Ranking D.O. Schools - Should Your School Be #1?

ADRIANSHOE · Mar 18, 2001

you know people in tears over med school comments? is there a psychologist in the house? your family/school??????????
your school is NOT your family, the stockholm syndrome aside!!!!!!if it is family then what void are you trying to fill?

this is the crux of the whole discussion.... on the one hand:
the blind adherence to a school right or wrong, keep the laundry folded and in the drawer, keep the skeletons in the closet.
stay silent to outsiders who ask your opinions.

This is juxtaposed by people who DONT think the school is the most important issue. People who think the STUDENT is the most important issue.
People who think the school should be accountable.
people who believe that not only is personal responsibility important but institutional integrity is also. (unlike the yesfolk evidently)
People who respect their future colleagues enough to tell the truth as they see it.
people who would rather have a future colleague attend a different alma mater than stay silent when asked for an honest opinion.
Blind loyalty is not the ideal of patriots but of car bombers, please get help!!!!

reddog · Mar 18, 2001

That's real cool Adrianshoe. Real cool. I'm not even going to respond to your comments because someone else will defend me proving that I am not alone in my passion for this school. If that makes me sick, well, check me in to the hospital and call the shrink!

[This message has been edited by reddog (edited 03-18-2001).]

Kent Ray · Mar 18, 2001

Reddog,
I don't take offence to your comments. I know what it is like to have a feeling of loyalty to your school. Believe it or not I am very interested in the future of DMU. Almost every day I check the "site update" page to see what is going on.
Let me tell you something. I believe you are a student and therefore you don't know all their is to know about your clinical years. Yes you can go anywhere to do your clinicals. I was not able to do that because I couldn't afford to move every month or two. If you do a month or two at mayo or Cleveland clinic that is all they will allow you to do. You can't normally spend more than two months at major places like that unless your school is affiliated with them. I do want to say that you have the right idea if you can work it out. Going to all University based hospitals is a great way to receive an excellent education.
Let me comment on your statement about how DMU would only be affiliated with hospitals of high standards. I have been to several hospitals in Ohio and Michigan. Let me tell you that the standard of education is low. Not for just a few hospitals but almost all. There is only one reason for this. The Attendings who are supposed to be teaching you are private. This means the time that they have to spend with you comes right out of their own pocket. They are not paid! You can argue that you should have the drive to be a self educator. This kind of education doesn't work. The people that do not realize this and continue in programs of this sort are the lazy ones. These are the people who seem to be unaware, or they just rather go through a residency that doesn't demand anything from you. I can give example of several hospitals in Ohio and Michigan. For example St. Vincents, in Toledo has a general internal medicine program. These residents are seeing up to 30 patients per day on the FLOOR! They tell me that they don't have teaching rounds, none of the attendings teach, and they get no didactics. So if you are a student on this service you will not learn more than how to do an H&P. If you are a resident you not only miss out on the knowledge of your attendings you don't have time to read.
Now, you said something about DMU being well respected and how it is a 103 year old school that is well established. Please, don't say things like that because it sounds like you are foolish. DMU has no reputation outside of Des Moines. If you ask around in Des Moines no one knows it is there. If you ask alumni they are mostly bitter.
It is my hope that prospective students will read this post and consider other options before attending DMU. I have written too many letters to count, and talked to people @ DMU, AOA, Iowa Osteopathic Association. I have have had meetings with several of the board members of DMU. Let me tell you this will not change until the school realizes that their attendance if falling.
I know this sucks to hear but you will realize it sooner or later.

Kent Ray, D.O.

Kent Ray · Mar 18, 2001

Hankhill,
Reddog was correct. You can do many of your rotations at the places he mentioned and others. The thing is you can normally only do one or two rotations per year at these places and you will be the last on the totem pole. If any of the students who are affiliated want the spot then you won't get it. Normally you don't have much of a problem. Some places want up to 500.00 to rotate in their institution so you have to do some research. Many of these places will have housing but many others do not so it is your responsibility to find housing every other month.
I am sorry Reddog but I can't help but comment on the statement you made "Our (DMU students & or DMU) reputation proceeds us". Who have you been talking to! That sounds so silly. These places know nothing about DMU and it is certainly not well respected. You gain respect by the quality of research at your program and the quality of education at affiliated hospitals. I don't know of any clinical research that DMU is doing (yes I know that they do some basic science research).
And I can tell you that they are almost entirely hands off in third and fourth years.

ADRIANSHOE · Mar 18, 2001

Originally posted by reddog:
That's real cool Adrianshoe. Real cool. I'm not even going to respond to your comments because someone else will defend me proving that I am not alone in my passion for this school. If that makes me sick, well, check me in to the hospital and call the shrink!

[This message has been edited by reddog (edited 03-18-2001).]•

ooh i know you arent alone in your passion for your school...that would be like a nazi or a skinhead being alone...people like you NEVER travel alone.

reed0104 · Mar 18, 2001

Reddog,

Can you help us 1st and 2nd yr. DMU Students with a plan to set up our rotations? I would appreciate an idea of how to get started on applying independantly for rotations.

Thanks in advance,

a 1st yr.

hankhill · Mar 19, 2001

Posted by Reddog:Regarding rotations at DMU during your third and fourth years one would be best to speak with a clinical coordinator at the school. I will shed some light on the issue though. The school sets up a four month core hospital rotation and a two month family medicine rotation, the rest of the year is up to you. To be a core hospital, it must meet high standards. Every hospital is required to give 1 month of surgery and one month of internal medicine. The remaining two months vary from hospital to hospital. I know the one I'm going to gives, in addition to the surg. and IM, 2wks each of path, radiology, anesthesia, & ER. Within those remaing next six months after your core hospital and clinic, you are required to do 4wks OB/GYN, 4wks PEDS, 4 wks PSYC, and 4 wks of either: OB/GYN, Internal Med, Emergency Med, OMM, Peds, Psyc,Family Practice. This all totals 10 months. The
remaining two months may be spent in any specialty from anesthesia to pediactric
oncology. Your choice. The core hospital and family medicine rotation that the school sets up is really your choice also.

Reply: Thanks for responding reddog. I have really learned a lot from reading your post and Kent?s. I would like to 2nd reed?s above question. Is there anything that you or Kent could recommend for us (1st year students) to be doing to prepare for setting up these rotations?

Posted by Reddog:It's the people that sit back on their laurels their whole second
year and then scramble to find any rotation they can before the deadline that I consider lazy.

Reply: I would likely agree with you on that. I am worried that I should be getting
this all together as we speak and I am only in my first year.

Posted by Reddog:I started making contacts at the begining of the year and then began confirming and reserving my spots as soon as the school gave us the green light.

Reply: When did they give you the green light? I heard someone say at a dean?s
call that some of the rotations

ericr · Mar 21, 2001

The Osteopathic Oath

(American Osteopathic Association)

I do hereby affirm my loyalty to the profession I am about to enter. I will be mindful always of my great responsibility to preserve the health and the life of my patients, to retain their confidence and respect both as a physician and a friend who will guard their secrets with scrupulous honor and fidelity, to perform faithfully my professional duties, to employ only those recognized methods of treatment consistent with good judgment and with my skill and ability, keeping in mind always nature's laws and the body's inherent capacity for recovery.
I will be ever vigilant in aiding in the general welfare of the community , sustaining its laws and institutions, not engaging in those practices which will in any way bring shame or discredit upon myself or my profession. I will give no drugs for deadly purposes to any person, though it may be asked of me.
I will endeavor to work in accord with my colleagues in a spirit of progressive cooperation and never by word or by act cast imputations upon them or their rightful practices.
I will look with respect and esteem upon all those who have taught me my art. To my college I will be loyal and strive always for its best interests and for the interests of the students who will come after me. I will be ever alert to further the application of basic biologic truths to the healing arts and to develop the principles of osteopathy which were first enunciated by Andrew Taylor Still.

(Enough said!!)

------------------
Eric Robinson

hankhill · Mar 21, 2001

Can anyone tell me why my last post was cut off? It was there yesterday, but now part of it is missing.

hankhill

[This message has been edited by hankhill (edited March 21, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by hankhill (edited April 03, 2001).]

1898 · Mar 21, 2001

Originally posted by reddog:
Here are some of the places that our second year students will be rotating at next year: Johns Hopkins, Mayo Clinic, Brigham and Womens, UCLA, University of Washinton, University of Texas medical system, MT Clemmons, St. Vincents-Toledo, University of Miami, Baylor University, Meninger Clinic, Albert Einstein, Cooke County Chicago, .•

Red Dog,
Are you saying that the above hospitals are allowing 3rd year DMU students to do their required/set up on your own OB/GYN, Peds, Psych, and IM? Looking at their web sites, nearly every medical school will allow students from other schools to do a clerkship. The problem I see is that they will NOT allow 3rd year students. Several of the schools you listed, (specifically Mayo, Harvard (B&W), Baylor, Washington) state this specifically on their web site.

Check out:
http://www.siumed.edu/lib/ref/aamc.html
They have links to every medical school, usually specifically to the page for applying for visiting clerkship. These schools do NOT want to teach 3rd years the basic clinical clerkships. They want 4th year, (or 3rd years who have COMPLETED all of their basic clerkships). Of particular interest: check out Brown and Vanderbilt, they will only take 4th years from MD schools!

Are your classmates really doing their initial OB or Peds rotation at the above hospitals? Do these hospitals post a policy of no 3rd years, but really don't abide by it? Does DMU work out special arrangements with these top notch schools to allow students to rotate?

---

ADRIANSHOE · Mar 21, 2001

Originally posted by ericr:
The Osteopathic Oath

(American Osteopathic Association)

I do hereby affirm my loyalty to the profession I am about to enter. I will be mindful always of my great responsibility to preserve the health and the life of my patients, to retain their confidence and respect both as a physician and a friend who will guard their secrets with scrupulous honor and fidelity, to perform faithfully my professional duties, to employ only those recognized methods of treatment consistent with good judgment and with my skill and ability, keeping in mind always nature's laws and the body's inherent capacity for recovery.
I will be ever vigilant in aiding in the general welfare of the community , sustaining its laws and institutions, not engaging in those practices which will in any way bring shame or discredit upon myself or my profession. I will give no drugs for deadly purposes to any person, though it may be asked of me.
I will endeavor to work in accord with my colleagues in a spirit of progressive cooperation and never by word or by act cast imputations upon them or their rightful practices.
I will look with respect and esteem upon all those who have taught me my art. To my college I will be loyal and strive always for its best interests and for the interests of the students who will come after me. I will be ever alert to further the application of basic biologic truths to the healing arts and to develop the principles of osteopathy which were first enunciated by Andrew Taylor Still.

(Enough said!!)

•

actually this inst enough said: hank is claiming that DMU ISNT teaching him to a level of standards he wishes. SO HE HAS NO NEED TO BE LOYAL TO THEM SINCE IN HIS MIND THEY...I REPEAT THEY broke faith with him.
you wont get that though because you are a sheep braying out moldy oaths instead of thinking about things logically.

ADRIANSHOE · Mar 21, 2001

Originally posted by ADRIANSHOE:
actually this inst enough said: hank is claiming that DMU ISNT teaching him to a level of standards he wishes. SO HE HAS NO NEED TO BE LOYAL TO THEM SINCE IN HIS MIND THEY...I REPEAT THEY broke faith with him.
besides that, by HONESTLY criticizing their flaws instead of sticking his head in the sand HE is striving to make improvements.
you'll miss thisbecause you are a sheep braying out moldy oaths instead of thinking about things logically.•

Kent Ray · Mar 21, 2001

ericr,
You know I never had to recite the Osteopathic Oath! My entering class didn't have a white cote ceremony. Anyway, I would suggest you listen to the comments on this board with more of an open mind. I don't waste time on here to bash DMU. I want people to realize that many of the Osteopathic schools are just not fulfilling the basic requirements that make up a medical education.

Rusty · Mar 21, 2001

Originally posted by SRR:
MUON,

I believe that student communication with our dean (Dr. Teitelbaum) has been excellent. He was highly respected at MSU, and I've read messages from students on this website telling us (at DMU) how lucky we are to have him here.

•

The statement that Dr. Teitelbaum was "highly respected" at MSU is in my opinion highly debatable. I have had numerous experiences with Dr. Teitelbaum both inside and outside of the classroom and it is my belief that he was more interested in his own status than that of the students at MSU. The "luck" that DMU inherited remains to be seen, but time will tell if he turns out to be a better Dean than I predict he will be.

tiffsatt · Mar 21, 2001

Ok Hankhill and Kidterrific,

About the language thing...ya see, Kidt here is from Detroit (as I am) and foul language is as common here as, oh I don't know...adjectives. It is not our fault that profanity runs amuck here in Detroit. But, to be quite honest, I like it. I am kind of kidding guys (or girls, don't mean to be sexist), but once you live in Detroit you learn a whole different way of speaking!

Kent Ray,

I am currently attending the University of Detroit Mercy, so I am right down the street from you (I saw that you are from Ferndale). I was wondering where you were practicing and what? About the OMM thing in Michigan, I can't say for what the hospitals are like, but I know many physicians who use OMM religiously in my small hometown south of Detroit. Don't know if that means anything to you.

Tiff

muonwhiz · Mar 21, 2001

To Kent Ray (or others who may know)--
I heard that DMU has a very nice white coat ceremony for the entering classes sometime during orientation. I heard about this in passing when I visited the school. Are you saying that this information is in error?

lightning · Mar 26, 2001

Hank Hill

As you have done so well here in this post, you have the right to voice your opinions and so do I. Don't look at what I said as a personal attack, it wasn' meant that way. What I am saying is that it seems to me that no matter what happens to you here at DMU positive or negative, you will never be satisfied. This will carry on to your clinical years, residency, practice, and so on. Your legacy will be not only to discourage good students from coming to this, in my opinion, excellent institution. Your opinions will effect your patients and their opinions of Osteopathic Medicine. This will have nothing but a negative effect on our profession. It is for this reason that I said I would feel better with MD behind your name. I have the utmost respect for our MD counterparts. I personally feel in no way superior to either MD medical students or MD physicians. I feel that what we learn here at DMU in OMM gives us an edge and another tool to help patients. In regards to answering your previous posts, I told myself I would not post on this topic after my last post. As to whether or not I am an OMM fellow--don't you think that your even asking is a little unfair seeing as how you are unwilling to reveal yourself to this post and to your classmates here at DMU. You give out your real full name, I will do the same. Even if I was an OMM fellow, I am still entitled to my opinon here as a DMU student and future member of the Osteopathic profession. I am the type of person that if I was a fellow, I would not let my personal feelings about your opinions effect how I treated you as a person or as student.

My final response to this subject is that I disagree with what you are doing on this post. It hurts our school because you discourage good students from coming here. It hurts our profession because not only are pre Osteopathic students reading this, but also pre Allopaths, physicians and so on. In addition assessment is too one sided. You have the right to your opinion, but it is definitly in the minority. You are not going about changing things here in the correct manner--in my opinion. No our school is not perfect, no our profession is not perfect, no I am not perfect, all of these things including myself could be better. I am activly working to better my school, my future profession, and myself.

Mike

tiffsatt · Mar 26, 2001

Hey guys,

Way back 7 years ago when this thread was started, it was about the US News and World Report. I was wondering if anyone could tell me where I could find it, if it lists DO schools along with the MD!?
Thanks

Homer S · Mar 26, 2001

Originally posted by lightning:
Hank Hill

As you have done so well here in this post, you have the right to voice your opinions and so do I. Don't look at what I said as a personal attack, it wasn' meant that way. What I am saying is that it seems to me that no matter what happens to you here at DMU positive or negative, you will never be satisfied. This will carry on to your clinical years, residency, practice, and so on. Your legacy will be not only to discourage good students from coming to this, in my opinion, excellent institution. Your opinions will effect your patients and their opinions of Osteopathic Medicine. This will have nothing but a negative effect on our profession. It is for this reason that I said I would feel better with MD behind your name. I have the utmost respect for our MD counterparts. I personally feel in no way superior to either MD medical students or MD physicians. I feel that what we learn here at DMU in OMM gives us an edge and another tool to help patients.

To Lightning:

By reading your post it looks to me as though you have no respect for Hank Hill or MD's. I agree that OMM gives us a tool to help patients but it should not be viewed as making us superior. I disagree that criticizing the school and curiculum is a bad thing. Hank Hill does offer some compelling arguments and not all his posts are negative.

Your statement that you would rather he be an MD instead of a DO based solely on his comments here would imply to me that you are very shortsighted and judgmental. I hope you are not a fellow because to date I have been impressed with our OMM instructors and the curiculum and look forward to learning techniques hands on.

Homer

[This message has been edited by Homer S (edited March 26, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Homer S (edited March 26, 2001).]

Rusty · Mar 26, 2001

Originally posted by tiffsatt:
Hey guys,

Way back 7 years ago when this thread was started, it was about the US News and World Report. I was wondering if anyone could tell me where I could find it, if it lists DO schools along with the MD!?
Thanks•

This thread was intended to spur discussion regarding the top osteopathic medical schools and why they deserve to be referred to as top schools. The US News and World Report rankings are of questionable relevance.

Rusty · Mar 26, 2001

I appreciate Hankhill's comments on this thread. Some posts have argued that because his opinions may represent a minority of students that they are less valid. This is a dangerous philosophy bordering on censorship. Hankhill has views which differ from some and agree with others. Just because opinions are not popular does not make them any less valid or worthy of publication.

hankhill · Mar 26, 2001

Posted by lightning (Mike):As you have done so well here in this post, you have the right
to voice your opinions and so do I. Don't look at what I said as a personal attack, it wasn'meant that way.

Reply: Actually what you said is, ?I know I would feel better with MD behind your name.? That sounds like an insult to me. If I told you that I would feel better with MD behind your name, would you take that as an insult? I think that most osteopathic students and physicians would.

Posted by lightning:What I am saying is that it seems to me that no matter what happens to you here at DMU positive or negative, you will never be satisfied.

Reply: I am satisfied with parts of DMU, but they are few and far between.

Posted by lightning (Mike):This will carry on to your clinical years, residency, practice, and so on. Your legacy will be not only to discourage good students from coming to this, in my opinion, excellent institution.

Reply: I could easily reverse what you just said. This will carry on to your (lightning?s)clinical years, residency, practice, and so on. Your legacy will be to discourage good students from choosing NOT to attend this, in my opinion, less than excellent institution. Why can?t you argue with the issues that I have posted? If DMU is such a great school then you should be able to defend each of the problems which I have posted. Instead, you attack me, and then go way off to left field and talk about my ?legacy?.

Posted by lightning (Mike):Your opinions will effect your patients and their opinions of Osteopathic Medicine. This will have nothing but a negative effect on our profession. It is for this reason that I said I would feel better with MD behind your name.

Reply: Really? How? What, if anything, have I posted on this board that degrades
osteopathic medicine as a whole? I have argued that one of its schools ranks very poorly compared to the others (all osteopathic of course). Must we believe that all osteopathic schools are equal?

Posted by lightning (Mike):I have the utmost respect for our MD counterparts. I personally feel in no way superior to either MD medical students or MD physicians. I feel
that what we learn here at DMU in OMM gives us an edge and another tool to help
patients.

Reply: If you have ?the utmost respect for our MD counterparts,? why would you wish
for them to have a student who you claim would ?have nothing but a negative effect? on
your profession? It can?t go both ways.

Posted by lightning (Mike): In regards to answering your previous posts, I told myself I would not post on this topic after my last post. As to whether or not I am an OMM
fellow--don't you think that your even asking is a little unfair seeing as how you are unwilling to reveal yourself to this post and to your classmates here at DMU.

Reply: I just wanted to know if you would share the answer. That is why I phrased the question the way that I did. Specifically, I asked ?I would like to know one thing before I reply to you. Are you an OMM fellow also? You obviously don't have to answer that (I am damn sure not going to give my name out on this forum), but I would like to know the answer if you are willing to share.? I respect your desire to stay anonymous and hope that you will do so.

Posted by lightning (Mike): You give out your real full name, I will do the same.

Reply: No thanks!

Posted by lightning (Mike):Even if I was an OMM fellow, I am still entitled to my opinon
here as a DMU student and future member of the Osteopathic profession.

Reply: If a fellow or anyone else were to tell me that they would feel better with ?MD
behind my name,? I would view this as a direct insult. I don?t think that it is possible to view it any other way. I have definitely tried, but as of now I have no way of seeing this as anything other than an insult on my integrity. I worked extremely hard to get into not only medicine, but osteopathic medicine. It didn?t come easily for me, and it took more than one try. I will argue endlessly with anyone who tries to imply that I am not fit to one day wear the letters DO behind my name. A fellow is entitled to their own opinion, but I don?t think that it is appropriate for a fellow to insult one of their students in this way. To be on the positive side of this issue, I will assume that you are NOT a fellow. If you are an OMM fellow at DMU, I no longer want to know. Please keep it a secret from this board if you are.

Posted by lightning (Mike): I am the type of person that if I was a fellow, I would not let my personal feelings about your opinions effect how I treated you as a person or as
student.

Reply: So you want me to believe that if you are in a position of grading students
(fellow), you would not assign a lower grade to a student you would rather see in a MD
program? Maybe this is true, but I would feel less than comfortable about the situation from my position as student.

Posted by lightning (Mike): My final response to this subject is that I disagree with what you are doing on this post. It hurts our school because you discourage good students from coming here.

Reply: If that is the case, then my advice to DMU is this: make the necessary changes and earn the ?good students?.

Posted by lightning (Mike):It hurts our profession because not only are pre Osteopathic students reading this, but also pre Allopaths, physicians and so on.

Reply: I am not ashamed of anything that I have posted here in front of our present and future colleagues. Are you?

Posted by lightning (Mike): In addition assessment is too one sided. You have the right to your opinion, but it is definitly in the minority.

Reply: Definitely? What is your source? Is it scientific data that you are going to share with us that conclusively shows that my opinion is ?definitely in the minority?. I didn?t think so. Regardless, I don?t claim that my opinions are the mAjority. I am not even so conceited as to believe that they are all correct, but they must be at least relevant because as of today you still have not argued many of them. Instead, you insult me and try to persuade me to believe that it is not correct to share my views of DMU here, which I think is ridiculous.

Posted by lightning (Mike):You are not going about changing things here in the correct
manner--in my opinion.

Reply: I respect your opinion, but why shouldn?t we be able to discuss the details about our school with others? Is DMU some type of secret organization?

Posted by lightning (Mike):No our school is not perfect, no our profession is not perfect, no I am not perfect, all of these things including myself could be better. I am activly working to better my school, my future profession, and myself.

Reply: Ditto! I agree completely with your last statement.

hankhill

[This message has been edited by hankhill (edited March 26, 2001).]

Austin Powers · Mar 27, 2001

Dear Hank Hill and Homer...

I am a member of your class at DMU. I will agree that DMU, like many of both allopathic and Osteopathic schools, needs some work in some areas. Overall it is a great place to work hard and get a great education, at least from my limited perspective as a first year student. But what is this huge chip you have on your shoulders? By the way I am 100% percent sure I know who you are Hank, and 95% sure I know who you are Homer. Being the case, I'm pretty sure both of you are in the bottom 1/4 of the class. If DMU is so bad you both should be at the top. How about both of you posting your undergrad GPAs and MCAT scores for everyone here to see. I would bet my first pay check as a doctor that both of you are WELL BELOW DMU's acceptance standards. You both should be glad that you were accepted here at all. My Undergrad GPA was 3.85 Science, 3.89 total. My MCAT total was 29.
Why don't both of you stop complaining about your situations and do somthing about it. Just a note to DMU and all other medical schools, this is what happens when you ignore admissions standards to fill a class.

Austin Powers

tiffsatt · Mar 27, 2001

Originally posted by Rusty:
This thread was intended to spur discussion regarding the top osteopathic medical schools and why they deserve to be referred to as top schools. The US News and World Report rankings are of questionable relevance.•

Thank you Rusty for reminding me why this thread was started! I was simply trying to explain to my roomate that DO schools are not ranked like MD schools. Why respond to me if you don't have an answer.

Homer S · Mar 27, 2001

Originally posted by Austin Powers:
Dear Hank Hill and Homer...

I am a member of your class at DMU. I will agree that DMU, like many of both allopathic and Osteopathic schools, needs some work in some areas. Overall it is a great place to work hard and get a great education, at least from my limited perspective as a first year student. But what is this huge chip you have on your shoulders? By the way I am 100% percent sure I know who you are Hank, and 95% sure I know who you are Homer. Being the case, I'm pretty sure both of you are in the bottom 1/4 of the class. If DMU is so bad you both should be at the top. How about both of you posting your undergrad GPAs and MCAT scores for everyone here to see. I would bet my first pay check as a doctor that both of you are WELL BELOW DMU's acceptance standards. You both should be glad that you were accepted here at all. My Undergrad GPA was 3.85 Science, 3.89 total. My MCAT total was 29.
Why don't both of you stop complaining about your situations and do somthing about it. Just a note to DMU and all other medical schools, this is what happens when you ignore admissions standards to fill a class.

Austin Powers•

Take it easy Austin P. BTW my MCAT was 28 and GPA 3.75 and my class rank is in the top 50%. I don't know who Hank H or you are and really could care less.

DMU is not a bad school but with all Med schools shows the need for improvement in many areas. I attend class, sit near the front or middle and in other words try to get as much out of the curiculum as possible. My main concern is the lack of organization shown by some of the departments.

You are obviously offended by my posts but there is no need to get in a snit and attack my credentials. If you are so sure you know me send me an e-mail through to my account or talk to me after class. You seem to care about the school a great deal and I respect that. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt before you type cast me as a sub par student based upon a couple posts on an open forum.

In closing, I apologize if any DMU students are offended at what I have posted here. My intent was only to discuss current problems not to simply bitch and moan. I bow out of this forum and wish everyone good luck.

Even you Austin P

Homer S

hankhill · Mar 27, 2001

Posted by Austin Powers:I am a member of your class at DMU. I will agree that DMU,
like many of both allopathic and Osteopathic schools, needs some work in some areas.

Reply: I agree with this statement.

Posted by Austin Powers:Overall it is a great place to work hard and get a great
education, at least from my limited perspective as a first year student.

Reply: It is a great place. My concern is that the education might not be that great.

Posted by Austin Powers:But what is this huge chip you have on your shoulders?

Reply:The chip is this. I have posted my opinion on these boards, and people like
you come here and attack me rather than my opinion. I enjoy a clean debate on issues, but what is happening here is not a debate. This forum asked for a ranking. I gave mine along with my reasoning. You and several others obviously disagree with me, but you have given very little reasoning for this. You have not even said that you disagree with my ranking. Nor have you tried to point out why the issues that I have posted are unimportant, imaginary, or otherwise. Instead, you try to discredit me with personal attacks. If I have a chip on my shoulder, it is from the consistent insults that have been thrown my way. I have done my best to refrain from this type of behavior. I am on this particular board giving my honest opinion. It is as simple as that. If you see faults in the issues which I have posted, please be the first to point them out. If it were not for people like you who come on this board to post personal attacks, I probably would be done with this board. If you continue to post, then I will likely do the same. Nothing of any substance has been posted here about the forum?s subject in a long time. Instead, we have a long line of attacks. If there are no more replies that are related to what I have posted, then I most likely will not post on this particular board anymore. Is that fair enough for you?

Posted by Austin Powers:By the way I am 100% percent sure I know who you are Hank, and 95% sure I know who you are Homer. Being the case, I'm pretty sure both of you are in the bottom 1/4 of the class.

Reply:If it makes you or anyone else feel better, I am perfectly OK with everyone on
this board assuming that I am dead last in the class of 2004 at DMU.

Posted by Austin Powers:If DMU is so bad you both should be at the top.

Reply:You must be assuming that I think DMU?s students are ?bad?. I don?t think that
is the case at all. Rather, I have had the privilege of meeting some of the smartest
and nicest people I have ever been around during my short time here at DMU. My
argument isn?t that DMU?s students aren?t good enough, I am arguing that DMU itself
is disorganized and below average. I don?t have any reason to believe that I should
do better in my coursework than any of the other students here at DMU (including
you).

Posted by Austin Powers:How about both of you posting your undergrad GPAs and
MCAT scores for everyone here to see. I would bet my first pay check as a doctor
that both of you are WELL BELOW DMU's acceptance standards. You both should be
glad that you were accepted here at all.

Reply:Again, if it would make you feel better, I am perfectly comfortable with
everyone here believing that I have a low GPA and MCAT. Actually, why don?t we assume that hankhill has the lowest scores that DMU has ever accepted. There, do you feel better? Great, but you probably still won?t tackle the issues that such a lowly
pitiful excuse for a medstudent has posted on this board.

Posted by Austin Powers:My Undergrad GPA was 3.85 Science, 3.89 total. My MCAT total was 29.

Reply:Those are good scores. I am impressed, but it seems to me that after you are accepted to medical school and get any scholarships that you may qualify for, these
scores are no longer worth anything. That is of course just my opinion. On a side
note, did you see the movie ?Meet The Parents?? I guess that this is one other time
when a high MCAT could come in handy.

Posted by Austin Powers:Why don't both of you stop complaining about your situations and do somthing about it.

Reply:I will continue posting on this board as long as people respond to my posts. If
you view it as complaining, then maybe you should move on to another board and ignore this one. As for doing something about the situation, I am open to suggestions. I would like to help improve my medical school, but I don?t think that pretending that problems don?t exist is the answer.

Posted by Austin Powers:Just a note to DMU and all other medical schools, this is
what happens when you ignore admissions standards to fill a class.

Reply: If they are having to ?ignore admissions standards to fill a class? then that should tell everyone that something is apparently wrong. What do you think is
causing them to have to ?ignore admissions standards to fill a class?? How do you
propose that DMU fix this problem and raise their standards? Should they accept fewer students? Then they would have less money to operate on. It seems to me that they could raise their admissions standards and still fill their classes if they would focus on fixing some of the problems that have been discussed on this board. This is all just my opinion though.

hankhill
[email protected]

Rusty · Mar 27, 2001

Originally posted by tiffsatt:
Thank you Rusty for reminding me why this thread was started! I was simply trying to explain to my roomate that DO schools are not ranked like MD schools. Why respond to me if you don't have an answer.•

The ranking which has been referred to during this discussion is the US News and World Report ranking of the Top Primary Care medical schools. This ranking includes both allopathic and osteopathic institutions. Here is the link.

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/beyond/gradrank/mdp/gdmdpt1.htm

kidterrific · Mar 28, 2001

I tend to think that the USNEWS thing is kind of misleading. In my opinion, schools are often ranked according to research dollars, and if that's the case, it's no surprise why osteopathic schools rank low. They simply don't do research. I'm sure they have a methodology that they follow, but I think that the bottom line goes to research dollars.

As far as ranking them by means of primary care, I think that's great. Only, you have to remember a few things. 1 - Many schools aren't ranked because most of their students don't enter primary care, but rather specialize. This automatically drops the school on the ranking. 2 - This is in no way a bash on those who enter primary care (I am seriously considering primary care myself, and always have), but the fact remains that most people use a primary care residency as a 'fall back' because it's one of the most easiest residencies to get. If a school ranks high in primary care, does that imply that it lacks the rescources to guarantee students the residencies they want? No, but it sure does make you think.

So what's the big deal with primary care? The book "The Millionaire Next Door" ranks Osteopathic Practices as the THIRD most profitable business one can get into (under owning a coal mine and an Allopathic Practice). Even more interesting is the fact that while Osteopaths tend to get a higher percentage of the profits than allopaths, according to the book.

This may be why USNEWS thought it would be so important to rank schools according to primary care, aside from research dollars. But I still think that this causes schools to get left out.

------------------
--
KidT
[email protected]

fmfcorpsman · Mar 29, 2001

Hello all,
I am also a first year student at DMU. I would have to disagree with hank's opinion. Most of the classes are good. Most of the professors really do care about how we do as a class, it does after all reflect upon their skills. I am looking forward to my 3rd and 4th year and setting up my own rotations. This gives us an opportunity to branch out and "show our faces" to residency programs that we would be interested in. "Hank" if you have any specific ideas regarding changes that could be made to improve our 1st and 2nd year why don't you run for student council and make a difference. I truly hope that you are able fix whatever it is that you have a problem with.

Nate

Toran · Mar 29, 2001

This thread has certainly focused on DMU, and not addressed which the top schools are for each person. What about KCOM, TUCOM, AZCOM?
I personally would like to think that TCOM and KCOM are the best for OMM. PCOM is impressive solely on its research merrits.
What do you think?

Toran

ryanpj · Apr 2, 2001

I have to agree that much of the anatomy dept. well; it just sucks. Liked most of the other profs. Dr. Johnson's handouts tended to be a little weak but it just took effort and outside sources. Plus Johnson is not that bad of a guy if you go rack his brain, be beware that he will talk your head off. I do have to say that I absolutely hate the fricken seats in the Auditorium. Hell that is half the reason that I am only at class about 20% of time. I am more concerned about our clinical education more than our pre-clinical education, because I will learn what I need to regardless of what joker is up front blabbing, it just takes a little self-motivation. Plus I would rather lay in my boxers and read the notes for that day instead of going to class and getting decubitis ulcers on my bony ass from the damn chairs. Here is what I would like to do. For all of the DMU students on this board I challenge you to do the following: Mail the address of this message thread or at least a portion of it to the Dean, and anyone else that needs to know. I mean **** I love writing to the Congressmen and Senators bitching about how this country is going to hell in a hand-basket, and even more so since Bush is in office. Do be scared of telling people how things are. Make your message to the dean anoyn, by using hushmail.com (it is encrypted). Although it ma hurt the reputation of DMU I do give props to Hankhill for taking the time to jerk a knot in everyones tail to get things rolling hopefully. Although I think everyone should get the hell off the boards and start studying.
I think it is obvious who I am.

ADRIANSHOE · Apr 2, 2001

Originally posted by Austin Powers:
Dear Hank Hill and Homer...

I am a member of your class at DMU. I will agree that DMU, like many of both allopathic and Osteopathic schools, needs some work in some areas. Overall it is a great place to work hard and get a great education, at least from my limited perspective as a first year student. But what is this huge chip you have on your shoulders? By the way I am 100% percent sure I know who you are Hank, and 95% sure I know who you are Homer. Being the case, I'm pretty sure both of you are in the bottom 1/4 of the class. If DMU is so bad you both should be at the top. How about both of you posting your undergrad GPAs and MCAT scores for everyone here to see. I would bet my first pay check as a doctor that both of you are WELL BELOW DMU's acceptance standards. You both should be glad that you were accepted here at all. My Undergrad GPA was 3.85 Science, 3.89 total. My MCAT total was 29.
Why don't both of you stop complaining about your situations and do somthing about it. Just a note to DMU and all other medical schools, this is what happens when you ignore admissions standards to fill a class.

Austin Powers•

this is exactly what i meant by the comments i made in another thread about grades and scores not being worth squat when it comes to INTELLIGENT and CREATIVE thought...what ***** actually believes that because a person is dissatisfied with the way their school is being run that said person is automatically a. at the bottom of their class, b. academically ineligible for entrance in the first place, c. poor mcat takers???????????what kind of base ignorance is this???????????

rmarsh · Apr 3, 2001

This is in reply to hankhill concerning his degrading remarks on DMU. I as well as mr/mrs hill am a first year at DMU, and I am extremely pleased with the school. Yes, I will admit that the school is going through a change, but before you ridicule the school please allow me to make a few comments. First of all this school is extremely pro-student. Every month we have a dean's call in which we are allowed to voice our opinion concerning basically any topic. Believe me our opinions are quickly noted. This person degrades the anatomy department. That is difficult to believe because the anatomy department strives to give the student a solid education.
On a different not though, the schools overall rating is low because the average student entering DMU does not have the 9 average. Big deal, this school strives to find well rounded individuals who not only bring a solid educational background, but excellent personalities. The students here are well rounded and provide excellent peers. I invite people to take the initiative and observe our board scores if they feel DMU is not up to par. I believe you will encounter a very pleasant percentage despite our mcat scores. In fact, I believe the third year class had a 97% passing rate. Look at the big name schools and do the math.
In closing, I beg you not to take to heart what one student at DMU has expressed. Why of course must be asked. The answer lies in the fact that medicine is a professional art, a certain respect for your school, profession, and your class mates is expected. After reading hankhills unnamed article, I felt I was in the presence of a high school equivalent person, the word "sucks" seems to be the only one existing in their vocabulary. Life is what you make of it, and believe me, the choices one makes can positively or negatively effect the rest of your life. If want a quality education, the chance to meet extraordinary medical student and professors, the chance to have a voice in education of yourself and the future medical students of our time, I believe it is worth every effort to take the time to familiarize yourself with DMU. I apologize for the representation Mr/Mrs. Hankhill has portrayed of our school.
Robb Marsh Do 2004 DMU

hankhill · Apr 4, 2001

Posted by rmarsh:In closing, I beg you not to take to heart what one student at DMU
has expressed.

Reply: I agree completely with this statement. I think that applicants should talk to as many students, faculty members, deans, and school employees as possible before making their decision (if you are lucky enough to be in the position of choosing). This is just common sense, and it pertains to all medical schools (not just DMU).

Posted by rmarsh:After reading hankhills unnamed article, I felt I was in the presence of a high school equivalent person, the word "sucks" seems to be the only one existing in their vocabulary.

Reply: Surprise, another attack. I don?t have anything against the word ?sucks?, but
I also don?t recall using it frequently (if at all) on this board until this particular
post. It is difficult for me to see how that you could argue that ?the word sucks seems to be the only one existing? in my vocabulary when it is a fact that in this post alone I have used over fifty other words. When you consider the fact that I
have posted numerous times on this forum and other forums using many words other than ?sucks?, it becomes clear to me that your argument on this particular matter has no value. Do you disagree, or can you clarify what you were trying to point out with your statement and its bearing to your post?

hankhill

reed0104 · Apr 4, 2001

an attack?

What do you call what you are doing to DMU? You nit pick, whine, and quote people out of context and you call what Rob said an attack?

How sad.

The reason people don't contradict your specific issues are that they are not issues for a huge percentage of the students. If you want to quote Dr. Khan and make him sound like a jerk while not realizing his tongue was in his cheek, be my guest.

My opinion is you are a malcontent who has never been happy with his/her education. Why don't you specifically address that?

jsdmu · Apr 4, 2001

Thank you Robb!! Here is my two cents worth about DMU.
Yes, OMM at DMU is top-notch... thank you Dr. Boesler (and Fellows)!
It has been said that there aren't enough seats in LH1 for the studnts. Today in ethics there were a lot of people sitting in the aisles. While listening to these people complaining about sitting on the floor, I counted the number of open seats that I could see from the middle of the room. Trust me, there were enough seats to put these students in. Don't walk in to lecture five minutes late and expect to find a seat at the end of an aisle reserved with your name on it.
The Administration DOES listen! I have had nothing but positive experiences in dealing with them... especially Teitelbaum! He has been very helpful in trying to help me set up programs for the university. He also takes to heart what is said during the deans call. It really is in how you present your case.
As far as Micro goes: Since I have not heard anyone defending the class, I'll say this... If you want to blame anyone, blame the second year students! Case in point that the administration does listen... last year the (now) second year class recommended that the # of tests be cut from 6 or 7 to 3 tests... and they did it. As far as Johnson is concerned, he told us exactly what was going to be on the tests.
Anatomy: Khan was right! He had every right to say what he did b/c many students weren't getting anything done. I know this b/c my group always ended up doing both labs b/c the other group wasn't doing anything. I found anatomy to be very well organized and the teachers were always helpful.
Self-Study Embryo: Is this the method I preffer to learn by... no. But this is not the first time I've ever had to do this. Many schools are moving to having more classes "taught" this way. I think only the future will tell if this is a good learning method.
Schedule changes: So far I haven't had a problem with the schedule changes. For the rest of my life starting with third year, I am expecting drastic schedule changes about every half hour for the rest of my medical career. Yes, it is anoying to be waiting for a lecturer who actually cancelled a week ago... but if this is the worst part of my day, then its been a good day.
AV problems: This is not unique to DMU. At Creighton, stuff broke every day and everyday you could count on a prof not knowing how to work the computer.
Disorganized lectures: Yes, some lecturers are not organized... but all of the information is there, and if it isn't, then they are giving you the perfect opportunity to learn how to become an expert at looking up medical information. This will come in very handy in the not so distant future when your attending will ask you something you have no knowledge of and you have to look it up quick. We have to be motivated to learn everything that we can... whether not its an oblective on the syllabus.
Why DMU should at least be in the Top 5: COMLEX passing rate of 97%. Isn't that the purpose of all of our efforts during the first two years? DMU must be doing something right! I'm not going to say who should be #1 b/c I don't know enough about other schools to judge each other, but certainly our COMLEX passing rate should count for something significant.
No, this posting is not from a blindly-devoted DMU student. I appreciate the opportunity that they have given me and want to work very hard to make the right changes so that DMU is #1. As has been said before, our school is not perfect, and either am I. My challenge to those of you who want to use this forum to simply point out the negative aspects of DMU, when you point out these problems, why not try to list a few of your solutions??
To HankHill: I respectfuly disagree with your comments about DMU. Please respond to my challenge though. I really do want to know what you think should be done to make things better!
P.S.: DMU does give you the incredible opportunity to bring in guest lecturers from programs that you are interested in... my plea for everyone to attend the SOSA lunch tomorrow!

hankhill · Apr 4, 2001

Posted by reed0104:an attack? What do you call what you are doing to DMU? You nit pick, whine, and quote people out of context and you call what Rob said an attack?

Reply: The issues that I posted about DMU are real, and the ranking that I gave was
my opinion which was specifically asked for by this forum. The ?attack? that I referred to posted by rmarsh was completely false and uncalled for. Specifically, rmarsh stated, ?After reading hankhills unnamed article, I felt I was in the presence of a high school equivalent person, the word "sucks" seems to be the only one existing in their vocabulary.? If this truly is rmarsh?s opinion about my posts, I completely disagree with him. I have rarely used the word ?sucks? in any of my writing on this forum until after he made this accusation. I replied to what he stated because I felt that he had written something that was obviously wrong. I have not posted anything on this board about DMU that I specifically know to be untrue. My opinions are open to debate, and I agree that some of them may be wrong. However, I have backed all of them up with my reasoning which is rarely debated (but should be if you disagree with me). Rather, my writing skills seem to be a more interesting topic for some to debate. To answer your question,
?What do you call what you are doing to DMU??:
I am posting my opinion, and I use specific examples to show why I feel this way. I
don?t view it as an attack, and everything that I post is not negative. If rmarsh?s post
was his opinion and not an attack, then I would like to see him explain how his logic
holds up when in all actuality I had used the word ?sucks? very little (if at all) until he brought it up. I am open to constructive criticism, but if its not true, it certainly isn?t constructive. If you feel that anything which I have posted is untrue, please say so and provide some specific material that supports your reasoning. I will concede anything that you can prove.

Posted by reed0104:The reason people don't contradict your specific issues are that
they are not issues for a huge percentage of the students.

Reply: Really? Several of the issues that I have talked about on this board have come up at the dean?s calls. This would tend to indicate that they aren?t as insignificant as you would like everyone to believe. On a slightly different note, I was very impressed with what the dean had to say about this whole situation this week at the dean?s call. He didn?t try to dodge any of the issues, but rather he just stated that he would rather find out about them in a different atmosphere. He did say that he counted enough chairs in the lecture hall for students coming to ethics. He is likely correct about this, but I still think that there is a problem when so many people were sitting on the floor today in this class. You can argue that these people mostly arrived late, and I would likely agree with you. Still, I think that a problem exists here, but I plan on trying to take the dean?s advice and pursuing it with him away from this forum.

Posted by reed0104:If you want to quote Dr. Khan and make him sound like a jerk
while not realizing his tongue was in his cheek, be my guest.

Reply: He said it. You don?t deny it, and I didn?t find it funny. I still have yet to hear an apology for it. You can argue all day about this, but you will not be able to justify what he said. Students here are not ?lazy asses? and they should not be called this regardless of whether you are or aren?t joking. I was not impressed with this course,
and what the course coordinator had to say on that day made it even less impressive. I could go on, but I would rather try again to seek the channels of communication that the dean requested us to use this week.

Posted by reed0104:My opinion is you are a malcontent who has never been happy with his/her education. Why don't you specifically address that?

Reply: I won?t lose any sleep over what you think about me reed0104. That is your opinion, but you give nothing to back it up. Why should I waste my study time denying this opinion, if you don?t even take the time to provide any evidence as to why it ?holds water?.

hankhill

[This message has been edited by hankhill (edited April 05, 2001).]

hankhill · Apr 4, 2001

Posted by jsdmu:Yes, OMM at DMU is top-notch... thank you Dr. Boesler (and Fellows)!

Reply: I agree. This department really shines.

Posted by jsdmu:It has been said that there aren't enough seats in LH1 for the studnts. Today in ethics there were a lot of people sitting in the aisles. While listening to these people complaining about sitting on the floor, I counted the number of open seats that I could see from the middle of the room. Trust me, there were enough seats to put these students in. Don't walk in to lecture five minutes late and expect to find a seat at the end of an aisle reserved with your name on it.

Reply: IMO, Part of the problem with seats is that they are not organized well. Usually, when we go to the required courses in LH1 it is directly after lunch. As you
well know, there are frequently seminars given over the lunch period. Chairs are often pushed out of rows to make way for a food line and they are often not re-organized. This is just my hypothesis. One day Dr. Boesler came to class and made sure that everyone had a seat. He was successful at this by arranging the lecture hall so that there were no chairs pushed out of the rows. If you noticed today in ethics, there were several chairs on the lower level where the presenter was speaking and in other areas of the room. You say at the end of your post that you ?really do want to know? what I think ?should be done to make things better?. In this case, I think we (students) are at least partially to blame. We should work harder to make sure that none of our classmates are sitting on the floor. IMO, this problem could be improved if more students made an effort to fit as many chairs into their row as possible. I have seen this happen, but I have also seen chairs pushed out of a row to provide individuals with more space. I also think that the clubs that are putting on lunch presentations should take a more active role in cleaning up after themselves and reorganizing the room before they leave.

Posted by jsdmu:The Administration DOES listen! I have had nothing but positive
experiences in dealing with them... especially Teitelbaum! He has been very helpful in trying to help me set up programs for the university. He also takes to heart what is said during the deans call. It really is in how you present your case.

Reply: I hope you are right about this. As I said earlier, I was encouraged by what he
had to say this week. I am going to give him a chance to do what he said he would.

Posted by jsdmu:As far as Micro goes: Since I have not heard anyone defending the class, I'll say this... If you want to blame anyone, blame the second year students!
Case in point that the administration does listen... last year the (now) second year
class recommended that the # of tests be cut from 6 or 7 to 3 tests... and they did it.

Reply: I won?t ?blame the 2nd year students? for what happened with micro this year. I agree that 7 tests is too much, but reducing the number of exams by over half is also too drastic in my opinion. I do agree with you that the administration (particularly Dr. Mueller) had good intentions when they did this. Mueller is an extremely valuable asset to the university, and I know that he is doing everything in his power to make DMU and its students strong. They just made a mistake in this particular case and I can live with that, but I do hope that they learn from it. I stand by my assessment that too many of our courses are far too drastically changed from year to year. Instead of going from extreme to extreme each year, I would rather them take a more ?fine-tune? approach to making their course changes.

Posted by jsdmu:As far as Johnson is concerned, he told us exactly what was going
to be on the tests.

Reply: I simply disagree with that statement. I respectfully think that his lectures, notes, and exam questions could all use major improvement.

Posted by jsdmu:Anatomy: Khan was right! He had every right to say what he did b/c many students weren't getting anything done. I know this b/c my group always ended up doing both labs b/c the other group wasn't doing anything.

Reply: No way! Nobody at DMU should ever direct that kind of attitude toward students, faculty, employees, visitors, or anyone for that matter. It is simply
unprofessional IMO. If there are students not getting the job done, then he should
take this up with those particular students. He made his statement to the ENTIRE class, and I know for certain that the entire class was NOT falling behind. Let me ask you this question. If you think it is all right for him to show this attitude towards students, do you think that it would be OK for me to call him a ?lazy ass? if I were unhappy with the speed at which my practical was graded? That was just hypothetical, and I was pleased with the speed that they got my practicals graded. I simply don?t think his comments were appropriate.

Posted by jsdmu: I found anatomy to be very well organized and the teachers were always helpful.

Reply: I didn?t find anatomy to be very well organized, and I didn?t think the teachers
were always helpful. I can go into details if you would like, but I would rather pass
them on to the dean.

Posted by jsdmu:Self-Study Embryo: Is this the method I preffer to learn by... no.
But this is not the first time I've ever had to do this. Many schools are moving to
having more classes "taught" this way. I think only the future will tell if this is a good learning method.

Reply: I am OK with self study if the objectives and requirements are well defined.
They were not in this particular case. There were abundant errors, and the reading
assignments were not even correct. That shows a lack of preparation and leads to
disorganization.

Posted by jsdmu:Schedule changes: So far I haven't had a problem with the schedule changes. For the rest of my life starting with third year, I am expecting drastic schedule changes about every half hour for the rest of my medical career. Yes, it is anoying to be waiting for a lecturer who actually cancelled a week ago... but
if this is the worst part of my day, then its been a good day.

Reply: Sure, its not going to be fatal, but it is irresponsible to be so disorganized that you forget to even tell students when you have canceled a lecture. On a different
note, I view the syllabus for each class to be a contract that students cannot break without an extremely stout excuse. If
a professor is going to make a change, then I think that we deserve: 1)An explanation 2)A reasonable time frame of advanced warning for the change 3)An adequate means of getting the information to ALL students (e-mail or otherwise).

Posted by jsdmu:AV problems: This is not unique to DMU. At Creighton, stuff broke
every day and everyday you could count on a prof not knowing how to work the computer.

Reply: Just because this happened at "Creighton" does not make it acceptable or
responsible. I don?t want to ?everyday count on a prof not knowing how to work the computer?. If they don?t know how, then they need to address the problem and learn how. Computers are not new any more, and they are here to stay.

Posted by jsdmu

isorganized lectures: Yes, some lecturers are not organized... but
all of the information is there, and if it isn't, then they are giving you the perfect
opportunity to learn how to become an expert at looking up medical information. This
will come in very handy in the not so distant future when your attending will ask you something you have no knowledge of and you have to look it up quick. We have to
be motivated to learn everything that we can... whether not its an oblective on the
syllabus.

Reply: I can?t argue that the information isn?t somewhere in the universe for me to
find. I don?t think that it is too much to ask that students be presented with straight
forward objectives to help them focus in on the important topics of each course. We
cannot be expected to learn everything about every subject. As for learning to look up information, I have had plenty of experience researching and gathering information throughout my collegiate career. Let me ask you this. Would you rather go to an organized or disorganized lecture? Think about your answer, and remember that if you go to the organized lecture that you will miss out on the opportunity ?to become an expert at looking up medical information.? I don?t completely disagree with what you are saying here, but I also don?t think that you can defend disorganization. You put a
positive spin on it, and that is a good way of looking at things. However, in the long
run I think that we would be better off and that we would learn more if the professor
was just organized. Maybe then ?in the not so distant future when your attending will
ask you something? instead of having ?no knowledge? of the answer you will
confidently reply correctly and not have to ?look it up quick?.

Posted by jsdmu:Why DMU should at least be in the Top 5: COMLEX passing rate of 97%.

Reply: What is your source for this passing rate? Is it a first time rate, or overall rate. If you can give me an independently verifiable source for this, then I will have to say that those are competitive numbers.

Posted by jsdmu:I'm not going to say who should be #1 b/c I don't know enough
about other schools to judge each other

Reply: I don?t think that DMU should be #1, but with your reasoning that you ?don?t
know enough about other schools to judge each other? I think that it would only be
fair for me to concede the following. I ranked DMU ?dead last? even though I too
?don't know enough about other schools to judge each other?. Too correct this, I will
say this. I think that DMU should be ranked at least in the bottom half of osteopathic
medical schools. This is only based on my opinion. It is not impossible for you to be
correct, but I don?t share your opinion. The answer likely lies somewhere in between both of our rankings.

Posted by jsdmu:No, this posting is not from a blindly-devoted DMU student. I appreciate the opportunity that they have given me and want to work very hard to make the right changes so that DMU is #1. As has been said before, our school is not perfect, and neither am I.

Reply: Ditto

Posted by jsdmu:My challenge to those of you who want to use this forum to simply point out the negative aspects of DMU, when you point out these problems, why not try to list a few of your solutions??

Reply: I have pointed out positive aspects of DMU on this forum. I?m sorry if there
weren?t enough to suit you, but I have posted things that I am pleased with at DMU.
I have also tried to talk about solutions to some of the problems in this particular
post. As for the disorganization, the only thing that I can recommend is for the
administration to light a fire under the faculty and make them accountable for their
performance. This is not easy with complexities like tenure often getting in the way. I guess that the course coordinator?s have to lead by example, and I would say that in courses like OMT, biochem, and micro that this is either working or will soon.

Posted by jsdmu:To HankHill: I respectfuly disagree with your comments about DMU.
Please respond to my challenge though. I really do want to know what you think
should be done to make things better!

Reply: I ?respectfully disagree? with some of your comments also, but not all of
them. Your post was intelligently planned, and you stuck to the issues. It demonstrated that despite the fact that you and I disagree, we do not have to become hostile towards each other. Thanks for that. You made some good points, and I look forward to seeing your reply to this post. However, I am most likely done posting on this board at least until after Monday?s Path exam. Ryanpj pretty well summed it all up when he said ?I think everyone should get the hell off the boards and start studying.?

Posted by jsdmu: DMU does give you the incredible opportunity to bring in guest
lecturers from programs that you are interested in... my plea for everyone to attend the SOSA lunch tomorrow!

Reply: I can?t argue with that at all. Thank you for devoting a lot of your spare time to making some of these events happen. I look forward to learning about bowel transplantation tomorrow and even more so to eating some FREE quizno?s.

hankhill

[This message has been edited by hankhill (edited April 04, 2001).]

jsdmu · Apr 4, 2001

To HankHill,
Thank you for your reply. I would sincerely like to keep this clean and professional as you and I have been able to do in our interactions. To sum up some points:
1) Yes, often, it is the students own fault for the seats not being in place in LH1. After their case studies today, the student presenters should have moved the seats back. This would largely end this topic! As well, students should move to the center of the rows to allow those who do arrive late to sit at the ends without having to crawl over people.
2) Thank you for giving Teitelbaum a chance. I think if we as a class show him that we are dedicated and sincere about making DMU better, He will come through for us.
3) I also would like to see a more fine-tuned approach to curriculum change. For this to occur, we need to give the course coordinators a lot of feedback and work with them closely... and listen to what they have to say about the changes as well.
4) In some part pertaining to my third statement... I have a few solution (suggetions) for embryo. This definately needs some work. One possibility would be to have an on-line course base to this with video, test questions, and didactics (sp?). It is not enough to give students a reading assignment (and yes, the page #'s were wrong) and then give us a test. I hope that we can work with the department to make this a better learning experience next year.
5) I guess I'm going to have to agree to disagree with you about anatomy... nuf' said.
6) By no means do I like disorganized classes... In order to change this though, it will require a lot on our (the students) part to work with these departments/teachers to make the correct changes.
7) About AV stuff... I forgot to finish my thought on the last reply. No, it is not ok for stuff to break all the time or for teachers to make a power point presentation and then not know how to turn the computer on. A possible solution would be for admin. to look at the AV budget and hopefully buy some newer/better equip. Also, have a mandatory training session for faculty to learn how to work and fix whatever AV services they use. Just a few thoughts.
8) Is there anything in the syllabus regarding schedule changes and time frames pertaining to changing test material? I don't know, but it may be a place to start!
9) Dr. Boesler and others have said that the (now) third year class had a 97% pass rate on COMLEX I this past year... I'll double check with admin. And yes, I think this does speak very highly of our program. I would also be curious to find out how our students who chose to take the USMLE did.
10) If I don't stop posting messages, I will be retaking path. this summer!

kidterrific · Apr 5, 2001

Whoah....I go and buy Tribes 2, take a break from this message board, and all HELL breaks loose!

I have a sincere request. I understand that all of you may think that trying to change things may be a worthless gesture, since any change that is made isn't made for another year (after it doesn't even concern you guys anymore). But I suggest, ask, BEG of you guys to sincerely try to change things. Because next year, I'll be at DMU, and I'd like to know that my fellow alumni have at least tried to make things better for us guys coming in. I know I'll work on making things better for the classes after me.

Your most humble KidTerrific

------------------
--
KidT
[email protected]

muonwhiz · Apr 5, 2001

Has the Dean been reading this forum? Some of the posts heavily implied that the Dean has suggested that all complaints remain in house. Correct? I for one, am enjoying this debate about DMU as I am on the wait list for this next class. I have been accepted at another school, but all info about DMU is appreciated, because if I am accepted off the wait list, there would be a difficult choice to make.

hankhill · Apr 5, 2001

Posted by muonwhiz:Has the Dean been reading this forum?

Reply: Yes

Posted by muonwhiz:Some of the posts heavily implied that the Dean has suggested that all complaints remain in house. Correct?

Reply: No, he seems to recognize that students have the right to visit these boards. I was impressed by that. He just wants a chance to find out about the problems
away from this board so that he can fix them and they hopefully won't show up.

Posted by muonwhiz:I for one, am enjoying this debate about DMU as I am on the wait list for this next class. I have been accepted at another school, but all info about DMU is appreciated, because if I am accepted off the wait list, there would be a difficult choice to make.

Reply: Congratulations on getting accepted. This time it isn't premature.

quietparadise · Apr 5, 2001

Just a quick note. My class took part one boards last June. We had around 200 students take it (I think exact number was 206, but I'm not sure). There were 6 failures, and one of those was not a member of my class but rather a member of the 2001 class. So if my math is correct we had a 97% pass rate the first time around. Not too shabby!

Kay

azeimet · Apr 5, 2001

I would like to correct a misconception that has been made regarding a quote made by Dr. Khan during anatomy. Being that I am the AV person for notepool, I had to attend every class last semester. Dr. Khan never made the comment about us "getting out that thing called a scalpel and get your lazy ***** to work". That was actually a "joke" quote that was placed in notepool by an individual (name to be withheld) who tends to put funny comments in the notes that he transcribes. What Dr. Khan did say was that we (we meaning as a whole class) were getting a little behind in our dissection and that he thought we all needed to spend more time outside of class to get caught up. He never spoke to us using foul language.

On another note, while DMU may have some problems, I think they have been overly exaggerated on this discussion board, besides I think the POSITIVES OF THIS SCHOOL GREATLY OUTWEIGH the negatives that have been expressed on this discussion board.

I have always been glad that I decided to come to this school and when someone asks me where I went to school, I will, without any hesitation, proudly state that I went to Des Moines University-Osteopathic Medical Center.

When I have a little more free time, I will attempt to list the positives of this school. I encourage all DMU students to do the same.

Sincerely,

Anthony P. Zeimet, MS I

muonwhiz · Apr 5, 2001

Thanks! I would be interested in hearing what each of you (already students at DMU) think are the strong points of the school, and especially why you decided to go there.

Hope2001 · Apr 5, 2001

I heard you have to arrange your own clinicals at DMU. Is that a difficult process? What are the COMLEX step II scores compare to other DO schools?

hankhill · Apr 5, 2001

Posted by azeimet:I would like to correct a misconception that has been made regarding a quote made by Dr. Khan during anatomy. Being that I am the AV person for notepool, I had to attend every class last semester. Dr. Khan never made the comment about us "getting out that thing called a scalpel and get your lazy ***** to work". That was actually a "joke" quote that was placed in notepool by an individual (name to be withheld) who tends to put funny comments in the notes that he transcribes.

Reply: If you are correct and he never made that statement, then I would like to offer my sincere apology both to Dr. Kahn and this board for leading everyone to believe that he did. I dug up the notepool from that day, and not only does it quote him but it also signs his name at the bottom. Specifically it says:

Introduction: "Start studying the bones of the skull. It's a long list. The cadaver dissection is getting a little behind. There is no way you can do all the dissection in the allotted time. So, in your free time go into the lab, grab that little thing called a scalpel, and get your lazy a-- to work."
Kahn

I am glad to learn that he probably DID NOT make this statement. I read the quote in notepool that you see above, saw that it was signed Kahn at the end, and assumed it was his. I talked with many other DMU students then and now, and all of them assumed like me that he said it. Azeimet is the first student who I have heard declare that the statement never came out of Kahn's mouth, and I tend to believe him. I assumed that the notepool from that day was accurate enough to post on this board. It obviously was not. I WAS apparently WRONG. Please accept my apology. I never meant to mislead anyone, and if I find any reason to believe that anything else that I have posted is untrue, I will respond as quickly as possible to correct it.

hankhill

2004DO · Apr 6, 2001

Originally posted by azeimet:
I would like to correct a misconception that has been made regarding a quote made by Dr. Khan during anatomy. Being that I am the AV person for notepool, I had to attend every class last semester. Dr. Khan never made the comment about us "getting out that thing called a scalpel and get your lazy ***** to work". That was actually a "joke" quote that was placed in notepool by an individual (name to be withheld) who tends to put funny comments in the notes that he transcribes. What Dr. Khan did say was that we (we meaning as a whole class) were getting a little behind in our dissection and that he thought we all needed to spend more time outside of class to get caught up. He never spoke to us using foul language.

To all interested in DMU:

I attended almost every Anatomy lecture and believe that he said this quote. He had a sense of humor and kidded the class to quit complaining or crying and get to work. More than once he made comments about going home to cry to your mommy about failing an exam.

No big deal, get used to being pimped b/c like it or not, fair or not it will happen in rotations and residency.

DMU is a good school and I am happy to be here. I also agree with a lot of what Hank Hill has said. Remember, these problems exist to a great extent at every medical school to a lessor or greater extent. This is an informal forum and ANYONE who would make a decision based upon what they read here does not deserve to be admitted anywhere. Ask questions of your advisors, mentors or students you know well and make the best decision for you.

If Hank Hill bothers everyone so much debate specific issues and quit responding to him with tired platitudes on how great the school is. This is not high school where you need cheerleaders. Get involved and work hard; those are the qualities I respect as a DMU student.

[This message has been edited by 2004DO (edited April 06, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by 2004DO (edited April 06, 2001).]

JThomas88 · Apr 8, 2001

Originally posted by Liquid_Tension:
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Rusty:
Liquid,
That is funny in a childish sort of way. I agree with your statement that the most important thing is learning the material and gaining the knowledge. However, the hostility evident in your post must mean one of two things:
A. You care and are offended by my ranking, hence you must be lying when you say that you "really don't give a flying rats ass."
B. You don't care, but you have a great deal of hostility toward issues which you don't care about?

Neither option bodes well for you...I wish you luck sorting it out.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Rusty, you know something.....I think that you are right after all. You are right when you say that I am lying. Yes indeed, I was lying when I stated that I did not give a flying rats ass. Actually, I do not give a soaring squirrels giant butthole about you and your cheesy lists on the various schools of medicine. You also are right when you tell me that I have hostility. I do have hostility, and I often train this hostility towards little flea bags like yourself. Why don't you go outside and count the number of pebbles you find in your street. That would be a nice start. And after that, you can go to the supermarket, and see how many circular apples you can locate.
I think that both options bode well for you.
-your most unsorted liquid

•

--Liquid you are hilarious.

JThomas88 · Apr 8, 2001

Originally posted by zorro21:
where does LECOM rank among the other D.O. schools? is it a top ten contender?•

-i dont think so.

Ranking D.O. Schools - Should Your School Be #1?

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