Residency Matching in the States

[Transition]

Firstly, let's please keep this civil? I am trying to have a productive discussion here, so would love to hear others' views on the matter.
Anyway, I'm sure that some of you have looked into this, but since I've been getting some PMs about this, I thought I would post it.

http://www.nrmp.org/data/chartingoutcomes2009v3.pdf

It's a well-written article from the NRMP (National Residency Matching Program) that outlines the average USMLE scores, profiles, research experiences, etc. for US and independent grads for residency matching last year.

The numbers that are important to keep in mind are the number of applicants to spots and the average USMLE scores for the US grads vs number US grads. Given the Obama healthcare agenda (boost local training, decrease foreign doctor dependence), you can safely assume that a US grad with an x percentile USMLE will get picked over an independent with approximately the same score. Where it's a little iffy is what the cutoff would be for internationals to get in over a local grad, but I would personally not be confident with a score that wasn't at least 20 %ile points higher than the median US grad. Especially if you take into account the number of US grad applicants vs. the number of spots available (notice how there aren't many spots left over for independents) and if you look at similar reports from 2007 and 2008 (google is your friend), the trend seems to suggest a convergence to a 1:1 ratio in the future. What does this mean? That the number of spots open to independents is closing. Why is this not good? Well, it means that the average USMLE scores are going to need to be much higher to keep up with competition.

<personal opinion> Seriously, if you are thinking about going to Aus to train to go back to the US, think carefully. The Carib is likely your best bet as they will specifically train you to do well on the USMLE. Plus, you will do all of your core clinicals in the States. Programs like Ochsner make little sense. Reputation aside, there are few benefits to said program, at least so far as I can tell.

Basically, based on this data, as a non-US citizen, I have decided that I will concentrate on going back to Canada and/or stay in Australia. Adding studying for the USMLE on top of all that, coming from a non-USMLE oriented curric, well, it would be fool hardy. I guess more because I want a balance in my life as well instead of non-stop work.

Opinions?

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[JanikeyDoc]

The Caribbean is also a risky choice, most PDs will know you could not cut it when you apply for a residency from a Caribbean school. Your USMLE score will vouch for you even more. Also those schools are pretty much for profit enterprises. I think Australia is a great option if you cannot get into a school in North America, and frankly speaking, Australia's quality of life and living standards is as good if not better than North America. A lot of people are making the assumption that life in America is going to be just like it was in the last half of the 20th Century, you are going to be in for a rude awakening, the financial crisis is going to have far reaching effects on the plush standard of living Americans became accustomed to over the years. I hope that the US continues to prosper but its not inconceivable that the US could become Zimbabwe very soon.

 

[shan564]

Opinions?

Aus schools may not train you specifically for Step 1, but their curricula (and teaching) are generally much better than the Caribbean.

Here's the difference:
In Australia, they go to great lengths to personally teach you the basics and tell you to learn the rest on your own.
In the Carib, they put you in a lecture about all of the USMLE material.

I have 3 clinical tutors for my group of 5 students - and we are the only group that those tutors teach. Personal attention like that is unheard of in the Carib.
And that's not counting my PBL tutor, plus all of the different lecturers, plus the independent learning mentors, etc. etc.

At USyd, we have an unbelievable amount of spare time after we're done with everything. You can spend all that time studying for the USMLE, or you can spend none of it studying for the USMLE (which is what most people do).

Still, most people I know who took the USMLE got pretty good scores. That's because they studied instead of slacking off.

non-USMLE-oriented curriculum

It's true that Aussie schools don't prepare you as well for the USMLE - but that's just because we have fewer teaching hours in general. In the Carib, you'll spend more time in lectures - in Aus, you can just use that time to study on your own.

non-stop work

I wouldn't consider it "non-stop work." Here's how I did the math:
On an average day, I have no more than 3-4 hours of lectures/PBLs
Most people don't spend more than 1-2 hours a day studying on their own.
A few people spend more time studying because they're good students - those people know the USMLE material pretty well.
If you look at Pollux's experience, he said that he put in about 1000 hours of study for Step 1 - that's 1.5 hrs/day for 2 years.

So, if you go by his plan (which is not foolproof, but it worked spectacularly for him), you spend less than 8 hrs/day doing medicine-related work, and that's just on weekdays.

In other words, you can get away with 40 hrs/week and take the weekends off. I realize that some people may need to study more than that, but most people study a LOT less than that... and then they complain that the curriculum didn't train them properly for the USMLE.

the US could become Zimbabwe very soon

Come on, Zimbabwe? Maybe Iceland, at worst. But mass poverty, hyperinflation, military dictatorship, etc? Don't even compare the two - I can't even imagine what the poor Zimbabweans must go through on a daily basis... and that's despite the fact that I come from Pakistan, which isn't exactly the most stable country these days.

 

[shan564]

*sorry, accidentally put up the same post three times... deleted.

 

[shan564]

*sorry, accidentally put up the same post three times... deleted.

 

[JanikeyDoc]

Aus schools may not train you specifically for Step 1, but their curricula (and teaching) are generally much better than the Caribbean.

Here's the difference:
In Australia, they go to great lengths to personally teach you the basics and tell you to learn the rest on your own.
In the Carib, they put you in a lecture about all of the USMLE material.

I have 3 clinical tutors for my group of 5 students - and we are the only group that those tutors teach. Personal attention like that is unheard of in the Carib.
And that's not counting my PBL tutor, plus all of the different lecturers, plus the independent learning mentors, etc. etc.

At USyd, we have an unbelievable amount of spare time after we're done with everything. You can spend all that time studying for the USMLE, or you can spend none of it studying for the USMLE (which is what most people do).

Still, most people I know who took the USMLE got pretty good scores. That's because they studied instead of slacking off.

It's true that Aussie schools don't prepare you as well for the USMLE - but that's just because we have fewer teaching hours in general. In the Carib, you'll spend more time in lectures - in Aus, you can just use that time to study on your own.

I wouldn't consider it "non-stop work." Here's how I did the math:
On an average day, I have no more than 3-4 hours of lectures/PBLs
Most people don't spend more than 1-2 hours a day studying on their own.
A few people spend more time studying because they're good students - those people know the USMLE material pretty well.
If you look at Pollux's experience, he said that he put in about 1000 hours of study for Step 1 - that's 1.5 hrs/day for 2 years.

So, if you go by his plan (which is not foolproof, but it worked spectacularly for him), you spend less than 8 hrs/day doing medicine-related work, and that's just on weekdays.

In other words, you can get away with 40 hrs/week and take the weekends off. I realize that some people may need to study more than that, but most people study a LOT less than that... and then they complain that the curriculum didn't train them properly for the USMLE.


Come on, Zimbabwe? Maybe Iceland, at worst. But mass poverty, hyperinflation, military dictatorship, etc? Don't even compare the two - I can't even imagine what the poor Zimbabweans must go through on a daily basis... and that's despite the fact that I come from Pakistan, which isn't exactly the most stable country these days.

The US standard of living is inflated because the Dollar is the world reserve currency which allows the US government and people to live on limitless debt. One time the USA was a real producer of goods and a net creditor now it is the biggest debtor in history and relies on borrowing money from other countries, particularly oil producers in the Middle East and China. The US even borrows from Russia which exports oil to the US.

Military dictatorship in America? Yes it can happen there like anywhere else. America operates the way it does because of one thing, money, take that away and you will see what happens. Australia also can easily wind up a dictatorship especially since China, is becoming the most important factor in the Australian economy.

Anyway I thought you and Alphonsine hated America, so you should be happy living in Oz, recall your signature "Australia > USA". I guess you now came to the reality that you are foreigners in Australia and essentially have no rights? Especially when it comes to graduation time and you need that internship to get registration to work in Australia???

 

[Transition]

Aus schools may not train you specifically for Step 1, but their curricula (and teaching) are generally much better than the Caribbean.

Here's the difference:
In Australia, they go to great lengths to personally teach you the basics and tell you to learn the rest on your own.
In the Carib, they put you in a lecture about all of the USMLE material.

I have 3 clinical tutors for my group of 5 students - and we are the only group that those tutors teach. Personal attention like that is unheard of in the Carib.
And that's not counting my PBL tutor, plus all of the different lecturers, plus the independent learning mentors, etc. etc.

Right, so as a means to an end, Australia is highly dependent on what you plan to do. If you want to give yourself the best chance of doing well on the USMLE, then the Carib is your best option by far. If you want to be trained in a very hands-on, thought-conducive atmosphere, Aus is your best choice. I wanted the latter, but I'm also not planning on going to the US. If I were, I would also want to give myself the best chance of succeeding, which would be going to a school that minimizes the extra prep time outside of class required for maximal success on an exam that will all but decide my future.

At USyd, we have an unbelievable amount of spare time after we're done with everything. You can spend all that time studying for the USMLE, or you can spend none of it studying for the USMLE (which is what most people do).

Still, most people I know who took the USMLE got pretty good scores. That's because they studied instead of slacking off.

It's true that Aussie schools don't prepare you as well for the USMLE - but that's just because we have fewer teaching hours in general. In the Carib, you'll spend more time in lectures - in Aus, you can just use that time to study on your own.

But in the Carib, you can use the hours outside lectures to do other things!

If you're prepping for the USMLE, that's gonna be difficult in Aus. At the least, it'll be hanging over your head constantly for those 2 years.

I wouldn't consider it "non-stop work." Here's how I did the math:
On an average day, I have no more than 3-4 hours of lectures/PBLs
Most people don't spend more than 1-2 hours a day studying on their own.
A few people spend more time studying because they're good students - those people know the USMLE material pretty well.
If you look at Pollux's experience, he said that he put in about 1000 hours of study for Step 1 - that's 1.5 hrs/day for 2 years.

So, if you go by his plan (which is not foolproof, but it worked spectacularly for him), you spend less than 8 hrs/day doing medicine-related work, and that's just on weekdays.

That plan requires a lot of will power. Also, note that Pollux got a high 30 on his MCAT where the MCAT is very well correlated with success on the USMLE (thus the reason for using it as a primary motivator for admissions). I'm sure you'll be fine shan, but what about those attending UQ with low 20s? I almost find UQ's recruiting philosophy to be unethical in this regard (at least for recruiting Americans).

Come on, Zimbabwe? Maybe Iceland, at worst. But mass poverty, hyperinflation, military dictatorship, etc? Don't even compare the two - I can't even imagine what the poor Zimbabweans must go through on a daily basis... and that's despite the fact that I come from Pakistan, which isn't exactly the most stable country these days.

Yeah, Janikey... why are you continuing to post here? You're a ridiculous character with absolutely outlandish claims. Also, I'm getting dizzy from your flip flop between Aus is bad and Aus is great or US is bad and US is great. Sigh... make up your mind dude!

 

[shan564]

Right, so as a means to an end, Australia is highly dependent on what you plan to do. If you want to give yourself the best chance of doing well on the USMLE, then the Carib is your best option by far. If you want to be trained in a very hands-on, thought-conducive atmosphere, Aus is your best choice. I wanted the latter, but I'm also not planning on going to the US. If I were, I would also want to give myself the best chance of succeeding, which would be going to a school that minimizes the extra prep time outside of class required for maximal success on an exam that will all but decide my future.

I don't think it's quite so black and white. Yes, the Caribbean gives you USMLE-oriented lectures, but I don't learn anything in my lectures unless the lecturer is really amazing. The thought-conducive environment is much better for me because it makes me think about the pathophysiology, and then it's easier to go and learn.

But in the Carib, you can use the hours outside lectures to do other things!

If you're prepping for the USMLE, that's gonna be difficult in Aus. At the least, it'll be hanging over your head constantly for those 2 years.

The point is that in the Carib, you don't have as much time outside of lectures. I've only heard anecdotes, but I'm under the impression that they have 7-8 hours a day of coursework.

That plan requires a lot of will power.

You'd be surprised... once you start med school, it's hard not to get into it. All you really need is a study group and a schedule to keep you on track.

Also, note that Pollux got a high 30 on his MCAT where the MCAT is very well correlated with success on the USMLE (thus the reason for using it as a primary motivator for admissions). I'm sure you'll be fine shan, but what about those attending UQ with low 20s?

Even with his 38, you'd be expected to get 250ish on the USMLE according to the formula. His score was still amazing.

I almost find UQ's recruiting philosophy to be unethical in this regard (at least for recruiting Americans).

Agreed, except that I would have omitted the "almost" and used stronger words.


Transition - are you getting PR before you come here? If you don't have PR, it'll be hard to stay here. And the Canadian board exams are harder than the USMLE - that's why most Canadians here just plan on going to the US.

Anyway I thought you and Alphonsine hated America, so you should be happy living in Oz, recall your signature "Australia > USA". I guess you now came to the reality that you are foreigners in Australia and essentially have no rights? Especially when it comes to graduation time and you need that internship to get registration to work in Australia???

I feel like I shouldn't dignify this with a response, but it's so hard...

I never hated America, you just assumed that because I like Australia. We've actually had this discussion before. I've said countless times that America is a great place compared to most countries in the world. I grew up in America... it's home to me.

For some reason, you're under the impression that I "hate" America just because I think it's not perfect. You think everybody is like you - you either decide to "love" or "hate" everything, and then change your arguments depending on that. Unlike you, I'm capable of presenting a balanced viewpoint regardless of how I feel about a certain issue. That's why you may think that I "hate" America just because I'm capable of pointing out its shortcomings.

 

[Transition]

I don't think it's quite so black and white. Yes, the Caribbean gives you USMLE-oriented lectures, but I don't learn anything in my lectures unless the lecturer is really amazing. The thought-conducive environment is much better for me because it makes me think about the pathophysiology, and then it's easier to go and learn.



The point is that in the Carib, you don't have as much time outside of lectures. I've only heard anecdotes, but I'm under the impression that they have 7-8 hours a day of coursework.

That's about what I've heard. 3-5 hours of class and 3-4 hours of homework. Which seems reasonable for medical school regardless. I'd be concerned about doing well in both medical school and studying for the USMLE all the while having a life outside of school. But that's just me. To each their own? I commend you for your ability to balance these things, I think I'm not as organized as you, and in recognizing that, I don't find myself being able to balance these different tasks and succeeding in all of them.

You'd be surprised... once you start med school, it's hard not to get into it. All you really need is a study group and a schedule to keep you on track.

haha, I guess I'll have to wait and see... a few months now!

Even with his 38, you'd be expected to get 250ish on the USMLE according to the formula. His score was still amazing.

Aren't you concerned about retention and fatigue if one is studying for such a long time over such a long period? I found myself fatiguing for the MCAT after 6 months (probably why the first time didn't go so well).

Agreed, except that I would have omitted the "almost" and used stronger words.

I was trying to not be particularly harsh. But yeah... unethical is one way to put it.

Transition - are you getting PR before you come here? If you don't have PR, it'll be hard to stay here. And the Canadian board exams are harder than the USMLE - that's why most Canadians here just plan on going to the US.

No to the PR. Unless I can find a way to work it, which I'm giving about a 20% probability right now unless I can find a really good immi lawyer. As for the Cdn boards, I think you're the first to tell me that. Everyone I've spoken to that has done the Cdn boards from Aus has told me that they've been easier than the AMC exams and the materials were very similar to the materials taught by the Aussies. It's very clinical in nature. I'm not so worried about the Cdn boards, just about finding a spot. The thing about Canada is that your mark on the boards doesn't matter much. It's a matter of passing. What does matter are your references and interview (assuming you get one). I've gotten advice from the Queen's res directors (colleagues of my supervisor) that the best way to get in as an IMG is to know someone... I'm gonna have to find a way to work this, I suppose.

 

[JanikeyDoc]

Residency matching in the US is going to become extremely difficult in the US in a few years, right now there are about 30 percent more residencies than there are US medical school graduates, but now new medical schools are opening up and many hospitals are not increasing residency positions or cutting them. There are also some really bad residencies, known as malignant programs, that is actually worse than not matching at all.

 

[jaketheory]

my opinion would be to work your best to get pr then come over here. it is awesome. im obviously a bit biased. an american but always in love with aus. did a semester as an undergrad and always sought to return. made it here as a PR and doubt ill ever go back. unfortunately as an international student its unlikley youll be able to stay after graduating. i think you will want to though. do youself a favor and move here with PR. then rock up med school and love the rest of your life. by the way tuition is way cheaper here as a local than US schools (though the exchange rate s currenltly ****).

 

[Transition]

my opinion would be to work your best to get pr then come over here. it is awesome. im obviously a bit biased. an american but always in love with aus. did a semester as an undergrad and always sought to return. made it here as a PR and doubt ill ever go back. unfortunately as an international student its unlikley youll be able to stay after graduating. i think you will want to though. do youself a favor and move here with PR. then rock up med school and love the rest of your life. by the way tuition is way cheaper here as a local than US schools (though the exchange rate s currenltly ****).

I've got a plan that I'm thinking should work out. Worst comes to worst, I should be able to get back to Canada in FM. We'll see, things are hard to predict right now.

As for the states, I agree with Janikey that the IMG recruitment is going to drastically drop in the next few years. I take exception to his comment about 'malignant residency programs' that are so bad that you should probably not have matched at all. But, what's the point in arguing with him... not like he'll provide any evidence.

 

[shan564]

That's about what I've heard. 3-5 hours of class and 3-4 hours of homework. Which seems reasonable for medical school regardless. I'd be concerned about doing well in both medical school and studying for the USMLE all the while having a life outside of school. But that's just me. To each their own? I commend you for your ability to balance these things, I think I'm not as organized as you, and in recognizing that, I don't find myself being able to balance these different tasks and succeeding in all of them.

I wouldn't say that organization is the key. I don't study for the program, I just study for the USMLE. If you're prepared for the USMLE, you're prepared for our exams. It's really the same material, just slight differences in what is emphasized.

Aren't you concerned about retention and fatigue if one is studying for such a long time over such a long period? I found myself fatiguing for the MCAT after 6 months (probably why the first time didn't go so well).

The fatigue is a reality for all med students, regardless of where you go. Retention is a personal thing; it's always been one of my strengths.

As for the Cdn boards, I think you're the first to tell me that. Everyone I've spoken to that has done the Cdn boards from Aus has told me that they've been easier than the AMC exams and the materials were very similar to the materials taught by the Aussies. It's very clinical in nature. I'm not so worried about the Cdn boards, just about finding a spot. The thing about Canada is that your mark on the boards doesn't matter much. It's a matter of passing. What does matter are your references and interview (assuming you get one). I've gotten advice from the Queen's res directors (colleagues of my supervisor) that the best way to get in as an IMG is to know someone... I'm gonna have to find a way to work this, I suppose.

You might want to talk to some more people before you make a life-changing decision. Most of the Canadians here are planning on doing a residency in the US because Canada is so hard to get into for internationals. The Canadian boards are divided into parts like the American boards; they're not a single exam like the Australian boards.

The USMLE is also very clinical in nature; the questions all have a clinical context. The big difference is that you have to understand the basic sciences to answer many of them... and the same is true about the Canadian boards.

Australian graduates do have a decent match rate in Canada, but that's because only the top few grads even bother applying.

 

[Transition]

I wouldn't say that organization is the key. I don't study for the program, I just study for the USMLE. If you're prepared for the USMLE, you're prepared for our exams. It's really the same material, just slight differences in what is emphasized.


The fatigue is a reality for all med students, regardless of where you go. Retention is a personal thing; it's always been one of my strengths.

What about PBL though? I was under the impression that the emphasis of topics is very different between didactic lectures and PBL? That's partially why I've decided against the USMLE (along with the data posted in the original post) - balancing studying for the USMLE along with PBL and/or part-time job/social life may get just too ridiculous. Throw on having to use up electives to go to the US along with Canada and some in Aus, and things get a little stretched for decent references. I suppose it's about recognizing your strengths and weaknesses too. Rote memorization/retention are issues for me. I do far better in scenarios with problem-based learning and requiring critical thinking.

You might want to talk to some more people before you make a life-changing decision. Most of the Canadians here are planning on doing a residency in the US because Canada is so hard to get into for internationals. The Canadian boards are divided into parts like the American boards; they're not a single exam like the Australian boards.

The USMLE is also very clinical in nature; the questions all have a clinical context. The big difference is that you have to understand the basic sciences to answer many of them... and the same is true about the Canadian boards.

Australian graduates do have a decent match rate in Canada, but that's because only the top few grads even bother applying.

I've spoken to plenty of Aussie grads (about two dozen now) that have gone back to Canada. The boards are not an issue. They are actually very similar to AMC exams and, despite being broken up, they are not that difficult, relative to the US exams. Like I said, the biggest issue is finding a spot right now.

I understand your comment about the USMLE, but I do have a very good understanding of the material for the USMLE. I helped my ex study for them a few summers back and I know that it's also very clinical in nature. However, it's an order of magnitude more difficult in the level of basic science memorization required. It's pretty ridiculous.

Well, I didn't want to bring it up here, but there is some hope. There is currently a group in BC that is organizing itself to lobby the government to increase spots for Canadians studying medicine overseas. Thus far, they seem to have gotten a lot of support and have had some success. I'm not sure about timelines, but it's a good sign and they're getting chapters started across Canada. Add onto this the relatively large increases in IMG recruitment in CaRMS and the decent match rate Aussie schools have, and the situation should be ok. I know I'm gambling my future, but I also have some backups that I'm pretty happy about. Like I've said in other posts, my first choice is Aus, then Canada, then my backups.

I'll be creating a thread on the lobby group soon. Trying to get a chapter going for ON.

Anyways, any other comments about the NRMP data? It really does appear that IMG recruitment is dropping in the US. I'm not sure what to make of it, though.

 

[Shosha]

Aus schools may not train you specifically for Step 1, but their curricula (and teaching) are generally much better than the Caribbean.

Here's the difference:
In Australia, they go to great lengths to personally teach you the basics and tell you to learn the rest on your own.
In the Carib, they put you in a lecture about all of the USMLE material.

I have 3 clinical tutors for my group of 5 students - and we are the only group that those tutors teach. Personal attention like that is unheard of in the Carib.
And that's not counting my PBL tutor, plus all of the different lecturers, plus the independent learning mentors, etc. etc.

I have never attended a medical school in Australia, which prevents me from making statements, particularly definitive statements, about what the medical school experience is or is not in Australia. Based on your statements, I have to draw the conclusion that you have either previously attended a medical school in the Caribbean and are now attending a medical school in Australia, or you have done extensive, unbiased research, using a large sample size and rigorous statistical analyses, which would allow you to make valid and meaningful comparisons between Caribbean and Australian medical schools.

Otherwise, you are speaking authoritatively about that which you have neither experienced nor studied. I do not know what may or may not be taught at other medical schools, but at my Caribbean medical school we have been taught, in lecture and in small groups moderated by tutors, that a physician must certify only that which he/she has personally verified (per World Medical Association Guidelines), and we are encouraged to espouse and assimilate such ethical principles as early as possible in our careers (even as students).

There is no need to discredit another choice in order to make your own seem more valid - it either means that you are insecure in your own choice or are afraid others will not follow it based on its merits alone. If you are trying to encourage someone to choose the Australian route, then speak to the merits of that choice, the realities, the possibilities, the pros and cons. And if they would like to compare Australia to the Caribbean, then encourage them to ask some current Caribbean students for similar input. A wise prospective student will then weigh these two sets of VALID data and make an informed decision.

 

[JanikeyDoc]

The Caribbean schools have a heavy emphasis on USMLE preparation, go to Australia and you have to study for that on your own. Although you have people like Pollux and Caribou who aced that exam, don't see them as the norm.

 

[dmitrinyr]

Residency matching in the US is going to become extremely difficult in the US in a few years, right now there are about 30 percent more residencies than there are US medical school graduates, but now new medical schools are opening up and many hospitals are not increasing residency positions or cutting them. There are also some really bad residencies, known as malignant programs, that is actually worse than not matching at all.

Yes it is getting harder and harder for IMGs to obtain residencies regardless of where they went to medical school. This being said, it's NOT better to NOT match rather than matching at a malignant program. Yes malignant programs might be more stressful and full of crap that you might not want to deal with, but in the end you will be full qualified to sit for the boards and in a career that you hoped for after finishing residency. This is especially true for competitive residency programs. I bet you that all of the IMGs that wanted to match into surgery or anesthesia or EM but did not would give an arm and a leg to match into a malignant program instead of being jobless or having to settle for something they don't want to do.

 

[JPR22]

I've spoken to plenty of Aussie grads (about two dozen now) that have gone back to Canada. The boards are not an issue. They are actually very similar to AMC exams and, despite being broken up, they are not that difficult, relative to the US exams. Like I said, the biggest issue is finding a spot right now.

I understand your comment about the USMLE, but I do have a very good understanding of the material for the USMLE. I helped my ex study for them a few summers back and I know that it's also very clinical in nature. However, it's an order of magnitude more difficult in the level of basic science memorization required. It's pretty ridiculous.

Well, I didn't want to bring it up here, but there is some hope. There is currently a group in BC that is organizing itself to lobby the government to increase spots for Canadians studying medicine overseas. Thus far, they seem to have gotten a lot of support and have had some success. I'm not sure about timelines, but it's a good sign and they're getting chapters started across Canada. Add onto this the relatively large increases in IMG recruitment in CaRMS and the decent match rate Aussie schools have, and the situation should be ok. I know I'm gambling my future, but I also have some backups that I'm pretty happy about. Like I've said in other posts, my first choice is Aus, then Canada, then my backups.

I'll be creating a thread on the lobby group soon. Trying to get a chapter going for ON.

Anyways, any other comments about the NRMP data? It really does appear that IMG recruitment is dropping in the US. I'm not sure what to make of it, though.

You seem a little too optomistic about your chances coming back. Statistically, chances are you WONT match in CaRMS. Theres so many people who apply to carms as IMGs now. The increase in spots has resulted in an increase in applications.
I think the one route thats realistic is family med in the US on a J1, then back to Canada. You arent just gambling with your future, but your $. BTW, how are you paying for oz? Do you really want your parents risking thier retirement by cosigning your loans?

 

[shan564]

What about PBL though? I was under the impression that the emphasis of topics is very different between didactic lectures and PBL?

I'm not sure about Flinders, but our lectures every week are based around our PBL case for the week. The lectures are almost always directly related. There's very little outside study required to pass our program; I only really study for the USMLE.

I suppose it's about recognizing your strengths and weaknesses too. Rote memorization/retention are issues for me. I do far better in scenarios with problem-based learning and requiring critical thinking.

That's a complicated issue. I suck at memorization, but I'm good at retention. So, I make sure to thoroughly understand the physiology of every system/disease, and then I look at the pathology, and then pharmacology... it makes it easy for everything to be conceptual rather than "rote". The only hard part is anatomy.

I've spoken to plenty of Aussie grads (about two dozen now) that have gone back to Canada. The boards are not an issue. They are actually very similar to AMC exams and, despite being broken up, they are not that difficult, relative to the US exams. Like I said, the biggest issue is finding a spot right now.

Two points:
1. It's getting harder and harder to match every year. Four years from now, the situation will be very different from those who have already matched.
2. There may be plenty of people who matched, but there are also plenty of others who didn't. Just be advised that the general impression around here (confirmed by a CaRMS rep who gave us a talk) is that Canada is very difficult and the US is a common backup plan.

Anyways, any other comments about the NRMP data? It really does appear that IMG recruitment is dropping in the US. I'm not sure what to make of it, though.

I'm not sure about the precise data, but I know that a big chunk of those IMGs are people who are currently practicing in India/Pakistan and just apply every year and get rejected every year. They just keep applying and getting rejected over and over again, so they make the data look lower than it should be. Also, there are plenty of other internationals who are just applying to see if they can get in, but are happy practicing in their current home country.

If you look at the data for Americans/Canadians who graduate overseas and want to come back home, I think it'd be a little bit different.

Otherwise, you are speaking authoritatively about that which you have neither experienced nor studied. I do not know what may or may not be taught at other medical schools, but at my Caribbean medical school we have been taught, in lecture and in small groups moderated by tutors, that a physician must certify only that which he/she has personally verified (per World Medical Association Guidelines), and we are encouraged to espouse and assimilate such ethical principles as early as possible in our careers (even as students).

Good point, I should have qualified my statement by mentioning that it's not based on personal experience. It's mostly based on what I've heard/read from other students/friends, but it's very possible that their opinion may have been biased.

There is no need to discredit another choice in order to make your own seem more valid - it either means that you are insecure in your own choice or are afraid others will not follow it based on its merits alone. If you are trying to encourage someone to choose the Australian route, then speak to the merits of that choice, the realities, the possibilities, the pros and cons. And if they would like to compare Australia to the Caribbean, then encourage them to ask some current Caribbean students for similar input. A wise prospective student will then weigh these two sets of VALID data and make an informed decision.

We've discussed the "valid" differences several times before. Here are the advantages I see in Australia:
1. We spend 30-40% of our time (during the first two years) learning at a large public hospital. This includes clinical skills, exposure to hospital labs, etc. It's easier to learn about a disease when you've talked to some patients and examined their signs/symptoms.
2. We have a wide array of lecturers who are affiliated with the university, so we can always get a specific expert to deliver every specific lecture. Also, each PBL case is specifically designed by a team of experts in that specific disease.
3. I realize that small-group teaching happens everywhere, but to have 3 tutors for a group of 5? In addition to that, we have our PBLs, our independent learning activities, and our optional honors project. If you don't do well on an exam, they give you additional personal attention and you get a meeting with some of the coordinators, who will help you along with it.
4. There is an entire department dedicated to constantly assessing and improving the curriculum.
5. If you don't match in the US, you can get an internship in Aus if you just work for a year (in pharma or something else along those lines) and get PR after you graduate.
those are just the first few that come to mind, but I could go on forever.

The Carib also has several advantages, but I'll admit that the purpose of my post was not to present a balanced viewpoint. We all realize that the Carib schools will train you for the USMLE, and Transition was presenting that viewpoint... so I was putting forth the other side of the argument.

Anyway, you're right to say that I shouldn't jump to the conclusion that one way is better for everybody.

 

[womp]

Come on, Zimbabwe? Maybe Iceland, at worst. But mass poverty, hyperinflation, military dictatorship, etc? Don't even compare the two - I can't even imagine what the poor Zimbabweans must go through on a daily basis... and that's despite the fact that I come from Pakistan, which isn't exactly the most stable country these days.

Some parts of the US (ahem, Detroit) do look a lot like Zimbabwe.

The US has a high GINI coefficient (tied with China). In Houston, one block will have mansions and a Bentley dealer, and the next adjacent block will be run-down apartments where 3 families share a 2-bdrm apartment. In Chicago, much of the south side except for Hyde Park (UChicago campus) is a dump where shootings occur on a daily basis. The average kid who grows up in in the south side neighborhood of Englewood has no future. The average ACT score of seniors from Englewood is 13.5 (that's 5th percentile) and only 5% meet Illinois state standards.

In many ways, the US is a lot like China in its inequality, except it has more guns and crime, and less jobs available for its growing unskilled underclass.

 

[shan564]

Some parts of the US (ahem, Detroit) do look a lot like Zimbabwe.

The worst parts of the US might look something like the best parts of Zimbabwe. I've never been to Zimbabwe, but I can compare it to Pakistan... come to think of it, it's not even worth comparing.

The US has a high GINI coefficient (tied with China). In Houston, one block will have mansions and a Bentley dealer, and the next adjacent block will be run-down apartments where 3 families share a 2-bdrm apartment. In Chicago, much of the south side except for Hyde Park (UChicago campus) is a dump where shootings occur on a daily basis. The average kid who grows up in in the south side neighborhood of Englewood has no future. The average ACT score of seniors from Englewood is 13.5 (that's 5th percentile) and only 5% meet Illinois state standards.

In many ways, the US is a lot like China in its inequality, except it has more guns and crime, and less jobs available for its growing unskilled underclass.

Yeah, there's quite a bit of inequity in the US... but places like Zimbabwe are a whole other world. The US has inequity... other places just have widespread poverty that doesn't even compare to what I see in the ghettos of East St. Louis (often regarded as the poorest area in the US) or South Chicago.

 

[Knockout Mouse]

I think that Australia is a much better choice than the Caribbean.

I'm an American at USyd. Last summer break I worked at a US hospital and asked several doctors about the prospects of getting a residency spot as an IMG. They were unanimous in stating that since USyd was on par with the best US med schools that basically I wouldn't even really be considered an IMG by most residency admissions boards. They all felt that USyd had a big reputation advantage over the caribbean.

Of course you still have to do well on the USMLE and kick ass on your US rotations, etc., but going to school at USyd definitely won't hurt you.

 

[jaketheory]

I think that Australia is a much better choice than the Caribbean.

I'm an American at USyd. Last summer break I worked at a US hospital and asked several doctors about the prospects of getting a residency spot as an IMG. They were unanimous in stating that since USyd was on par with the best US med schools that basically I wouldn't even really be considered an IMG by most residency admissions boards. They all felt that USyd had a big reputation advantage over the caribbean.

[\QUOTE]

i think that is interesting.

i guess name recognition can do you some good? i still think that a caribean school will prepare you to be a doc in the US much better than USyd. there are considerable differences in the australian health care industry as well as medical education.

what hospital were you at? were these residency directors?

there are many hospitals that fill nearly half their spots wit IMG's simply cuz local grads would prefer to train elsewhere. even some major university teaching hospitals are like that. if a hospital is accustomed to taking IMG's simply because that is how the match allocates them residents, they arent going to be opposed to taking them. further, residents and attendings that have no say in the choice of residents doesnt really mean too much. i definitely would not argue that it would be hard to get a US resideny. many do it all the time. but you are significantly reducing your choices for specialties and what hospitals to which you can get a resident position. but that is the case for carib schools as well. i personally would much rather go to an aus school than a carib school any way.

 

[kash_711]

I think that Australia is a much better choice than the Caribbean.

I'm an American at USyd. Last summer break I worked at a US hospital and asked several doctors about the prospects of getting a residency spot as an IMG. They were unanimous in stating that since USyd was on par with the best US med schools that basically I wouldn't even really be considered an IMG by most residency admissions boards. They all felt that USyd had a big reputation advantage over the caribbean.

Of course you still have to do well on the USMLE and kick ass on your US rotations, etc., but going to school at USyd definitely won't hurt you.

Sorry to burst your bubble but your an IMG anyway you look at it. I know its hard to believe but a lot of residency programs only accept AMG's. More than that if you apply to derm, neuro, ortho, ENT, rads, among others I think being an IMG will be a huge factor, for better or worse.

I don't think it matters if you went to the carib, aus, or india, or south america. FMG's and IMG's come from all over the world to complete their residencies in America, do well, get good scores and everything will fall into place.

The doctor shortage in america will not be solved by increasing medical school positions. Obama's plan is worthless if he doesn't follow it up with increasing residency positions plain and simple.

 

[Knockout Mouse]

Just to clarify.

I know I will be considered an IMG.

I guess my point is that the quality and reputation of your school will count more than your blanket status as an IMG.

And the very bottom line is that your personal performance (rotation evals, Step 1 scores, etc) is going to count a whole lot more than whether you're an IMG, or a DO, or whatever.

I was just passing on the opinions of a few US doctors that felt that Australian medical schools have an excellent reputation.

 

[kash_711]

Just to clarify.

I know I will be considered an IMG.

I guess my point is that the quality and reputation of your school will count more than your blanket status as an IMG.

And the very bottom line is that your personal performance (rotation evals, Step 1 scores, etc) is going to count a whole lot more than whether you're an IMG, or a DO, or whatever.

I was just passing on the opinions of a few US doctors that felt that Australian medical schools have an excellent reputation.

I just had a problem with the "I wouldn't even really be considered an IMG by most residency admissions boards" you most certainly will be put in the IMG stack, and you won't take the place an AMG and even a less qualified AMG at MOST programs. PD's and residency programs want to attract AMG's (a few distinguished programs like the cleaveland clinic want the best candidate) but by and large your going straight to the IMG stack, or won't even be considered because you're an IMG.


I agree that going to a medical school in places other than the carribean will help you out tremendously when looking for residencies by default because of the stigma that is associated with carribean schools with many PD's. But I wouldn't go so far as to say that a PD differentiates between american who graduates from monash, UQ, USyD (although this could change after the UQ/Ochsner program). And for that matter I can't say you would have a distinct advantage from americans who graduate from ireland, israel or (insert other country here). I think because the quantity of IMG's coming from the carribean each year, and because of the disparity in the quality of education between the 10 or whatever schools, it negatively affects all carribean graduates. Basically I think the PD's really don't care that you went to USyd its that you didn't go to a carribean school(MY OPINION).

 

[kash_711]

Firstly, let's please keep this civil? I am trying to have a productive discussion here, so would love to hear others' views on the matter.
Anyway, I'm sure that some of you have looked into this, but since I've been getting some PMs about this, I thought I would post it.

http://www.nrmp.org/data/chartingoutcomes2009v3.pdf

It's a well-written article from the NRMP (National Residency Matching Program) that outlines the average USMLE scores, profiles, research experiences, etc. for US and independent grads for residency matching last year.

The numbers that are important to keep in mind are the number of applicants to spots and the average USMLE scores for the US grads vs number US grads. Given the Obama healthcare agenda (boost local training, decrease foreign doctor dependence), you can safely assume that a US grad with an x percentile USMLE will get picked over an independent with approximately the same score. Where it's a little iffy is what the cutoff would be for internationals to get in over a local grad, but I would personally not be confident with a score that wasn't at least 20 %ile points higher than the median US grad. Especially if you take into account the number of US grad applicants vs. the number of spots available (notice how there aren't many spots left over for independents) and if you look at similar reports from 2007 and 2008 (google is your friend), the trend seems to suggest a convergence to a 1:1 ratio in the future. What does this mean? That the number of spots open to independents is closing. Why is this not good? Well, it means that the average USMLE scores are going to need to be much higher to keep up with competition.

<personal opinion> Seriously, if you are thinking about going to Aus to train to go back to the US, think carefully. The Carib is likely your best bet as they will specifically train you to do well on the USMLE. Plus, you will do all of your core clinicals in the States. Programs like Ochsner make little sense. Reputation aside, there are few benefits to said program, at least so far as I can tell.

Basically, based on this data, as a non-US citizen, I have decided that I will concentrate on going back to Canada and/or stay in Australia. Adding studying for the USMLE on top of all that, coming from a non-USMLE oriented curric, well, it would be fool hardy. I guess more because I want a balance in my life as well instead of non-stop work.

Opinions?

Isn't ochsner more like a carrib program and less like a Aus program. I can remember when applying there that they distinctly stated that people in the UQ/Ochsner program would get USMLE instruction or lectures or whatever.

The number of residency spots has to increase. The doctor shortage in america (some estimate it to be 100,000 by 2020) will not be solved by pumping out more AMG grads without a proportional increase in residency slots. Residency positions have not kept up with new medical school seats and if obamacare has any chance of being successful the only short term solution is to create more RESIDENCY spots and rely on IMG/FMG to fix the mistakes of AMA in the 1980's that kept medical school seats pretty much stagnant for 2 decades or so.

I decided not to go to the carribean and it has nothing to do about residency. After working in physician consulting, I can tell you that most physician groups discriminate against 1) carribean graduate 2) and FMG's with an accent. A lot of groups will only accept AMG MD's, and will definetly consider an IMG's from europe, aus, israel before a carribean graduate. Recruiter's would think twice about passing on a doctor with an accent or a carribean graduate. With that said, every single IMG/FMG who completes a residency in the US (accent and carrib grads) will field multiple opportunities it might just not be that MGMA 90th percentile Income position in the middle of New York City with no call and a 40 hour a week schedule that everyone seems to want .

 

[shan564]

I just had a problem with the "I wouldn't even really be considered an IMG by most residency admissions boards" you most certainly will be put in the IMG stack, and you won't take the place an AMG and even a less qualified AMG at MOST programs.

I think that the "wouldn't be considered an IMG..." statement sounds a little bit more ridiculous when it's taken out of context. I'm pretty sure he meant to imply that most PD's would subjectively consider a graduate from a well-reputed Aussie school to be essentially equal (in terms of training) to an American graduate; still, we all realize that any international graduate is at a clear disadvantage simply because American programs place American graduates at top priority.

Knockout - where did you hear this? I'll be in your position in a few years (looking for clinical rotations, etc.), so if you know of some PD's that are relatively friendly to USyd, I might ask your permission to mooch off of your finding...

 

[Raigon]

I think that the "wouldn't be considered an IMG..." statement sounds a little bit more ridiculous when it's taken out of context. I'm pretty sure he meant to imply that most PD's would subjectively consider a graduate from a well-reputed Aussie school to be essentially equal (in terms of training) to an American graduate; still, we all realize that any international graduate is at a clear disadvantage simply because American programs place American graduates at top priority.

Knockout - where did you hear this? I'll be in your position in a few years (looking for clinical rotations, etc.), so if you know of some PD's that are relatively friendly to USyd, I might ask your permission to mooch off of your finding...

And Shan564, I'll be applying to University of Sydney next year (over Melbourne, you guys convinced me at the Melbourne Thread) and I'd like to ask what my chances are with a 30Q, 3.7 GPA for National Taiwan University. Any cutoffs you know of? I've already searched their site and found nothing. And what interview questions they asked and how you answered it and such.

And could you suggest a route for me so I could do my clinical rotations in the United States?

Thanks. I'll bribe you with a few hundred bucks next time I see ya if I make it to Sydney.

 

[CUHKJLM]

For your reference, I have got into USyd with a 30N and ~3.4GPA this year (2010 entry) So, your score should be fine. For interview, USyd uses the multiple mini-interview format. You can check the past interview experience of other students from this website:

http://pagingdr.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=interview&action=display&thread=313

I think you do not need to worry the interview too much. Having lived in USA for a long time, your English should be much better than mine. I do not think my interview performance is that good considering English is only my second language (I am a Chinese from Hong Kong)

For your more information, I was accepted by both USyd and Queensland (no interview needed) I was rejected by ANU and Flinders without an interview. Though I think USyd is more reputable than ANU and Flinders, I really want to get into these two schools due to their much lower tuition fee (USyd is >AUD10K more expensive each year) So, if tuition fee is also your greatest concern, you may try to improve your MCAT or sit the GAMSAT (the AUS version of MCAT) Anyway, good luck for your medical school application and hope can see you in Sydney (or other AUS cities) in the future.

 

[Transition]

And Shan564, I'll be applying to University of Sydney next year (over Melbourne, you guys convinced me at the Melbourne Thread) and I'd like to ask what my chances are with a 30Q, 3.7 GPA for National Taiwan University. Any cutoffs you know of? I've already searched their site and found nothing. And what interview questions they asked and how you answered it and such.

And could you suggest a route for me so I could do my clinical rotations in the United States?

Thanks. I'll bribe you with a few hundred bucks next time I see ya if I make it to Sydney.

From my talks with USyd, they take your most recent MCAT marks, but don't quote me on that as things may have changed for the next round of application. I believe you mentioned your mcat dropped to a 27 on the 2nd try? If so, it may be worthwhile contacting them now to see if you need to re-write. Applications will open in May (via ACER).

GPA is only a hurdle and so won't help you in getting in, unfortunately.

 

[Raigon]

From my talks with USyd, they take your most recent MCAT marks, but don't quote me on that as things may have changed for the next round of application. I believe you mentioned your mcat dropped to a 27 on the 2nd try? If so, it may be worthwhile contacting them now to see if you need to re-write. Applications will open in May (via ACER).

GPA is only a hurdle and so won't help you in getting in, unfortunately.

I've contacted USyd, Queensland, and Flinders - they all look at your best score within ... 2 years? Well, they say I can nominate which scores to use. They'll look at the score you choose so long as they're both recent. Quote:

"Dear Edwin

MCAT results are valid for 2 years. If you have more than one set of valid scores, you can nominate which one should be used.

Applicants with MCAT scores should achieve a numerical aggregate of 24 with a grade of M or better in the writing sample and 8 in sections that are given numerical scores.

For 2010 entry, applicants who met the admissions test requirements given above, and who also met the GPA requirement, were invited for interview.

Kind regards
MELINDA TEOH | Admissions Officer
SYDNEY MEDICAL SCHOOL
Edward Ford Building - A27
The University of Sydney
NSW AUSTRALIA 2006
CRICOS Provider Number: 00026A"

So far, all 3 with the US fed-loan approved say they'll consider the highest score or which score you choose (the highes score) after 2008. Thank goodness I contacted them myself.

And 2 of the schools say you can apply independently to their internationals office. Flinders and U. Queensland I believe I'll just submit it directly to their school. U Syd must be applied through to ACER. ACER allows you two schools, I believe if you're international (unless I convert to local with permanent residence, I get 3 but that'll take too long). U Syd first, then what? Any suggestions?

For your reference, I have got into USyd with a 30N and ~3.4GPA this year (2010 entry) So, your score should be fine. For interview, USyd uses the multiple mini-interview format. You can check the past interview experience of other students from this website:

http://pagingdr.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=interview&action=display&thread=313

I think you do not need to worry the interview too much. Having lived in USA for a long time, your English should be much better than mine. I do not think my interview performance is that good considering English is only my second language (I am a Chinese from Hong Kong)

For your more information, I was accepted by both USyd and Queensland (no interview needed) I was rejected by ANU and Flinders without an interview. Though I think USyd is more reputable than ANU and Flinders, I really want to get into these two schools due to their much lower tuition fee (USyd is >AUD10K more expensive each year) So, if tuition fee is also your greatest concern, you may try to improve your MCAT or sit the GAMSAT (the AUS version of MCAT) Anyway, good luck for your medical school application and hope can see you in Sydney (or other AUS cities) in the future.

Hi! Sorry, I missed your reply the first time because it didn't quote my previous post.

Glad to see a fellow chinese. My biggest question will be - which school did you decide to attend: Usyd or queensland? If you go to Usyd, how will you pay your tuition fee? I understand Usyd is probably the #1 school I want to go to IF I could pay off the tuition fee...

Wait wait... they ask for SCIENCE knowledge in the interview? I never knew that. Did you remember any of your Sydney interview questions? I couldn't find the questions on that post, only the post by Miss-G-Administrator, who told you of the process, but not the questions. What do the interviewees focus on? Anything special?

Don't say your english isn't good. Hong Kong's english is on Par with Singapore. Just different accents. Some of you guys even correct our damned grammar. And plus you made it in. Proof your english is exemplary. Another would be your post. Good english. Stop being modest. =D

 

[shan564]

And Shan564, I'll be applying to University of Sydney next year (over Melbourne, you guys convinced me at the Melbourne Thread) and I'd like to ask what my chances are with a 30Q, 3.7 GPA for National Taiwan University. Any cutoffs you know of? I've already searched their site and found nothing. And what interview questions they asked and how you answered it and such.

And could you suggest a route for me so I could do my clinical rotations in the United States?

Thanks. I'll bribe you with a few hundred bucks next time I see ya if I make it to Sydney.

I known people who got in with a 29, so a 30 isn't unreasonable. It varies a bit from year to year, but if you have a decent interview, you'll have a decent shot. Be advised that they're supposed to change their admission system next year (not sure whether that'll actually happen)...

The interview isn't just about your English skills (as the other person suggested) - they care much more about your thought process and sincerity. I can't remember what specific questions they asked, but keep in mind that they claim to be good at spotting rehearsed answers. I've heard of a lot of people who prepare specific answers for specific questions, and those people usually don't get in. When you get to the interview, they'll present you with a novel situation (maybe an ethical question, maybe a logical one) and see how your respond to it. You can look at the practice questions on their website, or google "multiple mini interview" to find practice questions from other universities that use the same format.

As far as clinical rotations, you don't need to worry about that quite yet. If you want to do a couple of rotations in the US, you'll be able to do it without much trouble. USyd has specific collaborations with a Cornell and Columbia, but even if you don't get into those programs, you can still arrange your own pretty easily.

 

[Raigon]

I known people who got in with a 29, so a 30 isn't unreasonable. It varies a bit from year to year, but if you have a decent interview, you'll have a decent shot. Be advised that they're supposed to change their admission system next year (not sure whether that'll actually happen)...

The interview isn't just about your English skills (as the other person suggested) - they care much more about your thought process and sincerity. I can't remember what specific questions they asked, but keep in mind that they claim to be good at spotting rehearsed answers. I've heard of a lot of people who prepare specific answers for specific questions, and those people usually don't get in. When you get to the interview, they'll present you with a novel situation (maybe an ethical question, maybe a logical one) and see how your respond to it. You can look at the practice questions on their website, or google "multiple mini interview" to find practice questions from other universities that use the same format.

As far as clinical rotations, you don't need to worry about that quite yet. If you want to do a couple of rotations in the US, you'll be able to do it without much trouble. USyd has specific collaborations with a Cornell and Columbia, but even if you don't get into those programs, you can still arrange your own pretty easily.

I've found some list of questions interview questions. I'll get a general idea, but probably won't rehearse them. I think my best shot would be to do well on the MMI. I heard that you can go to your local Australian International Agent thingy instead of flying to Campus. Is that true or must you go to Campus?

Er... student loans. How are you planning to pay them off? I'm asking for advise as a future fellow applicant. Would it be surprising if I see you during a MMI? That would be awesome.

Thanks!

 

[CUHKJLM]

Hi! Sorry, I missed your reply the first time because it didn't quote my previous post.

Glad to see a fellow chinese. My biggest question will be - which school did you decide to attend: Usyd or queensland? If you go to Usyd, how will you pay your tuition fee? I understand Usyd is probably the #1 school I want to go to IF I could pay off the tuition fee...

Wait wait... they ask for SCIENCE knowledge in the interview? I never knew that. Did you remember any of your Sydney interview questions? I couldn't find the questions on that post, only the post by Miss-G-Administrator, who told you of the process, but not the questions. What do the interviewees focus on? Anything special?

Don't say your english isn't good. Hong Kong's english is on Par with Singapore. Just different accents. Some of you guys even correct our damned grammar. And plus you made it in. Proof your english is exemplary. Another would be your post. Good english. Stop being modest. =D

I finally choose USyd instead of Queensland since I think the benefits of studying in USyd (e.g. better reputation, smaller class size and opportunity of rural clinical rotation) outweigh the cost (higher tuition fee of ~AUD8K each year) Truly, tuition fee is really a big problem to me, especaially in Hong Kong, we cannot get any loan from the government or banks. So, the tuition fee is supported by my own (I have worked for several years in HK) and my parent's saving. I really think I owe so much to my parents and I should repay their kindness if I can finally become a doctor...

For the interview, you can refer to the later pages (p.4 - 6) of that thread for more recent posts regarding the interview experience of USyd students. You can select the page no. in the middle of the web page. In case you cannot find it, here is the link to p.4:

http://pagingdr.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=interview&action=display&thread=313&page=4

Shan is right, the interview isn't just about your English skills, but also your thought process and sincerity. As you can see from other student's expericne in the above thread, USyd do not ask any science questions. Some questions are repeated from prior years. I have seen 6 out of my 9 questions in the above thread. So, I think it should be a wise idea for you to prepare/analyse the questions beforehand and think of your own sincere answers. USyd held the interviews in Sydney, Vancouver and Singapore this year and probably will continue to have interviews at these 3 cities next year.

I think I have not made it very clear, but my main point should be, USyd should not be too difficult to enter as an international candidate from my personal experience. As far as you perform reasonably well in the interview, they should accept you. After all, their tuition fee should be too high for many. I would not choose it too if I could enter ANU or Flinders. Hope it helps and good luck for you!

 

[Raigon]

I finally choose USyd instead of Queensland since I think the benefits of studying in USyd (e.g. better reputation, smaller class size and opportunity of rural clinical rotation) outweigh the cost (higher tuition fee of ~AUD8K each year) Truly, tuition fee is really a big problem to me, especaially in Hong Kong, we cannot get any loan from the government or banks. So, the tuition fee is supported by my own (I have worked for several years in HK) and my parent's saving. I really think I owe so much to my parents and I should repay their kindness if I can finally become a doctor...

For the interview, you can refer to the later pages (p.4 - 6) of that thread for more recent posts regarding the interview experience of USyd students. You can select the page no. in the middle of the web page. In case you cannot find it, here is the link to p.4:

http://pagingdr.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=interview&action=display&thread=313&page=4

Shan is right, the interview isn't just about your English skills, but also your thought process and sincerity. As you can see from other student's expericne in the above thread, USyd do not ask any science questions. Some questions are repeated from prior years. I have seen 6 out of my 9 questions in the above thread. So, I think it should be a wise idea for you to prepare/analyse the questions beforehand and think of your own sincere answers. USyd held the interviews in Sydney, Vancouver and Singapore this year and probably will continue to have interviews at these 3 cities next year.

I think I have not made it very clear, but my main point should be, USyd should not be too difficult to enter as an international candidate from my personal experience. As far as you perform reasonably well in the interview, they should accept you. After all, their tuition fee should be too high for many. I would not choose it too if I could enter ANU or Flinders. Hope it helps and good luck for you!

The only edge I have over you in terms of tuition fee is that I can get a US Federal loan. And even then it can only cover part of it. I have to cover the last few loose edges with my own and parents' savings (Although I didn't save a lot, because part-time in Taiwan doesn't pay a lot). I'm also worried on how to pay it back if I get into Sydney or University of Queensland. I've already relifed on my parents for NTU's tuition fees. Medical School is really expensive. Their savings won't cover it. I'll have to work in Australia, but it'll be really hard without permanent residence. I'm getting pretty worried.

I'll have to fly to Singapore for the MMIs, and I should have my professors at National Taiwan University rehearse me if they have the time. I've never been to Singapore, but I heard you can ride your bike around the whole country in less than a day.

My 3.7~3.9 GPA won't help me, because it's only a hurdle, it doesn't add any points. My MCAT is a 30Q, which means I'll have to heavily rely on good performance on the MMI.

I known people who got in with a 29, so a 30 isn't unreasonable. It varies a bit from year to year, but if you have a decent interview, you'll have a decent shot. Be advised that they're supposed to change their admission system next year (not sure whether that'll actually happen)...

The interview isn't just about your English skills (as the other person suggested) - they care much more about your thought process and sincerity. I can't remember what specific questions they asked, but keep in mind that they claim to be good at spotting rehearsed answers. I've heard of a lot of people who prepare specific answers for specific questions, and those people usually don't get in. When you get to the interview, they'll present you with a novel situation (maybe an ethical question, maybe a logical one) and see how your respond to it. You can look at the practice questions on their website, or google "multiple mini interview" to find practice questions from other universities that use the same format.

As far as clinical rotations, you don't need to worry about that quite yet. If you want to do a couple of rotations in the US, you'll be able to do it without much trouble. USyd has specific collaborations with a Cornell and Columbia, but even if you don't get into those programs, you can still arrange your own pretty easily.

But what I'm most concerned about is AFTER I get in, how I'll prepare for the USMLEs and do well in the US residency matching. Shan, you said there are partnership programs with Columbia and Cornell. Can you be more specific? Can I do my clinical rotations there? Interns? Residency? What? What's your path for going back to the US if you have one? Can you share it with me?

 

[jaketheory]

The only edge I have over you in terms of tuition fee is that I can get a US Federal loan. And even then it can only cover part of it.

i was under the impression US federal Graduate Plus loans would cover the difference between the total cost of attendance and what Stafford loans will cover, which is about 21k USD for international med students. am i wrong?

My MCAT is a 30Q, which means I'll have to heavily rely on good performance on the MMI.

i think admissions is 50/50 exam score and interview. i think 30 is pretty soild, so i dont think you have to rock out better than everyone else on the interview just to get in. if you do just as well as every other successful applicant, your 30 is probably good enough.

Shan, you said there are partnership programs with Columbia and Cornell.

i'm not shan but ill thrown in my 2 cents. the partnerships with columbia and cornell are not special. you can do rotations pretty much anywhere in the US. you just have to set them up. that entails searching through universities/hospitals and rotations to find in which you are interested and applying. they will probably require some sort of proof of medical indemnity as well as a fee for participating. some of these fees can be equal to the cost of tuition for their own students ($3000+/4 week rotation at school like Harvard, stanford, Upenn, etc. . .), but many have very reasonable costs, $200-$500. given living costs in NYC are very high, you'd probably save a lot by doing a rotation somewhere else and paying these lower fees.

 

[shan564]

i'm not shan but ill thrown in my 2 cents. the partnerships with columbia and cornell are not special. you can do rotations pretty much anywhere in the US. you just have to set them up. that entails searching through universities/hospitals and rotations to find in which you are interested and applying. they will probably require some sort of proof of medical indemnity as well as a fee for participating. some of these fees can be equal to the cost of tuition for their own students ($3000+/4 week rotation at school like Harvard, stanford, Upenn, etc. . .), but many have very reasonable costs, $200-$500. given living costs in NYC are very high, you'd probably save a lot by doing a rotation somewhere else and paying these lower fees.

Yeah, that's pretty much all there is to it. You can do 2 of your rotations (~4-5 months) in the US, plus anything that you want to set up during your vacations. As far as doing a residency in the US, you'd just have to take the USMLE and do well. If you get a good score, you'll probably get a residency, but most people have to study a bit of extra material in order to be prepared for the USMLE (there are a few things that we don't cover in Australia that they do test on the American exams).

Er... student loans. How are you planning to pay them off? I'm asking for advise as a future fellow applicant.

My plan is to become a doctor, earn a salary, and use that money to pay off my student loans... the same thing most American graduates do. If you want detailed financial advice, you're probably better off asking the guys in the financial aid forums, since the students at American private schools pay the same fees that we pay in Australia. The bottom line is - I've never met a doctor who said that the student loans were too much to pay off on a doctor's income.

Would it be surprising if I see you during a MMI? That would be awesome.

You're doing your interview in Singapore, right? There's no chance that I'll end up there.

 

[Raigon]

Yeah, that's pretty much all there is to it. You can do 2 of your rotations (~4-5 months) in the US, plus anything that you want to set up during your vacations. As far as doing a residency in the US, you'd just have to take the USMLE and do well. If you get a good score, you'll probably get a residency, but most people have to study a bit of extra material in order to be prepared for the USMLE (there are a few things that we don't cover in Australia that they do test on the American exams).

Materials - by materials you mean Kaplan's Qbank and review books, right? I heard that they prepare you best for the USMLE. You have study groups right? How did you approach other fellow medical students to join your study group? Or did you join one that was already formed? Or did it all just come together?

My plan is to become a doctor, earn a salary, and use that money to pay off my student loans... the same thing most American graduates do. If you want detailed financial advice, you're probably better off asking the guys in the financial aid forums, since the students at American private schools pay the same fees that we pay in Australia. The bottom line is - I've never met a doctor who said that the student loans were too much to pay off on a doctor's income.

I see. I was just thinking about how long it'll take me off to pay, including residency (USA)/Internship (Australia) and fellowship programs. They take about 7 to 8 years of <50,000 USD, while my debts are probably up to 250~300K. Unless I don't eat, pay my electric bills, etc, I don't think I can pay them back during residency. That's what I'm concerned about most. Do the fed loans really give you that long of a time to pay back your loans?

You're doing your interview in Singapore, right? There's no chance that I'll end up there.

Well, who knows? Maybe you'll end up taking a vacation or doing some clinical rotations there XD.