Hey everyone, so I have received offers of admission to Xavier and Trinity for this upcoming semester, as well as AUA for the Fall Semester. Any students out there have experience at these schools? How are they in terms of quality of teaching? I know there are some 'mixed views' about the Caribbean system, but I'm a Canadian who has lived a lot of places, and want to go through the Caribbean system. Any particular 'red flags' about any of these institutins? I am trying to figure out whether to start at Xavier or Trinity this semester or wait it out one more semester for an AUA intake. Any input from current students would be greatly appreciated.
Questions for Students of Xavier, Trinity, or AUA
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Do not go to any of these schools if you know what is good for you. Trinity and Xavier are outright scams. AUA is more established than the other two but is still not one of the main island schools matching students into residency. Many of the students attending these lower tier caribbean institutions are individuals who failed out of one the big 4 and are living in a land of the make-believe with regards to their future prospects practicing medicine.
As someone who just finished at one of the big 4 Caribs schools, please reconsider going. I know it sounds like everyone on this site who says not to go this route doesn't know what they are talking about, but their advise cannot be more accurate. Life down there is miserable, and it is a grueling uphill battle to make it back to states for residency. It also does not become very apparent what kind of odds you have to beat until you need to apply to 200 residences programs in a primary care speciality while US students only need to apply to 20. And this is coming from one of the "better" caribbean schools. The first time pass rate at one of the schools you listed is 18% on the USMLE step 1. Think about that for a minute.
As someone who just finished at one of the big 4 Caribs schools, please reconsider going. I know it sounds like everyone on this site who says not to go this route doesn't know what they are talking about, but their advise cannot be more accurate. Life down there is miserable, and it is a grueling uphill battle to make it back to states for residency. It also does not become very apparent what kind of odds you have to beat until you need to apply to 200 residences programs in a primary care speciality while US students only need to apply to 20. And this is coming from one of the "better" caribbean schools. The first time pass rate at one of the schools you listed is 18% on the USMLE step 1. Think about that for a minute.
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There aren't "mixed views"
The views are overwhelmingly - almost unanimously - negative.
Go here if you hate money.
The views are overwhelmingly - almost unanimously - negative.
Go here if you hate money.
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Recent AUA grad here , I posted my review of the school here : AUA REVIEW AMERICAN UNIVERSITY OF ANTIGUA .
Thank you guys for the insight and the review. I spoke with some folks at Trinity and out of the options, Trinity definitely seemed the 'most sketchy' out of all of them. In their student handbook on page 1 there is a small note that states something along the lines of: 'any guidelines or policies outlined in this ridiculously long book can be over-ridden by pretty much anyone for any reason at any time'. When I asked the admin about it there was an awkward pause and hesitation when I asked if that has been 'misused' in the past. The answer was literally awkward pause and some 'word garbage'.
I have one more interview lined up for AUC as well. There seems to be a ton of options, and I understand that it's not 'ideal' (ok, everyone seems to make it sound terrible), but to be honest I don't want to go to the Canadian schools (it's cold and terrible here). I haven't looked at US Schools (mostly schools outside of Canada and USA - US born but lived in Canada my whole life so had to ditch the US Citizenship). I do have 2 degrees, GPA 3.9 average b/w the two, volunteer work in Africa, Philippines, Mx, Panama, Canada - Researcher by trade, and fluent in 4 languages. But I have not written the MCAT (took the courses a few years ago and would probably have to re-do them just to do well on the exam).
I would take the courses, but I don't come from a 'rich family', I do have savings but would rather use those towards 'hopping on the med school train' quickly instead of re-doing courses, writing MCAT, and hoping for the best for potentially years. Thus I want to cut the time and make sure wherever I choose to go is kind of the 'best of the worst' if that makes sense. I am aware the Caribbean system is not ideal, but I work hard in school, and I think living on an island would be a great opportunity/study space (i.e. something most students wouldn't get). I have done quite a bit of researching on schools and they all kind of seem to be plagued by slight variations of the same problems, I am just looking 'more or less' for a path that will get me to where I want to be (regardless of how much of a '**** show' it may be), but I would prefer someplace that treats students fairly (even if faculty is - as I have read - some good, most bad at teaching). When I say fair, I mean more along the lines of don't actively seek out to make students' lives harder and somewhat sticking to the 'mission, vision, and values' they all advertise.
Also thank you guys for the insight, it is a big decision, a big gamble, and I really do appreciate all of your input and links.
I have one more interview lined up for AUC as well. There seems to be a ton of options, and I understand that it's not 'ideal' (ok, everyone seems to make it sound terrible), but to be honest I don't want to go to the Canadian schools (it's cold and terrible here). I haven't looked at US Schools (mostly schools outside of Canada and USA - US born but lived in Canada my whole life so had to ditch the US Citizenship). I do have 2 degrees, GPA 3.9 average b/w the two, volunteer work in Africa, Philippines, Mx, Panama, Canada - Researcher by trade, and fluent in 4 languages. But I have not written the MCAT (took the courses a few years ago and would probably have to re-do them just to do well on the exam).
I would take the courses, but I don't come from a 'rich family', I do have savings but would rather use those towards 'hopping on the med school train' quickly instead of re-doing courses, writing MCAT, and hoping for the best for potentially years. Thus I want to cut the time and make sure wherever I choose to go is kind of the 'best of the worst' if that makes sense. I am aware the Caribbean system is not ideal, but I work hard in school, and I think living on an island would be a great opportunity/study space (i.e. something most students wouldn't get). I have done quite a bit of researching on schools and they all kind of seem to be plagued by slight variations of the same problems, I am just looking 'more or less' for a path that will get me to where I want to be (regardless of how much of a '**** show' it may be), but I would prefer someplace that treats students fairly (even if faculty is - as I have read - some good, most bad at teaching). When I say fair, I mean more along the lines of don't actively seek out to make students' lives harder and somewhat sticking to the 'mission, vision, and values' they all advertise.
Also thank you guys for the insight, it is a big decision, a big gamble, and I really do appreciate all of your input and links.
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As a current Caribbean student myself, you would be a complete idiot to not take the MCAT and apply US schools with a 3.9GPA and Canadian citizenship. It isn't about "working hard" in Carib schools, you obviously need to do that to just pass. Go take a look at match data and see how many competitive residencies you see. Any derm? nope. Ortho? Maybe 1-2. Uro/Opthalo/ENT/NSGY? Probably 0-2 total. That's out of a match list of over 300-800 students btw depending on the school you choose. Do yourself a favor, take the MCAT. If you blow it then reconsider your options. Also SGU, Ross, AUC, should be the only ones to really go to if you choose Carib.
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Basically this.
Caribbean is not necessarily something you should never consider, but those scenarios in which the Caribbean should be considered are few and far between. You need to have genuinely tried to get into US or Canadian medical school. You need to have veritable black marks on your profile that actively exclude you from consideration at US medical schools. Even then, it may not be that great of an idea.
Do not voluntarily walk into this.
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I certainly hope your school is providing you with honest and accurate information regarding what you need to match and where you will be competitive. I think it is common knowledge amongst those who are considering or have graduated from offshore programs that competitive specialties are nearly impossible to obtain so I don't know why you would think derm and or ortho would be options for almost any student who wants to apply to an offshore program.
From my experience I remember shadowing an IM guy back in the early 2000's who went to school in Bosnia and was describing how he was once told by a PD that diagnostic radiology was off the table if you were not a US grad. This was maybe a decade and a half ago so this is not something new. Despite that, there are still a few students who seem to match rads from the top programs but I see that as more of the exception. I went to SGU and I can tell you that the mindset was not "We're all going to be future dermatologists."
I think it is understood that going to the Caribbean is a second-chance opportunity for most everyone who would otherwise end up in alternative careers. Those that accept this second-chance opportunity appear to be happy with a primary care position. Those that end up getting EM, Anesthesia, or Surgery will tend to be at or near the top of their class. Some of the lower schools will not even see matches in those specialties.
How many ortho matches were you looking to see from a Caribbean program lol?
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That's exactly what I'm bringing up. He is saying he will just work harder and knows its a bit more difficult to get residencies from a Carib school. I was illustrating a point in that it isn't just hard, that it is practically impossible. You say most people know this fact but that's not really correct. Prior to actually going to these schools a good portion of students think that this is just an alternate pathway rather than an inferior one. Most of the people I was in pre-orientation with when they were initially touring the school were talking about goals or ortho, plastics, whatever. I try to inform people at any stage possible but you'd be surprised how many people just believe misinformation spewed by some of these schools.
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Match rate for CARMs for caribs is like 17% or something so if he wants to practice in Canada, odds are he'll have to do a US residency and then try to get it converted over too so any year or two he'd save going to carib would kinda go to waste as it'd take time to get fully credentialed there.
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Where is your data on that lol?
Regarding the original post, I just read that the OP has not taken the MCAT. I don't understand why someone would post a "what are my chances" type of question without having a required document for admission. Even if you have a 4.0GPA, you cannot predict what your MCAT score will be.
I don't know which Caribbean medical school you attend but if you have students walking around talking about future ortho, neuro, or plastics residencies then I would say the problem is more with the school and less with the student as a successful student will understand what can be accomplished and what cannot be accomplished by taking this route.
I graduated SGU and I can't recall every coming across someone with with ambitions of othropedic surgery either on the island or during my rotations. As I stated in a previous post, the SGU clinical department speaks to all the students during the very first term and pretty clearly lays out the path required to match.
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Current students do not dream of ortho or whatever. I'm talking about prospective students before they enroll/before they start class (AKA the OP). I go to Ross, they do mention figures and while don't straight up say you won't get these residencies, they do say that ~70% match primary care and that everyone needs a backup plan. Before people get these lectures though, a lot of them are blissfully ignorant. Carib schools are businesses afterall and they won't go and tout these numbers during interviews/informational seminars. The numbers aren't hidden, people can find out, but not everyone is aware of the stigma with IMGs.
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Ok, then I suppose in this situation that it would be appropriate to warn that type of student that the Caribbean is not for them.
Now, what I have seen on this site is a negative default attitude towards ALL students who are considering the Caribbean as an option and I personally disagree with that because it is obviously a stance rooted in some type of bias because nobody on this forum has the answer to who does and does not succeed in which route they choose to take.
If you are able to differentiate between those who are clearly not prepared or aware of the realities of these programs and those who are well aware of the pros and cons of these programs then you have my blessing with telling the former that they should avoid going to an offshore school.
Ok so so far I've seen some posts from SGU and Ross and AUA (really appreciated thank you) but none from (given the sketchy-ness of Trinity they are kind of out - plus the constant calling from them is nearing the level of 'creepy'), Xavier or AUC. It would be really appreciated to get some insight from students who actually go there. Yes I realize and am aware of (I do have friends that go to some of the other lower-tiered schools - I help tutor them and some are pretty good, others I am often surprised about how little they know), but as I mentioned previously, it may be a second chance for some. However, I enjoy going to different places, doing things a bit differently. I am not looking for the "top residency match" (i.e. no interest in Derm, Plastics, Ortho). I am not looking to become a physician primarily for the money and prestige. Primary care would be alright with me. However, Emerg. and Neuro are my jam at the moment, and Peds or Psych wouldn't be too bad either. It's not only that Canada is 'cold and terrible', but I would like to do something 'non-traditional'. As one of the posters noted, GPA grades etc. aren't predictive of MCAT scores (thus while I do well, it would take time to do all the courses again to keep up the GPA, put in the time for an exam, hope for the best), when I can walk into a school where I may or may not (banking on the 'may') do very well and move up quickly. I have done tons of research, sorting through and attempting to differentiate between the pros and cons of a lot of the schools. Looking at what is advertised, basically sorting through the various "90%+ USMLE Pass Rates First Attempt" kind of deals advertised. I appreciate input from other students. Yes I have Killer grades, Yes I have killer experience. No I don't have an MCAT. No I don't particularly care if I return to Canada or not. Based off of the info presented to me by my friends, sorting through the resources available, I am really at this point looking for personal experiences (e.g. the kind person who posted their link to their experience). I do appreciate the warnings from students, however, it would be awesome to know which schools you came from, and whether your insight is firsthand or not. I have some friends who went to some really terrible schools, but murdered their USMLE. Could happen to me, could also not. That is the gamble. I am assuming based off of my history of experience that I will excel anywhere, but living on an island is a different experience. I have also worked with IMGs who went to some really terrible schools, but matched into Canada (so I have some insight there). Some were exceptional doctors who very clearly outperformed others (mostly because of what they had to do to get to where they were). I'm open for challenges. I'm also open for firsthand advice from students who attend these schools. I really just want honest advice from current students. Sure I could probably get into a Canadian School, I could also potentially not. I could play the 'wait and see' game, but that could be a waste of time. I could look at US schools too should I choose, but then again, could get in, could potentially not. Anyways, I have spent a lot of time looking at different programs, and I really think that I would excel. Also I am not restricting myself to unrealistic expectations. I am aware of the chances presented to me. I am just at the end of the day wondering about first-hand experiences is all. Just to make sure I can actually make an informed decision. And thank you again everyone for your comments, they are helpful and I do follow up with looking into what is stated in the comments, they are informative and helpful, and appreciated.
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Come on, the dude isn't even prepared to take the MCAT, you think he is prepared to attend medical school?
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I don't think you read my post thoroughly. Read it again, it should answer your question.
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You deserve so much better than to end up at one of these places. Anyone does, but especially someone who can probably succeed going the traditional route. Why do a potential career fatality for no reason?
The reasons for not going offshore are not really apparent to you at your stage (I know because I've been there). But over time you see the kind of torture these places put you through over 4+ years and you come to see why everything said against Caribbean schools is true. And this is coming from someone who attended one of the "good" offshore schools. I can't even imagine how it is at one of the places no one has even heard of.
The reasons for not going offshore are not really apparent to you at your stage (I know because I've been there). But over time you see the kind of torture these places put you through over 4+ years and you come to see why everything said against Caribbean schools is true. And this is coming from someone who attended one of the "good" offshore schools. I can't even imagine how it is at one of the places no one has even heard of.
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Probably instant gratification.
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I get that. But it doesn't count for much when you have to take additional time to graduate and apply multiple cycles to match into some malignant prelim IM spot in the middle of nowhere (a scenario almost unheard of from students at US MD/DO schools). Which the OP seems capable of getting into
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I do not think he/she is seeing it in that light. He/she believes they can do well in Caribbean school based on a history of good academic record. OP please stop being delusional, take the MCAT and see if you are all that capable as you think you are.
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So maybe OP needs to think about it like this
Go to a US MD/DO school-90-95% of graduating on time AND getting the specialty of your choice in a place you want to live
Go to a lesser known Carib school-50% chance of graduating at all, 50% of matching once you get to graduation, and maybe 50% of matching into your specialty of choice depending on where your interests lie. If it's something remotely competitive that number plummets.
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I pointed this out in an earlier post but US programs cater to a certain student and the offshore programs each cater to a certain student.
I think you all mean well by advising the current pre-meds to "go to a US MD/DO school" but the reality is some people just will not get in and that is not debateable. This idea that if you just keep trying you will get in is unwarranted. I'm sure that the MCAT prep companies and admissions consultants make a ton of money off this type of student though lol.
I'm not advocating that the Caribbean should be your first choice. I don't think anybody would advise that. SGU actually refunds your first term tuition if you then matriculate into a US program so even they understand that a US spot is the better option but a school like SGU can give certain students an opportunity to become doctors instead of pursuing other careers altogether and you need to understand that for what it is.
You can't have a subforum for the Caribbean on this site only to use as a punching bag. There are students out there who are looking for unbiased advice and sadly for some of them they come here to get it because nobody really knows a lot about these schools until they attend and graduate from them.
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I agree and beautifully said. also i want to add where does this 50% match rate come from????? if you going off base NRMP report , it was 50 % four years ago for ALL IMG. it is now 60 % for ALL IMG . there is no specific data for each Caribbean school . but I guarantee to you if you attend any of the TOP 5 Caribbean school and make it out of island , then you have same matching rate as US SCHOOLS for Primary specialities . For top specialities even , SGU and AUC are up par with US SCHools , but same cant be said for ROSS, AUA, or SABA. point is stop spreading false info based on old data . btw I am AUA student not SGU, so please don't tell me i support SGU because i go there . these are facts . yes it is very challenging to make it off the island, yes you have to apply lot more programs , yes your speciality choices are more limited , but at the end you fulfill your dream and become a doctor . us schools are better since you dont have to worry about getting kicked out , spend lot less on application, and higher chance for TOP SPECIALITIES, but please don't undermine Carribean medical schools based on false data.
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I didn’t know whether to laugh or cry while reading your post. If you really are as smart as you claim you are and really do have a 3.9 gpa, you would know that risk aversion is the name of the game here. The answer here is to take the MCAT and apply to Canadian and US schools. I.e if you don’t want your career to become a tragedy, which is highly likely if you attend any of the schools you mentioned here.
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Have you checked out schools in other commonwealth countries? Med schools are a little easier to get into in the UK and Australia than Canada or the US. A degree from a commonwealth country will easily transfer to Canada and won't be looked down upon. Much safer way to go instead of going to a Caribbean school.
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Sadly, you won't have that opportunity. Step 1 is now P/F. Step 2 may very well be by the time you are allowed to take it (if you are allowed to take it).
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I know that I'm really deviating and not providing you with an answer to your original question. I completely understand if you ignore my response, as it's unsolicited.
I see the appeal of going to the Caribbean for med school. You want to try something different, maybe experience some culture and enjoy the heat. Once you're there though, if you want to do well in your classes, you'll be spending most of your time inside. I think the time to mix school and new cultural experiences is better achieved in undergrad via an exchange, when the stakes aren't so high - when you're not sacrificing so much in terms of future opportunities.
I have met many Canadians who went the Caribbean route and ended up practicing in Canada and the US, so it's something that can be done. However, it's hard to make it back to Canada (especially for residency) and unless you're a citizen of another country you will be trying to get a residency position somewhere (probably the US) as a non-citizen. Who knows what the political climate will be like when you go to apply for residency, or even when you need to get a student visa to do your clinical rotations in a US hospital. I think the student visa situation will work out, but there are no guarantees.
I'm not trying to alarm you. If you go to the Caribbean, which it looks like you will, just keep your options open and don't be afraid to cut your losses. I knew people in school that kept applying to Canadian medical schools while they were in a Caribbean school. They didn't want to put their dreams on hold but felt that even with a year or 2 of med school under their belt that it would make better sense to start from zero at a Canadian school than continue on the Caribbean route.
From what you've written, you seem to have a positive attitude and that is great. Med school can really run you down, so staying upbeat and optimistic are essential. I just think that you should get the best you can when it comes to a medical education. For some people, the Caribbean is the best they can get so that's what they go for. I think you should at least apply to the Canadian schools that don't require the MCAT. You probably worked so hard for that 3.9 GPA - utilize it.
I won't bog down your thread with this rambling again. I just don't want anyone's life to be harder than it has to be.
Peace and good luck with school.
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Lots of anecdotal experiences forming the basis of arguments on this topic all over this site.
OP, go ask a Canadian student who went to one of these schools about their experience. I don't know how the other schools work with their alumni network but if you call up St. George's they will put you in touch with Canadian students who have recently matched and gone through the process that you are describing. Speak to them and see if this is something you want to do. People telling you to don't do this or don't do that or you're life will be hard, etc. are not speaking from experience.
IMO, matching in the US as a Canadian student is harder than matching as a US resident but I wouldn't say it is impossible. I do think that you should go to a school that has successfully matched more Canadian students in which case I would say the schools you suggested are not the most competitive. SGU has Canadian students who matched surgery and anesthesia in 2019 and 2020 so those would be the people you want to speak to and it doesn't hurt to speak to them whether you go to SGU or not.
As a generalization, I would say the Canadian students at SGU were, as a group, "smarter" than the US students as a whole.
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A few won't turn any head, but lots of them with the same consensus is a different story.
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Because this forum is largely dedicated to pre-meds, the sole audience that should be reading those stories.Lol, and it's funny how those "lots of them" stories end up on this site.
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Friend went to SGU and matched prelim surgery. She worked her ass off networking. I just wanted to add she did not recommend going carib.
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I give up lol.
OP...
Just take the MCAT and see how you perform on standardized exams. The MCAT is a pretty good predictor of how you will do on the USMLE. You probably know that. You have an excellent GPA and it will be foolish to bypass the MCAT. As someone who went to one of the big 4 , I’m going to tell you that it is an uphill battle.
Ultimately, you will decide which way to go in regards to your medical education.
But at least sit for the MCAT once...
and It may open many many doors for your future...
Just take the MCAT and see how you perform on standardized exams. The MCAT is a pretty good predictor of how you will do on the USMLE. You probably know that. You have an excellent GPA and it will be foolish to bypass the MCAT. As someone who went to one of the big 4 , I’m going to tell you that it is an uphill battle.
Ultimately, you will decide which way to go in regards to your medical education.
But at least sit for the MCAT once...
and It may open many many doors for your future...
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1. It never was and you would know this since you "are someone who went to one of the big 4."
2. If the MCAT predicted STEP1 performance, well I guess they will be making it P/F in the near future.
3. MCAT is a tool used to screen applicants for admission to US MEDICAL SCHOOLS to thin the herd. The MCAT is not an exam that predicts performance in medical school. Your medical school exams and your understanding of UWorld will predict how you perform on STEP1.
The whole Caribbean system is red flags...
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lol, explain what those "red flags" are.
I matched and so have tens of thousands of others. If you are an attending as you suggest then I would imagine you have worked alongside some of these graduates.
Kudos to you and I'm glad it worked out for you. But how many have tried and failed before and after you? The mass grave of Caribbean students with nowhere to go.. and an insurmountable debt that they need to overcome.
And I have had much contact with Caribbean students as I am from NYC and did all my medical school rotations alongside them.
We tend to frequently hear more from the success stories.. because those individuals are more inclined to share their success..
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As far as I am aware, all the offshore programs are for-profit. The business model of a for-profit institution unfortunately does not allow for hand-holding. I agree that accumulating a significant amount of student loan debt with no degree is a terrible proposition but by the take token one has to ask themselves if they are equipped to study medicine in the first place and if they enter any of these schools with the hope that they will become stellar students or the school will let them breeze through then that is some poor reasoning that will come with some consequences. From my experience at SGU, those who worked hard matched and you just can't argue that against those who tried and failed.
Well, if you have had much contact with Caribbean students then obviously you don't really believe these programs are a part of a system with red flags.
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The point here isn't that there are successful Carib grads. The point is how many additional obstacles to success you face by going to a Carib school.
Quoting the wise gyngyn: The pool of US applicants from the Caribbean is viewed differently by Program Directors. The DDx for a Caribbean grad is pretty off-putting: bad judgment, bad advice, egotism, gullibility, overbearing parents, inability to delay gratification, IA's, legal problems, weak research skills, high risk behavior. This is not to say that all of them still have the quality that drew them into this situation. There is just no way to know which ones they are. Some PD's are in a position where they need to, or can afford to take risks too! So, some do get interviews.
Bad grades and scores are the least of the deficits from a PD's standpoint. A strong academic showing in a Caribbean medical school does not erase this stigma. It fact it increases the perception that the reason for the choice was on the above-mentioned list!
Just about everyone from a Caribbean school has one or more of these problems and PDs know it. That's why their grads are the last choice even with a high Step 1 score.
There was a time when folks whose only flaw was being a late bloomer went Carib, but those days are gone. There are a number of US med schools that will reward reinvention.
It's likely you'll be in the bottom half or two thirds of the class that gets dismissed before Step 1. The business plan of a Carib school depends on the majority of the class not needing to be supported in clinical rotations. They literally can't place all 250+ of the starting class at clinical sites (educational malpractice, really. If this happened at a US school, they be shut down by LCME or COCA, and sued.
The Carib (and other offshore) schools have very tenuous, very expensive, very controversial relationships with a very small number of US clinical sites. You may think you can just ask to do your clinical rotations at a site near home. Nope. You may think you don't have to worry about this stuff. Wrong.
And let's say you get through med school in the Carib and get what you need out of the various clinical rotation scenarios. Then you are in the match gamble. I don't need to say a word about this - you can find everything you need to know at nrmp.org.
You really need to talk to people who made it through Carib threshing machine (like mikkus) into residency, and hear the story from them. How many people were in their class at the start, how many are in it now? How long did it take to get a residency, and how did they handle the gap year(s) and their student loans? How many residencies did they apply to, how many interviews did they get, and were any of the programs on their match list anything like what they wanted?
A little light reading:
The PD's guide tells how how leery PDs are at even considering Carib grads:
Million $ Mistake
http://www.tameersiddiqui.com/medical-school-at-sgu
"Why didn't I Match?"
The ugly truth about Caribbean medical schools - Pamela Wible MD
Discover what really goes on behind the scenes at Caribbean med schools before making a huge mistake. Pros & cons from a student who knows what it's like.
www.idealmedicalcare.org
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^ Those are beyond terrible resources.
Also, in case you want to update your copypasta, the Tameer Siddiqui blog no longer exists.
Also, in case you want to update your copypasta, the Tameer Siddiqui blog no longer exists.
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Thought I was the only one who noticed that blog was taken down. I agree though that these are bad resources. The author of "million dollar mistake" sounds like he has some mental health issues, the youtube video is from a guy who dropped out of residency, and Tameer's blog is very melodramatic and histrionic. Although some of what Goro is saying is true, I do think his "light reading" needs to be updated.
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"Dr. Kevin Jubbal" is one of those application consultants who charges $300 an hour. He makes money by telling people not to go to the Caribbean lol.
I actually read the Tameer Siddiqui blog before I started school when it was ripe with activity. In that blog she clearly pointed out that she was not prepared for medical school but she used it to attack SGU for basically kicking her out. I don't know if @Goro read that blog in its entirety but the author was not saying "don't go to the Caribbean" she was actually saying "don't go to SGU" because she didn't like their anatomy lab and because their course repeat policy was whack lol. What's more ludicrous about that particular blog was that she was advocating going to the lesser known schools if you had the choice! It was quite the entertaining read but not something I would take seriously.
For those that choose to go to a school like SGU, you are responsible for any obstacles you face. The advice that I advocate for is make sure that you really want to become a doctor first and if you obviously will not get a spot at a US program in the near future, go to an established program like SGU and you will get an MD if you put the work in. There are no surprises. I can't speak for any of the lesser schools however. You would have to ask students who went there.
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Seems like time to recycle this post again:
Hopefully a "fair and balanced" review of offshore schools:
The bottom line is that Carib schools (especially Med Schools) are a mixed bag. Calling them "a scam" or "a waste" is ridiculous. Saying that they are "equivalent to US schools" is also untrue:
1. They accept people who cannot get into a US medical school. Whether you see this as "giving deserving people who messed up their GPA / can't do well on the MCAT a second chance" or "leeching tuition off of desperate students who can't get into US medical schools" depends on how you view the situation.
1A. Some people decide to apply to the Caribbean without trying in the US/Canada first. Usually, their argument is that it is too time consuming, and there's no guarantee of success, and in the Carib they could "just start now". This is true -- if you start in the Carib now and graduate on time, you save lots of time. But, you give up specialty choice (and lots of people change their mind about what they are interested in during medical school) and program choice (your options will be much more limited). Also, some people decide to go to the Carib because some schools do not require the MCAT. You should be very wary of any school that doesn't require the MCAT.
2. Top performers in Carib schools will do fine, and be able to get mid-competitive fields /spots. Anesthesia, EM, Rads, University IM, etc. But even this is not guaranteed. Ortho/NS/Vascular/Derm is very unlikely even for the top performers, and usually requires years of research and/or connections.
3. Middle performers will also do fine, but often end up in FM / Community IM / peds / Psych / Neuro / Path. Nothing wrong with those fields, but those attending Carib schools should understand that their choices may be limited.
4. Those at the bottom of their class, failing a class, or worse failing a step, often have much more problems. Students retake, pass, and then think everything will be OK, and it might not be. These students might still match, but it's much harder.
4b. Everyone thinks they will be in the top 25%. Only 25% can be in the top 25%. No one can tell if that's going to be you. Remember that "top 25%" when we're talking about USMLE is compared with everyone who takes it, not just those at your school.
5. A reasonable percentage of all students starting in carib schools fail out in the first 2 years. Exactly how high that percentage is, is unclear. It clearly varies by school. Some see this as "The school takes more students than it has clinical spots for, and then fails them out to make more money". Others see it as "These schools know that some percentage of students will fail out. Rather than leave clinical spots empty, they take enough pre-clinical students so that their clinical spots are filled -- this offers the maximum number of students an opportunity to be a physician". The crux is whether the pass level is adjusted specifically to fail out people, or whether it's set at some reasonable benchmark and some people happen to fail.
The other part of this discussion usually revolves around "Well, the school takes people with very low MCAT's and then they fail out -- it's a scam and they should have a higher MCAT cutoff". Data from the LCME shows that lower MCAT scores tend to be associated with failing the USMLE. But population statistics don't tell you how any one person will do -- some people with low MCAT's do just fine. So, again, how you interpret this depends upon how you look at it.
6. Not all schools are created equal. The most established schools are SGU and Ross, and from my viewpoint the two are probably equivalent. SGU appears to be more expensive (although prices change, this may not be accurate in the future). Ross appears to take more students and appears to have a higher drop out rate, although no school publishes their drop out rate so it's hard to be certain. Ross had major problems with a hurricane severely damaging Dominica, and has now re-established itself on Barbados -- exactly how that will turn out is unclear. AUC and Saba are often included in the "top 4", AUC is on the "best/safest" (but most expensive) island (also damaged by hurricane), and Saba is often touted as the cheapest. There are many others of varying quality -- expect higher drop out rates and worse match outcomes.
6a. If a medical school you are looking at doesn't require the MCAT, that's a very bad sign.
6b. Lower ranked schools also tend to have worse clinical rotations. It is almost impossible as an applicant to assess the quality of clinical rotations.
7. If you fail out of med school, or can't match to a residency, you really have limited options. A partial MD is of no value. An MD without a residency is also of very limited value, especially an international degree. People talk about "consulting", but I've never seen that actually happen. There are several stories of people getting jobs working for insurance companies, or state disability office, etc. These positions don't pay well, but at least they are something and might qualify for PSLF.
8. If you fail out of school, or can't find a residency because of poor performance, your loans are non-dischargable. Paying them off is very difficult. PSLF or "extreme hardship" may be able to discharge them after 10+ years. if you have a cosigner, they are on the hook just as much as you. I would not recommend that anyone go to a carib medical school if a family member / friend needs to cosign loans.
9. US med schools have increased their class size. Residency spots are also increasing slowly. So far, it hasn't been a problem. It may be that as time goes forward, that IMG's will have further trouble getting even IM and FM spots and the change might happen between the time you matriculate and graduate. But, the opposite might be true also -- spots might grow at a higher rate than students.
So: Going to a Carib school is an uphill process. You need to work harder and be better than your US colleagues to do "equally" well. Carib schools often tout their successes, and ignore the students who never make it to graduation, are only able to get a prelim spot, or not match at all. Yet, at the better carib schools, the majority of students probably succeed (again, difficult to say due to lack of transparency), mainly in the primary care fields. Advertising from these schools (on their websites) doesn't do a great job of balancing these risks and benefits. Threads on SDN tend to tout the negatives, which is probably healthy so that prospective students see the dangers involved.
Assuming that 70% of people who start at SGU don't graduate, let's be 100% honest about the outcomes:
Don't go to SGU, 0% chance of being a doctor. Debt is unchanged.
Go to SGU:
70% chance of matching, great career as physician. All is good (ignoring that you might not get the field you fall in love with)
30% chance of not matching. Now you could be an additional 100K+ in debt, and no way to pay it off, and you can't discharge it in bankruptcy. If you had a cosigner, they are just as responsible. If they actually completed all 4 years and then can't match (worst case scenario), they could easily be 400K in debt.
That's the key issue here. If someone has 200K to blow and they want to try medical school, I think everyone here would say it's their choice. The concern is that everyone going to the carib is certain they won't be the one to fail out, and hence is certain the financial risk is reasonable.
Hopefully a "fair and balanced" review of offshore schools:
The bottom line is that Carib schools (especially Med Schools) are a mixed bag. Calling them "a scam" or "a waste" is ridiculous. Saying that they are "equivalent to US schools" is also untrue:
1. They accept people who cannot get into a US medical school. Whether you see this as "giving deserving people who messed up their GPA / can't do well on the MCAT a second chance" or "leeching tuition off of desperate students who can't get into US medical schools" depends on how you view the situation.
1A. Some people decide to apply to the Caribbean without trying in the US/Canada first. Usually, their argument is that it is too time consuming, and there's no guarantee of success, and in the Carib they could "just start now". This is true -- if you start in the Carib now and graduate on time, you save lots of time. But, you give up specialty choice (and lots of people change their mind about what they are interested in during medical school) and program choice (your options will be much more limited). Also, some people decide to go to the Carib because some schools do not require the MCAT. You should be very wary of any school that doesn't require the MCAT.
2. Top performers in Carib schools will do fine, and be able to get mid-competitive fields /spots. Anesthesia, EM, Rads, University IM, etc. But even this is not guaranteed. Ortho/NS/Vascular/Derm is very unlikely even for the top performers, and usually requires years of research and/or connections.
3. Middle performers will also do fine, but often end up in FM / Community IM / peds / Psych / Neuro / Path. Nothing wrong with those fields, but those attending Carib schools should understand that their choices may be limited.
4. Those at the bottom of their class, failing a class, or worse failing a step, often have much more problems. Students retake, pass, and then think everything will be OK, and it might not be. These students might still match, but it's much harder.
4b. Everyone thinks they will be in the top 25%. Only 25% can be in the top 25%. No one can tell if that's going to be you. Remember that "top 25%" when we're talking about USMLE is compared with everyone who takes it, not just those at your school.
5. A reasonable percentage of all students starting in carib schools fail out in the first 2 years. Exactly how high that percentage is, is unclear. It clearly varies by school. Some see this as "The school takes more students than it has clinical spots for, and then fails them out to make more money". Others see it as "These schools know that some percentage of students will fail out. Rather than leave clinical spots empty, they take enough pre-clinical students so that their clinical spots are filled -- this offers the maximum number of students an opportunity to be a physician". The crux is whether the pass level is adjusted specifically to fail out people, or whether it's set at some reasonable benchmark and some people happen to fail.
The other part of this discussion usually revolves around "Well, the school takes people with very low MCAT's and then they fail out -- it's a scam and they should have a higher MCAT cutoff". Data from the LCME shows that lower MCAT scores tend to be associated with failing the USMLE. But population statistics don't tell you how any one person will do -- some people with low MCAT's do just fine. So, again, how you interpret this depends upon how you look at it.
6. Not all schools are created equal. The most established schools are SGU and Ross, and from my viewpoint the two are probably equivalent. SGU appears to be more expensive (although prices change, this may not be accurate in the future). Ross appears to take more students and appears to have a higher drop out rate, although no school publishes their drop out rate so it's hard to be certain. Ross had major problems with a hurricane severely damaging Dominica, and has now re-established itself on Barbados -- exactly how that will turn out is unclear. AUC and Saba are often included in the "top 4", AUC is on the "best/safest" (but most expensive) island (also damaged by hurricane), and Saba is often touted as the cheapest. There are many others of varying quality -- expect higher drop out rates and worse match outcomes.
6a. If a medical school you are looking at doesn't require the MCAT, that's a very bad sign.
6b. Lower ranked schools also tend to have worse clinical rotations. It is almost impossible as an applicant to assess the quality of clinical rotations.
7. If you fail out of med school, or can't match to a residency, you really have limited options. A partial MD is of no value. An MD without a residency is also of very limited value, especially an international degree. People talk about "consulting", but I've never seen that actually happen. There are several stories of people getting jobs working for insurance companies, or state disability office, etc. These positions don't pay well, but at least they are something and might qualify for PSLF.
8. If you fail out of school, or can't find a residency because of poor performance, your loans are non-dischargable. Paying them off is very difficult. PSLF or "extreme hardship" may be able to discharge them after 10+ years. if you have a cosigner, they are on the hook just as much as you. I would not recommend that anyone go to a carib medical school if a family member / friend needs to cosign loans.
9. US med schools have increased their class size. Residency spots are also increasing slowly. So far, it hasn't been a problem. It may be that as time goes forward, that IMG's will have further trouble getting even IM and FM spots and the change might happen between the time you matriculate and graduate. But, the opposite might be true also -- spots might grow at a higher rate than students.
So: Going to a Carib school is an uphill process. You need to work harder and be better than your US colleagues to do "equally" well. Carib schools often tout their successes, and ignore the students who never make it to graduation, are only able to get a prelim spot, or not match at all. Yet, at the better carib schools, the majority of students probably succeed (again, difficult to say due to lack of transparency), mainly in the primary care fields. Advertising from these schools (on their websites) doesn't do a great job of balancing these risks and benefits. Threads on SDN tend to tout the negatives, which is probably healthy so that prospective students see the dangers involved.
Assuming that 70% of people who start at SGU don't graduate, let's be 100% honest about the outcomes:
Don't go to SGU, 0% chance of being a doctor. Debt is unchanged.
Go to SGU:
70% chance of matching, great career as physician. All is good (ignoring that you might not get the field you fall in love with)
30% chance of not matching. Now you could be an additional 100K+ in debt, and no way to pay it off, and you can't discharge it in bankruptcy. If you had a cosigner, they are just as responsible. If they actually completed all 4 years and then can't match (worst case scenario), they could easily be 400K in debt.
That's the key issue here. If someone has 200K to blow and they want to try medical school, I think everyone here would say it's their choice. The concern is that everyone going to the carib is certain they won't be the one to fail out, and hence is certain the financial risk is reasonable.
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Several more things specific to the OP's situation:
1. Needing a visa in the US will significantly impact your choices and options. It's a moving target so there's no way to predicts where things will be in 4 years when you'd be applying.
2. Having a visa in the US can limit your ability to return to Canada. This is more of a problem with other countries, but when you travel on a visa there is no guarantee that the border will allow you to cross back into the US. They can revoke your visa and send you back if they want to. I've seen residents with sick family members agonize about whether to try and go see them, knowing that getting back may be a big problem.
3. Financing. In general, the cost of attending these schools is more than Canadian banks will be willing to lend you. If you're independently wealthy, great! If not, many Canadian attendees need a loan cosigner. As I mentioned above, your cosigner is equally responsible for your loan - if you fail out, the bank will come after them and all of their assets. This can be a horrible situation for you, because there's nothing you can do about it.
1. Needing a visa in the US will significantly impact your choices and options. It's a moving target so there's no way to predicts where things will be in 4 years when you'd be applying.
2. Having a visa in the US can limit your ability to return to Canada. This is more of a problem with other countries, but when you travel on a visa there is no guarantee that the border will allow you to cross back into the US. They can revoke your visa and send you back if they want to. I've seen residents with sick family members agonize about whether to try and go see them, knowing that getting back may be a big problem.
3. Financing. In general, the cost of attending these schools is more than Canadian banks will be willing to lend you. If you're independently wealthy, great! If not, many Canadian attendees need a loan cosigner. As I mentioned above, your cosigner is equally responsible for your loan - if you fail out, the bank will come after them and all of their assets. This can be a horrible situation for you, because there's nothing you can do about it.
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There is no longer a way to "crush Step1" but there is still a way that it can crush you.
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And probably soon to be no longer a way to crush step 2 CK since that is going to be pass/fail too it seems
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No incidence of that; only hyperventilated pre-med and preclinical med student speculation.
D
deleted480308
Is it even a 70% chance of going from matriculation to matching? I thought it was closer to 50 last time I looked
