Questionable logging of resident cases

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

heybrother

28232
10+ Year Member
Joined
Oct 17, 2011
Messages
2,762
Reaction score
6,278
We started talking about this in another thread and I'm curious to hear what people have seen. I've attempted to include some relevant text from CPME 320 below.

What's interesting to me is my program had a resident transfer in from another program. They told me that at their original program if multiple residents scrubbed a case the attending would dole out each procedure of the case so that everyone received a first assist for something. I hadn't read CPME 320 at the time and thought it was ridiculous / could lead to problematic logging. When we assigned cases whoever got the case got all the component procedures ie. One 1st assist per case. That said - reading Part D below - dividing procedures seems to be kosher. I can't help but think that if mislogging is routinely happening that the liberal rationale in Part D is a part of it.


1681606251086.png

1681606277730.png

1681606339352.png

1681606532584.png

1681606623435.png

1681606862097.png

Members don't see this ad.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
It's not mislogging if the rules say it's allowed, shady as it may seem
 
It's not mislogging if the rules say it's allowed, shady as it may seem
The example given in another thread was a cheilectomy in which two residents both receive a first assist by claiming that there was both a procedure on the hallux and on the metatarsal head. The current part D rules could potentially facilitate fragmentation. Obviously this should be caught by the PD. Are shenanigans going on? I don't know - perhaps this thread will burn out very quickly. Perhaps people will have stories to share.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
The example given in another thread was a cheilectomy in which two residents both receive a first assist by claiming that there was both a procedure on the hallux and on the metatarsal head. The current part D rules could potentially facilitate fragmentation. Obviously this should be caught by the PD. Are shenanigans going on? I don't know - perhaps this thread will burn out very quickly. Perhaps people will have stories to share.

I don’t see the problem with multiple residents logging the CPT code they were the first assistant on. If one resident is doing the gastroc, and another a calcaneal osteotomy, and a 3rd is going to do an osteotomy of a tarsal bone other than the calcaneus…why would they not get credit for the procedure they did?

I understand there is probably an argument from a, “is that the best way to prepare residents to correct a flatfoot in the OR on their own after they graduate?” But case logs in residency are only about demonstrating experience with individual procedures. The only shady way to log them is to find ways to have residents log the same CPT code twice (aka the cheilectomy example).
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
This is tale as old as time.

Different residents as first assist on truly different procedures is technically allowed, but it'd never happen at most quality programs since you just want efficiency in the OR. It's a hallmark of subpar programs if a Gastroc/Evans/FDL or TAL/Dwyer or whatever is so uncommon that they want to split it up between residents. In my eyes, it's basically the whole case and primary teaching for either resident A or B (hopefully just one of them for most fore/mid and easy RRA stuff!)... not switch midway through. I would never tolerate pgy2 does lapidus and weil 2nd, they they want it to be that pgy1 does hammertoes 2-4th, student does 5th digit. That's just plain dumb and needlessly prolongs the OR time. The time will come for the others... no scarcity mentality needed. It's the first assist's case (and dictation!), and if they struggle or seem unprepared or defer, I will just do it from there out.

There are actually pubs about PRR proper logging, and 'common mistakes,' but they are to give the appearance of oversight and integrity. When most of the people on CPME are the same people opening new school$ and needing as many residency spot$ as we can have$, do you expect any residencies to reduce/close? :)

This stuff goes on every day at some programs (trying to squeeze more numbers and fragment procedures)... not a lot can really be done about it.
The biggest garbage bags are the breaking ulcerated Charcot triple or pantalar into three or four RRA fusions (one for each resident), maybe add TAL and other nonsense... and the pt gets their BKA the next month anyways. Joy.
Other favorites include Austin-Akin as bunion with met osteotomy (for one resident) and bunion with phalanx osteotomy (for the other). Doppelganger first ray procedure.
I&D and amp on the same case is as common as they day is long (no idea what program has trouble getting those numbers, but just embellishing overall graduation count I suppose?)
There is bi/trimalls into two fx repairs (one resident tib, one fib), de/re Achilles is a rupture repair for one and tarsal exostectomy for another... sky's the limit.

The biggest nonsense is the "first assist" and "getting numbers" for RRA with ortho where the resident is retractor city and (maybe) helps splint at the end. That is what allows many programs to get "RRA" for doing the job of a traveler scrub tech and with little or no teaching from the "attending," and that's sad.

In the end, though, follow the money. The people in charge of this (deans, directors, professors, etc) are largely the people who profit from more schools/students/residents/DPMs. It's a conflict of interests through and through. There are some people who have an open mind and try to be objective, but they're likely overshadowed or politicked into "the right choice." I have known a few people who volunteer for site visits of programs; any concerns or recommendations for program improvement typically fall on deaf ears. Perhaps a few probations or corrections might be considered in times of a residency spots surplus, but in a shortage or potential one (new schools)? Fuggeddaboudit. Follow the money.

Maybe this upcoming pod school enrollment crisis will be a wake-up call to close/reduce/consolidate the many suspect "PMSR/RRA" programs, but I sure wouldn't hold your breath.

...If any pre-match students happen to read this thread, this is a very good thing to look for on clerkships... ask to see logs or ask residents to show you how they log. The BS logging after a case by a resident is a sizable red flag of a program you probably don't want. Residents reluctant/refusing to show logs is another potential problem. Resident with robust logs and actual surgery schedule anemic to the point of them being in different universes is one of those red flags that covers a whole bball court at a halftime show.

american flag dog GIF by Butler University
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Breaking up resident cases to log is the biggest load of crap ever. What a complete joke. I only occasionally double scrubbed TARs or unusual cases and in these cases we just agreed for one person to be 2nd assist.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
if a fellow is doing a case a resident shouldn't log it as a first assist. also, TAL's shouldn't count as rearfoot numbers. just my opinion.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Top