Question about the debt?

[el_duderino]

When I present my article, I'm going to ask the moderators to have you guys verify your admission and you have Skip verify his "doctor" status. If you can't do that, then I don't think you should be arguing with someone who is willing to do that. I will be presenting my attendance records to the chief editor with my article to show that I actually attended medical school, my WITHDRAWAL status, and where I attended so that it at least backs up my claims. The more I'm reading your responses and some others, the more I'm starting to believe that you are "plants" from some of these schools.

You're willing to verify that you dropped out of Caribbean medical school? Bold move!

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[aformerstudent]

You're willing to verify that you dropped out of Caribbean medical school? Bold move!

Withdrawal my friend Voluntary Withdrawal.

I can tell you're not a med student lol

 

[edgerock24]

Withdrawal my friend Voluntary Withdrawal.

I can tell you're not a med student lol

Apologies for not knowing your backstory, but did you transfer to another Caribbean med school? Or in the process of doing so, etc

 

[aformerstudent]

Apologies for not knowing your backstory, but did you transfer to another Caribbean med school? Or in the process of doing so, etc

It's on hold right now man. Was planning on redoing coursework and heading to SGU to restart but that plan is on hold right now. I'm a non-trad so age is not on my side either. There are two schools that said they will take my transfer credit but I'm not attempting that route as that is a guaranteed dead end. I have some friends from SGU who are in third and fourth year now so I'm just following their progress. They are very good students with no red flags so things have been going well for them so far and that's not exactly my story. I'll wait to see what their final assessment is. Most probably I will not be pursuing this further but I'll decide that next year officially.

 

[shouldigomd]

I use my status as leverage because you want to group carib schools together which isn't an accurate depiction. I have experience at SGU and you have experience at MUA. Different situations which you just proved by mentioning this exam you must take at MUA. Sounds like a red flag to me. We didn't have that at SGU. I am not talking about MUA like I know how things are there.

I will address the main purpose of all your posts (at least for right now) and the "topic" of this article you will write...

SGU is screwing people by lowering admission standards??? Really??? Admissions standards are going up each year at SGU and they make an effort to accept the best they can to have the best match record. I don't think you can find a single med student on day 1 of term 1 at SGU who thinks they are automatically a doctor. Nor would you find that at a US school. It is common knowledge that you must work hard, that med school is hard, etc etc. Putting that to practice is a different story. It is also common knowledge that carib is not an ideal situation. If you show up expecting things to automatically happen for you than failure will come and shouldn't be a surprise.

Nobody is holding a gun to anyone's head or offering unfair promises at SGU / Ross. It is your choice and plenty resources are available to speak to graduates to get first hand experience. Nobody is lying or cheating you. A fair opportunity is given to students who don't meet US standards for whatever reason. A second chance for those willing to do what it takes. Logic would tell you that not everyone will be able to change what led them to struggle in the first place.... thus high attrition. But that attrition isn't the "vast majority" like you keep saying. In my experience it was around 33%. Sure that is a decent amount of attrition but to say 2/3 of people "not worthy" of med school at all make it through ... pretty good odds. No clue what it is like at MUA but must have been horrible given how you think.

There are many things that need to be evaluated before going to the Caribbean. When going to a well established one with a good track record most of those things are internal.

You think you have an idea of who will / wont make it through the caribbean? The best predictor of future outcomes are past performances so goes to say the best MCAT / highest GPAs will likely do the best but that isn't your choice to make. People choose to pay for the opportunity to be a doctor. I paid for it as a failing college student without a single med school interview. Now im at my #1 residency spot treating Afibs with RVRs up the wazoo for some reason on this night shift.

 

[aformerstudent]

I use my status as leverage because you want to group carib schools together which isn't an accurate depiction. I have experience at SGU and you have experience at MUA. Different situations which you just proved by mentioning this exam you must take at MUA. Sounds like a red flag to me. We didn't have that at SGU. I am not talking about MUA like I know how things are there.

I will address the main purpose of all your posts (at least for right now) and the "topic" of this article you will write...

SGU is screwing people by lowering admission standards??? Really??? Admissions standards are going up each year at SGU and they make an effort to accept the best they can to have the best match record. I don't think you can find a single med student on day 1 of term 1 at SGU who thinks they are automatically a doctor. Nor would you find that at a US school. It is common knowledge that you must work hard, that med school is hard, etc etc. Putting that to practice is a different story. It is also common knowledge that carib is not an ideal situation. If you show up expecting things to automatically happen for you than failure will come and shouldn't be a surprise.

Nobody is holding a gun to anyone's head or offering unfair promises at SGU / Ross. It is your choice and plenty resources are available to speak to graduates to get first hand experience. Nobody is lying or cheating you. A fair opportunity is given to students who don't meet US standards for whatever reason. A second chance for those willing to do what it takes. Logic would tell you that not everyone will be able to change what led them to struggle in the first place.... thus high attrition. But that attrition isn't the "vast majority" like you keep saying. In my experience it was around 33%. Sure that is a decent amount of attrition but to say 2/3 of people "not worthy" of med school at all make it through ... pretty good odds. No clue what it is like at MUA but must have been horrible given how you think.

There are many things that need to be evaluated before going to the Caribbean. When going to a well established one with a good track record most of those things are internal.

You think you have an idea of who will / wont make it through the caribbean? The best predictor of future outcomes are past performances so goes to say the best MCAT / highest GPAs will likely do the best but that isn't your choice to make. People choose to pay for the opportunity to be a doctor. I paid for it as a failing college student without a single med school interview. Now im at my #1 residency spot treating Afibs with RVRs up the wazoo for some reason on this night shift.

I'll reiterate this once more. My argument is not targeting every single person who is applying to a Caribbean school and telling them "their career is over" or some crap like that. (BTW, I wonder what happened to that guy?) You went to SGU and you'd be surprised but I know something about that school too and we'll leave it at that. It's true that SGU has higher admissions standards. We have SGU rejects at MUA. But don't deceive these people and tell them that SGU is only taking the best and brightest of the US reject crowd. There are people at SGU with sub 3.0 GPA's and/or sub-25/sub-500 MCAT scores. That is not this --->

A fair opportunity is given to students who don't meet US standards for whatever reason

One of those "friends" of mine that is finishing up fourth year interviewed, was wait-listed, and ultimately rejected at his state school. Instead of waiting, he went to SGU. It's a smart move for him because he saved a year and he easily made it through. THAT IS NOT every student that is coming in...not even close. I'm not speaking to someone like him. I'm speaking to the guy that goes to an SGU open-house, see's the nice scenery, hears all the flowery good news, and signs up with his 3.0 and 491 MCAT. That dude is in way over his head and will most probably be a casualty because he put his trust in a school that will drop him like nobody's business if he can't keep up. And be honest, you probably won't keep up with a 3.0 and 491. There's plenty of guys and girls like that at SGU I'm sure and there were plenty at MUA. Some put up a fight and get through a few terms but fall somewhere along the way to graduation.

The best predictor of future outcomes are past performances so goes to say the best MCAT / highest GPAs will likely do the best but that isn't your choice to make.

<--This is not true man. To you it may be true and that's fine. The other guy in third year has a sub 3.0 undergrad GPA and a 21 MCAT. How is that guy in third year according to your theory? Really explain that to me. Also, how does a straight A student fail a course at MUA? This is what I'm talking about. You can't predict anything with the Caribbean, it's a giant risk. That's why I'm not committing to anything just yet, I'm not that stupid to make the same mistake twice.

 

[Shinken]

If it's nonsense, why did you read through it lol?

I don't read through it at all, I just skim briefly, or I just read the highlights from other posters that quote you.

It's nonsense but it's entertaining nonsense (and I'm not saying your posts are nonsense, I'm saying three pages of arguing whether SGU is 400k or 300k or 200k is nonsense).

 

[Skip Intro]

You remind me of one of my current (and very green) residents, aforemermedstudent. She mistakenly believes that every new thing she learns is also new to the rest of us, and often tries to instruct seasoned people about this "new concept" she just figured out. As if we are all at the same limits of her ignorance. It's both endearing and simultaneously annoying.

Many of us have been here 10+ years. As of late, I don't really bother with your posts anymore. That's because you remind me of any of a long list of matriculants who have struggled in the Caribbean and then have come to this (and other) forums to claim any of the various iterations of excuses and/or "I've figured this out" or "they're only trying to screw you" or "this is what you need to do" message, when the information you're presenting is either (1) not new or changed, (2) nothing more than your opinion, or (3) has already been hashed-out a hundreds of times before.

The only thing I worry about is that someone may stumble in here thinking your some kind of authority. I'm glad that, as of late, you have expounded upon your own knowledge limitations in what I can only describe as a prolixity of ignorance. Very few people (I'd imagine) are doing anything but skimming your posts at this point. Nonetheless, the few who are engaging you clearly are trying to point out the faults of your logic and your misunderstanding (including such things as, for example, your inability to grasp the basic concept of what constitutes an "anecdote").

So, carry on. Or, as the old expression goes, the more rope you give someone, the more they have to hang you with. If nothing else, you're a good show.

-Skip

 

[aformerstudent]

I don't read through it at all, I just skim briefly, or I just read the highlights from other posters that quote you.

It's nonsense but it's entertaining nonsense (and I'm not saying your posts are nonsense, I'm saying three pages of arguing whether SGU is 400k or 300k or 200k is nonsense).

Well, thank you for saying that my posts are not nonsense. And I agree that arguing over the debt load is crazy but some people are just never satisfied. I think I even said that if the debt load did not quite come out to 400K by graduation, it sure as hell will be well over 400K by the end of residency. Even still, more arguing.

 

[aformerstudent]

You remind me of one of my current (and very green) residents, aforemermedstudent. She mistakenly believes that every new thing she learns is also new to the rest of us, and often tries to instruct seasoned people about this "new concept" she just figured out. As if we are all at the same limits of her ignorance. It's both endearing and simultaneously annoying.

Many of us have been here 10+ years. As of late, I don't really bother with your posts anymore. That's because you remind me of any of a long list of matriculants who have struggled in the Caribbean and then have come to this (and other) forums to claim any of the various iterations of excuses and/or "I've figured this out" or "they're only trying to screw you" or "this is what you need to do" message, when the information you're presenting is either (1) not new or changed, (2) nothing more than your opinion, or (3) has already been hashed-out a hundreds of times before.

The only thing I worry about is that someone may stumble in here thinking your some kind of authority. I'm glad that, as of late, you have expounded upon your own knowledge limitations in what I can only describe as a prolixity of ignorance. Very few people (I'd imagine) are doing anything but skimming your posts at this point. Nonetheless, the few who are engaging you clearly are trying to point out the faults of your logic and your misunderstanding (including such things as, for example, your inability to grasp the basic concept of what constitutes an "anecdote").

So, carry on. Or, as the old expression goes, the more rope you give someone, the more they have to hang you with. If nothing else, you're a good show.

-Skip

Skip, the moderators on this site were about to ban you last week for insulting me lol. You talk pretty big for someone who they apparently see as disposable.

You do realize people PM for advice right? They're not as dumb as you think.

 

[el_duderino]

Skip, the moderators on this site were about to ban you last week for insulting me lol. You talk pretty big for someone who they apparently see as disposable.

You do realize people PM for advice right? They're not as dumb as you think.

You do present a pretty good cautionary tale, I suppose.

 

[Skip Intro]

Skip, the moderators on this site were about to ban you last week for insulting me lol. You talk pretty big for someone who they apparently see as disposable.

Do me a favor: Read that sentence you wrote out loud to yourself while looking into a mirror. I hope you can then begin to see just how ridiculous you sound to the rest of us.

You do realize people PM for advice right? They're not as dumb as you think.

That actually troubles me deeply, but not as much as the thought that you might somehow, someday eventually succeed and get a shot at treating patients independently (i.e., someone who doesn't know the difference between data and anecdotes). But, usually the system ultimately takes care of people like you, so I'm not too worried.

-Skip

 

[aformerstudent]

You do present a pretty good cautionary tale, I suppose.

Did you expect any less from me?

I will be taking a brief hiatus to work on my article. You can bicker amongst yourselves in my absence.

 

[el_duderino]

Did you expect any less from me?

I will be taking a brief hiatus to work on my article. You can bicker amongst yourselves in my absence.

I'm surprised you didn't say that you're withdrawing from SDN.

 

[aformerstudent]

I'm surprised you didn't say that you're withdrawing from SDN.

You've got a little comedy in you there man. Well now you know what your plan "B" is.

 

[aformerstudent]

but not as much as the thought that you might somehow, someday eventually succeed and get a shot at treating patients

Thank you for those kind words.

 

[shouldigomd]

So first you say that your article is because you know the people likely to fail in the Caribbean. Followed by "you cant predict anything in the Caribbean." You continue to contradict yourself. You can't possibly predict who will succeed and who will fail. You can only look at past predictors as the only tangible evidence. I failed and barely got into SGU. Had failed out of college with sub 2.0. By the grace of my interview I was given a chance at the CFP program. I have >90th percentile board scores. Nobody could predict that. SGU provides and opportunity and people can take it or leave it. It seems like your article will go something like this... med school is hard. So don't expect everything to be handed to you when your feet touch the island sand.

As for your friend who was wait listed. I think that is a silly move on his part. He was borderline and instead of spending a year to buff his application he went carib and seriously undermined his residency options ... unless he wanted to be FP, psych, or hospitalist than perhaps I can see some reasoning.

Sure not every SGU student is the grain of sand right under the threshold of SGU acceptance. Just like not every harvard student is the absolute best of the best. Admissions does look at other factors here and there. Diversity is a thing too...

 

[aformerstudent]

So first you say that your article is because you know the people likely to fail in the Caribbean. Followed by "you cant predict anything in the Caribbean." You continue to contradict yourself. You can't possibly predict who will succeed and who will fail. You can only look at past predictors as the only tangible evidence. I failed and barely got into SGU. Had failed out of college with sub 2.0. By the grace of my interview I was given a chance at the CFP program. I have >90th percentile board scores. Nobody could predict that. SGU provides and opportunity and people can take it or leave it. It seems like your article will go something like this... med school is hard. So don't expect everything to be handed to you when your feet touch the island sand.

As for your friend who was wait listed. I think that is a silly move on his part. He was borderline and instead of spending a year to buff his application he went carib and seriously undermined his residency options ... unless he wanted to be FP, psych, or hospitalist than perhaps I can see some reasoning.

Sure not every SGU student is the grain of sand right under the threshold of SGU acceptance. Just like not every harvard student is the absolute best of the best. Admissions does look at other factors here and there. Diversity is a thing too...

I'm currently on hiatus but I will respond to your post.

LIKELY is a complicated word because the word "likely" is tied in with the idea of risk. As mentioned previously, the student with a 3.0 and 491 is at a high risk for failure. I can't say that they will LIKELY fail but they are certainly taking a huge risk and the likelihood that they will fail is certainly greater than them succeeding unless something dramatic happens because you can't end up with straight C's and a 192 STEP score in the end. Nobody can tell you where that student will end up but unless they change something as soon as they step foot on the island, they are headed for some trouble.

As far as predicting, there are some ways to predict success and I thought I had mentioned that rather clearly in the previous post. My friend interviewed and was ultimately rejected from a US school. Mind you he had the numbers but he's an admitted introvert. He's does not have the dynamic personality as I've seen of students at US med schools. My understanding was that he also had very little clinical experience even though his father is a doctor. Anyway, he scored between 230 and 240 on both STEP 1 and 2 and I won't list his numbers but his STEP1 was higher. Got his first interview one week after STEP 2 scores came out and was already verbally offered another IM spot in another program by a director during rotations. He's interested in IM and then specializing in HEM/ONC perhaps. I also questioned his decision but he said the gap year would be a waste for him. Essentially he walked into SGU with some serious swag as he knew he was better than that program. Someone like him WILL SUCCEED and you can even put money on that if you wish. He's got the academic background to make it through that type of hell and to adjust to whatever they throw at him. Without listing his grades, he was well above the 82 that I recommend students maintain. That however is not the profile of your typical SGU student. This guy was deficient in the soft skills not the hard skills so-to-speak. I'm sure as a fourth year, he has more than made up for that deficiency.

As far as this -->

It seems like your article will go something like this... med school is hard. So don't expect everything to be handed to you when your feet touch the island sand.

There is a blog by a girl named Tameer and I think her blog follows your description.

I think she makes some good points but her failure was a result of her not being ready for the program and not giving 100%. I think she admits it too. I'm not coming from that point-of-view. My article will be a little more in depth than that. It's not going to tell people not to go the Caribbean like she does. I mean I'm not really saying that am I. It will be an article which will clearly define the intended audience and then will be written in a way for the prospective student to ask some SERIOUS questions regarding why they want to make this decision and if this is the right decision for them. I will encourage students with strong stats to reconsider applying to a US program and I will encourage students with very poor stats to seriously reconsider the decision to study medicine. Having said all of that, and the reader still wants to apply, I will then describe how my experience on the island differed from what I was told before I made it onto the island. All the things essentially that the open-houses, webinars, and orientations somehow fail to bring up.

Like I said before, we have basic sciences and clinical medicine. I don't like calling Caribbean medical schools medical schools for the first two years at least. I just like to call them basic sciences. It's classroom-oriented work with a sprinkling of some watered-down clinical medicine. Real clinical medicine with real patients comes AFTER the basic sciences part is successfully completed. I think any Caribbean medical student should be proud to say that they are a "medical student" once they are in clinicals. Tell me, how did you look at those term 1 students when you were a term 5? I know you didn't see them as equals.

I believe that GPA and MCAT scores are more relevant to the basic sciences not STEP 1. I don't believe there is any correlation in the sense that a certain GPA and MCAT score will predict how you handle medical school courses but I do believe GPA and MCAT can demonstrate how hard you are willing to work. In that sense, yeah, maybe there is a correlation with basic sciences performance since we have nothing else to go by with regards to academics. Regarding STEP1, basic sciences is a glorified STEP1 review course that encompasses 20 months -2 years; that's essentially all it is. Any prep you will need for STEP1 will occur during this time. It would be preposterous to assume that your undergrad lol would prepare you for the USMLE. If you're undergrad could prepare you for the USMLE then basic sciences should theoretically not have grades, it should just be one big, giant relaxed seminar. But that's not the case right, so no medical school has truly 100% confidence in your undergraduate academic profile. Seriously, think of it like that. Might as well call it SGU STEP1 PREP or MUA STEP1 PREP during your time on the island because that's what it is. It ain't med school in the literal sense. The clinical stuff is just there for show to tease you a bit.

So in summary, if you're coming in with that 3.0 and 491, SGU will gladly tell you that you can do it but I'll be there to remind them that it's a little more complicated than that. But again, nothing can be predicted so it all comes down to how much are you willing to risk. My friend is a zero-risk candidate, some people are low-risk, and the rest are high-risk. My guess is that most people at all these schools collectively fall under high-risk. What's even scarier is people who apply and are accepted to no-name schools with numbers much lower than that. I'd argue that there is an ethical problem with the school at that point.

 

[Skip Intro]

I'm currently on hiatus but I will respond to your post. <snip>

Oh, brother... another concept we need to add to the list of things you don't comprehend (res ipsa loquitur).

... SGU will gladly tell you that you can do it but I'll be there to remind them that it's a little more complicated than that.

What is most entertaining is how you hubristically state this as if people here have not been saying such things for, in my case, the past 15+ years. It's like you're on your own stream-of-consciousness journey of discovery that, for some painful reason, you feel the need to share with all of us. Which is okay. But for the fact that a lot of what you say is just quite simply wrong.

But, carry on. This should be rich.

-Skip