Reasons for hi-stat reapplicants?

[mstpgrind]

Hi all,

I just stumbled across a bunch of SDN posts about hi-stat reapplicants. As I'm sure we all are, I'm super high strung about this upcoming cycle and want to make sure I don't mess up obvious things.

Can someone let me know if I'm missing any of the common reasons people are hi stat reapplicants?

• School list
  • top-heavy
  • too small (<20 schools)
  • low yield (OOS)
• Interview performance
• Too little clinical/non-clinical hours (<100 hrs)
• Weird PS
• Submitted primary/secondaries too late

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[Neuroscifan]

Red flags are also a problem for anyone. If they have IAs that they don’t recover from, or they brush off, or deal with them poorly in general. Another red flag can be found in LOR. A premed at my undergrad had wicked stats, but was reclusive in his undergrad and didn’t make any connections with professors or mentors. He scrambled very last minute and his letters evidently just said something to the effect of “student performed well in class and didn’t cause any trouble.”

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

Red flag is a big one. I applied to like 50 places and only got into 2. So if I applied 5o 30 I would’ve been a reapplicant

 

[deleted555445]

Red flag is a big one. I applied to like 50 places and only got into 2. So if I applied 5o 30 I would’ve been a reapplicant

By that math if you had applied to 25 you would've gotten into 1. So <25 would be your danger number. But then again its also all about school selection, adding random schools that you come in having a 0.1% chance of getting into either due to stats, poor mission fit, or location isn't going to add much value

 

[deleted555445]

Hi all,

I just stumbled across a bunch of SDN posts about hi-stat reapplicants. As I'm sure we all are, I'm super high strung about this upcoming cycle and want to make sure I don't mess up obvious things.

Can someone let me know if I'm missing any of the common reasons people are hi stat reapplicants?

• School list
  • top-heavy
  • too small (<20 schools)
  • low yield (OOS)
• Interview performance
• Too little clinical/non-clinical hours (<100 hrs)
• Weird PS
• Submitted primary/secondaries too late

Generally its a school list issue, sometimes compounded with assuming that high stats are what gets you in rather than what gets your foot in the door. You need to be an interesting person otherwise, with experiences that give you some perspective on the world. You also need to be able to articulate those so that other people can appreciate your insights. I'd expand too little clinical hours to say too little non-academic experience in general.

 

[Bonne Nuit]

Hi all,

I just stumbled across a bunch of SDN posts about hi-stat reapplicants. As I'm sure we all are, I'm super high strung about this upcoming cycle and want to make sure I don't mess up obvious things.

Can someone let me know if I'm missing any of the common reasons people are hi stat reapplicants?

• School list
  • top-heavy
  • too small (<20 schools)
  • low yield (OOS)
• Interview performance
• Too little clinical/non-clinical hours (<100 hrs)
• Weird PS
• Submitted primary/secondaries too late

You've pretty much covered it. Most high stat rejections I've personally seen were due to a combination of bad ECs and poor school list.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

By that math if you had applied to 25 you would've gotten into 1. So <25 would be your danger number. But then again its also all about school selection, adding random schools that you come in having a 0.1% chance of getting into either due to stats, poor mission fit, or location isn't going to add much value

Statistically yes. But both were added after the initial 35ish that I submitted iirc.

 

[Goro]

Hi all,

I just stumbled across a bunch of SDN posts about hi-stat reapplicants. As I'm sure we all are, I'm super high strung about this upcoming cycle and want to make sure I don't mess up obvious things.

Can someone let me know if I'm missing any of the common reasons people are hi stat reapplicants?

• School list
  • top-heavy
  • too small (<20 schools)
  • low yield (OOS)
• Interview performance
• Too little clinical/non-clinical hours (<100 hrs)
• Weird PS
• Submitted primary/secondaries too late

We just had a thread for this.

Bad essays
Bad LOR
Low yield as in aimed too high and not towards safer schools, like one's state school or Keck/Emory class schools.

But you pretty much covered it.

 

[LindaAccepted]

Hi all,

I just stumbled across a bunch of SDN posts about hi-stat reapplicants. As I'm sure we all are, I'm super high strung about this upcoming cycle and want to make sure I don't mess up obvious things.

Can someone let me know if I'm missing any of the common reasons people are hi stat reapplicants?

• School list
  • top-heavy
  • too small (<20 schools)
  • low yield (OOS)
• Interview performance
• Too little clinical/non-clinical hours (<100 hrs)
• Weird PS
• Submitted primary/secondaries too late

Your list is good, but I'll add a few:

• Poor presentation of your qualifications via your essays. Focused on what you did as about to what you learned and contributed.
• Sense that you are a little cocky due to high numbers.
• Failed to show fit with individual programs via secondaries and interviews.
  
  

 

[Obnoxious Dad]

Hi all,

I just stumbled across a bunch of SDN posts about hi-stat reapplicants. As I'm sure we all are, I'm super high strung about this upcoming cycle and want to make sure I don't mess up obvious things.

Can someone let me know if I'm missing any of the common reasons people are hi stat reapplicants?

• School list
  • top-heavy
  • too small (<20 schools)
  • low yield (OOS)
• Interview performance
• Too little clinical/non-clinical hours (<100 hrs)
• Weird PS
• Submitted primary/secondaries too late

You've overlooked the most important factor: state of residence. Approximately 50% of students at allopathic medical schools attend a publicly owned medical school in their state of residence. If someone lives in a state like Ohio, Michigan or West Virginia with a high number of state owned seats per 100,000 people, he or she has a much better chance of gaining admission than some poor schlub from New Hampshire, Rhode Island or California.

https://www.aamc.org/media/6076/download?attachment

State at the table above. You will see marked differences from state to state in the average MCAT score among matriculants. This is the very best measure of the differing prospects among applicants based on state of residence. There are posters on this board who cite the matriculants/applicants ratio by state to show that there is little difference by state. That ratio is misleading because it does not account for self exclusion i.e., people who don't apply because they already know it's a waste of time and money.

https://www.aamc.org/media/6071/download?attachment

Don't believe that people self-exclude? Look at the table above and you will see marked differences in average MCAT score among applicants. I haven't bothered to run a correlation but it looks like MCAT averages by state among applicants closely correlate with MCAT averages among matriculants.

 

[mstpgrind]

You've overlooked the most important factor: state of residence. Approximately 50% of students at allopathic medical schools attend a publicly owned medical school in their state of residence. If someone lives in a state like Ohio, Michigan or West Virginia with a high number of state owned seats per 100,000 people, he or she has a much better chance of gaining admission than some poor schlub from New Hampshire, Rhode Island or California.

https://www.aamc.org/media/6076/download?attachment

State at the table above. You will see marked differences from state to state in the average MCAT score among matriculants. This is the very best measure of the differing prospects among applicants based on state of residence. There are posters on this board who cite the matriculants/applicants ratio by state to show that there is little difference by state. That ratio is misleading because it does not account for self exclusion i.e., people who don't apply because they already know it's a waste of time and money.

https://www.aamc.org/media/6071/download?attachment

Don't believe that people self-exclude? Look at the table above and you will see marked differences in average MCAT score among applicants. I haven't bothered to run a correlation but it looks like MCAT averages by state among applicants closely correlate with MCAT averages among matriculants.

Question: so I'm a virginia resident (raised for last 10 years), but I was born in Michigan, went to undergrad there, and have a lot of family (grandparents, cousins, aunts, uncles, etc) that live there. I also have a permanent address there. Could I be considered a resident of MI and VA?

 

[Neuroscifan]

Question: so I'm a virginia resident (raised for last 10 years), but I was born in Michigan, went to undergrad there, and have a lot of family (grandparents, cousins, aunts, uncles, etc) that live there. I also have a permanent address there. Could I be considered a resident of MI and VA?

No, you can only be a resident of one state. Schools vary in what they are willing to consider for residency. My state school didn’t count me as a resident, even though I was raised there for 16 years, graduated high school there, and still have my parents there. Because I hadn’t physically lived there for the last 12 months, it didn’t count. However, some schools may be different. Another school I hoped to apply to counter my residence differently as the state that I was raised and didn’t count my living in their state for my undergrad as an established residence to be in state. I suggest looking at the schools requirements for residency and communicating with their offices of admissions. AMCAS only allows one selection.

 

[KnightDoc]

State at the table above. You will see marked differences from state to state in the average MCAT score among matriculants. This is the very best measure of the differing prospects among applicants based on state of residence. There are posters on this board who cite the matriculants/applicants ratio by state to show that there is little difference by state. That ratio is misleading because it does not account for self exclusion i.e., people who don't apply because they already know it's a waste of time and money.

https://www.aamc.org/media/6071/download?attachment

Don't believe that people self-exclude? Look at the table above and you will see marked differences in average MCAT score among applicants. I haven't bothered to run a correlation but it looks like MCAT averages by state among applicants closely correlate with MCAT averages among matriculants.

Is this because people self-exclude, or because state schools have a mission and a mandate, so they have no choice but to play the hand they are dealt?

In other words, are lower statistic CA applicants really self-excluding, while MS applicants lack the self awareness to do so? Or, is CA just blessed with a abundance of high achieving students, while the University of Mississippi is required to be 100% IS, so it takes what it can get? I'm pretty sure it's the latter, given the demographic differences and the differences in public education funding between the two states.

These are admittedly extreme examples on the two ends of the spectrum, but my point stands. Public schools will have an IS preference everywhere. I believe you are putting the cart before the horse. Statistical differences in the applicant pool account for the statistical differences in public schools across the states, not the other way around. I present MS and CA as my evidence.

 

[KnightDoc]

Question: so I'm a virginia resident (raised for last 10 years), but I was born in Michigan, went to undergrad there, and have a lot of family (grandparents, cousins, aunts, uncles, etc) that live there. I also have a permanent address there. Could I be considered a resident of MI and VA?

Nope. You are going to only have one address on your AMCAS primary. Schools don't offer the ability to customize that on their secondaries, to prevent people from doing exactly what you want to do. You'll have to pick a state and use it for all schools.

 

[Obnoxious Dad]

Is this because people self-exclude, or because state schools have a mission and a mandate, so they have no choice but to play the hand they are dealt?

In other words, are lower statistic CA applicants really self-excluding, while MS applicants lack the self awareness to do so? Or, is CA just blessed with a abundance of high achieving students, while the University of Mississippi is required to be 100% IS, so it takes what it can get? I'm pretty sure it's the latter, given the demographic differences and the differences in public education funding between the two states.

These are admittedly extreme examples on the two ends of the spectrum, but my point stands. Public schools will have an IS preference everywhere. I believe you are putting the cart before the horse. Statistical differences in the applicant pool account for the statistical differences in public schools across the states, not the other way around. I present MS and CA as my evidence.

It's not "either or" it's both. State schools have a political, budgetary and, in some instances, a legal mandate to set aside a given percentage of its med school seats for state residents. This leads to some states being better for applicants than other states. Once again see the tables and wade through the data.

Potential applicants and their advisors see the data from these tables and the MSAR and make economic decisions about applying. If you're from Michigan and have a 3.6 GPA and a 508 on the MCAT, you apply to Central Michigan, MSU, Oakland and Wayne. If you're a potential applicant from California with the same stats, you apply to DO school or a PhD program.

 

[KnightDoc]

It's not "either or" it's both. State schools have a political, budgetary and, in some instances, a legal mandate to set aside a given percentage of its med school seats for state residents. This leads to some states being better for applicants than other states. Once again see the tables and wade through the data.

Potential applicants and their advisors see the data from these tables and the MSAR and make economic decisions about applying. If you're from Michigan and have a 3.6 GPA and a 508 on the MCAT, you apply to Central Michigan, MSU, Oakland and Wayne. If you're a potential applicant from California with the same stats, you apply to DO school or a PhD program.

Respectfully disagree. People who are applying tend not to exclude themselves from their IS public schools, regardless of their stats or state. CA applicants have high stats, so their schools have high stats. What basis do you have for the assertion that CA applicants with 3.6/508 self-exclude and don't apply MD? The median or average stats of those who are accepted? Sorry, but that's not a valid conclusion.

 

[Neuroscifan]

Respectfully disagree. People who are applying tend not to exclude themselves from their IS public schools, regardless of their stats or state. CA applicants have high stats, so their schools have high stats. What basis do you have for the assertion that CA applicants with 3.6/508 self-exclude and don't apply MD? The median or average stats of those who do apply? Sorry, but that's not a valid conclusion.

I would be very surprised if the average mcat scores and gpa of California medical school applicants had a higher mean than other states. There are more applicants there than anywhere else, most likely, so the competition for state schools is higher, which drives up the mean stats at the schools. People certainly self exclude because they get sound advice from advisors and don’t want to waste the time and money applying to a school they have no shot at getting into.

 

[mstpgrind]

Nope. You are going to only have one address on your AMCAS primary. Schools don't offer the ability to customize that on their secondaries, to prevent people from doing exactly what you want to do. You'll have to pick a state and use it for all schools.

hmm... so could I change my address on my primary when applying to different schools?

Say I put my address on AMCAS down as state A, then apply to all of state A's schools.
Then, I change my address to state B, then apply to all of state B's schools.

Basically, is it possible to change my address on my primary, or is all info locked in once I'm verified?

 

[chilly_md]

hmm... so could I change my address on my primary when applying to different schools?

Say I put my address on AMCAS down as state A, then apply to all of state A's schools.
Then, I change my address to state B, then apply to all of state B's schools.

Basically, is it possible to change my address on my primary, or is all info locked in once I'm verified?

All schools will get updated if you change your address. You can explain your ties in secondaries instead.

 

[Goro]

hmm... so could I change my address on my primary when applying to different schools?

Say I put my address on AMCAS down as state A, then apply to all of state A's schools.
Then, I change my address to state B, then apply to all of state B's schools.

Basically, is it possible to change my address on my primary, or is all info locked in once I'm verified?

Just because you change your dress to a different state does not mean you automatically become a resident of the state. In fact, some states have very rigorous requirements for residency.

 

[Obnoxious Dad]

Respectfully disagree. People who are applying tend not to exclude themselves from their IS public schools, regardless of their stats or state. CA applicants have high stats, so their schools have high stats. What basis do you have for the assertion that CA applicants with 3.6/508 self-exclude and don't apply MD? The median or average stats of those who do apply? Sorry, but that's not a valid conclusion.

Ok, I'll admit it. I posted too hastily because I was being called away. The MCAT number I should have cited was 505. The average MCAT score among Michigan applicants last year was 505.3. The California applicant average was 507.8. Why was California's average 2.5 higher? It was higher because many Californians made an economic judgment that applying with a lower score was a waste of their time and money while Michiganders knew with a 505 they would have a shot. It's classical economic behavior. Have you ever taken an economics or finance course?

 

[Obnoxious Dad]

I would be very surprised if the average mcat scores and gpa of California medical school applicants had a higher mean than other states. There are more applicants there than anywhere else, most likely, so the competition for state schools is higher, which drives up the mean stats at the schools. People certainly self exclude because they get sound advice from advisors and don’t want to waste the time and money applying to a school they have no shot at getting into.

Look at the data.

https://www.aamc.org/media/6071/download?attachment

 

[KnightDoc]

All schools will get updated if you change your address. You can explain your ties in secondaries instead.

This^^^^. You only have one permanent address at a time, and all schools see it, regardless of how many times you change it.

It's not that your state is locked in. It's that you can't control who sees it. They all do.

You're thinking of the application as a static form that is set in stone once it is transmitted. It isn't. It's on online dashboard run by AMCAS that all of the schools have access to. You are just one line item, along with every other applicant to the school. Only very limited changes are allowed. Contact information happens to be one of them.

Once you make a change, it is immediately transmitted to all of the schools through the dashboard. Presumably, schools have controls in place for people who apply IS in MI and have their address change to VA midway through the cycle. Most likely, they receive an alert when you make a change. You have to pick one state (per cycle) and go with it.

 

[KnightDoc]

Ok, I'll admit it. I posted too hastily because I was being called away. The MCAT number I should have cited was 505. The average MCAT score among Michigan applicants last year was 505.3. The California applicant average was 507.8. Why was California's average 2.5 higher? It was higher because many Californians made an economic judgment that applying with a lower score was a waste of their time and money while Michiganders knew with a 505 they would have a shot. It's classical economic behavior. Have you ever taken an economics or finance course?

Several. Have you ever taken a statistics course?

I stand by my assertion that CA has higher performing applicants, which is WHY, even though they have higher average MCATs, they also have a lower IS matriculation rate than MI (14.9% vs. 25.0%). You have no data to support the assertion that lower stat CA test takers self-exclude.

Your stats only show that CA applicants have higher test scores, while my stats show that CA schools have higher average matriculant scores (513.7 vs. 511.3) and lower IS acceptance rates. Both of the scores you cite for applicants are around 6 points below the scores for matriculants. The fact that the scores for CA are higher than MI does not show that CA test takers self-exclude at a higher cut-off than MI. It only shows they have higher scores.

The bit of data you are missing is the average score of ALL CA and MI test takers, not just of applicants and matriculants. Based on everything I've seen, including demographic, income , education and social spending levels of the two states, I have little doubt that score would also be around 2 points for CA than MI, blowing your economic judgment assertion right out of the water. Without that, though, you're just an Obnoxious Dad lecturing someone else's kid without facts to support what he is saying.

 

[Obnoxious Dad]

Several. Have you ever taken a statistics course?

I stand by my assertion that CA has higher performing applicants, which is WHY, even though they have higher average MCATs, they also have a lower IS matriculation rate than MI (14.9% vs. 25.0%). You have no data to support the assertion that lower stat CA test takers self-exclude.

Your stats only show that CA applicants have higher test scores, while my stats show that CA schools have higher average matriculant scores (513.7 vs. 511.3) and lower IS acceptance rates. Both of the scores you cite for applicants are around 6 points below the scores for matriculants. The fact that the scores for CA are higher than MI does not show that CA test takers self-exclude at a higher cut-off than MI. It only shows they have higher scores.

Yes, I have taken statistics. You can't get an MBA without it. Do you have an MBA? I do.

The statistics I cited do not show that Californians have higher scores on average because the statistics, again, do not show the performance on the exam by all test takers due to self-exclusion. The data cited are limited to applicants not all MCAT examinees.

California has higher performing applicants? California's public school system is one of the 10 worst in the country.

States with the Best School Systems

States with the Best School Systems

wallethub.com

It should also be noted that New Hampshire and Rhode Island have average MCAT scores among applicants that are higher than the California average. Do you think that all of those people from New England are smarter than people from California or do you think that people from those two states, without any publicly owned medical school seats, are self excluding?

 

[mstpgrind]

This^^^^. You only have one permanent address at a time, and all schools see it, regardless of how many times you change it.

It's not that your state is locked in. It's that you can't control who sees it. They all do.

You're thinking of the application as a static form that is set in stone once it is transmitted. It isn't. It's on online dashboard run by AMCAS that all of the schools have access to. You are just one line item, along with every other applicant to the school. Only very limited changes are allowed. Contact information happens to be one of them.

Once you make a change, it is immediately transmitted to all of the schools through the dashboard. Presumably, schools have controls in place for people who apply IS in MI and have their address change to VA midway through the cycle. Most likely, they receive an alert when you make a change. You have to pick one state (per cycle) and go with it.

Oh ok - so what state do you think would give me a better chance at an A?
I highly prefer VA but would apply as MI resident if it gives me a much better chance at an A.
From my perspective it seems like both states give me a roughly equal chance.

 

[KnightDoc]

Oh ok - so what state do you think would give me a better chance at an A?
LM is 73.
I highly prefer VA but would apply as MI resident if it gives me a much better chance at an A.
From my perspective it seems like both states give me a roughly equal chance.

Terrible way to look at it. I also had a choice to make. Choose based on where you'd rather go to school, rather than where you'll have a better chance of being accepted. If you turn out to be a strong applicant, you will likely have several acceptances to choose from. Conversely, if you are weak, better aggregate chances of success are not going to bail you out.

MI had a 35.8% acceptance rate last year, with a 25% IS matriculation rate. For VA, the numbers were 35.9% and 15.7%. Would you rather be an IS applicant in MI or VA? The 25% does you no good if you don't want to go to school in MI!

Also, be very careful before getting too carried away with these numbers. UMich is an outlier here, because it's the only T20 in either state. It certainly skews the MI IS numbers, but I'm not sure that would do you any good if you are not a UMich UG, where they definitely have a VERY strong preference in IIs and As.

Seriously, don't overthink this, which I realize might be very difficult for you! It's not going to make a big difference, if any, in your outcome.

Just be honest and use your actual address. UNLESS you have a very strong for one state over the other. Then pick that state, even if it's VA, because a preference in a state where you'd rather be will be of more value to you than a higher likelihood of success in a place you don't want to be. And again, that higher likelihood might not even be real after filtering out the UMich preference going to IS applicants from UMich.

 

[KnightDoc]

Yes, I have taken statistics. You can't get an MBA without it. Do you have an MBA? I do.

The statistics I cited do not show that Californians have higher scores on average because the statistics, again, do not show the performance on the exam by all test takers due to self-exclusion. The data cited are limited to applicants not all MCAT examinees.

California has higher performing applicants? California's public school system is one of the 10 worst in the country.

States with the Best School Systems

States with the Best School Systems

wallethub.com

It should also be noted that New Hampshire and Rhode Island have average MCAT scores among applicants that are higher than the California average. Do you think that all of those people from New England are smarter than people from California or do you think that people from those two states, without any publicly owned medical school seats, are self excluding?

No, I do not have a MBA, but perhaps that explains the economic utility filter you are viewing this through.

If you have taken statistics, then you know that garbage in = garbage out. If you don't know how many people from each state are taking the exam and then choosing not to apply, you know nothing about self exclusion, and are just making blind assertions.

You are just assuming that higher matriculant scores in CA cause people to self exclude, and are ignoring the very strong probability that higher overall test scores in CA are what causes the higher matriculant scores, as opposed to the other way around.

Apparently, the fact that people are free to apply all over the country means nothing to you (or that CA, in particular, enrolls more students OOS than IS -- 1558 compared to 1184 last year), so you conclude that higher scores in a given state can only mean that lower scoring applicants are screening themselves out, not that any state can actually have higher average scores than another.

I don't know what else to say. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

[Neuroscifan]

Oh ok - so what state do you think would give me a better chance at an A?
LM is 73.
I highly prefer VA but would apply as MI resident if it gives me a much better chance at an A.
From my perspective it seems like both states give me a roughly equal chance.

You need to look at the specific requirements for residence status at each school you would apply to. Many schools require you to have actually physically lived in their state for the last 12 months before applying in order to claim residency.

 

[Jce20]

No, I do not have a MBA, but perhaps that explains the economic utility filter you are viewing this through.

If you have taken statistics, then you know that garbage in = garbage out. If you don't know how many people from each state are taking the exam and then choosing not to apply, you know nothing about self exclusion, and are just making blind assertions.

You are just assuming that higher matriculant scores in CA cause people to self exclude, and are ignoring the very strong probability that higher overall test scores in CA are what causes the higher matriculant scores, as opposed to the other way around.

Apparently, the fact that people are free to apply all over the country means nothing to you, so you conclude that higher scores in a given state can only mean that lower scoring applicants are screening themselves out, not that any state can actually have higher average scores than another. I don't know what else to say. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

Dude, homie has an MBA. Clearly he is the superior scholar and mathemagician. He probably has an older brother that can also beat up your older brother.

 

[LizzyM]

Rather than arguing about people with marginal MCAT scores that may or may not apply (or maybe they just move to North Dakota), let's get back to the OPs question about why HIGH STATS applicants might end up as reapplicants.

Along with all the reasons given, I would add being weird or rude during the interview or having very poor communication skills.
Also, of course, a serious institutional action or criminal record.
Being an international applicant without a green card could also contribute to the likelihood of not being admitted anywhere.

 

[mstpgrind]

Terrible way to look at it. I also had a choice to make. Choose based on where you'd rather go to school, rather than where you'll have a better chance of being accepted. If you turn out to be a strong applicant, you will likely have several acceptances to choose from. Conversely, if you are weak, better aggregate chances of success are not going to bail you out.

MI had a 35.8% acceptance rate last year, with a 25% IS matriculation rate. For VA, the numbers were 35.9% and 15.7%. Would you rather be an IS applicant in MI or VA? The 25% does you no good if you don't want to go to school in MI!

Also, be very careful before getting too carried away with these numbers. UMich is an outlier here, because it's the only T20 in either state. It certainly skews the MI IS numbers, but I'm not sure that would do you any good if you are not a UMich UG, where they definitely have a VERY strong preference in IIs and As.

Seriously, don't overthink this, which I realize might be very difficult for you! It's not going to make a big difference, if any, in your outcome.

Just be honest and use your actual address. UNLESS you have a very strong for one state over the other. Then pick that state, even if it's VA, because a preference in a state where you'd rather be will be of more value to you than a higher likelihood of success in a place you don't want to be. And again, that higher likelihood might not even be real after filtering out the UMich preference going to IS applicants from UMich.

I am at UMich UG.

But yeah I agree with your advice, I’ll just put down VA.
It’s just scary because I have a close friend (totally normal dude as far as I can tell, did practice interviews with him) who had a 3.9/519 and had 4 IIs and didn’t get in anywhere last cycle. So I’m really trying to maximize my chances any way I can.

It’s crazy because he has a way higher LM than me and we have very similar interests and personalities so I don’t want to end up the same way he did. This is part of the reason I’m applying to 60 schools. I know a lot of people say that I won’t have time to write quality secondaries but I can dedicate 50 hours a week just to secondaries (I’m stopping all other commitments) just to increase my chances as much as possible.

 

[chilly_md]

I am at UMich UG.

But yeah I agree with your advice, I’ll just put down VA.
It’s just scary because I have a close friend (totally normal dude as far as I can tell, did practice interviews with him) who had a 3.9/519 and had 4 IIs and didn’t get in anywhere last cycle. So I’m really trying to maximize my chances any way I can.

It’s crazy because he has a way higher LM than me and we have very similar interests and personalities so I don’t want to end up the same way he did. This is part of the reason I’m applying to 60 schools. I know a lot of people say that I won’t have time to write quality secondaries but I can dedicate 50 hours a week just to secondaries (I’m stopping all other commitments) just to increase my chances as much as possible.

You likely have many donations on your list if you are applying to 60 schools. And having extra free time does not mean you will write quality secondaries.

 

[mstpgrind]

You likely have many donations on your list if you are applying to 60 schools. And having extra free time does not mean you will write quality secondaries.

That’s definitely fair. I’ll focus on the secondaries that I care about more (IS/target schools) and then hit the donation type low yield schools.

I know it’ll cost a lot of money but I have around 15k extra from my software internship that I can contribute toward med school apps, and I’d rather have donations than not get an A (I want to err on the side of applying to too many schools, rather than too little schools if that makes sense).

 

[KnightDoc]

I am at UMich UG.

But yeah I agree with your advice, I’ll just put down VA.
It’s just scary because I have a close friend (totally normal dude as far as I can tell, did practice interviews with him) who had a 3.9/519 and had 4 IIs and didn’t get in anywhere last cycle. So I’m really trying to maximize my chances any way I can.

It’s crazy because he has a way higher LM than me and we have very similar interests and personalities so I don’t want to end up the same way he did. This is part of the reason I’m applying to 60 schools. I know a lot of people say that I won’t have time to write quality secondaries but I can dedicate 50 hours a week just to secondaries (I’m stopping all other commitments) just to increase my chances as much as possible.

Do what you feel you have to do, but in my observation of many people over the past few cycles, you are torturing yourself needlessly. The people like you who have great applications end up with 15-20+ IIs, which is overkill.

Maybe you will write quality secondaries, maybe not. But, if you are successful with 60 applications, you would have been successful with 30. There really is a point of diminishing returns, and you really will be screened out, due to stats or otherwise, at most of the schools you are adding beyond 25-30, which really is the outer limit of a reasonable number of "fit" schools. If you need 60 applications to receive a tiny handful of IIs, you are likely to have problems that your additional 30 applications will be unlikely to cure. It is also very likely you would have received those IIs anyway.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

michigan is a better state than Virginia for med school admissions

UVA and Umich are a wash as they take a ton of OOS

But mich has Wayne, CMU, MSUCHM

VA has VCU, EVMS

Mich much more is friendly

 

[Goro]

That’s definitely fair. I’ll focus on the secondaries that I care about more (IS/target schools) and then hit the donation type low yield schools.

I know it’ll cost a lot of money but I have around 15k extra from my software internship that I can contribute toward med school apps, and I’d rather have donations than not get an A (I want to err on the side of applying to too many schools, rather than too little schools if that makes sense).

The schools don't need the money; take your mom out for Mother's Day instead.

You should have a strategic list. Invest in MSAR Online and target schools where your stats are at or above thier 10th-25th %iles. The higher up the pole you want to climb, the more slippery it gets.

And when dealing with OOS public schools, pay VERY careful attention to the IS/OOS ratios. Note: U VM is a school that should be on everybody's list.

 

[LizzyM]

Don't overlook the fact that MSTP is going to be looking for research chops but also want to see that you have some experience with clinical settings and are comfortable talking with patients..