Quitting PsyD Neuropsychology Program. Advice?

[PsyDr]

I wish I knew. Quit PsyD/Neuropsych and change my entire career.

Then you’re not ready. If the pace of work is the issue, try slacking off. It will at least buy you some time.

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[cara susanna]

I echo what others have said here that this is WAY too much, especially for your level of training. And although I am not a neuropsychologist, I don't think it's absolutely an expectation that you work 60 hrs/week. Before I read your posts and learned about how stretched thin you are, I was going to suggest considering the VA where you only work 40 hrs/week. I personally would not choose to be in a field where I had to work more than 40 hrs, myself, so I don't think that means you aren't cut out for this field.

Basically, it's quite possible that you don't like neuropsych, but it's also possible that you're just incredibly burnt out because you're over-extended. I really would encourage you to wait to make a decision until that situation has changed. It sounds like you're worried that if you speak up, you'll get some retaliation from your program, but does that make a difference if you end up dropping out, anyway?

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I can honestly say if working 60 hours/week were a minimum requirement for this job, I wouldn't be doing it. Having the option to work that much is one thing, and there are many neuropsychologists who do, but it's very, very possible to earn a living with a solidly 40-hour work week.

I agree that if it's possible to wait out the current practicum situation, that's what I'd recommend. Those community requirements alone are a bit ridiculous. I've certainly heard of settings that require reports be completed the same day before a trainee can leave, and that often resulting in 10- to 12-hour days. But that was primarily on internship or, for a grad student, might only be once a week.

 

[singasongofjoy]

Likely program/clinical site dependent. I am in the same boat, as I wear a few different hats (TA, research, coursework, clinical work, etc) and it's getting harder to manage everything. On top of all that, I've been wanting things that I didn't think I wanted so soon before starting the program. Things like getting married, starting a family, making income, etc. As a 25-year old in this generation, I feel so behind on all these adult things. I feel like I can't do any of these things because I am stuck in graduate school.

Is there freedom and flexibility after training?

I was 26 when I started my program (clin psych, not neuro) and also found myself in a program with objectively unreasonable expectations and wearing too many hats (my advisor liked to volunteer me for assorted other things without asking me first on top of the rest)- all that to say I hear you. I struggled with the same desire to throw my hands up at it all. I think it was probably my lack of an easier plan B that I thought I would definitely like more or as much as being a psychologist that helped me stick it out (and the bonds of feeling like you're in some warped kind of mental foxhole led to strong bonds with a few in my cohort which helped a lot). There was also this too-accurate meme/humor website about being a grad student in psych but I can't recall the name of it - anyone? It was pure gold at the time...

I fear this is going to be a long post because the absurd clinical & transportation demands piled on with wearing several other hats is eliciting some flashbacks and tons of empathy over here. Many parts of my grad school experience really sucked, some aspects downright toxic, much of it unreasonablel, and yet... I'm still glad I stuck it out. You might decide that is not for you, but regardless, until you get to that decision point maybe something in the below might be a little helpful.

Sounds like you are totally overscheduled which makes everything terrrible, and just even more terrible over time as you get more and more sleep deprived (and socially / personal time deprived)- even if all the things are things you normally enjoy. My key turning point was when I finally internalized the idea that no one would die - or get kicked out of school - if I strategically said no to things. Professional development skill of grad school - learning which corners to cut, how to dovetail your goals/demands with your classmates to split the load or at least integrate social time while doing the things, and learning how to strategically and diplomatically say no (and mean it) because being able to recognize when you need to take steps to preserve your own mental and physical health are also critical professional (and life) skills in the long run, right?.

I have no idea if it will work for you, but my eventual approach to being overscheduled (or at least my eventual more adaptive approach than my earlier responses): I blocked out my hours on a calendar in 30 minute increments, colored them in to show where time was going (or was supposed to go), including accounting for transit time, sleep, eating, showering, weekend chores of laundry, grocery shopping, studying/dissertating etc (I even put a weekly 30 minute phone call to my grandma on there because hey, it's important). I then matter of factly presented it to my (generally very unapproachable and unavailable) advisor, saying "this is my life as currently scheduled. These are the things that i find myself NOT having time for (insert something they also find important, like sleep, writing dissertation). Something has got to go. I'm thinking X makes the most sense because of (reasons), but also considered maybe y instead because (reasons) I've got ideas of how I'd manage either transition- but wanted to first get your opinion on which would be preferable because (insert some mild, truthful ego stroking such as because you have the experience to know what is likely to ultimately matter more/less to my academic/career trajectory). Which do you think would be the most reasonable route to take -cutting this (with transition plan), or this (with transition plan)?" I've since used the same approach in other situations and find it's generally well-received.

No one thinks about your schedule as much as you do. In fact, most people who supervise you probably don't think about it at all except to know when they can expect to see you doing xyz. Especially when you are wearing a bunch of different hats, no one has any clue the sum total you have going on and how much time those things take. You're the only one who has the full objective picture of where your time goes and the varying demands on it. Most people, when the big picture is presented to them, turn out to be pretty reasonable.

So.... sorry for such a long post. Main point: I'd suggest taking steps to reduce the demands on your time as a first step. If you're as dissatisfied as you say, you've got little to lose in doing so. That will give you more mental/emotional energy and space to first take a deep breath and regain some equilibrium, then thinking about what else you might want to change / move towards next. Or you might find that when you're not totally burnt out, you actually like it well enough most of the time after all. Then you'll also have more mental space to consider ways to address the financial stressor you mentioned.

Also: Oof. You've gotta change your comparison group. At the very least, compare yourself to other people who are also in or recently exited graduate school. Your path is so different than the norm (folks that don't attend grad school) that you're kinda not even comparing apples to oranges, I think, but more like apples to eggs or something. (Better yet, get off of or extremely diminish the scope of your social media consumption). Spend more time talking to upper year students, recent graduates, people who are on similar paths who can legitimately tell you that it gets better (it does). Anecdata that it does get better - of the 8 people in my cohort or adjacent who were also late 20s or older when they graduated, all are married / partnered (or divorced and repartnered), and everyone who has wanted to have a kid (or more) does, to my knowledge - and is living in their desired geographic location (at least the same or adjacent state) working WAY fewer hours than we did in grad school with all our many hats. Also you get a lot more freedom to find/shape the kind of position that would allow whatever is your preferable ratio of clinical work to other stuff.

Therapy would prob be helpful in theory, but finding the time and the waitlists can be hard, right? Can you find a reason to dig more into learning and practicing DBT, CBT, and find an informal CBT/DBT/kvetching buddy who is similarly beleaguered? if nothing else, it feels good to be able to laugh at the absurdity of it all from time to time - especially if all your non-grad-school friends and family really just cannot fathom and it eventually feels like too much effort to explain. Sometimes it's nice to hear someone else who is in a similar position also acknowledge that yeah, this is not what I expected. It sucks. And also, it won't last forever, so let's go get ice cream and practice being mindful for the duration of time it takes to eat it. Or whatever mutually floats your boat. If you do choose to stick it out, keep in mind that especially in programs with not-so-great support or balance of demands, getting to graduation might be more of a group project than an individual achievement. At least that's how it felt to me.

 

[singasongofjoy]

Who is the most approachable about addressing your workload? Is there any chance that your site supervisors actually don't know that you'd prefer to do less? My prac students last year were scrambling for every clinical hour they could get because COVID threw such a wrench in it on their previous placements and they were worried about accruing enough hours for internship. My current student actually got a good number of hours last year and is focusing on spending time more strategically. I don't know who is of which mindset unless I ask them - my studnets never tell me when they're approaching burnout. I have to ask. So I make a point to ask and to periodically check in if they're feeling like they have enough time to do quality work and mull over things they are learning, but it is possible the only reason I think to proactively do that at the start and throughout the year is because I was in a similar position to you and don't want to create that for anyone else. is it possible your supervisor, DCT might be more open than you think? In my setting honestly if it is a week where a student needs to take more of a back seat for some reason, it's actually easier for me- I'm much more efficient. frame your need to back off as focusing on the biggest priorities of being able to synthesize what you are learning and provide quality work / care so you can get the most from it while also meeting patient needs? It is very possible that being proactive like this will reflect very well on you - it is relatively easy to teach technical skills. It is a lot harder to teach the soft skills needed to be a successful independent psychologist - having good insight into your own strengths and areas that need more support, which types of supports are helpful to you, competence level and not jumping beyond it, maintaining good boundaries and self-advocacy, etc.

 

[futureapppsy2]

No one thinks about your schedule as much as you do. In fact, most people who supervise you probably don't think about it at all except to know when they can expect to see you doing xyz. Especially when you are wearing a bunch of different hats, no one has any clue the sum total you have going on and how much time those things take. You're the only one who has the full objective picture of where your time goes and the varying demands on it. Most people, when the big picture is presented to them, turn out to be pretty reasonable.

I've been working a ton with a mentor on this--she points out that, in academia, people always want/need something from you (review, teaching, service, grant app, book chapter, article, etc), and almost never see the full scope of what you're doing. She uses the analogy of juggling a bunch of balls and figuring out which are the glass ones you can't drop, the glass ones you can because you can do without them, the rubber ones you can drop and pick up later, and the rubber ones that you can just leave. She also points out that, at least in academia, success breeds... more work. The more accomplished you are, the more people ask you to do things.

 

[deleted1129217]

I am a 3rd year PsyD student (5 year program). I've been so unhappy with my program and consistently question my career choices. Before starting my program, I was set on wanting to get into a PsyD program and specializing in neuropsychology. I recently started my external practicum year and I hate it. I can't tell if the reason why I'm so unhappy is due to stress or due to a lack of passion in the field. I keep thinking about dropping the program but after 2 full years, I can't help but beat myself over the fact that I have wasted so much time and money. I am stuck between continuing to get my PsyD given all the tuition loans and years of my life that I have already invested in this, or drop the program completely to figure out if there's anything else I might be passionate about. I am 25 years old and I feel like such a failure for feeling this way. I got an MA degree on the way to my PsyD, so that's pretty much the only thing I gained. I am performing really well in my clinical sites and in my classes, but I still don't feel happy on this journey to become a neuropsychologist.

I am not sure what I would do if I dropped the program. I have a B.S. in Neuroscience and a M.A. in Clinical Psychology. I would either have to look into what kind of jobs I can get with those degrees, or spend a couple more years transitioning out of being a doctoral student to a complete career change. I feel so stuck. Any advice out there?

Wow am I glad I found this thread. Similar boat with some differences. I didn’t go straight into PsyD and I still feel this way. I’m also in SoCal but not neuropsych track — I was never given that training opportunity no matter how hard I tried for it. I earned my MSW before starting PsyD program. I got my LCSW along the way as well as a second MA in clinical psychology. Feeling extremely burned out and just want to live my life already without being a student and working myself to death in unpaid externships. At the end of my 3rd year. I don’t know what to do. I feel like it’s all been a waste. My academic and clinical training has been subpar while in the PsyD program. I learned much more from my MSW experience.

I’d appreciate any insight or feedback regarding this. And OP, I’d love to hear from you regarding what you decided.

 

[neurotic_cow]

I am a 3rd year PsyD student (5 year program). I've been so unhappy with my program and consistently question my career choices. Before starting my program, I was set on wanting to get into a PsyD program and specializing in neuropsychology. I recently started my external practicum year and I hate it. I can't tell if the reason why I'm so unhappy is due to stress or due to a lack of passion in the field. I keep thinking about dropping the program but after 2 full years, I can't help but beat myself over the fact that I have wasted so much time and money. I am stuck between continuing to get my PsyD given all the tuition loans and years of my life that I have already invested in this, or drop the program completely to figure out if there's anything else I might be passionate about. I am 25 years old and I feel like such a failure for feeling this way. I got an MA degree on the way to my PsyD, so that's pretty much the only thing I gained. I am performing really well in my clinical sites and in my classes, but I still don't feel happy on this journey to become a neuropsychologist.

I am not sure what I would do if I dropped the program. I have a B.S. in Neuroscience and a M.A. in Clinical Psychology. I would either have to look into what kind of jobs I can get with those degrees, or spend a couple more years transitioning out of being a doctoral student to a complete career change. I feel so stuck. Any advice out there?

I really have no better advice compared to what others have said but wanted to say that I'm sorry that you're in this situation! I was in your shoes (also have a BS in Neuroscience, MA in clinical psych) and considered leaving my PsyD program many times. Some of the alternative careers I looked into were: going for my PhD in Neuroscience, going to PA school, or getting a job in a lab with my BS degree (I was trained in PCR, immunohistochemistry, other laboratory techniques). I know other who have also gone on to work as therapists or psychometrists with their master's degree. I don't know if any of that is helpful.

 

[summerbabe]

At the end of my 3rd year. I don’t know what to do. I feel like it’s all been a waste. My academic and clinical training has been subpar while in the PsyD program.

If you dropped out today, your sunk costs are tuition paid for the PsyD and income lost during this period since you can immediately start practicing as an LCSW. Do your future career goals that still require a PhD or could you be happy practicing as a social worker?

How much longer would you anticipate being in school? Would you be a competitive predoctoral internship candidate during the next cycle? If so, you could try to trudge through one last year of on-campus study, do one year of a lowly paid internship, and then work towards independent licensure. The degree is just a certification and you can (and should) do independent learning after receiving the credential.

If you think dissertation and finishing up program requirements plus matching will be a challenge or take too long, perhaps that might be a reason to cut your losses. Best of luck.

 

[deleted1129217]

I really have no better advice compared to what others have said but wanted to say that I'm sorry that you're in this situation! I was in your shoes (also have a BS in Neuroscience, MA in clinical psych) and considered leaving my PsyD program many times. Some of the alternative careers I looked into were: going for my PhD in Neuroscience, going to PA school, or getting a job in a lab with my BS degree (I was trained in PCR, immunohistochemistry, other laboratory techniques). I know other who have also gone on to work as therapists or psychometrists with their master's degree. I don't know if any of that is helpful.

I appreciate the quickly reply. Thank you for your kind words. I think I just want to work as an LCSW. I am so tired of being in school — my physical and mental health are in bad shape.

 

[psych.meout]

I appreciate the quickly reply. Thank you for your kind words. I think I just want to work as an LCSW. I am so tired of being in school — my physical and mental health are in bad shape.

If you want to do that and like being a social worker then that works out well, but I wouldn't really consider it settling or anything less to be a social worker. Social workers are great and provide invaluable services.

 

[deleted1129217]

If you dropped out today, your sunk costs are tuition paid for the PsyD and income lost during this period since you can immediately start practicing as an LCSW. Do your future career goals that still require a PhD or could you be happy practicing as a social worker?

How much longer would you anticipate being in school? Would you be a competitive predoctoral internship candidate during the next cycle? If so, you could try to trudge through one last year of on-campus study, do one year of a lowly paid internship, and then work towards independent licensure. The degree is just a certification and you can (and should) do independent learning after receiving the credential.

If you think dissertation and finishing up program requirements plus matching will be a challenge or take too long, perhaps that might be a reason to cut your losses. Best of luck.

Hi, thank you for taking the time to reply. I think I’d be happier practicing as a clinical social worker. My ultimate goal is private practice, possibly teaching and working in a hospital setting. I really wanted to add neuropsychology under my belt — one of the reasons I wanted to pursue a PsyD. I consistently get rejected for neuropsych prac positions, I think because of my clinical background and obvious interest in therapy. Nonetheless, I never got the Neuro training and I’m quite sure I won’t be (one year left of prac). So here I am not getting the training I want, being treated terribly by the school, not learning since professors don’t know how to teach, being placed at practicums that should have never been accepted as sites…I think I’m answering my own question here…

Internship is challenging since I’m at a professional school and we know that they tend not be as competitive as other schools. The only thing making me competitive is my MSW/LCSW.

Given that my program tends to give people a hard time with IRB which tends to delay graduation, I’d say I have another 2-3 years.