Questions from MD Student applying to OMFS

[Danny Noonan]

Hey guys, I have a burning question that I'm hoping will get some helpful responses. I've just finished my 3rd year as a med student at a US MD school. I have planned thus far to apply to ENT residencies in the upcoming year. Because of my exposure to ENT I've also gotten to work in the OR with some really inspiring OMF guys. So that brings me here. I want to know what my options are of getting into the field from the MD route.

I've researched it on the surface and I've noticed there is not a lot or readily available info for MDs wanting to go into MFS. I know there are programs that offer it though.

Anyone have any thoughtful advice here? Perhaps someone that has done it or knows someone who did? Are programs excited to have MD applicants? Is it easier/harder to get in? Is there any way to get match into the residency right out of med school and get my Dental degree in combo?

Here are my stats:

Step1: 240/99
Class Rank: Somewhere in top half (that's all they tell us)
Research: 1 pub (derm case report), 1 submitted (radiology review), 1 ENT chart review in progress.
Other: I think I may have a talent/hobby or two that may set me apart.

So I'm hoping for some helpful feedback... it's been burning on my mind for a while and it's definitly time to do something about it being that I just started 4th year. I'll keep researching in the meantime. Thanks guys... if you're anything like the OMF's I've met I'm sure I'll get some good help.

Noonan

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[armorshell]

I'd recommend calling programs individually. Programs that have a track record of taking MD applicants are a good place to start (Alabama, Louisville, Jacksonville)

 

[toofache32]

....and Baylor, U. of Michigan...

 

[gryffindor]

This question comes up like every 3 months for the past 3 or 4 years. For more responses, search around in this forum and especially in the Dental forum since it is asked there more often.

 

[mbgandh]

Pitt/UPMC has a program too...

 

[Danny Noonan]

Thanks

 

[Danny Noonan]

This question comes up like every 3 months for the past 3 or 4 years. For more responses, search around in this forum and especially in the Dental forum since it is asked there more often.

Thanks I have read some of those discussions. Still not all that helpful. Hoping to get some more specific responses here. thanks for the replies so far.

Noonan

 

[PAJain]

Danny...I would HIGHLY recommend you pursue programs that have a system in place for someone like you. In med school I always tried to recruit people into considering our specialty. Its hard enough convincing dental students to do 2 years of med school, imagine telling a med student to do 3 years of dental school.

You can't go wrong with programs like Jacksonville, Louisville, and Alabama. Not sure which OMFS you worked with but the people at these programs are really inspiring.

 

[gary_ruska]

Thanks I have read some of those discussions. Still not all that helpful. Hoping to get some more specific responses here. thanks for the replies so far.

Noonan

Gary "Back from Hiatus" Ruska here,

What specific information are you looking for? Short of contacting the PDs for the aforementioned programs, there's not much else in the way of advice that can be offered. Perhaps if you clarify your position, GR and others will be able to further assist you.

GR is curious as to why OMFS over ENT? Have you had experience with dentoalveolar/orthognathic/TMJ/dental implant surgery? These are the things that, generally speaking, separate OMFS from ENT. If you're interested in head and neck oncology, facial cosmetics or microvascular reconstruction of the head and neck, ENT is the way to go. For trauma, either pathway is sufficient.

GR

 

[toofache32]

Gary "Back from Hiatus" Ruska here....

Oh. My. God.
He lives.

 

[PAJain]

Toof...curious are still doing your fellowship? If your done, are you starting this year as an attending. Curious if you know if any residency programs are picking up last years head and neck fellows.

 

[armorshell]

Gary "Back from Hiatus" Ruska here,


GR

Holy crap!

 

[crazy_sherm]

A while back, Dr.Millisevert posted a list of program directors to contact:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=500888

 

[PaxRoma]

One of the upper classman of mine is an OB-GYN turned OMFS. He just got accepted to our school program. PM me if you are interested in getting in touch with him (granted I have to let him know first).

 

[Danny Noonan]

Thanks for all the help so far. I've PM'd some of you guys and gotten some really good leads. Something about OMFS people that makes it an attractive field. You guys are all really good, cool people, easy to work with. Thanks for the help so far. Keep it coming.

Noonan

 

[Danny Noonan]

Gary "Back from Hiatus" Ruska here,

What specific information are you looking for? Short of contacting the PDs for the aforementioned programs, there's not much else in the way of advice that can be offered. Perhaps if you clarify your position, GR and others will be able to further assist you.

GR is curious as to why OMFS over ENT? Have you had experience with dentoalveolar/orthognathic/TMJ/dental implant surgery? These are the things that, generally speaking, separate OMFS from ENT. If you're interested in head and neck oncology, facial cosmetics or microvascular reconstruction of the head and neck, ENT is the way to go. For trauma, either pathway is sufficient.

GR

GR, thanks for the reply. How is it that "no more advice can be offered?" . Please specify what you mean by "clarifying my position". I'm confident there are people out there with the desire to give experienced advice to an MD student looking into OMFS with my original questions. I tried not to make my questions too specific due to my lack of information and thus left it more open for those of you with experience to offer broad advice.

As far as why OMFS over ENT? I am still leaning towards ENT because it is familiar to me, but like I said, I'm getting more and more excited about OMFS. I like head and neck and neuro-oto, but I'm also interested in implants, TMJ, dentoalveolar. The problem is that I dont have any real academic contacts within the field. I have worked with 2 well trained private practicioners in the OR (one from Mayo, not sure where the other went), but they weren't able to help much on the MD to OMFS from an admissions perspective.

My more specific questions are:

1. How would I get there and how long would it take? (Could I start right into the 4 year residency or would I need to go to Dental school first? Or is there any combined DDS/OMFS route that would be shorter? Would I still have to take the DAT, GRE, or any of that jazz?)

2. Are my chances of acceptance higher/lower/similar to those coming from the DDS route?

3. Any anecdotal advice from those with experience doing the same thing, or someone they know.

4. Any advice welcome.

Thanks

Noonan

 

[armorshell]

GR, thanks for the reply. How is it that "no more advice can be offered?" . Please specify what you mean by "clarifying my position". I'm confident there are people out there with the desire to give experienced advice to an MD student looking into OMFS with my original questions. I tried not to make my questions too specific due to my lack of information and thus left it more open for those of you with experience to offer broad advice.

As far as why OMFS over ENT? I am still leaning towards ENT because it is familiar to me, but like I said, I'm getting more and more excited about OMFS. I like head and neck and neuro-oto, but I'm also interested in implants, TMJ, dentoalveolar. The problem is that I dont have any real academic contacts within the field. I have worked with 2 well trained private practicioners in the OR (one from Mayo, not sure where the other went), but they weren't able to help much on the MD to OMFS from an admissions perspective.

My more specific questions are:

1. How would I get there and how long would it take? (Could I start right into the 4 year residency or would I need to go to Dental school first? Or is there any combined DDS/OMFS route that would be shorter? Would I still have to take the DAT, GRE, or any of that jazz?)

2. Are my chances of acceptance higher/lower/similar to those coming from the DDS route?

3. Any anecdotal advice from those with experience doing the same thing, or someone they know.

4. Any advice welcome.

Thanks

Noonan

Any established MD -> OMFS program will without a doubt require you to obtain a DDS degree. IIRC they're all 7 year DDS/OMFS programs.

 

[toofache32]

I met a guy who did this at the U of Louisville in Kentucky a few years ago. He applied and didn't match, so he did a year of general surgery. Applied again and he matched at Louisville into a 6-year track. My understanding is that it would have been 7 but he already did his general surgery year, so it was made into a 6-year track (I think). Of course, this is still 7 years total for him. The problem is that dental students do more of med school than med students do of dental school. While dental graduates can get away with doing only the 3rd and 4th years of med school, MD graduates have to have some form of pre-clinical training before doing those procedures on patients, since dentistry is such a procedure-based profession. My assumption is that the basic sciences of the 1st two years of dental school could be weeded out and the occlusion, dental anatomy, and lab stuff could be crammed into 1 year of pre-clinical stuff. Another thought is that you would have to go to a program that has a dental school. Sounds obvious, but many OMFS programs are hospital-based and not affiliated with a dental school.

 

[txdent2be2007]

We currently have 4 MD --> OMFS residents in our program here at Alabama. Definitely contact Dr. Louis if you're interested. The track is 7 years.

 

[Danny Noonan]

Music to my ears, thanks for the help.

 

[EL GUAPO!]

LSU-NO is going to start taking MD first applicants. I spoke with our chairman about it the other day. His criteria (as with any applicant) is that the person must be well qualified in order to be considered. Just waiting for a good applicant to inquire. We have had some interest, but the people were not well qualified. It probably means STEP 1 > 235 and good Med school transcript. I think it will end up being a 6 year track, at most 7.

It is a win for our specialty to accept MD first applicants in addition to traditional DDS/DMD applicants. More applicants, increased exposure, strenghtend ties with medicine, blah, blah, blah...

 

[PAJain]

I agree with El Guapo this is a good thing for our specialty, it is my opinion that OMFS is as much of a medical specialty as it is a dental specialty. This thing is going to spread like wild fire...many 6 year programs are opening up their doors to med student applicants. This is a logical progression since our specialty is becoming more focused on the M in OMFS rather than the O. Hopefully, we can finally become an ACGME specialty not a CODA specialty.

 

[liriano]

Predent student here. I don't agree with the overall consensus of increasing acceptance of med students into the OMFS field. As a former med student, I know that there are many avenues in which a med student can go if they want a piece of the OMFS action (ENT, plastics, specialty ortho, etc.) There is literally only one way in which a dental student can pursue this field - through OMFS. It is already the most competitive specialty to get into with only dental students - allowing more med students access to coveted spots makes getting into the specialty that much more daunting. I know applicants have to step it up because of this, but I think that residency directors should exercise caution in admitting a significant number of med students into 6-year programs.

 

[doc toothache]

Predent student here. I don't agree with the overall consensus of increasing acceptance of med students into the OMFS field. As a former med student, I know that there are many avenues in which a med student can go if they want a piece of the OMFS action (ENT, plastics, specialty ortho, etc.) There is literally only one way in which a dental student can pursue this field - through OMFS. It is already the most competitive specialty to get into with only dental students - allowing more med students access to coveted spots makes getting into the specialty that much more daunting. I know applicants have to step it up because of this, but I think that residency directors should exercise caution in admitting a significant number of med students into 6-year programs.

You mean one cannot pursue an M.D. after D.D.S./D.M.D.? Yeah, keep those guys out.

 

[toofache32]

I agree with El Guapo this is a good thing for our specialty, it is my opinion that OMFS is as much of a medical specialty as it is a dental specialty. This thing is going to spread like wild fire...many 6 year programs are opening up their doors to med student applicants. This is a logical progression since our specialty is becoming more focused on the M in OMFS rather than the O. Hopefully, we can finally become an ACGME specialty not a CODA specialty.

I'm not sure I agree, and I don't know why one would infer that ACGME accredidation is somehow better than CODA accredidation. OMFS is a dental specialty for a reason....because over 95% of referrals in private practice come from dentists for dental issues. And let's face it....probably 95% or more of oral surgeons are in private practice. It's exciting that major maxillofacial surgery has become more common, but the VAST majority of oral surgeons aren't interested in that stuff because of poor reimbursement. It will be interesting to see if people start doing what interests them instead of what pays them after Obama f's us all and makes us salaried gub'ment employees. Accepting med students doesn't make you more of a medical specialty....they still have to do dental school and the end product is essentially the same.

 

[liriano]

You mean one cannot pursue an M.D. after D.D.S./D.M.D.? Yeah, keep those guys out.

I meant MDs taking OMFS 6-year spots. A dentist can apply to med school if they want, but the avenue is different than the OMFS route that is available for primarily upcoming dental grads. As a potential dental graduate, I cannot apply for an ENT residency unless I go to medical school for four years and apply as a medical student AFTER I finish med school, which has NOTHING to do with an ENT placment spot for residency. I find it a little upsetting that a med graduate can take a spot in OMFS, do three years of dental school, and then obtain an OMFS license with no med school equivalent for dental grads. Where is the six year ENT/med school residencies that dental grads are eligible for? I understand that the OMFS limited spots should go to the most qualified, whether from dental school or med school, but I feel that the spots available for med school grads should be few/capped and the dental grads should get higher priority.

 

[gryffindor]

I agree with El Guapo this is a good thing for our specialty, it is my opinion that OMFS is as much of a medical specialty as it is a dental specialty. This thing is going to spread like wild fire...many 6 year programs are opening up their doors to med student applicants. This is a logical progression since our specialty is becoming more focused on the M in OMFS rather than the O. Hopefully, we can finally become an ACGME specialty not a CODA specialty.

We had an OMFS who graduated in the 80s come lecture us about how the specialty has gone more toward the O rather than the M after some big reimbursement upheaval in the early 90s that has led to the near-elimination of orthognathic surgical approvals in many parts of the country. His advice to us was to be weary of the new OMFS grad because a lot of them don't have as much experience in cutting for orthognathics in their programs. Then he said we wouldn't have to worry about it since the patient's surgery will probably not get approved and the patient won't have $40K to fork over out of pocket. The new OMFS guys also don't pursue the M in private practice as much as his colleagues from the 80s did because even if the surgery did get approved, the reimbursement blows.

 

[shabu2]

Predent student here. I don't agree with the overall consensus of increasing acceptance of med students into the OMFS field. As a former med student, I know that there are many avenues in which a med student can go if they want a piece of the OMFS action (ENT, plastics, specialty ortho, etc.) There is literally only one way in which a dental student can pursue this field - through OMFS. It is already the most competitive specialty to get into with only dental students - allowing more med students access to coveted spots makes getting into the specialty that much more daunting. I know applicants have to step it up because of this, but I think that residency directors should exercise caution in admitting a significant number of med students into 6-year programs.

Nothing wrong with admitting more med students because it only means that the best and brightest get accepted. Nothing like friendly competition to drive up the pool of qualified applicants.

 

[EL GUAPO!]

We had an OMFS who graduated in the 80s come lecture us about how the specialty has gone more toward the O rather than the M after some big reimbursement upheaval in the early 90s that has led to the near-elimination of orthognathic surgical approvals in many parts of the country. His advice to us was to be weary of the new OMFS grad because a lot of them don't have as much experience in cutting for orthognathics in their programs. Then he said we wouldn't have to worry about it since the patient's surgery will probably not get approved and the patient won't have $40K to fork over out of pocket. The new OMFS guys also don't pursue the M in private practice as much as his colleagues from the 80s did because even if the surgery did get approved, the reimbursement blows.

Nearly all OMS's make the bulk of their income in private practice doing dentoalveolar surgery, as it should be and will continue to be for the foreseeable future (depending on the outcome of Obamacare). There is nothing that is as productive as T & T in nearly all OMS practices. The complications and headaches are relatively minor compared to other OMS procedures (i.e. TMJ surgery, orthognathic surgery, facial cosmetics, fracture repair etc...). Doing the "O" in OMS is simply the path of least resistance with the greatest monetary reward.

If you want include some of the "M" then either 1) you will take a bit of a pay cut and/or 2) you will work longer and more irregular hours. The guys in private practice who do the "M" ususally have two characteristics: they are well trained and know it, and they fricking love doing the "good stuff". They accept 1 and/or 2 from above and smile about it.

As far as orthognathic training is concerned, all programs must show evidence of adequate training in orthognathics and other areas in order to maintain accreditation. The guy who came and lectured to you is an arrogant POS who thinks only his hands are blessed and only his "training from the 80's" is adequate. That being said, the quality of orthognathic training varies greatly from a good program compared to a poor progam.

Another factor: a new surgeon with so/so training goes into private practice and won't see an orthognathics case but once in a blue moon until the ortho clan trusts him (unless he's aggressively focused on it). Finally he gets an orthognathics case sent to him 8 months after graduating. So he is a little rusty doing orthognathics and this first case is a cluster from the get-go. Usually it's a clearly surgical case that was unsuccessfully treated nonsurgically with all the movements in the wrong direction. It turns out to be a 7 hour nightmare case with a mediocre result and the new surgeon is thinking "Screw this. I am going stick with my office and forget about doing this BS." It is the easy and lucrative path. It's almost the expected path.

Reinbursement. Insurance and cost issues became a big deal in the early and mid 90s and they still are but we have adapted. Accredited in-office OR's, surgical centers, negotiated flat fees with the local hospital for cash payers are all good solutions to the payment issue and they all work.

 

[armorshell]

Someone once told told me he thought it was crazy that OMFS is the only specialty in all of medicine whose practitioners feel like they need to apologize for going after their bread and butter.

 

[PAJain]

I once again agree with El Guapo on that old timer being an arrogant POS. Like it or not the "younger" guys are better trained. Maybe we are not draining as many infections as the old timers did, but we do more cosmetics and larger recon cases than they did in the 80s. Also, we are doing OSA surgery now and are starting to do more OMFS cases under the microscope. OMFS is growing at a very fast rate right now...dual degreed surgeons can become FACS, we have guys out there doing full body plastics (thanks to Dr. Toban), and more and more private practices are building their own surgery center and looking to hire young associates who can do more than T&T.

Also, the comment about restricting med students going to OMFS is incorrect. There is an equivalent to med students coming into OMFS...its called OMFS MD-integrated training. Med schools are cool enough to admit us without any problems, and treat us with a lot of respect. Some even give us scholarships to help us out.

In the end of the day we are going to need both the maxillofacial guys and the oral surgeons. We will also have some that do both. Someone will have to work in free care clinics and gentle dental. At the same time we will need the guys who will do the big time cases at the teaching centers. I have never had to apologize for doing T&T, it is as much a part of OMFS as Orthognathic or TMJ surgery.

 

[CanuckDDS]

I agree with the sentiment about the old OMF'er. We do about 300 orthognathic cases a YEAR. Plus tons of other stuff. Anyone who doesn't realize that newly minted surgeons are more highly trained than their predecessors is arrogant and delusional. He trained in the 80's, there were no dual degree programs (or not many), definitely no microvascular, free flaps, rhinos etc. I'm sure that he is really great at pulling out 8's quickly though.

I hope that when I'm 60 I can look at some young buck who just finished a fellowship and say "****, that is one highly trained surgery machine. I'm proud that he/she is an OMF colleague and the profession that I was so fortunate to be a part of is in good hands"

The bread and butter stuff is great. It allows us to fund the more interesting parts of practice and it is low stress/high yield. You never here ENT's lamenting a big day of T & A's...

I once again agree with El Guapo on that old timer being an arrogant POS. Like it or not the "younger" guys are better trained. Maybe we are not draining as many infections as the old timers did, but we do more cosmetics and larger recon cases than they did in the 80s. Also, we are doing OSA surgery now and are starting to do more OMFS cases under the microscope. OMFS is growing at a very fast rate right now...dual degreed surgeons can become FACS, we have guys out there doing full body plastics (thanks to Dr. Toban), and more and more private practices are building their own surgery center and looking to hire young associates who can do more than T&T.

Also, the comment about restricting med students going to OMFS is incorrect. There is an equivalent to med students coming into OMFS...its called OMFS MD-integrated training. Med schools are cool enough to admit us without any problems, and treat us with a lot of respect. Some even give us scholarships to help us out.

In the end of the day we are going to need both the maxillofacial guys and the oral surgeons. We will also have some that do both. Someone will have to work in free care clinics and gentle dental. At the same time we will need the guys who will do the big time cases at the teaching centers. I have never had to apologize for doing T&T, it is as much a part of OMFS as Orthognathic or TMJ surgery.

 

[Danny Noonan]

As I read the post from Liriano about fear of med student applicants making OMFS more competative and proposing caps/restrictions... that comes off as a bit silly.
Your post reflects poorly on your OMFS colleagues.

If you care about the future and advancement of your field, then you should want as many competative applicants as possible. It sounds rather insecure to want to keep MD's out of the field due to fear of a more competative applicant pool. As it sounds, I wouldnt have a "free pass"... I would have to get my DDS. So that leads me to believe all this is just insecurity that an MD might just make someone's application more attractive. If that's a suprise to you, then dont be shocked if you apply to an ENT residency out of med school and get beat out by a guy with an MD/PhD... that's just the way it works-- the more initials after your name, the more attractive of a candidate you are.

That's like banning soccer players from playing football (or visa versa) out of fear they might take some of the kicker jobs. If I'm a coach (program director), I dont care where you came from if you can kick the shiz out of a football.

But, thankfully, the OMFS people I've talked don't have this attitude and would welcome us colleagues... especially since the ones I know also bare MD initials as well as DDS after their names. But whatever, I guess it's better I hear this sort of chatter now rather than later... I really hope the rest of the OMFS field isn't as insecure. Please tell me I'm wrong.

Noonan

 

[EggShaped]

Predent student here. I don't agree with the overall consensus of increasing acceptance of med students into the OMFS field. As a former med student, I know that there are many avenues in which a med student can go if they want a piece of the OMFS action (ENT, plastics, specialty ortho, etc.) There is literally only one way in which a dental student can pursue this field - through OMFS. It is already the most competitive specialty to get into with only dental students - allowing more med students access to coveted spots makes getting into the specialty that much more daunting. I know applicants have to step it up because of this, but I think that residency directors should exercise caution in admitting a significant number of med students into 6-year programs.

I do agree with liriano's position but not for the same reason. I have many friends in med school and i really think that they ARE qualified to do a 7-yr route do becoming a OMFS.
What I'm weary about is their lack of knowledge on the speciality itself, therefore I'm questioning their passion for it. Yes, med students do get to assist OMFS in the OR but do they get to see what they do in extern clinics which, based on personal observations, seems to be the biggest part of the guy's week.
What if the med student starts the program and ends up HATING dent school? OMFS still remains a DENTAL specialty and unfortunately, a lot of surgeons have seem to forget this.
If you "fell in love" while scrubbing in with an OMFS, have you considered plastics? Because some plastics do the same exact thing as an OMFS in the OR. There's always ortho (because as the OMFS program director at my dental school said: OMFS is ortho for barbies) or ENT.

Anyways that's just my 2-cents.

 

[CanuckDDS]

You're wrong Noons.

I have no problem with it. As long as the time gets put in, and so it seems it is. Fill your boots, give'er. All the best to ya. We need good peeps regardless of what degree they got first.

I am insecure about my hairline only.

As I read the post from Liriano about fear of med student applicants making OMFS more competative and proposing caps/restrictions... that comes off as a bit silly. Especially when he mentions that even after getting a full 3 year DDS, it's somehow unfair that an MD student be "allowed" to apply to OMFS... then he goes on to say "where is the 6 year ENT/MD spot for dental grads?" Hmm... where do I start?

3 things... First of all... your entire post reflects poorly on your OMFS colleagues. Secondly, an ENT residency is already 5 years after med school. Thirdly, your arguing that you should be able to cut out 3 full years of med school and combine it to 6 years? My guess is that the only thing the OMFS field has to fear is that a person like yourself might make it through an OMFS program. You're the same type that will complain about your partners getting more cases than you just because they "work harder." yeah... that makes sense.

If you care about the future and advancement of your field, then you should want as many competative applicants as possible. It sounds rather insecure to want to keep MD's out of the field due to fear of a more competative applicant pool. As it sounds, I wouldnt have a "free pass"... I would have to get my DDS. So that leads me to believe all this is just insecurity that my MD might just make my application more attractive. If that's a suprise to you, then dont be shocked if you apply to an ENT residency out of med school and get beat out by a guy with an MD/PhD... that's just the way it works-- the more initials after your name, the more attractive of a candidate you are.

That's like banning soccer players from playing football (or visa versa) out of fear they might take some of the kicker jobs. If I'm a coach (program director), I dont care where you came from if you can kick the shiz out of a football.

But, thankfully, the OMFS people I've talked don't share this insecurity and welcome us a collegues... especially since the ones I know also bare MD initials as well as DDS after their names. But whatever, I guess it's better I hear this sort of chatter now rather than later... I really hope the rest of the OMFS field isn't as insecure. Please tell me I'm wrong.

Noonan

 

[PAJain]

OMFS, ENT, PRS have some overlap but differ significantly. To go into PRS you have to do hand, microvascular, wound care, burns, breast, etc..OMFS is great for someone who just wants to do facial surgery.

 

[liriano]

I see your point about competition. Like I said previously, I understand that competition is good for the field. But that is not my argument. To answer some of your complaints:

I understand that ENT is five years. I was using this residency as an example comparable to the OMFS program that med students can enter. Dental students cannot enter an ENT residency while taking med school classes. A med student CAN enter an OMFS residency and take dental school classes. It is an accelerated program which has no equivalent (a dental student going to med school while in an anesthesiology residency for example). As a graduated dentist, I must apply for med school, get in, complete four years, and then go into a five year program IF I get selected. I am not lamenting the fact that there are no programs within the MD field with an OMFS equivalent - just that the spots taken by med students for the OMFS residency potentially can keep other qualified dental students out. A med graduate can fall back to numerous other specialties if no OMFS program would take him/her. There are only a few specialties that a dental student can enter - so spots are more coveted.

Of course, a DDS/MD can complete OMFS and then train in any residency of their choosing as well upon completion, which kind of offsets the imbalance. Despite this, I look forward to the challenge of proving you wrong about entering an OMFS residency, since you do so well in judging my chances/character/future disposition through my posts.

As I read the post from Liriano about fear of med student applicants making OMFS more competative and proposing caps/restrictions... that comes off as a bit silly. Especially when he mentions that even after getting a full 3 year DDS, it's somehow unfair that an MD student be "allowed" to apply to OMFS... then he goes on to say "where is the 6 year ENT/MD spot for dental grads?" Hmm... where do I start?

3 things... First of all... your entire post reflects poorly on your OMFS colleagues. Secondly, an ENT residency is already 5 years after med school. Thirdly, your arguing that you should be able to cut out 3 full years of med school and combine it to 6 years? My guess is that the only thing the OMFS field has to fear is that a person like yourself might make it through an OMFS program. You're the same type that will complain about your partners getting more cases than you just because they "work harder." yeah... that makes sense.

If you care about the future and advancement of your field, then you should want as many competative applicants as possible. It sounds rather insecure to want to keep MD's out of the field due to fear of a more competative applicant pool. As it sounds, I wouldnt have a "free pass"... I would have to get my DDS. So that leads me to believe all this is just insecurity that my MD might just make my application more attractive. If that's a suprise to you, then dont be shocked if you apply to an ENT residency out of med school and get beat out by a guy with an MD/PhD... that's just the way it works-- the more initials after your name, the more attractive of a candidate you are.

That's like banning soccer players from playing football (or visa versa) out of fear they might take some of the kicker jobs. If I'm a coach (program director), I dont care where you came from if you can kick the shiz out of a football.

But, thankfully, the OMFS people I've talked don't share this insecurity and welcome us a collegues... especially since the ones I know also bare MD initials as well as DDS after their names. But whatever, I guess it's better I hear this sort of chatter now rather than later... I really hope the rest of the OMFS field isn't as insecure. Please tell me I'm wrong.

Noonan

 

[Danny Noonan]

Liriano, sorry for the character judgement... Best of luck to you. Just thought it would be nice if this thread stuck to the point -- What are the options for an MD with an interest in OMFS. I guess I didn't see the point in arguing the fundamental right to do so.

 

[liriano]

^ Point taken. Ultimately the most qualified applicants will get spots. It is up to myself (and anyone else interested) to make a CV worthy of considertion regardless of previous training. Good luck!

 

[50 CAL BMG]

Hey guys, I have a burning question that I'm hoping will get some helpful responses. I've just finished my 3rd year as a med student at a US MD school. I have planned thus far to apply to ENT residencies in the upcoming year. Because of my exposure to ENT I've also gotten to work in the OR with some really inspiring OMF guys. So that brings me here. I want to know what my options are of getting into the field from the MD route.

I've researched it on the surface and I've noticed there is not a lot or readily available info for MDs wanting to go into MFS. I know there are programs that offer it though.

Anyone have any thoughtful advice here? Perhaps someone that has done it or knows someone who did? Are programs excited to have MD applicants? Is it easier/harder to get in? Is there any way to get match into the residency right out of med school and get my Dental degree in combo?

Here are my stats:

Step1: 240/99
Class Rank: Somewhere in top half (that's all they tell us)
Research: 1 pub (derm case report), 1 submitted (radiology review), 1 ENT chart review in progress.
Other: I think I may have a talent/hobby or two that may set me apart.

So I'm hoping for some helpful feedback... it's been burning on my mind for a while and it's definitly time to do something about it being that I just started 4th year. I'll keep researching in the meantime. Thanks guys... if you're anything like the OMF's I've met I'm sure I'll get some good help.

Noonan

So you went all the way through med school, only to find out that you wanted to be a dentist?

 

[armorshell]

So you went all the way through med school, only to find out that you wanted to be a dentist?

You could make the same argument about anyone who is doing a 6 year OMFS/MD program.

I think it's perfectly reasonable to allow MD students to apply for OMFS as long as they're willing to jump through all the hoops of getting and becoming licensed as a DDS.

I personally think it's admirable that someone whose probably qualified enough to do ENT or PRS right out of school would be willing to go to dental school, pay out the butt for tuition, spend 3 years doing cleanings and fillings just so they can do OMFS.

 

[EL GUAPO!]

So you went all the way through med school, only to find out that you wanted to be a dentist?

DENTIST. This is the classic label attached to OMFS when someone is trying to oversimplify and/or slander the specialty, or in this case, to discourage someone else from pursuing OMFS. Dentist is a label that typically conjures up thoughts of someone who fixes teeth. Time spent in residency training learning how to fix teeth : 0%. Time spent in residency training learning medicine, trauma, orthognathics, surgical head and neck pathology management, facial cosmetic surgery, dentoalveolar surgery, TMJ surgery, etc... : 100%. Am I dentist? Yes. Am I a physician? Yes. What is the complete package? An oral and maxillofacial surgeon. The attempt above is to reduce OMFS to a single component of the whole and thereby paint an inaccurate picture. Obviously, there is nothing wrong with the term dentist or with being a dentist, but it's application here and at other times is purposefully inaccurate.

Personally, I think OMFS is the cat's meow. I have had very good exposure to most of what dentistry and medicine have to offer and I wouldn't want to be anywhere in either of them more than being in OMFS. I think most OMFS guys feel that way.

Opening an easier pathway for MD's into OMFS will only lead to more applicants and a better field to choose from. Dental students interested in OMS don't want more competion in an already competitive specialty, and they will naturally resist it... until they become a resident. Then they become in favor of accepting MD's into OMS. Particularly if they are in a dual degree program.

 

[50 CAL BMG]

DENTIST. This is the classic label attached to OMFS when someone is trying to oversimplify and/or slander the specialty, or in this case, to discourage someone else from pursuing OMFS. Dentist is a label that typically conjures up thoughts of someone who fixes teeth. Time spent in residency training learning how to fix teeth : 0%. Time spent in residency training learning medicine, trauma, orthognathics, surgical head and neck pathology management, facial cosmetic surgery, dentoalveolar surgery, TMJ surgery, etc... : 100%. Am I dentist? Yes. Am I a physician? Yes. What is the complete package? An oral and maxillofacial surgeon. The attempt above is to reduce OMFS to a single component of the whole and thereby paint an inaccurate picture. Obviously, there is nothing wrong with the term dentist or with being a dentist, but it's application here and at other times is purposefully inaccurate.

Personally, I think OMFS is the cat's meow. I have had very good exposure to most of what dentistry and medicine have to offer and I wouldn't want to be anywhere in either of them more than being in OMFS. I think most OMFS guys feel that way.

Opening an easier pathway for MD's into OMFS will only lead to more applicants and a better field to choose from. Dental students interested in OMS don't want more competion in an already competitive specialty, and they will naturally resist it... until they become a resident. Then they become in favor of accepting MD's into OMS. Particularly if they are in a dual degree program.

I appreciate all of your two cents... Obviously I wasn't trying to by slanderous toward dentists. Just trying to relate to the OP that it's more like implant pros than nip tuck.

 

[sabdul]

So MD applicants apply to dual degree programs? Wouldn't it make more sense if they applied to the 4 year DDS programs?

 

[toofache32]

So MD applicants apply to dual degree programs? Wouldn't it make more sense if they applied to the 4 year DDS programs?

Then how would they get a dental degree? A dental degree is required, an MD is optional.

 

[shabu2]

Toof,

Isn't it about time you changed your status from "resident" to "attending"? Congrats on all of your accomplishments over the years and your contributions to SDN and OMFS.

 

[toofache32]

Toof,

Isn't it about time you changed your status from "resident" to "attending"? Congrats on all of your accomplishments over the years and your contributions to SDN and OMFS.

Well, I'm still in training technically. And I'm going back to my home insitution....once a resident, always a resident.

 

[aphistis]

Well, I'm still in training technically. And I'm going back to my home insitution....once a resident, always a resident.

There's a "fellow" label too.

 

[apicalmeristems]

I hate to throw fuel on the fire, but I would like to comment.

First off, let's draw a comparison. Is it possible for a dental student to be admitted to a medical residency out of dental school? Aha, impossible. But then people would argue that the combined OMFS/MD programs bypass this effect - not really. In the end, the resident is going to be an oral surgeon.

Imagine if a dental student applied to a combined ENT/MD program. That would be ludicrous, at least the ENT community would believe so. As far as I'm concerned, I feel that combined DDS/OMFS programs kind of discredit our profession (the dental profession). I am all for medical students becoming oral surgeons, but please apply to dental school first and then wait in line like everyone else. That is the same rule a dentist would have to follow if suddenly tomorrow he or she decided to become a cardiologist.

My two cents. Take care and good luck.

AM

 

[liriano]

^ Couldn't have stated it any better.