Radiation Oncology Metrics

[thecarbonionangle]

500k by 4th-5th year is a reasonable expectation per the experience of multiple people i know, in more private set ups..

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[Mandelin Rain]

At least for me in all the private offers I was considering when I graduated, 500k was about normal for what to expect as partner. This was not rare. my friends all had the same experience, including a few that are graduating this year. I don't feel like 500k is rare.

Academics is a different beast of course.

500k by 4th-5th year is a reasonable expectation per the experience of multiple people i know, in more private set ups..

Agreed. If you're working full time in a PP, are moderately busy, and not making at least around 500k at 5 years, chances are you're being taken advantage of.

 

[Burt Radnolds]

Agreed. If you're working full time in a PP, are moderately busy, and not making at least around 500k at 5 years, chances are you're being taken advantage of.

There is a lot of doom and gloom that gets thrown around, and I fully concur that all signs point south, but for now this is completely accurate. There are also many people in similar situations, not necessarily out in the sticks, making significantly more than this, I can think of a handful and they all got out within the last 10 years.

 

[Neuronix]

I'm sitting in academics. I interviewed for both PP and academics in several regions. I was told everywhere I interviewed that I was being hired at $300k give or take and would max out in the $400s. It was very similar PP or academics, so I went into academics.

I guess better salaries are out there? I know a lot of people looking. I do know other people who graduated around the same time as me who are several years out like me both in PP or academics who are also making $300k-$400k. Could be regional or just a shortage of quality jobs.

 

[Doctorer]

FWIW, my friends in PP are seeing numbers well above 300-400 after making partner. Does anyone have a recent copy of the academic data? What's considered "mid-career" in any case? Any time after passing boards?

 

[radoncgrad2019]

I'm sitting in academics. I interviewed for both PP and academics in several regions. I was told everywhere I interviewed that I was being hired at $300k give or take and would max out in the $400s. It was very similar PP or academics, so I went into academics.

I guess better salaries are out there? I know a lot of people looking. I do know other people who graduated around the same time as me who are several years out like me both in PP or academics who are also making $300k-$400k. Could be regional or just a shortage of quality jobs.

The numbers and all the anectodes suggest your experience is not the norm

 

[Neuronix]

What numbers are you looking for? I posted references to all of the benchmarks in post #14.

AAMC associate professor median total compensation is $452k.

 

[radoncgrad2019]

You said in your experience people in both academics and PP several years out are making 300k - 400k.

The stat you just posted suggests that the numbers are differing, and that’s just for academics. The PP numbers are even higher.

That’s what I meant by the numbers suggest your experience may not be the norm

 

[medgator]

You said in your experience people in both academics and PP several years out are making 300k - 400k.

The stat you just posted suggests that the numbers are differing, and that’s just for academics. The PP numbers are even higher.

That’s what I meant by the numbers suggest your experience may not be the norm

Geography plays a big role imo.

Desirable areas in the West coast and southeast can distort things

 

[Neuronix]

400s I meant and wrote in my prior post. Apologies.

Maybe my experience is not the norm, but I'm being 100% honest with you about my experience. I know of higher paying positions, but I was unable to get them. I'm not the only one one who feels this way.

I am not restricted to desirable locales, but a lot of employers are looking for "connections" to their area that I simply don't have. I'm not actively looking right now for various reasons anyway, just relating prior experiences.

 

[evilbooyaa]

400s I meant and wrote in my prior post. Apologies.

Maybe my experience is not the norm, but I'm being 100% honest with you about my experience. I know of higher paying positions, but I was unable to get them. I'm not the only one one who feels this way.

I am not restricted to desirable locales, but a lot of employers are looking for "connections" to their area that I simply don't have. I'm not actively looking right now for various reasons anyway, just relating prior experiences.

The bolded continues to be a source of frustration for me. "No I do not have connections to your major metro. I want to live here though, like a lot. Please hire me."

 

[deleted1002574]

Well, it is something people actively look far. But, for a good partner track job it really shouldn’t matter. We seldom had associates that had true ties to the area. Once in a while it happened, but we didn’t care or think of it is a pre-req.

OTOH, if I were applying now, I’d pay for a cousin to relocate there and then just tell the group how my closest cousin lives in Austin or whatever and that I love Jester King and Uchiko and Shipping container bars and I’d maim my second favorite to live there.

 

[deleted941485]

I think in 5-10 years most of clinical medicine will have a break even to negative ROI even after the govt forgives loans. Im wary of PP both PC and TC in this environment. Seeing more and more patients year after year just doesn’t seem like a viable solution. I would rather spend the time climbing the corporate ladder with buzzwords and other nonsense and get out at 5.

I just don’t have the patience anymore

 

[medgator]

I think in 5-10 years most of clinical medicine will have a break even to negative ROI even after the govt forgives loans. Im wary of PP both PC and TC in this environment. Seeing more and more patients year after year just doesn’t seem like a viable solution. I would rather spend the time climbing the corporate ladder with buzzwords and other nonsense and get out at 5.

I just don’t have the patience anymore

 

[deleted941485]

Coming up on 4 years and I can’t wait to retire.

 

[Mandelin Rain]

Hahaha what kind of hot nonsense is this? Comp has plummeted in less than a decade from “good chance you’ll make $800k+ by mid career” to “you’ll be lucky to get $500k or even a job in a decent place” and you’re telling medical students that in another decade when they hit mid career they’ll be making $500k?

It’s called a trajectory, son. In ten years you’ll be on here telling them “If you are okay making 250k and living in Topeka and don't see that as worthless, then you will be happy in this field.”

To be fair, the 800k moment was pretty short.

But yeah, 800k in 2004/2005 was A LOT of money. It was more than twice the minimum NBA salary at the time. It wasn't quite Diddy money, but you definitely had Benjis to throw around. It's difficult to impress upon people how different the lifestyle you could lead making 800k in 2004 compared to 500k in 2019. If it's 350k in 2025, everyone will be fine. No one will starve. But you may be throwing around Washingtons and/or at most Lincolns.

It's also difficult to impress upon people what the atmosphere was like at that time. ASTROs were lavish parties and everyone wanted to be in your good graces. They all wanted you to come work with them, or get into industry, or buy a linac, or something. There were scantily clad women around handing out drinks at the Varian event. Elekta, GE, Siemens all had parties. Tomo had parties. It was non-stop. Felt like rock star medicine for nerds. Then 2008 happened. We got in the CMS cross hairs. The rest is history.

[In case anyone is wondering, the minimum NBA contract for a rookie this year is 580k]

 

[medgator]

.

But yeah, 800k in 2004/2005 was A LOT of money. It was more than twice the minimum NBA salary at the time. It wasn't quite Diddy money, but you definitely had Benjis to throw around. It's difficult to impress upon people how different the lifestyle you could lead making 800k in 2004 compared to 500k in 2019. If it's 350k in 2025, everyone will be fine. No one will starve. But you may be throwing around Washingtons and/or at most Lincolns.

It's also difficult to impress upon people what the atmosphere was like at that time. ASTROs were lavish parties and everyone wanted to be in your good graces. They all wanted you to come work with them, or get into industry, or buy a linac, or something. There were scantily clad women around handing out drinks at the Varian event. Elekta, GE, Siemens all had parties. Tomo had parties. It was non-stop. Felt like rock star medicine for nerds. Then 2008 happened. We got in the CMS cross hairs. The rest is history.

[In case anyone is wondering, the minimum NBA contract for a rookie this year is 580k]

Peak rad onc

 

[deleted941485]

Peak rad onc

People come up with all kinds of ways to tell themselves it’s totally fine while they get F’ed in the A. 300K in 2030 you won’t be going anywhere.

I don’t even bother talking to this newbies that come through here that get all wide eyed at 350K. I instantly lose respect for them. You e already told me everything I need to know about your non clinical personality. You’re cheap and docile

 

[medgator]

People come up with all kinds of ways to tell themselves it’s totally fine while they get F’ed in the A. 300K in 2030 you won’t be going anywhere.

I don’t even bother talking to this newbies that come through here that get all wide eyed at 350K. I instantly lose respect for them in that instant. You e already told me everything I need to know about your non clinical personality. You’re cheap and docile

It's like saying you're thrilled you finally got to buy GE shares at $15 when it was $30 previously because, in reality, it got cheaper because they made a bunch of stupid business decisions and acquisitions.

And then two years later, it's $8 because you ignored the trajectory and what the folks at the helm were actually doing with the underlying business.

 

[RadOncDoc21]

To be fair, the 800k moment was pretty short.

But yeah, 800k in 2004/2005 was A LOT of money. It was more than twice the minimum NBA salary at the time. It wasn't quite Diddy money, but you definitely had Benjis to throw around. It's difficult to impress upon people how different the lifestyle you could lead making 800k in 2004 compared to 500k in 2019. If it's 350k in 2025, everyone will be fine. No one will starve. But you may be throwing around Washingtons and/or at most Lincolns.

It's also difficult to impress upon people what the atmosphere was like at that time. ASTROs were lavish parties and everyone wanted to be in your good graces. They all wanted you to come work with them, or get into industry, or buy a linac, or something. There were scantily clad women around handing out drinks at the Varian event. Elekta, GE, Siemens all had parties. Tomo had parties. It was non-stop. Felt like rock star medicine for nerds. Then 2008 happened. We got in the CMS cross hairs. The rest is history.

[In case anyone is wondering, the minimum NBA contract for a rookie this year is 580k]

Make Rad Onc Great Again (MR OGA)!

 

[Doctorer]

Peak rad onc

Is there anything boomers won't ruin?

 

[thecarbonionangle]

To be fair, the 800k moment was pretty short.

But yeah, 800k in 2004/2005 was A LOT of money. It was more than twice the minimum NBA salary at the time. It wasn't quite Diddy money, but you definitely had Benjis to throw around. It's difficult to impress upon people how different the lifestyle you could lead making 800k in 2004 compared to 500k in 2019. If it's 350k in 2025, everyone will be fine. No one will starve. But you may be throwing around Washingtons and/or at most Lincolns.

It's also difficult to impress upon people what the atmosphere was like at that time. ASTROs were lavish parties and everyone wanted to be in your good graces. They all wanted you to come work with them, or get into industry, or buy a linac, or something. There were scantily clad women around handing out drinks at the Varian event. Elekta, GE, Siemens all had parties. Tomo had parties. It was non-stop. Felt like rock star medicine for nerds. Then 2008 happened. We got in the CMS cross hairs. The rest is history.

[In case anyone is wondering, the minimum NBA contract for a rookie this year is 580k]

Any ripped hunks walking around passing out drinks at these lavish parties? Man the baby boomers are the worst.

 

[Mandelin Rain]

Any ripped hunks walking around passing out drinks at these lavish parties? Man the baby boomers are the worst.

No. This was pre-Jagsi. Just a bunch of nerdy dudes in new suits loving every minute of it, but also kind of shocked to be out of the basement and discovering natural light.

 

[deleted18755]

No. This was pre-Jagsi. Just a bunch of nerdy dudes in new suits loving every minute of it, but also kind of shocked to be out of the basement and discovering natural light.

I only went to ASTRO every few years (it was much harder to get CME's back then) and can verify for a fact that for years every night during ASTRO there was at least 1 and oftentimes 2-3 dinner parties that were literally nicer than my wedding (I'm not joking they would literally buy out entire venues like an aquarium or museum of art in a major city and/or straight up aircraft carrier/huge ship in San Diego) with shrimp, steak, and lobster and open bars with an almost uncomfortable number of good looking people following us nerds around like we were king!

I wonder what it's like now for chairs and senior faculty who go to smaller conferences (I can't imagine those guys who are out of town for half the year at meetings and conferences while the resident(s) hold down the clinic are taking Uber and eating at Wendy's while staying at budget motels!)

 

[deleted573262]

I only went to ASTRO every few years (it was much harder to get CME's back then) and can verify for a fact that for years every night during ASTRO there was at least 1 and oftentimes 2-3 dinner parties that were literally nicer than my wedding (I'm not joking they would literally buy out entire venues like an aquarium or museum of art in a major city and/or straight up aircraft carrier/huge ship in San Diego) with shrimp, steak, and lobster and open bars with an almost uncomfortable number of good looking people following us nerds around like we were king!

I wonder what it's like now for chairs and senior faculty who go to smaller conferences (I can't imagine those guys who are out of town for half the year at meetings and conferences while the resident(s) hold down the clinic are taking Uber and eating at Wendy's while staying at budget motels!)

My dept chair told me it's awful. The worst. Here's a pic from the last hotel he stayed at during his conference:

 

[CyberKnife19]

Bump...just to see if anyone has any recent data as to the number of wRVU's per Radiation Oncologist currently?

Also, when looking at post #17 of this thread, what is included in “Total RVU” that is not included in work RVU?

Thanks!

 

[sirspamalot]

anything under 10k RVU .. #

busier? Time to have a chat..