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For those applying to MD/MBA programs, what are your reason? What do you hope to do with your degree in the future?
in a few words, this is my motivation for md/mba. i may or may not do a residency--will decide when the time comes. depends on what the options are immediately after med school. but that is another perk of md/mba, it does provide options. and whether you take the options or not, its better to have them than not. many dual degrees i suspect do provide this option of whether or not to do a residency, as you have that other skill set that allows you to pursue other ventures if you want to. the question is, will the MD offer you substantially higher pay than the other degree alone--is it worth getting the MD, basically. this is a subject of recurring debate in the md/mba forum.Elastase said:make bigger changes as a physician leader
Shredder said:i want to be involved in medicine but minimize or eliminate patient contact, and make tons of money while also improving medicine from the business side.
bobito said:Reason 2: The only compelling reason to get an MD is patient contact.
ASDIC said:In order to provide the cost-effective medical care of tommorrow, physicians need to understand the business dynamics of medicine. As medicine today becomes more consolidated, there is a need for leadership.
Medicine is unfortunately moving from a human necessity to a commodity - for people who can afford it rather than need it.
I am doing my MD/MBA to gain some business acumen to provide effective medical services in a cost controlled business environment. I am taking courses such as Healthcare Management and Health Finance to better understand the commercialized nature of today's medicine.
BrettBatchelor said:Where would medicine be without radiologists and pathologists?
bobito said:haha This is quite possibly the greatest bit of political speak I've ever read.
You want to make medicine cheaper.
I'm interested in Md/MBA programs for much the same reason. Although I'm mostly interested in drug development and the developing world.
it comes down to this: ceteris paribus, what is more valuable, an MD or 4 years of work experience in some low end, entry level position working among pretty average peers vs intelligent medical school classmates. thus for anyone with an interest in business and medicine i highly advocate md/mba as it seems like a steal to me. compare this, a year for an MBA or a year going to africa to administer shots. the point im trying to make is that a year is nothing, something premeds might use to devote to any number of things, few of which can compare to the long term and professional value of an MBA.bobito said:Point of advice. You would probably be better served without the MD.
Reason 1: is opportunity cost. You're losing significant salary earning years to go through an MD program for 4+ years. If you compound the interest that could be made on these savings rather than the likely debts caused by med school, over the long term (greater than 20-30 years) These differences will be very significant.
Reason 2: The only compelling reason to get an MD is patient contact.
Right out of college you could get a Healthcare consulting job at some place like Stockamp...make about 40k for 2 yrs or so prior to promotion. Then go back get an MBA and pursue your management interests or you could go into investment banking if you really want money (You'll have more money than you have time to spend it) and then go get an MBA, and pursue your health interests.
bobito said:Point of advice. You would probably be better served without the MD.
Reason 1: is opportunity cost. You're losing significant salary earning years to go through an MD program for 4+ years. If you compound the interest that could be made on these savings rather than the likely debts caused by med school, over the long term (greater than 20-30 years) These differences will be very significant.
Reason 2: The only compelling reason to get an MD is patient contact.
Right out of college you could get a Healthcare consulting job at some place like Stockamp...make about 40k for 2 yrs or so prior to promotion. Then go back get an MBA and pursue your management interests or you could go into investment banking if you really want money (You'll have more money than you have time to spend it) and then go get an MBA, and pursue your health interests.
hey, im a young undergrad, little experience ill readily admit. i do plan to attend one of the top b schools and they are all i have applied to for med schools (it was my only criterion pretty much), and a big reason for that is connections and meeting potential partners, visionaries and such. i would say my long term interests lie primarily in business, but i also think medicine is an interesting area and ive done well in prerequisite courses and mcat. i dont see why ppl are so opposed, im pretty legitimate i think. so what if i take away a spot from a premed who wants to see patients and do research; an md/mba is poised to do more for medicine anyway IMO, and its a competitive process to get admitted, winners will be winners. the opportunity cost of seeing patients is high when you reach a certain level--im an economist and i think in those terms. just like in business when youre trump, you cannot afford to have chats with all of your employees or even customers on a regular basis. same deal. but trump still had to learn about his business, real estate, first. similarly with medicine. this is just my reasoning but im always up for discussion, with the hope that personal feelings and emotions dont get involved as that ruins objectivityaamartin81 said:Shredder,
I'm curious as to whether you have any experience in the business world, or are you an undergraduate? You seem to have well developed thoughts on what a MBA offers in the professional world, but how much are these ideas based on assumptions you have made? There are quite a few recent studies which offer quite a dastic difference in the value of the degree. What they state, however, is that the true value lies in the school where you complete the degree (I.e. the value is derived from the connections you make). I wonder whether an of the MD/MBA programs will offer the same type of connections to be found at the Harvard's, Wharton's, etc... Though I have done little research into the specific programs, some questions I would ask would be the differences in obtaining the background knowledge (I.e. Corporate Finance, Statement Analysis, Portofolio Mgmt, Accounting, etc...) in an undergraduate setting (less expensive/time consuming) vs a combined program.
If geared towards the management of a group of physician's, there is little more that you will need than basic business principles (I.e. no need to understand the intricacies of arbitrage opportunities in international investments based on currency fluctuations). As for running a hospital/becoming part of a biomedical venture capital fund, the two years you spend in the MBA program will pale in comparison to what you learn in the first two weeks on the job. Furthermore, national healthcare regulations change quickly and any introduction to their effects on the business of management will likely be brief.
I understand that you have likely put much effort into researching these programs and as such have valid answers to the concerns I have addressed above. I am curious to hear them.
Adam
Shredder said:hey, im a young undergrad, little experience ill readily admit. i do plan to attend one of the top b schools and they are all i have applied to for med schools (it was my only criterion pretty much), and a big reason for that is connections and meeting potential partners, visionaries and such. i would say my long term interests lie primarily in business, but i also think medicine is an interesting area and ive done well in prerequisite courses and mcat. i dont see why ppl are so opposed, im pretty legitimate i think. so what if i take away a spot from a premed who wants to see patients and do research; an md/mba is poised to do more for medicine anyway IMO, and its a competitive process to get admitted, winners will be winners. the opportunity cost of seeing patients is high when you reach a certain level--im an economist and i think in those terms. just like in business when youre trump, you cannot afford to have chats with all of your employees or even customers on a regular basis. same deal. but trump still had to learn about his business, real estate, first. similarly with medicine. this is just my reasoning but im always up for discussion, with the hope that personal feelings and emotions dont get involved as that ruins objectivity
so i see it as a free MBA without having to work beforehand, with an MD on the side which might (or might not) be used to improve the state of healthcare. if one wants to wheel and deal in corporate america, undergrad courses will not open any doors or close deals. you might learn more in the first two weeks of a hotshot job, but how to land that job without proper credentials or connections? in fact undergrad courses arent even necessary, one could learn it all from books, who needs teachers? but what kind of potential client or partner wants to see a list of completed books and self teaching? in fact, one could learn medicine on ones own too, but it hardly needs mentioning that that would not fly in the real world
would you dispute that an MBA is more valuable than a year administering shots in africa? i dont know the exact value of an MBA, but i know that letters after ones name and credentials from certain schools impress people. and i dont mean people at parties, i mean professionally. its hard to place a numerical value on that, its intangible. thoughts?
as for me, my top choices where i interviewed are dartmouth, penn, and columbia, as they would serve these functions well. no word from northwestern or cornell, im growing skeptical. michigan waitlisted, chicago rejected
For dual degree students, the work rule is often waived. They also count 3rd year as work often times.little_late_MD said:Just as an FYI, most of the "top" business schools you are applying to do not accept many students without significant work experience. As I'm sure you know, you must be accepted to both the Medical School and the Business School for dual degree programs.
Good luck to you.
Shredder said:it comes down to this: ceteris paribus, what is more valuable, an MD or 4 years of work experience in some low end, entry level position working among pretty average peers vs intelligent medical school classmates. thus for anyone with an interest in business and medicine i highly advocate md/mba as it seems like a steal to me. compare this, a year for an MBA or a year going to africa to administer shots. the point im trying to make is that a year is nothing, something premeds might use to devote to any number of things, few of which can compare to the long term and professional value of an MBA.
so the central question restated: MD or 4 years working in some run of the mill job, which is more valuable. 40k and groveling for promotions is demeaning
besides, theres no point to having more money than time to spend it. and the only real way to make money is not to be on a payroll
Shredder said:so the central question restated: MD or 4 years working in some run of the mill job, which is more valuable. 40k and groveling for promotions is demeaning
BrettBatchelor said:For dual degree students, the work rule is often waived. They also count 3rd year as work often times.
Look through the MD/MBA forum at the top. I have links to programs. It should be listed there.little_late_MD said:Really? Do you happen to remember where you got this information, because it would be a major burden off my shoulders if it where true. I visited Columbia, Penn, and Harvard, and all three said that admissions standards were the same for dual degree students as for MBA students.
Shredder said:i wont be dissuaded, its futile trying. im not sure why everyone tries their hardest to do so, as i never in fact asked for any pointers here. a few examples of role models below. the guys have done a lot for medicine, as id like to, and make money while im at it. is that so wrong?
http://www.forbes.com/lists/2005/54/VI4N.html
http://www.forbes.com/finance/lists...ListType=Person&uniqueId=XA34&datatype=Person
granted, they dont in fact have MBAs. but md/mba wasnt common until recent years, and can it really hurt? and not all tycoons in the healthcare industry have MDs. can that hurt? you consider those two things then reformulate arguments for why i should not pursue md/mba. if one has the credentials to obtain a top notch md/mba, i see it as the safest and most highly probable way to reach a billion dollars. sincerely. and im open to hearing refutations. so to clear things up, im not shooting for a 100k job. nor 500, nor some number of millions. truly, i want one billion dollars, and whether i reach it or not, im going to try.
to answer the OP summarily, and regardless of what people think, i plan to reach a 9 figure net worth, and i might do it through medicine somehow. medicine alone simply does not offer that kind of reward, business is a must to hit it big. ill ask this: what advice would you have given the google guys before they decided to attend grad school for computer science? drop the idea and work for merrill lynch for a nice fat 80k income, the real way to make money and change the world?
Shredder said:i wont be dissuaded, its futile trying. im not sure why everyone tries their hardest to do so, as i never in fact asked for any pointers here. a few examples of role models below. the guys have done a lot for medicine, as id like to, and make money while im at it. is that so wrong?
http://www.forbes.com/lists/2005/54/VI4N.html
http://www.forbes.com/finance/lists...ListType=Person&uniqueId=XA34&datatype=Person
granted, they dont in fact have MBAs. but md/mba wasnt common until recent years, and can it really hurt? and not all tycoons in the healthcare industry have MDs. can that hurt? you consider those two things then reformulate arguments for why i should not pursue md/mba.
Shredder said:if one has the credentials to obtain a top notch md/mba, i see it as the safest and most highly probable way to reach a billion dollars. sincerely. and im open to hearing refutations.
Shredder said:to answer the OP summarily, and regardless of what people think, i plan to reach a 9 figure net worth, and i might do it through medicine somehow. medicine alone simply does not offer that kind of reward, business is a must to hit it big. ill ask this: what advice would you have given the google guys before they decided to attend grad school for computer science? drop the idea and work for merrill lynch for a nice fat 80k income, the real way to make money and change the world?