Questions About Navy HPSP/Being a UMO

[king1243]

I am a current applicant who has already been accepted to medical school and am currently interested in a surgical specialty. I started looking into the HPSP as a way to cover some of the more expensive medical schools on my list but came across the UMO program that the Navy has. As a current PADI divemaster candidate, this seemed like a great way to integrate my love of diving (along with some extra training) with medicine and hopefully live in a couple of really cool places. The idea I have right now is to do the HPSP, serve out my commitment to the Navy as a UMO, then hopefully transition over to a civilian residency.

Before I sign anything, however, I want to learn a little more about 1) the day-to-day life of a UMO, 2) how taking 4 years off of the traditional track to serve as a UMO could positively or negatively impact my chances of matching, especially into competitive specialties, and 3) if this idea is totally unrealistic and I should just stick to the non-military track. Any advice/help would be truly appreciated!

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[SirGecko]

I’ll start this by saying that the Navy has a stated goal of transitioning to less intern only GMOs in favor of post residency docs (UMOs being a subcategory of GMO) so what you are asking to do might be harder in a few years. That said a lot of people do it now and who knows what the future will hold.

As for what being a UMO is like, it varies depending on the billet (job) you get. A large part of the job is doing physical exams, waivers and disquals. (A bunch of paperwork) UMOs will be associated with divers, sub squadrons, some special forces jobs, explosive ordinance disposal and the relevant school houses. Some billets will be associated with more diving than others but even in diving heavy billets you will not be doing all that much diving personally. Taking four years off isn’t really that big of a deal from a getting residency standpoint for most people I know. (It is a financial hit and you are four years older for better or worse going through residency, so things like starting a family should be considered)

Since you frame the question as trying to pay for school: joining the military is usually not going to be better in the long run financially speaking.

 

[king1243]

I’ll start this by saying that the Navy has a stated goal of transitioning to less intern only GMOs in favor of post residency docs (UMOs being a subcategory of GMO) so what you are asking to do might be harder in a few years. That said a lot of people do it now and who knows what the future will hold.

As for what being a UMO is like, it varies depending on the billet (job) you get. A large part of the job is doing physical exams, waivers and disquals. (A bunch of paperwork) UMOs will be associated with divers, sub squadrons, some special forces jobs, explosive ordinance disposal and the relevant school houses. Some billets will be associated with more diving than others but even in diving heavy billets you will not be doing all that much diving personally. Taking four years off isn’t really that big of a deal from a getting residency standpoint for most people I know. (It is a financial hit and you are four years older for better or worse going through residency, so things like starting a family should be considered)

Since you frame the question as trying to pay for school: joining the military is usually not going to be better in the long run financially speaking.

Thanks for the response. The reason I started looking into the Navy in the first place was the money but after some research, I was really drawn to working as a UMO and the opportunity to serve. In the end, what will sway me either way is the job description. What would the best/worst case scenario be for billets be?

 

[DeadCactus]

If you want money, go civilian. Civilian pay will outpace the financial benefit of any military "scholarship". If it didn't, they wouldn't bother with a scholarship. They are not running a charity, they are trying to get people locked into the military when they can leverage fear of debt to pay you less than it would cost to compete with the civilian world.

If you want to dive, go civilian. You'll have the money and autonomy to dive in the most beautiful places in the world and pursue any dive training you want while military physicians are doing doing paperwork to get other people permission to dive.

If you want to serve in the military then join the military and understand you're sacrificing money and free time you could have spent pursuing your hobbies.

 

[FlightDocDan]

If you want money, go civilian. Civilian pay will outpace the financial benefit of any military "scholarship". If it didn't, they wouldn't bother with a scholarship. They are not running a charity, they are trying to get people locked into the military when they can leverage fear of debt to pay you less than it would cost to compete with the civilian world.

If you want to dive, go civilian. You'll have the money and autonomy to dive in the most beautiful places in the world and pursue any dive training you want while military physicians are doing doing paperwork to get other people permission to dive.

If you want to serve in the military then join the military and understand you're sacrificing money and free time you could have spent pursuing your hobbies.

haha you make it sounds like military med is total waste of time/money... I do agree nobody should do military purely for the money (unless you do minimum oblig and get out, you may still make net positive over civilian route if you went to expensive private schools), you could get some very unique experience/opportunity you cannot easily get in the civilian side.

A lot will depend on your job for sure... and there will most definitely going to be tons of admin work in the military. But realistically, I doubt you will be traveling all around the world and doing dive excursions right off internship as civilian. It will be few years before you will have the money or time to do all of that you mentioned. In the meantime, UMOs gets to travel all around the world and dive for free... not a bad gig... then get out and finish your residency and catch up on the big $$$ after you had your fun in your young age...

All depend on what you want in your life and how your want to shape your career. Not all bad going military med.

***disclaimer*** I am a Navy FS, not UMO... I get paid to fly cool stuff... (planes, helicopters and something in between!!??)

 

[j4pac]

haha you make it sounds like military med is total waste of time/money... I do agree nobody should do military purely for the money (unless you do minimum oblig and get out, you may still make net positive over civilian route if you went to expensive private schools), you could get some very unique experience/opportunity you cannot easily get in the civilian side.

A lot will depend on your job for sure... and there will most definitely going to be tons of admin work in the military. But realistically, I doubt you will be traveling all around the world and doing dive excursions right off internship as civilian. It will be few years before you will have the money or time to do all of that you mentioned. In the meantime, UMOs gets to travel all around the world and dive for free... not a bad gig... then get out and finish your residency and catch up on the big $$$ after you had your fun in your young age...

All depend on what you want in your life and how your want to shape your career. Not all bad going military med.

***disclaimer*** I am a Navy FS, not UMO... I get paid to fly cool stuff... (planes, helicopters and something in between!!??)

I also loved FS. I wouldn’t trade that experience for all the money in the world. I’m only a few years out in practice…I have some gray hair and balding…big deal. You live once. OP…just know what your getting yourself into. There will be lots of suck in the military. But there will also…depending on your interests…things you’d never do as a civilian doc. If you are willing for forfeit some money and time for the opportunity to serve…then do it…understanding that it will indeed suck at times.

 

[orbitsurgMD]

I am a current applicant who has already been accepted to medical school and am currently interested in a surgical specialty. I started looking into the HPSP as a way to cover some of the more expensive medical schools on my list but came across the UMO program that the Navy has. As a current PADI divemaster candidate, this seemed like a great way to integrate my love of diving (along with some extra training) with medicine and hopefully live in a couple of really cool places. The idea I have right now is to do the HPSP, serve out my commitment to the Navy as a UMO, then hopefully transition over to a civilian residency.

Before I sign anything, however, I want to learn a little more about 1) the day-to-day life of a UMO, 2) how taking 4 years off of the traditional track to serve as a UMO could positively or negatively impact my chances of matching, especially into competitive specialties, and 3) if this idea is totally unrealistic and I should just stick to the non-military track. Any advice/help would be truly appreciated!

Most Navy UMO experience is on dry land or aboard support tender ships that don't travel much. Like flight surgery, you will do some dive environment activity, but that includes compression chamber "dives," done in a ship or a dry land building somewhere. A large part is going to be administrative, routine sick call clinics and routine physical exams. In some billets, you can be assigned the equivalent of ED shifts. You may nominally be assigned to a sub squadron or a SEAL or EOD group, but most of your work will be in a clinic somewhere.

While former GMOs, UMOs and flight surgeons do go on for surgical specialties, you should know that the .mil pathway probably will place you at a disadvantage as an applicant. It isn't the same for specialties where PGY1 is in a transitional or equivalent year. Many posters here have had successful transitions to rads, EM, OccMed, PM&R, path, anesthesia, psychiatry, rad onc, ophtho, and some ENT, all specialties without integrated PGY1 training years. Many surgical programs increasingly expect you to train continuously from PGY1 onward. The military is (disturbingly-so) less committed to providing comprehensive residency opportunities of any kind, and particularly those requiring large busy hospital experiences with high volume clinical acuity, a must for a quality surgical training experience. A UMO assignment removes you by a minimum of one additional calendar year from the rest of the GMO trainees, not to your advantage IMO. You wrote of your interest in a surgical specialty. The Navy really isn't the best pathway to get you there.

 

[DeadCactus]

haha you make it sounds like military med is total waste of time/money... I do agree nobody should do military purely for the money (unless you do minimum oblig and get out, you may still make net positive over civilian route if you went to expensive private schools), you could get some very unique experience/opportunity you cannot easily get in the civilian side.

A lot will depend on your job for sure... and there will most definitely going to be tons of admin work in the military. But realistically, I doubt you will be traveling all around the world and doing dive excursions right off internship as civilian. It will be few years before you will have the money or time to do all of that you mentioned. In the meantime, UMOs gets to travel all around the world and dive for free... not a bad gig... then get out and finish your residency and catch up on the big $$$ after you had your fun in your young age...

All depend on what you want in your life and how your want to shape your career. Not all bad going military med.

***disclaimer*** I am a Navy FS, not UMO... I get paid to fly cool stuff... (planes, helicopters and something in between!!??)

You say travel the world and dive for free. I say lose six-figures in earnings, practice low acuity medicine, and have to ask permission to be more than a few hours from home.

I've stayed in the military, granted reserve component, well beyond my initial obligation. I overall enjoy it. I think it's a great move for the right person. But the the reality is the vast majority of people take a financial loss to enter military medicine and the vast majority of cool opportunities are 5% of an experience that is mostly bureaucracy and administrative medicine in a lifestyle that restricts your access to a lot of opportunities.

If you're joining to satisfy a desire to serve in the military and not having to worry about loans and maybe getting to do some cool stuff are bonuses, great. Joining out of a fear of debt or because or to be spoon fed adventure doesn't seem like a great plan.

 

[FlightDocDan]

You say travel the world and dive for free. I say lose six-figures in earnings, practice low acuity medicine, and have to ask permission to be more than a few hours from home.

I've stayed in the military, granted reserve component, well beyond my initial obligation. I overall enjoy it. I think it's a great move for the right person. But the the reality is the vast majority of people take a financial loss to enter military medicine and the vast majority of cool opportunities are 5% of an experience that is mostly bureaucracy and administrative medicine in a lifestyle that restricts your access to a lot of opportunities.

If you're joining to satisfy a desire to serve in the military and not having to worry about loans and maybe getting to do some cool stuff are bonuses, great. Joining out of a fear of debt or because or to be spoon fed adventure doesn't seem like a great plan.

You won't be losing the six figure in the first few years out of school just to do your minimum obligigation and get out... as I said, mil benefit only works if you have a huge tuition debt with poor resident pay in the first few years. Being debt free and better pay as GMO will put you above glideslope over civilian initially. Get out and do residency after your obligation. You may be few years behind making the big bucks but you will get the unique experience and you MAY still come above glideslope.

However, longer you stay in mil, bigger financial loss like DeadCactus said and that financial glide slope will crossover real quick. I 100% agree with DeadCactus that you should NEVER join military for financial benefit alone regardless of how you plan your financial glideslope. All I'm trying to say is, do it for the experience and unique opportunity, good or bad, that you won't get in the civilian side. At least while you are young and still got plenty of time to make it up if you realize military isn't for you. You never know and you may end up being that small percent with the cool opportunity that will keep you in military for a career despite the financial loss. (I have no regret trading big civilian paycheck and a chance to be a surgeon for my opportunity to fly Naval Aircraft for a career).

 

[Gastrapathy]

The day to day life of a UMO is clinic and more clinic. The cool jobs go to residency trained UMOs.

Read the last post carefully. He was willing to trade away a lifelong surgical career and substantial income for his military experience with “no regrets.” If that’s you, then you might be the rare happy .mil doctor.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I’m pretty pro military. I’ve been in for 10 years, including 7 years of enlisted time that I do not regret at all. My only experience with operational med is working with a destroyer squadron med command, but that def let me see the type of stuff they do.

That said, I completely agree that you have to be willing to sacrifice personal freedoms, potentially significant amounts of income, and mild to moderate amounts of efficiency.

The personal freedoms thing is real and is too much for some people. It is not just a matter of hopping in a plane and flying somewhere for a long weekend. You have to get permission even if it doesn’t interfere with your work schedule. It isn’t a big deal until your leave gets denied for a family wedding or something because of an underway or a command function.

Being any kind of gmo involves pretty low acuity medicine and a lot of admin. At the destroyer squadron we would most be doing admin in the morning and then see 3-4 patients in the afternoon. Hours were great (unless you’re undermanned) and there is plenty of opportunity to do ship visits and short 2-3 week underways. But you will def experience some skill atrophy. The flight surgeons I know (n=10) all loved their FS time, but echo the above.

I was also at a dive locker for a few months that was fairly heavy on dives. The UMO seemed to enjoy his job and would randomly show up at dives. He was an intern trained UMO. But I would not expect to be going to an NSW/NSO command as a UMO unless you have prior experience in that community.

That all said, the idea that it is a rare military physician who enjoys being a military doc is interesting to me. Most of the military physicians I have worked with both operationally and over my clerkship year rotations have acknowledged the frustrations of military medicine while also expressing an overall satisfaction with the job and experience. In fact, I’d say it’s been the rare physician who regrets joining or generally does not like being a mil doc. Now that might just be because all the ones who hate it just get out, but you would think if that were the majority experience that most of the ones in would feel that way. The military is definitely not for everyone and probably isn’t for most people. But I don’t think it’s a rare physician who enjoys mil med.

 

[Gastrapathy]

No one is dumb enough to tell a med student that they aren’t happy. That **** could blow back hard plus it’s just cruel since there’s no escape. Hell, there’s no point in talking like that to residents either. But in a few years, you’ll see that all those happy attendings have fled for greener pastures

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

No one is dumb enough to tell a med student that they aren’t happy. That **** could blow back hard plus it’s just cruel since there’s no escape. Hell, there’s no point in talking like that to residents either. But in a few years, you’ll see that all those happy attendings have fled for greener pastures

Ah yes, the old if other people aren’t sharing my view, they must be lying or fabricating argument. Conveniently irrefutable and lets you just continue chugging along.

 

[Gastrapathy]

Ok. What percentage of your attendings fit one of these three categories:
1. In their initial obligation
2. Finished their obligation so close to 20 that they are effectively obligated
3. The effectively nonclinical O6 who sees a half day of clinic a week and can’t practice in a real hospital anymore.

It’s a job that nearly everyone quits as soon as they can. There has been 100% turnover in 5 years in my specialty at Portsmouth and San Diego. That is irrefutable.

the point of my post was to say you need to look at their actions rather than their words. Look at the number of trainees versus the total number of non-trainee physicians. If people were remotely satisfied, they wouldn’t have to bring in 300 doctors per year.