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Residency Shortage Question
- Thread starter j0ez0r
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That's a good question and I don't have an answer. I don't see how it can feasibly be done.
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More residency spots will be created, but that takes time. The only ways to create spots quickly is to make new, borderline training programs, not reduce/close down the current subpar programs, or to add more entry level spots at the current high quality, high surgical volume programs... which then tends to overextends them (waters their level of training and surgical cases per resident down).
Not allowing the creation of a good, integrated school like Western is not the solution. That is exactly the direction we need to be moving. All of the recently opened schools (DMU, Barry, AZ) are doing well. IMO, the best solution would be for each of the pod schools, esp the ones that have huge incoming classes and low board pass rates, to accept and graduate fewer students until more high quality residencies can be created. However, that won't happen since tuition $ is a big driving force.
As a student, there is not a whole lot you can do (without ruffling a whole lot of admin feathers), so just focus on the things you can control: get the best grades you can, learn the concepts, pass boards, and work hard on clerkships. If you are at least a decent student and apply and interview broadly, you should have no problem getting good training... things will fall into place.
Not allowing the creation of a good, integrated school like Western is not the solution. That is exactly the direction we need to be moving. All of the recently opened schools (DMU, Barry, AZ) are doing well. IMO, the best solution would be for each of the pod schools, esp the ones that have huge incoming classes and low board pass rates, to accept and graduate fewer students until more high quality residencies can be created. However, that won't happen since tuition $ is a big driving force.
As a student, there is not a whole lot you can do (without ruffling a whole lot of admin feathers), so just focus on the things you can control: get the best grades you can, learn the concepts, pass boards, and work hard on clerkships. If you are at least a decent student and apply and interview broadly, you should have no problem getting good training... things will fall into place.
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I agree with that. I can see alot of newer programs opening up in the next 5-10 especially since we are graduating alot more better trained surgeons than in previous years. The best advise for any student entering clerkships is just to continue working hard and treat this as a full time job. You are here to learn and apply what you learn appropriately. As far as landing a residency goes, the best training in my opinion is contingent on two factors:
1) the opportunities available by the residency program - i.e. cases, volume, call, rotations, etc.
2) your perogative to work hard, read literature, and apply what you learn.
So the point I am making is that one may not need to land one of the big well-known "high powered" programs to get quality training. Your personal initiative will take you a long way in my opinion. In fact, I am also curious to see the number of new foot and ankle fellowships opening up for DPMs in the near future (orthopedic and podiatric) as more and more residents might opt for these to further focus their training in specific areas (i.e. charcot reconstructions, sports medicine, trauma, limb-salvage, etc.)
I agree with Feli's statement regarding the control that we have as students because we still have a plethora of opportunities ahead of us to get solid training.
W
whiskers
Instead of having 3 podiatry residents and 2 students scrub in each program could have 4 podiatry residents and 3 students scrub in and then allow 2 additional podiatry residents to watch while not being scrubbed in pimping the 4 extra students lingering around in the OR.
Other that that I have no idea.
Other that that I have no idea.
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Sad but true at some programs^^
There are a finite number of programs which have a high number of true "C" cases per resident. There are numerous other ones which probably don't even get the minimum if they logged appropriately. Avoid those. While some people learn surgery quickly and others may never learn, more is still better.
I think this is why pod has to be very careful about watering down good programs. It's a tempting option so that "everybody gets a residency," but when you take a high quality program that accepts 2 or 3 per year and expand it to 5/yr without adding any more attendings and cases, it's no longer high quality IMO.
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We just had the APMA dinner at our school and they informed us that there WILL NOT be a shortage in 2010. I can't speak for other years but that is what they told us. So, dont' freak out, just work hard now so you don't have to worry about it later.
i know this will sound arrogant, but I wouldnt worry too much about the residency shortage. If you put in the work and do well on boards and are not a *****, you will not have a problem getting a residency. Think of it as another way to weed out people who barely pass classes. When I was interviewing, I didnt pay much attention to board pass rates at schools because I know I am smart and will put in the work and could pass and do well at any school. I think schools with lower pass rates mainly means they let in more questionable people who probably should not be there in the first place. This is more of a comment, not a solution, and I did learn something from Feli's comment since he is much closer to the situation.
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The issue is that there is no way to predict how many people will graduate each year. If they take too few students, too many residencies will go unfilled and are in danger of losing their status. The MD/DO world has the same problem. The difference is that if an MD/DO doesn't match in what they want, they can scramble to something else or do a transitional year. We don't have another specialty to scramble to and don't have transitional years.
I propose that we create 25-50 or so of the old one year Rotating Podiatric Residencies (RPR-12). These could be done at some of the smaller hospitals that were closed down during the residency transition because they didn't have the numbers for PM&S's. These would give the few DPM's that didn't successfully land a program (depending on the year) a paycheck, some extra experience and training, and a "resident status" meaning they could continue to defer loans. They could then re-enter the match the following year. This would be similar to the MD/DO transitional year.
Any ideas?
I propose that we create 25-50 or so of the old one year Rotating Podiatric Residencies (RPR-12). These could be done at some of the smaller hospitals that were closed down during the residency transition because they didn't have the numbers for PM&S's. These would give the few DPM's that didn't successfully land a program (depending on the year) a paycheck, some extra experience and training, and a "resident status" meaning they could continue to defer loans. They could then re-enter the match the following year. This would be similar to the MD/DO transitional year.
Any ideas?
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+1. I couldnt agree more.
I dont know the economics or the politics perhaps of the residency world yet but what jonwill said above about the "RPR-12" sounds good to me as a temporary measure to say the least. The only question i have in that situation is that if the student failed to match in the previous year what would they have changed that they would match in the upcoming year? Theoretically their interview/extern impression would not have changed and there is no option to improve grades at that point so what would make them more competitive/desired? Wouldnt they still be "bottom of the barell" for the next years match!?!?! Again I am not well versed on the match process so bare with me.
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The biggest change would be that the new doc would gain an entire year of medical and surgical experience. Some of the time would be spent on podiatric surgery while other months could be spent on other medical/surgical rotations. There is a lot to be said for experience. At most programs, there is a huge difference between 1st and 2nd year residents.
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hmm. NO shortage sounds good, but I was informed that getting into residency will be "tight" for class 2010.
I want to see how "tight" it'll be.
Hopefully, there will be enough spots for those competent students.
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Think of it like this: What to a lot of allopathic students do after getting rejected the first time around when applying to medical school? They work. In most cases they do not take additional classes to raise their GPA (a lost cause with that many credits, a few classes wont make a dent in your cumulative), they don't retake the MCAT...they just work. They gain valuable life experience (often times clinical) that proves to a med school that they are willing to work hard to get their degree. This sounds like the same thing to me. You gain a year of experience in this temporary residency and if you work hard and do a good job, you have LOR's from attendings that would most likely do more for your application than a few points higher on either your GPA, interviews, boards, etc.
residency shortage has been an issue off and on for years...the inherent problem is that you have the schools looking out for themselves and not the profession.
the worst thing in the world was to add an additional school. THE WORST! in the real world podiatrist, orthopods, plastic surgeons, vascular surgeons and some dermatologists compete for some of the same patients...just because we do our job well doesnt mean we get the business. there are WAY too many podiatrists out there and any statistic to the contrary is trumped up marketing scheme by schools looking to make more money.
the number of students should go down...the number of schools should be cut and residency positions should be added based on market conditions.
i know its way too much to ask for all of this to happen but podiatry can be an ugly world if you're not careful.
the worst thing in the world was to add an additional school. THE WORST! in the real world podiatrist, orthopods, plastic surgeons, vascular surgeons and some dermatologists compete for some of the same patients...just because we do our job well doesnt mean we get the business. there are WAY too many podiatrists out there and any statistic to the contrary is trumped up marketing scheme by schools looking to make more money.
the number of students should go down...the number of schools should be cut and residency positions should be added based on market conditions.
i know its way too much to ask for all of this to happen but podiatry can be an ugly world if you're not careful.
also...all this rpr12 garbage has got to go...we are a laughing stock to other professionals bc we have no consistent standard..if we do not have enough residencies to get everyone board certified and a 3 year residency then we should scale back student numbers...we as a profession have no consistent identity..some say we're surgeons but some yokels out there just want to bust toenails for a living...all residencies should be 3 yrs of surgery. period. and we should monitor that to meet needs of the profession
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you're not really a prepod right?
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Just wondering. To someone taking your advice I think it would matter. If youre a practicing podiatrist you would know a lot more about the field than a prepod and thus be considered much more credible.
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What??? RPR's and one year residencies have been gone for a while. There is a consistent standard. The standard is the PM&S residency.
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Excuse my naive nature and please feel free to correct me if I am wrong but..there are 8 podiatry schools in the United States, correct?
Each school has, let's assume more or less, 50 affiliated hospitals for externships/rotations, correct?
Each of those 60 hospitals has let's say 5 openings for a podiatric resident?
That's 300 openings correct?
I am going by approximations, but I believe the number is higher. So wouldn't any one student at their respective podiatry school have a good chance of attaining residency somewhere or another?
Each school has, let's assume more or less, 50 affiliated hospitals for externships/rotations, correct?
Each of those 60 hospitals has let's say 5 openings for a podiatric resident?
That's 300 openings correct?
I am going by approximations, but I believe the number is higher. So wouldn't any one student at their respective podiatry school have a good chance of attaining residency somewhere or another?
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First, there are 9 pod schools this year. Western is the new one.
Second, residencies are not all that large. The way you are making it sound is that each pod residency will take 5 students EACH year. Some PM & S residencies take 1 or 2 students a year. Others may take 3 students. I believe there are very few residencies that take 4 or 5 DPM's.
You have to look at the numbers of students graduating from pod schools overall. Since Azpod starting graduating students, you have to add in those students to the match. Western just started up and in a few years those students will be added in as well (50 students projected). Residencies are not being started up at the same pace as schools opening.
Not sure about solutions to the problem but some individuals say they will increase the size of existing residencies (ie accepting 4 DPM's a year instead of 3). I am not positive of how much a great idea this is - peoples surgical numbers will be diluted in addition to double scrubbing on cases, etc. Seems more of a quick fix than anything.
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I agree with what you said, I just wanted to add that I think that most residencies really only accept 1-2 students each year. (from each class year - so if its a 3 year program thats 3-6 students TOTAL).To me the norm seems like 1 or 2 spots. Everyone feel free to check on CASPR, but that was my impression.
Also, msa - what do you mean by each school has 50 affiliated hospitals? If that is the case I wasn't aware.
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I agree totally.
It's easy to say "well too bad for those guys who don't get a residency, but they were bad students anyways." However, those lesser trained colleagues still hold your same degree and affect everyone when it becomes time to change laws and hospital policy.
As much as ACFAS was given flack for "divisiveness" on the APMA issue, I still tend to think the organization has many of the best minds in our profession and a very good idea of what is going on. In addition to the obvious issues some of their members were having with local APMA, I wouldn't be at all suprised if their secondary goal was, as well trained surgeons, to dissociate themselves from the lesser trained pods. They tried suggesting that it's much easier to accomplish goals when everyone is on the same page in terms of training...
http://www.acfas.org/NR/rdonlyres/59F3D09B-9EE5-4C17-B506-667D5069837F/0/PositionStmt_ResidencyRequirements.pdf
With the increasing number of good residency hospitals, podiatry was really turning the corner and nearing a point where every grad would get solid residency. However, with new schools opening and older, lower quality schools accepting huge classes, a potential residency shortage is definitely a concern. Whether it ends up being an actual shortage of entry level spots or just a shortage of spots with quality numbers remains to be seen. Still, I would imagine there will continue to be a fairly big training discrepancy among DPMs for the foreseeable future. Not all residencies are good residencies... esp when many new spots are being created/expanced in a hurry.
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Or not even "older, lower quality schools accepting huge classes". How about "smaller" ~60 student schools accepting the bottom of the barrel students. ie- autoreply when a student applies to podiatry school. It is really embarrassing to apply to podiatry school and get a interview invite back in the next ~6hours or so. What is that saying about the profession?
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I hate to say it, but you talk about it all the time. Barry accepts the least competitive, worst class out of EVERY school in the nation. If ANY school aught to be penalized it is Barry. There are NO excuses. It is very embarrassing for the entire profession. They still accept tests other than the MCAT, they have no standards, no morals, etc. Just because they don't have 40 more kids (because they don't need the extra money - the university takes care of them as a redhead stepchild) is no excuse.
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It's funny how you hate it so much when people bash your school, and then you turn around and bash other people's schools.
I do agree with you that Barry accepts a lot of subpar students as compared DMU and azpod.
I interviewed at OCPM, and I know a lot of people who interviewed there also. Here is the truth about OCPM and their so called "min. of 20" MCAT: IT'S ALL A LIE.
I know a lot of people who got in with below 20 last year. LOL I even know people who got in w/o taking the MCAT. (GRE and DAT)
Its a joke really.
Barry is not that great academically as compared to DMU. But I highly doubt OCPM is anything comparable to DMU either. Clinically, Barry is supposed to be a lot better than OCPM.
IMO, I dont see anything positive about OCPM. Weak clinically, and not so strong academically.
I guess the only good thing is the new building..... and Lebron James.
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well if you want to bash, lets bash. i try to downplay it but enough is enough. if anyone else was saying it allright. but someone form BARRY? holy S***It's funny how you hate it so much when people bash your school, and then you turn around and bash other people's schools.
I do agree with you that Barry accepts a lot of subpar students as compared DMU and azpod.
I interviewed at OCPM, and I know a lot of people who interviewed there also. Here is the truth about OCPM and their so called "min. of 20" MCAT: IT'S ALL A LIE.
I know a lot of people who got in with below 20 last year. LOL I even know people who got in w/o taking the MCAT. (GRE and DAT)
Its a joke really.
Barry is not that great academically as compared to DMU. But I highly doubt OCPM is anything comparable to DMU either. Clinically, Barry is supposed to be a lot better than OCPM.
IMO, I dont see anything positive about OCPM. Weak clinically, and not so strong academically.
I guess the only good thing is the new building..... and Lebron James.
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It's funny how you hate it so much when people bash your school, and then you turn around and bash other people's schools.
I do agree with you that Barry accepts a lot of subpar students as compared DMU and azpod.
I interviewed at OCPM, and I know a lot of people who interviewed there also. Here is the truth about OCPM and their so called "min. of 20" MCAT: IT'S ALL A LIE.
I know a lot of people who got in with below 20 last year. LOL I even know people who got in w/o taking the MCAT. (GRE and DAT)
Its a joke really.
Barry is not that great academically as compared to DMU. But I highly doubt OCPM is anything comparable to DMU either. Clinically, Barry is supposed to be a lot better than OCPM.
IMO, I dont see anything positive about OCPM. Weak clinically, and not so strong academically.
I guess the only good thing is the new building..... and Lebron James.
also say what you want about anyone else there, i don't care. i got a 24 and i know quite a few people who did just as well or better. you think scholl is so great just because sdn says so, I don't think so. why can people form ocpm transfer there without retaking any classes? hmmm. thats odd.
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It's funny how you hate it so much when people bash your school, and then you turn around and bash other people's schools.
I do agree with you that Barry accepts a lot of subpar students as compared DMU and azpod.
I interviewed at OCPM, and I know a lot of people who interviewed there also. Here is the truth about OCPM and their so called "min. of 20" MCAT: IT'S ALL A LIE.
I know a lot of people who got in with below 20 last year. LOL I even know people who got in w/o taking the MCAT. (GRE and DAT)
Its a joke really.
Barry is not that great academically as compared to DMU. But I highly doubt OCPM is anything comparable to DMU either. Clinically, Barry is supposed to be a lot better than OCPM.
IMO, I dont see anything positive about OCPM. Weak clinically, and not so strong academically.
I guess the only good thing is the new building..... and Lebron James.
And do you really think AZPOD is that good? just a bunch of SDN bullcrap as well. read up on the interview feedback. They aren't very selective, half the people failout and its just a crappy stepchild program to all the real money makers ie- dentistry, DO school and now optometry. you people here are such sheeple its sickening.
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How recently did you interview as well? last year? didn't think so. Just curious where do you get your expert opinion on clinical assessment. You're a joke.It's funny how you hate it so much when people bash your school, and then you turn around and bash other people's schools.
I do agree with you that Barry accepts a lot of subpar students as compared DMU and azpod.
I interviewed at OCPM, and I know a lot of people who interviewed there also. Here is the truth about OCPM and their so called "min. of 20" MCAT: IT'S ALL A LIE.
I know a lot of people who got in with below 20 last year. LOL I even know people who got in w/o taking the MCAT. (GRE and DAT)
Its a joke really.
Barry is not that great academically as compared to DMU. But I highly doubt OCPM is anything comparable to DMU either. Clinically, Barry is supposed to be a lot better than OCPM.
IMO, I dont see anything positive about OCPM. Weak clinically, and not so strong academically.
I guess the only good thing is the new building..... and Lebron James.
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When you start to put other people down, or other schools down you make yourself look like a fool. Please PM each other if you need to engage in this activity. Nobody cares to read it, or see it posted on a public forum like this. It looks bad for us as a whole regardless of the school you go to when people engage in this type of activity. Remember although there are some great opinions and some engaging topics brought up on this site, it only represents a very small percentage of mostly pre-podiatry students that read these posts. So please for every one else who reads this site keep it private if you feel like you need to bash another school.
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Actually I did interview last year. I know some of the 1st year students that post here as well. I wont give out any names.
As for scholl being a good school academically.....apparently they are doing something right. If not, then how come their 1st time pass rate is always consistent? 89% +
Not to mention, Azpod has a 100% passing rate? Am I right?
My expert opinion? lol
I asked 3 yrs and 4 yrs at OCPM through facebook and emails.
One of the things I can never forget was a 4th year telling me that the patient to student ratio was poor (too many students per patient).
You got a 24? wow congrats
I know some people over here with 26s..so what?
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26 is better than a 24. Am I right? lol
I was just trying to point out that not everyone goes to Barry has a low MCAT score.
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until there are more than 800 people in the entire country who apply to podiatry school, every college will have students with low 20s. mute point.
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a moot point is something that is already settled and not worth discussing anymore. hamlinbeach wants everyone to press the mute button concerning the point because it can't be settled and is annoying to read!
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im glad you can do a google search... i used the US definition from the first hit, you used the third hit! but i still think people should push the mute button on 'which schools have the lowest MCAT scores'.
note: i dont really care i just wanted 69 posts. (balloons are falling from my ceiling and trumpets are playing a triumphant tune)
note: i dont really care i just wanted 69 posts. (balloons are falling from my ceiling and trumpets are playing a triumphant tune)
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why not! thats a good score! just because something is not a 30+ doesnt mean its not a good score LOL PLEASE
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why not! thats a good score! just because something is not a 30+ doesnt mean its not a good score LOL PLEASE
God stop talking
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you are such an idiot...see everyone can be a jerk!
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From what I recall, anything less than a 25 on the MCAT is below the 50th percentile so yes, most scores in the lower to mid twenties are bad. A direct implication of this is that most podiatry students are not as academically successful as their allopathic counterparts. Many of the podiatry students are on par with academics with respect to the DOs. There is a reason most of them are in primary care and its not because thats what many of them aspired to become. If you want to see good scores of the better students applying to professional schools you will want to look in the top quartile of all examinees. For the MCAT this typically starts at about 29-30 after the induction of CBT. Success is in the eye of the beholder. A good score is a 30 or better. That said, undergraduate success does not seal your fate, it does however predict the likelihood of academic success in graduate study.
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true that
its funny how a 25 now is at or below average, but 10, 15 years ago, this was a score to shoot for for a lot of MD programs (save ivys, georgetown etc). because these, now practicing MDs, only got a 25 on their MCAT and a 3.5 uGPA, doesnt really matter...its how they did in medical school. All this MCAT stuff gets to be a little ridiculous... the students 10years ago with 'only' 3.5s and 25 were worthy enough to gain admission to MD school, excell, study, and land great residencies...and they are in no way held in less esteem than their newly graduating counterparts who had 3.9s and 40s in undergrad and did the same in medical school and are landing the same supercompetitive residencies.
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yea it changed in 1991, right about when i am talking about
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If you're going to school to see Lebron James, better apply to NYCPM...he'll be in New York for the 2010 season
