Radiology - hyped Speciality

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my bad for polluting your board. that i am sorry for and this will be my last post.

but who said you were a *******? you're probably a highly qualified candidate. but what about the thousands of cards apps filled out by mediocre students? you can't deny this exists. even a pre-med can realize this.

once again, i respect cardiology. you've got to be smart to be a cardiologist. but please think objectively when assessing which field is more competitive. the sheer number of average students in IM looking for the money/power in cardiology indirectly makes this field less competitive than derm/ortho/ent/plastics/rads, etc.

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my bad for polluting your board. that i am sorry for and this will be my last post.

but who said you were a *******? you're probably a highly qualified candidate. but what about the thousands of cards apps filled out by mediocre students? you can't deny this exists. even a pre-med can realize this.

once again, i respect cardiology. you've got to be smart to be a cardiologist. but please think objectively when assessing which field is more competitive. the sheer number of average students in IM looking for the money/power in cardiology indirectly makes this field less competitive than derm/ortho/ent/plastics/rads, etc.

hilarious. A radiologist who thinks rads is more competetive than cards. Where have I seen this before?:laugh:
 
rads is more competitive than cards.

just because you have a lot of *******es applying to your field and getting rejected and lowering your acceptance rate doesn't make cardiology more competitive.

i think students at competitive (like mgh) would be competitive for any residency, but keep in mind you have a bunch of FMG's and us grads who didn't do well in med school and saw cards as a back door to money.

i respect cardiology, but lets not say BS things like cardiology is more competitive than radiology, especially by quoting penn's cardiology. i'm sure they attract the finest of the finest, la creme de la creme. but what about the local community hospital's cardiology program with the foreign medical graduate who went to islamabad medical college?

From the lay public point of view, cardiologists are heroes who directly save lives everyday, from acute interventional procedures to medical management of complex heart failure patients. However, we also need to remind ourselves that anxillary services are equally important--radiology technicians, laboratory technicians, radiologists, janitors, phlebotomists, office secretaries, computer technicians, cafeteria cooks.
 
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From the lay public point of view, cardiologists are heroes who directly save lives everyday, from acute interventional procedures to medical management of complex heart failure patients. However, we also need to remind ourselves that anxillary services are equally important--radiology technicians, laboratory technicians, radiologists, janitors, phlebotomists, office secretaries, computer technicians, cafeteria cooks.

Maybe if you go to medical school someday, you will learn to appreciate your friendly neighborhood radiologist. You will come to learn they know a lot and can help you out of a jam. They also are pretty good at "acute intervential procedures". I guarantee you I did a lot more "interventional procedures" during rads residency / neurorads fellowship than any IM / cards. What a joke.

As far as saving lives -- radiologists save lives every day, too. I can remember one time a couple of years ago a cardiologist showed up in the busy trauma center I work at, but his patient died anyway. Since then, I haven't seen one. But in the interrum, I've diagnosed hundreds of pneumothoraces, many different kinds of internal injuries, and acute intracranial abnormalities -- many of which were not previously suspected, were life threatening, and ones nobody else in the hospital could have diagnosed or even properly protocoled the studies to allow diagnosis. If you are ever in a car wreck, which would you have around -- a good radiologist or a good cardiologist?

What the radiologist doesn't have time to do is go around to people whose lives he's saved or improved (trauma, early stage breast cancer, carotid stenosis, rotator cuff tear, septic joint, etc., etc.) and get face time. He documents his findings and moves on.
 
As far as saving lives -- radiologists save lives every day, too. I can remember one time a couple of years ago a cardiologist showed up in the busy trauma center I work at, but his patient died anyway. Since then, I haven't .......[/quote]


Dude you sound like a whiny pathetic broken record. WTF, your example is pathetic. How many of those lives that you saved did you actually talk to the patient? Or order a test? Or make a decision? Even better, tell us how many times you have read that pneumothorax and by the time you called the ER doc, there has already been a chest tube in?
Maybe you haven't seen the cardiologist because he is out there with patients, the last place a radiologist would be.

Sure as **** I would want a cardiologist around if I was in car wreck. What the hell would a radiologist do other than call 911?

Please tell us some more of your stories of saving lives :) they are very entertaining.
Did I tell you about this phlebotomist that saved the life of a patient yesterday? They drew this patient's blood and the Troponin assay was positive.


I like the previous post better, radiologists are just ancillary staff.
 
Dude you sound like a whiny pathetic broken record. WTF, your example is pathetic. How many of those lives that you saved did you actually talk to the patient? Or order a test? Or make a decision? Even better, tell us how many times you have read that pneumothorax and by the time you called the ER doc, there has already been a chest tube in?
Maybe you haven't seen the cardiologist because he is out there with patients, the last place a radiologist would be.

Sure as **** I would want a cardiologist around if I was in car wreck. What the hell would a radiologist do other than call 911?

Please tell us some more of your stories of saving lives :) they are very entertaining.
Did I tell you about this phlebotomist that saved the life of a patient yesterday? They drew this patient's blood and the Troponin assay was positive.


I like the previous post better, radiologists are just ancillary staff.

Of all the posts in this thread, yours was the best. While I disagree that radiologists are just ancillary staff, your point is well communicated. Radiologists save lives every day indirectly just like the phlembotomist saves lives.

Now I mean no disrespect to radiologists, and I feel the stuff they work with is awesome, but at the same time I don't feel it's as practical as IM or general surgery. Radiologists can't do too much on the mission field, nor can most of them run a code effectively years out after residency. Obvs this isn't their job function but for me, I would rather someone that directly helps patients...then again to each their own for choosing a specialty. I feel that radiologists are more of a technical expertise than a practicing physician. A pediatric neuroradiologist 20 years out of med school had no idea what metronidazole was specifically used for or what dapsone was (to her defense she probably doesn't need to anyways). The IR guy at my institution told me if someone codes they just call a code instead of running it (probably best for patient care doing that anyways).

And lastly, overall rads may be harder than IM to get a residency, but come on, it's not THAT hard. Anyone with a little above average stats at my school could get a rads residency, so flaunting intelligence with the fact one is in rads is juvenile at best. Otherwise I oftentimes if not always respect that poster's posts.
 
Of all the posts in this thread, yours was the best. While I disagree that radiologists are just ancillary staff, your point is well communicated. Radiologists save lives every day indirectly just like the phlembotomist saves lives.

Now I mean no disrespect to radiologists, and I feel the stuff they work with is awesome, but at the same time I don't feel it's as practical as IM or general surgery. Radiologists can't do too much on the mission field, nor can most of them run a code effectively years out after residency. Obvs this isn't their job function but for me, I would rather someone that directly helps patients...then again to each their own for choosing a specialty. I feel that radiologists are more of a technical expertise than a practicing physician. A pediatric neuroradiologist 20 years out of med school had no idea what metronidazole was specifically used for or what dapsone was (to her defense she probably doesn't need to anyways). The IR guy at my institution told me if someone codes they just call a code instead of running it (probably best for patient care doing that anyways).

And lastly, overall rads may be harder than IM to get a residency, but come on, it's not THAT hard. Anyone with a little above average stats at my school could get a rads residency, so flaunting intelligence with the fact one is in rads is juvenile at best. Otherwise I oftentimes if not always respect that poster's posts.

Codes aren't that hard -- you, too, will learn that someday. Do an weekend ACLS course and drug shock drug shock.

And as far as flagyl, etc. -- you too will forget the exact indications and dosages for medications you don't use everyday. But it won't matter because if you were using them you would probably be outside your scope of practice and it would be bad for patients.

What radiologists bring is a very large knowledge base about pathology in every system of the body, their radiologic appearances and differential diagnoses, and a good bit about treatment as that is important to be able to communicate effectively with numerous different specialties. We also do a lot of image-guided / endovascular procedures. This is hardly a technician's task.
 
actually, i had put those stats for anyone to look at objectively. i wasn't pushing for cards over rads or v.v. but it looks like people with HUGE egos/superiority complex are already getting defensive.

and sure, a radiologist can say that codes are easy - on a dummy where you give fake medicine and fake cpr.

you haven't been in a ccu or icu trying to revive a real human being. yes, codes are easy...in terms of remembering "drug, shock, drug, shock", if that's all you think codes are...that is the most ******ed thing i've ever heard of and you are definitely in the right career then...stay away from real patients! you have to use CLINICAL skills to assess what is going on during a code. you really can't use your "cannot rule out" skills during a code, buddy.
 
but what about the thousands of cards apps filled out by mediocre students? you can't deny this exists. even a pre-med can realize this.


right, and you personally know that those type of people don't apply for radiology - you have a good friend at NRMP giving you those stats. because the mediocre students think cards is easy so why not give it a shot? sweet reasoning!
 
actually, i had put those stats for anyone to look at objectively. i wasn't pushing for cards over rads or v.v. but it looks like people with HUGE egos/superiority complex are already getting defensive.

and sure, a radiologist can say that codes are easy - on a dummy where you give fake medicine and fake cpr.

you haven't been in a ccu or icu trying to revive a real human being. yes, codes are easy...in terms of remembering "drug, shock, drug, shock", if that's all you think codes are...that is the most ******ed thing i've ever heard of and you are definitely in the right career then...stay away from real patients! you have to use CLINICAL skills to assess what is going on during a code. you really can't use your "cannot rule out" skills during a code, buddy.

I did a surgery internship at a busy metropolitan hospital, am used to resuscitating bleeding and dying patients, and have had plenty of hands-on. ACLS is rote. Learn the shockable rhythms and a few drugs. C'mon.

The interesting thing is that radiologists have quite a bit of clinical training and continue that during radiology training and beyond. But radiology is a whole world that most medical students get only a month of limited exposure to but think they know it all.
 
As far as saving lives -- radiologists save lives every day, too. I can remember one time a couple of years ago a cardiologist showed up in the busy trauma center I work at, but his patient died anyway. Since then, I haven't .......


Dude you sound like a whiny pathetic broken record. WTF, your example is pathetic. How many of those lives that you saved did you actually talk to the patient? Or order a test? Or make a decision? Even better, tell us how many times you have read that pneumothorax and by the time you called the ER doc, there has already been a chest tube in?
Maybe you haven't seen the cardiologist because he is out there with patients, the last place a radiologist would be.

Sure as **** I would want a cardiologist around if I was in car wreck. What the hell would a radiologist do other than call 911?

Please tell us some more of your stories of saving lives :) they are very entertaining.
Did I tell you about this phlebotomist that saved the life of a patient yesterday? They drew this patient's blood and the Troponin assay was positive.


I like the previous post better, radiologists are just ancillary staff.

Are you kidding me? What is hell is missing in your brain that you have to insult other professionals. You're friggin pathetic, man. You have no idea what the day to day interactions of a radiologist are and are in no position to comment on them. We read a very large number of studies for the ER and for our surgical colleagues that often make the diagnosis to guide therapy for the patient. Our interactions with medicine folk are less common (although often more frustrating due to the lack of basic anatomy and imaging knowledge). As someone who actually practices radiology and knows what it entails, I can honestly tell you I make more difference in the management of patients (whether its imaging diagnosis or procedures) in an average day of radiology than I ever did in internal medicine. I have the utmost respect for my clinical colleagues who are on the frontlines of medicine and do my best to help them. Even though I don't consider jackasses such as yourself to be colleagues (more just annoyances), I'll help you just the same when you need it.
 
...and you prolly did not see yourself doing 3 years of IM (aka hard work)!

As a son of immigrants and myself an immigrant, I've been working hard all my life. Worked hard in HS got into a decent undergrad-> partial scholarships, worked in undergrad to pay the rest of my tuition. My hard work and study in undergrad got me into a great AMERICAN medschool-> busted my hump in med school-> got into radiology-> gonna bust some mo' ass as an IR.

Tell me something I don't know about hard work? Acha?
 
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Please lecture me about working hard.

I've been working hard all my life. Worked hard in HS got into a good undergrad-> worked in undergrad to pay for tuition, studied hard. My hard work in undergrad got me into a great AMERICAN medschool-> busted my ass in med school-> got into radiology-> gonna bust ass as an IR.

Tell me more about hard work?

Yep, sounds like an annoying gunner with insecurity issues. You go boy!
 
Are you kidding me? What is hell is missing in your brain that you have to insult other professionals. You're friggin pathetic, man. You have no idea what the day to day interactions of a radiologist are and are in no position to comment on them. We read a very large number of studies for the ER and for our surgical colleagues that often make the diagnosis to guide therapy for the patient. Our interactions with medicine folk are less common (although often more frustrating due to the lack of basic anatomy and imaging knowledge). As someone who actually practices radiology and knows what it entails, I can honestly tell you I make more difference in the management of patients (whether its imaging diagnosis or procedures) in an average day of radiology than I ever did in internal medicine. I have the utmost respect for my clinical colleagues who are on the frontlines of medicine and do my best to help them. Even though I don't consider jackasses such as yourself to be colleagues (more just annoyances), I'll help you just the same when you need it.


Looks like I hit a nerve with someone. Can I pass you a box of kleenex?

Especially this whine: "Look I can honestly tell you I make more difference....."
I am not arguing your point here, I agree you made absolutely no difference with your time in Internal Medicine.

Hey everyone, take a look at the other posts from this guy...he spends all of his life, going to other specialty forums where he gets up on his soapbox and preaches about how life would not go on without his specialty.
 
As a son of immigrants and myself an immigrant, I've been working hard all my life. Worked hard in HS got into a decent undergrad-> partial scholarships, worked in undergrad to pay the rest of my tuition. My hard work and study in undergrad got me into a great AMERICAN medschool-> busted my hump in med school-> got into radiology-> gonna bust some mo' ass as an IR.

Tell me something I don't know about hard work? Acha?

Dude, what is your point? and why are going back and editing your post? Need to add some more background to make you feel good? I especially like the little edits you made with changing around the humps for the ass. I especially like how you added the fact your a son of a immigrant, does that make you better?
 
This is a dumb thread.
Smart folks go in to both specialties.

---Thread Closed---
 
Yep, sounds like an annoying gunner with insecurity issues. You go boy!

Some try to rationalize their own mediocre performance, by judging those more successful than themselves to be 'gunners'.

'Projection' is a well-described in defense mechanism in psychology employed by those that are emotionally immature or have poor coping skills. Resorting to an ad hominem attack is a sign that you either have no real point to argue or lack the aptitude for debate.

Perhaps it's you that is insecure? 'You go boy!'
 
I especially like how you added the fact your a son of a immigrant, does that make you better?

Yup, I added it just because I knew you would 'like' it :D . If you have been paying attention, it was directed at our friend Shah Patel, not you.


Do my edits bother you? So sorry to offend. I don't think there is an SDN policy against editing. BTW, keep up the ad hominem, it just proves my point. 'You go boy!'
 
rads is more competitive than cards.

just because you have a lot of *******es applying to your field and getting rejected and lowering your acceptance rate doesn't make cardiology more competitive.

i think students at competitive (like mgh) would be competitive for any residency, but keep in mind you have a bunch of FMG's and us grads who didn't do well in med school and saw cards as a back door to money.

i respect cardiology, but lets not say BS things like cardiology is more competitive than radiology, especially by quoting penn's cardiology. i'm sure they attract the finest of the finest, la creme de la creme. but what about the local community hospital's cardiology program with the foreign medical graduate who went to islamabad medical college?


Buddy, you have only limited knowledge in this field. Cardiology is more competitive than rads, there is no question about that.

1) Many mediocre AMG candidates get into IM, however there are lot of IM positions available.

2) Outside US, IM is a passion because it is not investigation based. Many FMG's who get into IM really want to do it and they are the best in their entire nation.

3) FMG's who matched into Cards had to be really good. They should have good scores, publications, excellent letters. If u r a mediocre FMG forget about getting into Cards.

4) Even many AMGs and most of the FMGs get into Cards after 1 or 2 years of research experience. These people really adds to the powerhouse of Cards.

5) None of the field in Medicine is more evidence based than Cards. Look at JAMA/NEJM every other issue there will be a Cards related article.
Rad articles come out once in a blue moon. Remember RADS has more money and more time.

So at the end of the day Rads has better students from US; but Cards has the creme of US and the entire world.
 
1) Many mediocre AMG candidates get into IM, however there are lot of IM positions available.

Exactly

2) Outside US, IM is a passion because it is not investigation based. Many FMG's who get into IM really want to do it and they are the best in their entire nation.

What about the few IMG's that get into radiology? They probably had even better scores.

3) FMG's who matched into Cards had to be really good. They should have good scores, publications, excellent letters. If u r a mediocre FMG forget about getting into Cards.

Forget about rads.

4) Even many AMGs and most of the FMGs get into Cards after 1 or 2 years of research experience. These people really adds to the powerhouse of Cards.

A lot of those guys that did the 1-2 years research didn't get into cards the first time around, so they try to bolster their applications for the next time. Failed radiology applicants are also encouraged to do research, but it won't necessarily help them get in the next time around.

5) None of the field in Medicine is more evidence based than Cards. Look at JAMA/NEJM every other issue there will be a Cards related article.
Rad articles come out once in a blue moon. Remember RADS has more money and more time.

True, but the editorial board and contributors to JAMA and NEJM are disproportionately internists and internal medicine specialists. How often do you see medicine articles in surgery journals or radiology journals?

So at the end of the day Rads has better students from US; but Cards has the creme of US and the entire world.

The IMGs we take are very bright, but due to the competitiveness of our field, we take less IMGs to begin with.

I have good friends that went into cardiology and I have done collaborative research with cardiologists. Look, both fields attract bright people. Both fields are very competitive. Cardiology is an excellent field with a bright future. Of course, there are turf issues between our fields, but thats nothing new in medicine. I have issue with those of you that make wholesale generalizations about radiology-- calling us 'lazy', for instance. Do you know me? Do you know any of the other radiologists I work with? Have you spent an entire call night with us? We all work very hard, and we have no tolerance for laziness.

I try to understand where you guys are coming from, I can only hope that you guys do the same for me.
 
A lot of those guys that did the 1-2 years research didn't get into cards the first time around, so they try to bolster their applications for the next time. Failed radiology applicants are also encouraged to do research, but it won't necessarily help them get in the next time around.

I agree with most of what you said; however, your statement here is ludicrous. First of all, unless you're at a top 5-10 program and sit on the admissions committee, there is no way you can say this with much validity. Like cards, research allows you to not only make yourself more competitive by pursuing scholarly work and trying to advance a particular field of interest, but also opens doors through working with well respected people in the field (if you choose to). This isn't limited to cardiology, or radiology, but also true for extremely competitive fields including Plastics, Nsgy, Rad-Onc, etc. Bottom line is, no one knows whether it guarantees anything--heck, nothing in life is guaranteed other than, maybe, dropping the cosby's after a huge taco bell meal, and even then, you may need to rely on that colace if you're a narc addict or didn't eat that healthy breakfast. Even for cards, of course doing a year or two of research won't guarantee anything, nor does it necessarily help if you were counterproductive. So, your statement that research doesn't help failed radiology residents is premature, at best, because unless you sit on the admissions committee and know that applicants who have decent numbers, personable, and utlized that time to do productive research, and this did not help them, then I'd half-heartedly agree with you.

The fact is that I know at least a few people who didn't match, took a year, or took a year between medical school and matched at good places. I just don't think you can say that research will guarantee you a cardiology fellowship, but won't necessarily get you a rads residency. It's the whole package and what you make of that time. Radiology really isn't THAT competitive. And, we also failed to mention, that applicants going into TOP Cards fellowships are equally as bright (objectively on paper) as rads applicants, because they're usually coming from TOP IM programs.

And, also, on that note, I'd like to add--not to say that cardiology fellowships are not attainable from smaller tiered schools right out of IM residency (without having to take time off in between or pursuing a chief year), but certainly it's hard and less common. If you look at a lot of the top 20-possible even 30 cards programs, I am willing to bed that those most of those applicants were US grads and did quite well in med school/and, or residency. And, if you make the division even further, I can almost bet that the top 10 cards programs mostly are taking applicants from the top IM programs, which we all know, is more than likely a quality american medical school graduate. I know of several small radiology programs, even "university affiliated", that takes rads residents with very mediocre numbers, if not below average.

There is no reason to argue about this. Like others have mentioned, both radiologists and cardiologists are smart people. But, for those who like to stroke their ego, that radiology is more competitive than cardiology, there's more to it than just saying it's easier to get into IM than rads, cuz you really can't compare that. I have tried to put a few things in perspective, but even then, it's not as objective as people make it seem.
 
I agree with most of what you said; however, your statement here is ludicrous. First of all, unless you're at a top 5-10 program and sit on the admissions committee, there is no way you can say this with much validity.
Not at a top 5 program, but I am on the rads ad com. I have friends that went to top 5-10 IM and they have had no problems getting cardiology fellowships without taking a year or two to do research. I have one friend in IM from a top program doing a year of research but he's trying for GI, which is more competitive IMO.

I just don't think you can say that research will guarantee you a cardiology fellowship, but won't necessarily get you a rads residency.
I never said it would guarantee a cards fellowship. Research won't necessarily help in getting a rads residency. Like you said, it depends on whether the work was productive or not.

Radiology is a residency, cardiology is a fellowship. Apples and oranges.
There is no reason to argue about this. Like others have mentioned, both radiologists and cardiologists are smart people.

Agreed
 
Firstly ... General Radiology is a Residency .... let's not compare it to an IM fellowship like Cardiology ....:smuggrin:

Secondly ..... comparing each speciality like IM , Peds , Gynae , Rads , Ortho , Neuro , Family med ,Anesthesia , and other specialities is very immature .... each are unique , have certain responsibilites , their limitations ...nature of work and lifestyle differ enormously .... payscales will be different , but as long as you are capable and healthy you will make $$$.:thumbup:

Thirdly ..... some medical fields are less competitive , others more competitive ... and even others impossible ...to get into ... well medical fields are like that but after you do a residency you still need assitance or some consult from other speciality or subspeciality at some point during your practice ...+pity+

Fourthly .... I see some members make their own point of views in this thread ... let's not bash each other as we all belong to the medical field ...
as for those who intend to have a relationship with lawyers ... remember that law is a two edged knife .... you might fall into it one day yourself and might need another doctor in the end to help you out....... while the greedy lawyers suck your hard earned $$$$ :D

Lastly ... try to look into your speciality and try to make $$$$professionally...one cannot judge another speciality just by the $$$ they make .... if $$ is your aim then you should have done that speciality you complain about ....:rolleyes:
 
You guys are so pathetic. Cardiologists are very important. Save lives everyday in the cath lab. Can revascularize coronaries, save hibernating myocardium. Nobody denies that cardiologists have one of the most important jobs in the hospital. Cardiologists are also very good at imaging the heart, both nuclear perfusion and CCTA/MRI. I hate nuclear cardiology, and I hope it continues to reimburse so I don't have to do it.

As for radiologists not being real doctors, does anybody but a radiologist really know what a radiologist does? Sitting in the dark room reading films is only part of the job. We do interventional procedures (on live patients) in almost every subspecialty of radiology. MSK-joint injections, arthrograms (maybe even kyphoplasty and vertebroplasty, Neuro-myelograms, spinal taps, pain management, obviously IR. Body imagers drain abscesses and biopsy tumors, solid organs. Nucs-treat patients with I-131, perform lymphoscintigraphy for metastatic melanoma, Breast-image guided biopsy. Chest imagers biopsy tumors and can place chest tubes for complications from pneumothorax.

Saving lives and not running codes is such a bull**** argument. As the only physicians in the basement, when someone codes on the CT scanner, who is the first responder? By the time the code team actually finds the CT scanners, airways are open, CPR is started and the pads are in place. We deal with anaphylactic contrast reactions not too uncommonly. Unstable patients get sent to radiology without supervision all the time. I've been in on more codes in the last six months than I did as a surgery intern at an academic medical center.

The reason radiology is a field of medicine, is not only because we make findings on an imaging study. With enough training and practice, anyone can make findings. Radiologists should be expected to know the next step in managing the findings and deciding which findings are important and need to be followed or biopsied. We need to make sure an incidental angiomyolipoma of the kidney doesn't buy a patient a partial nephrectomy. I understant that at major academic medical centers, many subspecialists, including cardiologists, vascular surgeons, ENT, urology, orthopedists could care less about what our dictations say. I can also say, that even some cardiologists who don't think radiologists can help them out, still call me in the middle of the night for a second opinion on a CXR, CT aorta. Although I've got no experience in private practice, I can't imaging the subspecialists read all of their own films. Who wants that kind of responsibility and liability?

Please don't flame any specialties in medicine, we are your colleagues. We all perform important roles. We all went to medical school. Just because imagers don't practice clinical medicine or manage patients (we still see real live patients), doesn't mean cardiologists and radiologists aren't professional colleagues. Start acting like the professionals you are.
 
Wow, it's been a while since I made my original post which pointed out the obvious points that it's difficult to compare the comptetitiveness of rads and cards b/c rads residents have over 1 standard deviation higher scores on Step 1 than IM, but cards are the top students in the less competitive IM field. I pointed out that it's like comparing apples and oranges, however at the end of the day, if you take Step 1 scores as your guide, Radiology is probably more competitive.

I also pointed out that both specialties are plenty competitive however, and that both groups contribute a lot to patient care.

Not sure that I've seen a single post since which really adds much to this debate. Even the post saying there were something like 1200 rads applicants for 1000 spots is kind of irrelevant, considering that derm probably has similar ratios, and no one's about to argue that cardiology is more competitive than derm. At the end of the day, rads residents probably have higher Step Scores than cards residents. That's truth that no amount of clever repartee on this board can change. I can give you some numbers and anecdotes. But who cares? Cards are trained in things Rads can't do, and Rads are trained in things Cards can't do.

The elephant in the room is MONEY. That's why people care. You guys complain about lawyers? At least lawyers are being rational and working for their field's own good. We are are knocking down other MEDICAL specialties, eating our own, to discredit them so that we can get reimbursement for procedures. That's the true underlying issue to this argument. The fact of radiology being more competitive is only important b/c admitting it makes it harder to weaken the field of radiology politically to get the MONEY for reimbursement. That's pitiful, but true. The rhetoric and hyperbole we see, like rads are "techs", only makes sense when viewed in this cynical light. Sometimes we doctors can make lawyers seem relatively ethical. Pretty sad.
 
Wow, it's been a while since I made my original post which pointed out the obvious points that it's difficult to compare the comptetitiveness of rads and cards b/c rads residents have over 1 standard deviation higher scores on Step 1 than IM, but cards are the top students in the less competitive IM field. I pointed out that it's like comparing apples and oranges, however at the end of the day, if you take Step 1 scores as your guide, Radiology is probably more competitive.

I also pointed out that both specialties are plenty competitive however, and that both groups contribute a lot to patient care.

Not sure that I've seen a single post since which really adds much to this debate. Even the post saying there were something like 1200 rads applicants for 1000 spots is kind of irrelevant, considering that derm probably has similar ratios, and no one's about to argue that cardiology is more competitive than derm. At the end of the day, rads residents probably have higher Step Scores than cards residents. That's truth that no amount of clever repartee on this board can change. I can give you some numbers and anecdotes. But who cares? Cards are trained in things Rads can't do, and Rads are trained in things Cards can't do.

The elephant in the room is MONEY. That's why people care. You guys complain about lawyers? At least lawyers are being rational and working for their field's own good. We are are knocking down other MEDICAL specialties, eating our own, to discredit them so that we can get reimbursement for procedures. That's the true underlying issue to this argument. The fact of radiology being more competitive is only important b/c admitting it makes it harder to weaken the field of radiology politically to get the MONEY for reimbursement. That's pitiful, but true. The rhetoric and hyperbole we see, like rads are "techs", only makes sense when viewed in this cynical light. Sometimes we doctors can make lawyers seem relatively ethical. Pretty sad.

What are you lamenting here? What does this post add to the conversation? Go law school you jack as
 
Looks like I hit a nerve with someone. Can I pass you a box of kleenex?

Especially this whine: "Look I can honestly tell you I make more difference....."
I am not arguing your point here, I agree you made absolutely no difference with your time in Internal Medicine.

Hey everyone, take a look at the other posts from this guy...he spends all of his life, going to other specialty forums where he gets up on his soapbox and preaches about how life would not go on without his specialty.

Listen, man. You obviously have some mental problems to deal with. I'll leave you alone so you can do that. Maybe you need some counseling.

If someone insults my specialty, which I have worked long and hard to be good at, I will defend it. Since you obviously have little experience with the day to day practice of radiology, I figured I'd give you some information from someone who does it every day. I enjoy my work and am comfortable with the good I do for patients, even if I don't get to see the patient directly. I geuss actual discussion and adult discourse are not something you're interested in. It seems that the majority of your posts have the sole purpose of insulting radiology or individuals who dare to respond to your posts. Good for you. If this is what it takes for you to feel good about yourself, go for it. Just realize that its quite pathetic and counter-productive.
 
I don't think TransFatsRGood has posted a single post that is actually related to cardiology. In fact all his posts in the cardiology forum are in opposition to radiology or ad hominem attacks against posters affiliated with radiology. He's contributed nothing positive to the forum-- even his screen name is useless. This guy has issues.
 
Cards have more to worry than picking a fight with rads.

Most angioplasties are unnecessary, study finds
Procedure gave only slight temporary pain relief; drugs are just as effective

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17800298/

This just means that IR's are in more trouble because interventional cardiologist will now invade rad procedures even more. I guess rads have much more to worry about.
 
This just means that IR's are in more trouble because interventional cardiologist will now invade rad procedures even more. I guess rads have much more to worry about.

We'll be fine. Radiology is all about innovation. Chemoembo, RFA oncologic interventions are the wave of the future. Directed radiotherapy and gene therapy will be huge in the near future and IR we'll be there first. What cardiology and vascular surgery have taught us is that if you want to keep the procedures, you have to become more clinical. The new generation of IRs are taking a more clinical stance.

Peripheral vascular interventions are 15-50% of IR practices today. IR is a very diversified field. What ever we lose in older procedures like peripheral revascularization (reimbursement in this has already gone down quite a bit anyways), we make up for with newer cutting edge procedures.

If anything there are too many interventional cardiologists to all do coronary work and as a result of overflow people are being pushed into peripheral interventions. It seems that peripheral intervention is a fellowship in its own, independent of cardiac interventions. No?
 
This is the second study in a few weeks time that has shown that stents aren't the godsend we once thought. This doesn't bode well for interventional cards.

Interventional cards have to come up with something pretty soon to keep themselves busy.
 
This is the second study in a few weeks time that has shown that stents aren't the godsend we once thought. This doesn't bode well for interventional cards.

Interventional cards have to come up with something pretty soon to keep themselves busy.

My guess is that general cardiologist will be the big benefactors of this study because all those patients who were potential stent candidates will now have to go back to the general cards for long term management with medications. In the long run, IC's lost and gen cards gained and nobody lost.:thumbup: They also should have studied the effects of using both stenting and light cardiac medications. Maybe both could have had a better synergistic effect on cardiac patients. But i know drug companies will never want to study that. Everything is just business these days. It should be all about the patients and whats best for them.
 
Cards have more to worry than picking a fight with rads.

Most angioplasties are unnecessary, study finds
Procedure gave only slight temporary pain relief; drugs are just as effective

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17800298/

Anyone have any idea what percentage of LHC's are done for Acute coronary syndrome versus stable angina? It seems that majority caths are done on inpatients admitted for Chest pain with a positive Functional test/NSTEMI/ or obviously STEMI. From a brief read of the above link it appears that they were referring soley to stable angina.
 
Anyone have any idea what percentage of LHC's are done for Acute coronary syndrome versus stable angina? It seems that majority caths are done on inpatients admitted for Chest pain with a positive Functional test/NSTEMI/ or obviously STEMI. From a brief read of the above link it appears that they were referring soley to stable angina.

Nevermind, just found the study, all the info is there.
 
We'll be fine. Radiology is all about innovation. Chemoembo, RFA oncologic interventions are the wave of the future. Directed radiotherapy and gene therapy will be huge in the near future and IR we'll be there first. What cardiology and vascular surgery have taught us is that if you want to keep the procedures, you have to become more clinical. The new generation of IRs are taking a more clinical stance.

Peripheral vascular interventions are 15-50% of IR practices today. IR is a very diversified field. What ever we lose in older procedures like peripheral revascularization (reimbursement in this has already gone down quite a bit anyways), we make up for with newer cutting edge procedures.

If anything there are too many interventional cardiologists to all do coronary work and as a result of overflow people are being pushed into peripheral interventions. It seems that peripheral intervention is a fellowship in its own, independent of cardiac interventions. No?


I just gather that some Scan centers in Califorinia have contracts with scan centers in Ireland , England , India , Australia , HongKong , Dubai , Singapore . It seems that the final read is certified in US .... I guess that the future for Rads in US is towards IR . Though some of it will be outsourced all across the globe becos the Medicare and hospitals would look for these loopholes I feel that Rads would survive this phenomenon ....as for Cards they would certainly venture into the lucrative rads procedures but the game is wide open and the next ten years from now would benefit medical science and the professionals as well ...
 
You guys are so pathetic. Cardiologists are very important. Save lives everyday in the cath lab. Can revascularize coronaries, save hibernating myocardium. Nobody denies that cardiologists have one of the most important jobs in the hospital. Cardiologists are also very good at imaging the heart, both nuclear perfusion and CCTA/MRI. I hate nuclear cardiology, and I hope it continues to reimburse so I don't have to do it.

As for radiologists not being real doctors, does anybody but a radiologist really know what a radiologist does? Sitting in the dark room reading films is only part of the job. We do interventional procedures (on live patients) in almost every subspecialty of radiology. MSK-joint injections, arthrograms (maybe even kyphoplasty and vertebroplasty, Neuro-myelograms, spinal taps, pain management, obviously IR. Body imagers drain abscesses and biopsy tumors, solid organs. Nucs-treat patients with I-131, perform lymphoscintigraphy for metastatic melanoma, Breast-image guided biopsy. Chest imagers biopsy tumors and can place chest tubes for complications from pneumothorax.

Saving lives and not running codes is such a bull**** argument. As the only physicians in the basement, when someone codes on the CT scanner, who is the first responder? By the time the code team actually finds the CT scanners, airways are open, CPR is started and the pads are in place. We deal with anaphylactic contrast reactions not too uncommonly. Unstable patients get sent to radiology without supervision all the time. I've been in on more codes in the last six months than I did as a surgery intern at an academic medical center.

The reason radiology is a field of medicine, is not only because we make findings on an imaging study. With enough training and practice, anyone can make findings. Radiologists should be expected to know the next step in managing the findings and deciding which findings are important and need to be followed or biopsied. We need to make sure an incidental angiomyolipoma of the kidney doesn't buy a patient a partial nephrectomy. I understant that at major academic medical centers, many subspecialists, including cardiologists, vascular surgeons, ENT, urology, orthopedists could care less about what our dictations say. I can also say, that even some cardiologists who don't think radiologists can help them out, still call me in the middle of the night for a second opinion on a CXR, CT aorta. Although I've got no experience in private practice, I can't imaging the subspecialists read all of their own films. Who wants that kind of responsibility and liability?

Please don't flame any specialties in medicine, we are your colleagues. We all perform important roles. We all went to medical school. Just because imagers don't practice clinical medicine or manage patients (we still see real live patients), doesn't mean cardiologists and radiologists aren't professional colleagues. Start acting like the professionals you are.



well said!
 
i can't believe radiology and cardiology is even being compared. That's like comparing family practice and cardiothoracic surgery. Or like comparing a buick le sabre with a ferrari 599 GTB. Respectively.
 
but what about the local community hospital's cardiology program with the foreign medical graduate who went to islamabad medical college?

I don't care where you went to school, there are guys at islamabad medical college that can PWN you any day of the week on rounds.

(Sorry for the double-post...just had to respond after reading nutjob's comment)
 
I don't care where you went to school, there are guys at islamabad medical college that can PWN you any day of the week on rounds.

(Sorry for the double-post...just had to respond after reading nutjob's comment)

alright, i wrote that i wouldn't comment on this thread but i've been isolated. please allow me to clear up any misconception. the only thing i have said about cardiology is that it is less competitive than radiology -- and i stand by what i said.

first let me say i have nothing against cardiologists. they're doing incredibly important and noble work, they're the most respected physician in a hospital at any one time, and they impress the ladies. and you have to be a gifted intellectual to undestand a lot of cardiology, like EP, etc.

but i really do believe rads is more compeitive. that's just how it is and this does not take away from cardiology one bit. i brought up islamabad medical college to emphasize that a field that has a lot of FMGs is by definition less competitive than a field without as many FMGs. the % of fmg's in a field is a mark of a field's competitiveness. a little controversial, i know, but you better believe program directors would choose a 4 star AMG over a 5 star FMG in any field of medicine.

i love fmg's. my best residents in medical school so far have been fmg's. they're all brilliant. i have nothing against fmg's. i admit i probably would get 'pwned' by an islamabad medical college graduate during rounds (THANK GOD I WON'T HAVE TO DO THAT TOO OFTEN ANYMORE!). but the fact remains, % of fmg's in a field is a mark of its competitiveness.

i think this meaningless discussion should end. they're both incredibly competitive and coveted. i still think one more than the other but who cares. this is a stupid battle between egos and nothing more. how else did you expect the rads community to respond when rads is considered a hyped speciality?
 
how else did you expect the rads community to respond when rads is considered a hyped speciality?[/QUOTE]



Because they are not real Doctors :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: . I'm just joking. Just trying to have fun with this raging debate. Bottom line is: "All doctors are equal but some are more equal than the others-period." This is not just in the medical profession, but everywhere-politics, business, law, etc. Now, the one that is more equal to any given individual is based on the persons need at that moment. In order words, its all subjective.
 
nutcancer, I appreciate your post. You have redeemed yourself in the eyes of FMGs everywhere.

And for everyone else, don't take my rads vs cards comments too seriously, I just like to see people get riled up over a meaningless subject. Does it really matter which one is more competitive? I'm interested in cards because I love cards, not because of how competitive it is and how much prestige will come with it. Otherwise I'd be going for neurosurgery or CT surgery. But the gods chose a different path for me, so I shall follow that path. To each his own.
 
Don't forget about the ultimate measure of "competitiveness".

Radiology has much fewer IMGs and FMGs than Cardiology.

Nuff said.
 
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