Rad Onc ERAS 2023 Application Discussion

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thecarbonionangle

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I saw this and found it really interesting. After looking at this it is evident the field matching game has changed dramatically. When we applied at the height of competitiveness the wisdom was, just be happy you get A spot anywhere, only to be told by graduation to be happy if you even get A job anywhere (truly a wonderful field!). Multiple posters here failed to match the first time. Horror stories happened yearly. Many people applied to every program spending over 10k just to match anywhere. Now even the FMGs are appplying to like half the programs. I conclude from this we will see many spots once again in SOAP.

Therefore, i will ring the opening bell. Let the soap games begin and may the odds be forever in your favour! The usual SOAPers are hard at work once again looking for fresh lukewarm blood.

What do you think folks? Anyone see if differently?

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I saw this and found it really interesting. After looking at this it is evident the field matching game has changed dramatically. When we applied at the height of competitiveness the wisdom was, just be happy you get A spot anywhere, only to be told by graduation to be happy if you even get A job anywhere (truly a wonderful field!). Multiple posters here failed to match the first time. Horror stories happened yearly. Many people applied to every program spending over 10k just to match anywhere. Now even the FMGs are appplying to like half the programs. I conclude from this we will see many spots once again in SOAP.

Therefore, i will ring the opening bell. Let the soap games begin and may the odds be forever in your favour! The usual SOAPers are hard at work once again looking for fresh lukewarm blood.

What do you think folks? Anyone see if differently?
I heard this came out yesterday when I was messaged about the number -

Preliminary data is that 255 people applied to RadOnc this year, which is the most since 2019.

I was messaged with precisely that - "applications are up!"

While it appears that there are indeed ~20 more US MDs than last year, the increase in IMG and DO applicants is like a rocketship.

Going from memory, I think it was 76 IMG and 26 DO.

Now, for the love of God people, I don't want to see a 3 month argument on here about DO vs MD etc etc etc. It's not 1995.

I realized that the residents of today don't know what it was like 10 years ago. If you're a resident right now, or even an M4 - you weren't even in med school during peak competitiveness. 255 used to be the regular number.

But chiefly: in 2015, for example, whatever the preliminary number was, it was 95% US MD, and it was all AOA with 260 Step 1 scores. I'm exaggerating slightly but...only slightly.

And they weren't applying to a second specialty.

And almost zero DOs and IMG.

So my main question in 2023 seeing 255:

How many of those people are dual, or more, applied?

I bet quite a lot.
 
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I heard this came out yesterday when I was messaged about the number -

Preliminary data is that 255 people applied to RadOnc this year, which is the most since 2019.

I was messaged with precisely that - "applications are up!"

While it appears that there are indeed ~20 more US MDs than last year, the increase in IMG and DO applicants is like a rocketship.

Going from memory, I think it was 76 IMG and 26 DO.

Now, for the love of God people, I don't want to see a 3 month argument on here about DO vs MD etc etc etc. It's not 1995.

I realized that the residents of today don't know what it was like 10 years ago. If you're a resident right now, or even an M4 - you weren't even in med school during peak competitiveness. 255 used to be the regular number.

But chiefly: in 2015, for example, whatever the preliminary number was, it was 95% US MD, and it was all AOA with 260 Step 1 scores. I'm exaggerating slightly but...only slightly.

And they weren't applying to a second specialty.

And almost zero DOs and IMG.

So my main question in 2023 seeing 255:

How many of those people are dual, or more, applied?

I bet quite a lot.
Yes! There it is lol. I knew there would be a way to spin it to say field interest is up, never been better. Always good to hear what people are thinking. Thank you for sharing what you were messaged. Nothing to see here. Move along.
 
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I heard this came out yesterday when I was messaged about the number -

Preliminary data is that 255 people applied to RadOnc this year, which is the most since 2019.

I was messaged with precisely that - "applications are up!"

While it appears that there are indeed ~20 more US MDs than last year, the increase in IMG and DO applicants is like a rocketship.

Going from memory, I think it was 76 IMG and 26 DO.

Now, for the love of God people, I don't want to see a 3 month argument on here about DO vs MD etc etc etc. It's not 1995.

I realized that the residents of today don't know what it was like 10 years ago. If you're a resident right now, or even an M4 - you weren't even in med school during peak competitiveness. 255 used to be the regular number.

But chiefly: in 2015, for example, whatever the preliminary number was, it was 95% US MD, and it was all AOA with 260 Step 1 scores. I'm exaggerating slightly but...only slightly.

And they weren't applying to a second specialty.

And almost zero DOs and IMG.

So my main question in 2023 seeing 255:

How many of those people are dual, or more, applied?

I bet quite a lot.

Look at this chart of EM. It is fascinating. Super thankful for Carmody writing this stuff up so quickly.

I haven't had any time to dive in to this yet, but Im very interested to follow this year. Its nice to see applications per student down for all fields and remain low in Rad Onc. Great for students wallets, tough for programs.


1698328499237.png
 
One more interesting post from an RO PGY1 Mary Mahoney showing some application data for MD, DO, and IMG.

It's funny and frustrating that this PGY1 who hasn't yet started residency is more thoughtful about our match than most in our field.




1698329927243.png
 
Our specialty is flooded with low quality candidates who will ultimately have a difficult time getting through boards and finding any kind of satisfying financially stable employment. Yeah, I said it.

Unless you are going to one of THE top 10 programs, and plan to be in academia or have a friend of the family who owns/can get you into the radonc owned multispecialty clinic powerhouse in the location you want to be..

RUN
 
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Our specialty is flooded with low quality candidates who will ultimately have a difficult time getting through boards and finding any kind of satisfying financially stable employment. Yeah, I said it.

I partially disagree. I have no faith that the level considered "passing" for oral boards will remain constant. As applicant quality decreases, I suspect the threshold to pass someone will decline as well.
 
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I partially disagree. I have no faith that the level considered "passing" for oral boards will remain constant. As applicant quality decreases, I suspect the threshold to pass someone will decline as well.
wow

some of you people really overestimate yourselves and really underestimate medical school grads.
 
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Talent is talent. In professional sports, "being a swell guy" doesn't get you paid. Its numbers. And numbers alone to meet the threshold of excellence required to play at the highest level.

Step I scores were an excellent predictor of long term success, but its gone now. It'll remain to be seen if Step 2 holds up similarly, it didn't previously (because no one cared about Step 2 or 3 scores).

When the lights come on and the band stops playing, its showtime.

Of course, for a medical specialist we don't all have to be insanely great. But we do have to meet the minimum standard. The big question is, will that minimum standard be eroded?

big brother whatever GIF by Big Brother After Dark
 
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wow

some of you people really overestimate yourselves and really underestimate medical school grads.
During peak rad onc I met a variety of people at away rotations and on the interview trail. There are a lot of dumb and lazy people out there. More will be matching into rad onc now than then.
 
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Man, I love to believe I’m better and smarter then everyone but our field isn’t rocket science. If anything, we’re fooling ourselves believing we’re special. The way we complicate breast cancer is an example of how inefficient we are as a field.
 
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"Welcome, ladies and gentleman, to the 2023 Internet Message Board Nuance Olympics. I'm your host Bob Costas sitting alongside my partner, Ric Flair. The games open tonight with Elementary School Economics attempting what is widely considered to be the most difficult routine in all of internet wordsmithing, namely, talking about USMLE scores and degrees and being a good doctor and the definition of competitiveness. Many people counseled him against this. He himself told himself not to attempt this. But at the end of the day, the people want the show, and he wants to give it to them."

Jokes aside -

I fundamentally believe certain things about our existence on this planet:
  • There are multiple different types of intelligence. If you can draw a photorealistic sketch of the ocean but are illiterate, I would still consider you "smart".
  • Modern-era, Western academics rewards and place value on a certain type of skill and behavior.
  • Modern-era, Western society and culture reveres certain roles and achievements over others.
  • There is no singular definition of a "good doctor".
I could go on. You get the point.

I would define "competitiveness" as something that only exists within the arena you are assessing, and hold to the rules that arena has deemed "important" in that time.

Classically, a "competitive" medical student entering the American Match was measured on metrics such as class rank/grades, USMLE scores (specifically Step 1), number and quality (and type) of publications, prestige of medical school, and so on.

Again, we all know what I'm talking about.

For almost 20 years, Radiation Oncology was one of the most competitive specialties in the Match, as defined by the measured parameters at the time.

Those parameters may or may not influence skill as a doctor. Those parameters have not always been of critical importance, will not always be of critical importance, and in fact have already shifted in the last 5-10 years.

I Matched during peak competitiveness. I know where I stood, as measured by the metrics considered important at the time. I know the general measures of my cohort as well.

I can't comment on if I'm a good doctor or not, in independent practice. I'd like to think I am, but - what does that mean? Maybe something I'm doing that I think is "good" is thought of as "bad" by my patient: who is right? Is anyone right? Other than actively murdering people definitely being "wrong"...I don't know.

Every year this always goes down the same spiral. I would frame it as such:

If you are trying to assess the "health" of the RadOnc Match, you need to hold your variables constant. If you think just the raw number of applicants matters, fine, you can do that.

But if you try to drill down further, you HAVE to make some uncomfortable judgements. And personally, I think that's OK - because ultimately, none of the metrics we have EVER devised have ever been able to concretely define if a person is a "good doctor" or not.

I know I'm talking into the wind. I know how this plays out, and I know it will play out again and again.

For me, I can definitely say I don't care about the preliminary total number of applicants. When I see the breakdown of that number, with MD/DO/IMG, I view that breakdown through the lens of the rules of the arena. It tells me something about JUST the Match. It tells me nothing about those individual people or what kind of Radiation Oncologist they may or may not be - depending on how many dual- and triple-applicants there are.

And you can lie to me and say you don't. But I know the truth.

"WOOOOOO"

"Well there you have it folks, Ric Flair certainly was impressed by the technical nature of the routine. But what will the judges think? Let's go to our floor reporter, Bill Nye the Science Guy..."
 
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These are impressive numbers to match an ASTRO cementing the “less radiation is acceptable” trend of the last 10 years. Shame on anyone applying who didn’t read the last work force projection. For those who did and applied anyway, good luck.
 
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Yes, radonc is not rocket science, but neither is doing due deligence on the specialty and realizing it is a dumpster fire. US MD Applicants have terrible judgement.
 
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Yes, radonc is not rocket science, but neither is doing due deligence on the specialty and realizing it is a dumpster fire. US MD Applicants have terrible judgement.

There have always been and always will be that choose less competitive fields out of genuine interest or lifestyle fits. It has always happened and always will happen. You can call it a dumpster fire on sdn or Twitter replies a million times and that will still be the case.
 
There have always been and always will be that choose less competitive fields out of genuine interest or lifestyle fits. It has always happened and always will happen. You can call it a dumpster fire on sdn or Twitter replies a million times and that will still be the case.
Disagree. There have always been less competitive specialties, but not ones with looming unemployment. That risk is uniwue
 
Don’t think a work force projection paper that concludes we could already be overtrained by 1700 residents and due to demographic certainties will be overtrained by 2030 for decades to come syncs up with “choosing a field for lifestyle choices or interest”. Unless your lifestyle choice or interest is being unemployed or exploited. Maybe that’s in now.
 
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look anyone is welcome to think they're total drooling idiots all you want. it ultimately doesn't matter one iota, so go nuts.
 
I first started lurking around this forum in 2012/2013. at the time there were many threads like this, but I also agreed with people who had posted in there that they had looked into other fields and they still found this the most interesting/attractive. things have changed and there is more data since then, but I imagine some US MD medical students still feel like some of us did at the time, even though clearly many are now looking elsewhere, it won't be all of them, like it or not.

 
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At the end of the day, try as hard as our legacy leadership might, radiotherapy probably won't disappear in our lifetime as a modality.

Then, try as hard as the tech giants might, AI won't replace all parts of our workflow (don't become a dosimetrist though).

I view Radiation Oncology as Medicine's NFL.

Do you sort of chuckle when you hear a kid say he's "gonna play football" when you ask what he wants to be when he grows up?

Sure. Because you know the odds.

Every year, do new players enter the NFL?

Yes. And it's not a good time for many of them, but the Tom Brady and and Deion Sanders of the world still exist too.

A med student telling me they don't want to do anything but RadOnc is Medicine's "I'm going pro".
 
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At the end of the day, try as hard as our legacy leadership might, radiotherapy probably won't disappear in our lifetime as a modality.

Then, try as hard as the tech giants might, AI won't replace all parts of our workflow (don't become a dosimetrist though).

I view Radiation Oncology as Medicine's NFL.

Do you sort of chuckle when you hear a kid say he's "gonna play football" when you ask what he wants to be when he grows up?

Sure. Because you know the odds.

Every year, do new players enter the NFL?

Yes. And it's not a good time for many of them, but the Tom Brady and and Deion Sanders of the world still exist too.

A med student telling me they don't want to do anything but RadOnc is Medicine's "I'm going pro".
I think the XFL may be a better analogy
 
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I think the WNBA may be a better analogy. Doesn't make any money and is propped up soley by the NBA. It only exists because it would be bad optics to scrap it.
What’s a good analogy for a sport where we go against our own teammates? Only thing I can kinda think of is formula 1 racing but those guys are cool.
 
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At the end of the day, try as hard as our legacy leadership might, radiotherapy probably won't disappear in our lifetime as a modality.

Then, try as hard as the tech giants might, AI won't replace all parts of our workflow (don't become a dosimetrist though).

I view Radiation Oncology as Medicine's NFL.

Do you sort of chuckle when you hear a kid say he's "gonna play football" when you ask what he wants to be when he grows up?

Sure. Because you know the odds.

Every year, do new players enter the NFL?

Yes. And it's not a good time for many of them, but the Tom Brady and and Deion Sanders of the world still exist too.

A med student telling me they don't want to do anything but RadOnc is Medicine's "I'm going pro".

I think this is a bit over the top. The odds of a RO resident getting a job they are happy with are not the same as a high school kid wanting to go to the NFL.
 
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just pulled the above from an old thread. Can you imagine an applicant in peak years submitting a personal statement talking about the wrong specialty
Talent/effort level will fall…
 
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just pulled the above from an old thread. Can you imagine an applicant in peak years submitting a personal statement talking about the wrong specialty
Talent/effort level will fall…
I can't remember how we got on the topic, but I had a conversation about "wrong address letters" with my Program Director a long time ago. I was at an "elite" place, and this was years before the crash.

He told me that invariably, without fail, they would get a couple letters each and every year addressed to the wrong institution. It happened both with ERAS and job "cold callers".

They would immediately chuck that application in the trash. While we all did the same thing, namely have a "core" letter or application or whatever that would be modified based on the institution we were applying to, the concern was that if you weren't able to pay attention to basic, easy details upfront, that was a concerning feature for someone practicing medicine.

Now...I obviously agree completely, because I was personally fastidious with this, for this very reason. I was SO CONCERNED I would miss changing the names on my "core" application materials.

But...I can see how an otherwise smart/talented person would overlook a name change in a large volume of documents sent to a large number of places. It's a reasonable, human error.

SENDING A PERSONAL STATEMENT WRITTEN ABOUT ANOTHER SPECIALTY ENTIRELY?!?!?

The only grace I can give those people would be if they're using a system where it's relatively easy to load up the wrong PDF or something and your filenames are too similar.

Just...yikes.
 
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I’ll give grace - mistakes happen. I’ve almost uploaded wrong documents multiple times and then deleted. It’s why I always check multiple times even now for anything I upload. Have also learned to clearly label the document names with specifics

Certainly gives an easy rejection when people have multiple things to go through, can’t blame one for doing that

But would hope someone would be smarter than to judge someone’s entire life and soundness as a physician on that.
 
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Smarter to have rad onc as the back up specialty then the other way around these days… just sayin!
 
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I can't remember how we got on the topic, but I had a conversation about "wrong address letters" with my Program Director a long time ago. I was at an "elite" place, and this was years before the crash.

He told me that invariably, without fail, they would get a couple letters each and every year addressed to the wrong institution. It happened both with ERAS and job "cold callers".

They would immediately chuck that application in the trash. While we all did the same thing, namely have a "core" letter or application or whatever that would be modified based on the institution we were applying to, the concern was that if you weren't able to pay attention to basic, easy details upfront, that was a concerning feature for someone practicing medicine.

Now...I obviously agree completely, because I was personally fastidious with this, for this very reason. I was SO CONCERNED I would miss changing the names on my "core" application materials.

But...I can see how an otherwise smart/talented person would overlook a name change in a large volume of documents sent to a large number of places. It's a reasonable, human error.

SENDING A PERSONAL STATEMENT WRITTEN ABOUT ANOTHER SPECIALTY ENTIRELY?!?!?

The only grace I can give those people would be if they're using a system where it's relatively easy to load up the wrong PDF or something and your filenames are too similar.

Just...yikes.
The sad thing, those same applications will now get ranked to match
 
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Just to be clarify, is wash u and our Astro president looking to match 5 instead of usual 4 this year?
 
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Wonder if that tweet is a sign that a number of applicants have no onc or rad onc experience and using the speciality either as back up or way to come to the states.
 
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If I was doc in some s-hole country, would apply to radonc and then try to transfer into another specialty during residency.
 
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Eastern TN way eastern TX and, if it can be even worse... bumville EAST boonie NM.

Or Ohio.

Samsies. Lol

Ps. Yes I know Iowa is worse but hey it's fun to poke at Ohio..
 
RadOnc is popular again? is that what you all
are saying? I don’t believe it
 
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