have zero recourse against ****ty attendings/admins. This is the only option they have.

 

[GoSpursGo]

I have the opposite opinion. Students have zero recourse against ****ty attendings/admins. This is the only option they have.

That's fine, I would still probably at least wait for the entire appeal process to play out.

 

[Lost in Translation]

She has been in series of meetings with SPC of our school and they also adding on her and reflecting that she has the weaknesses and that she is the reason of her failure !! Of course no one will accuse a faculty of falsifying evaluation! Always it will be the fault of this student !!

So both the rotation and her home institution say she has deficiencies…?

If your home institution is saying so, then chances are they do exist because the last thing a med school wants to do is fail a student or have a student look bad because it reflects on them…

 

[mrbreakfast]

I am similarly confused about this situation, as it appears - as best as I can tell - multiple faculty members at two different institutions are saying your friend is deficient, and it is somehow implausible that this actually could be true...?

Regardless of this, I will add:

1)

If your home institution is saying so, then chances are they do exist because the last thing a med school wants to do is fail a student or have a student look bad because it reflects on them…

I agree with this. I've seen multiple instances of bad students "propped up" by their home institutions, only for their weaknesses to be "suddenly discovered" when the student gets crucified at another institution. This can be unfortunately common at lower-tier programs, I've also seen, where it seems physical attendance on a rotation is sufficient to earn a passing grade. Back before COVID we would get fourth year away rotators who would certainly have not passed M3 year at our program.

2) From the other end of the table, it can sometimes be tough for residents to give honest feedback to medical students, as it's hard to tell someone to their face "you suck at this." Furthermore, residents and attendings may give feedback on different metrics; an overwhelmed resident may appreciate a med student who is quick to "check numbers" in the mornings yet gives rambling, disorganized presentations the attending has to constantly correct, which gives the residents (who aren't listening to the presentation) themselves more time to accomplish tasks during rounds.

3) I'm not sure if the whole "the OBGYN residents were really nice to my face but said horrible things about me behind my back" is still a thing, but it seemed to be a common complaint, both at my med school and on SDN, when I was a med student.

 

[Dr G Oogle]

I am similarly confused about this situation, as it appears - as best as I can tell - multiple faculty members at two different institutions are saying your friend is deficient, and it is somehow implausible that this actually could be true...?

Regardless of this, I will add:

1)

I agree with this. I've seen multiple instances of bad students "propped up" by their home institutions, only for their weaknesses to be "suddenly discovered" when the student gets crucified at another institution. This can be unfortunately common at lower-tier programs, I've also seen, where it seems physical attendance on a rotation is sufficient to earn a passing grade. Back before COVID we would get fourth year away rotators who would certainly have not passed M3 year at our program.

2) From the other end of the table, it can sometimes be tough for residents to give honest feedback to medical students, as it's hard to tell someone to their face "you suck at this." Furthermore, residents and attendings may give feedback on different metrics; an overwhelmed resident may appreciate a med student who is quick to "check numbers" in the mornings yet gives rambling, disorganized presentations the attending has to constantly correct, which gives the residents (who aren't listening to the presentation) themselves more time to accomplish tasks during rounds.

3) I'm not sure if the whole "the OBGYN residents were really nice to my face but said horrible things about me behind my back" is still a thing, but it seemed to be a common complaint, both at my med school and on SDN, when I was a med student.

Re #3: this is still a thing

 

[Browns99]

Everyone is rushing to take the OP's statement as being true.....Something is not right here.

 

[Dral]

Everyone is rushing to take the OP's statement as true.....Something is not right here.

I think most of us agree with your sentiment. If we had a dime for every time we've seen a person who posts on SDN who obviously isn't a native English speaker who is obviously upset by 'mistreatment' of their friend by the medical system (Whether it's an eval, getting dismissed from residency, not matching, etc), we'd all be rich.

It's happened so much that I choose to try to give the OP the benefit of the doubt, realizing that we do not know, nor likely will ever know, the full story. We can unfortunately only give our best advice based on what we are told without extrapolation/assumptions on our part. Part of the role of SDN is to serve as a sounding board. Sometimes I feel the best help is to acknowledge that what happened to the person isn't great and that we feel sorry it happened.

 

[Tenk]

I am similarly confused about this situation, as it appears - as best as I can tell - multiple faculty members at two different institutions are saying your friend is deficient, and it is somehow implausible that this actually could be true...?

Regardless of this, I will add:

1)

I agree with this. I've seen multiple instances of bad students "propped up" by their home institutions, only for their weaknesses to be "suddenly discovered" when the student gets crucified at another institution. This can be unfortunately common at lower-tier programs, I've also seen, where it seems physical attendance on a rotation is sufficient to earn a passing grade. Back before COVID we would get fourth year away rotators who would certainly have not passed M3 year at our program.

2) From the other end of the table, it can sometimes be tough for residents to give honest feedback to medical students, as it's hard to tell someone to their face "you suck at this." Furthermore, residents and attendings may give feedback on different metrics; an overwhelmed resident may appreciate a med student who is quick to "check numbers" in the mornings yet gives rambling, disorganized presentations the attending has to constantly correct, which gives the residents (who aren't listening to the presentation) themselves more time to accomplish tasks during rounds.

3) I'm not sure if the whole "the OBGYN residents were really nice to my face but said horrible things about me behind my back" is still a thing, but it seemed to be a common complaint, both at my med school and on SDN, when I was a med student.

#3 is as true as ortho residents who lift, neuro residents who carry a reflex hammer, general surgery residents who don’t sleep, IM residents who take a 30 minute history, EM residents who take a 30 second history, and peds residents who are just really, really nice people. There are many more, but these pillars are what hold up the foundations of medicine.

 

[PainRehabMD]

#3 is as true as ortho residents who lift, neuro residents who carry a reflex hammer, general surgery residents who don’t sleep, IM residents who take a 30 minute history, EM residents who take a 30 second history, and peds residents who are just really, really nice people. There are many more, but these pillars are what hold up the foundations of medicine.

So it's true then.