Question about the debt?

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cometx3

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One thing I'm confused about the Caribbean is that people on here keep saying that you risk being 400k in loans. Wouldn't that only apply to the 10% of people who don't match that make it through? From what I'm gathering on here is that most people drop out in the preclinical years, and the ones that don't match are the ones that struggled their way through the preclinical years so aren't you only really risking a term in loans if you drop out, maybe two? I feel like an easy solution to this would be to drop out in term one if you struggle. Or am I missing something?

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That would be a very reasonable solution. But people who struggle early on may convince themselves that they will do better the next term. There's always an excuse. And then once you're 1/2 way through, you figure it's better to just continue ahead and hope for the best.
 
One thing I'm confused about the Caribbean is that people on here keep saying that you risk being 400k in loans. Wouldn't that only apply to the 10% of people who don't match that make it through? From what I'm gathering on here is that most people drop out in the preclinical years, and the ones that don't match are the ones that struggled their way through the preclinical years so aren't you only really risking a term in loans if you drop out, maybe two? I feel like an easy solution to this would be to drop out in term one if you struggle. Or am I missing something?

You're not missing anything.

Most failures/decels occur early in the pre-clinical years (i.e., before MS3, MS4 clerkships). You will still have non-dischargeable debt if you fail out in that timeframe. But, it is hardly the full four-year tuition level.

And, $400K? If you spend that much in the Caribbean you are doing something really, really wrong.

-Skip
 
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I'll be the voice of reason YET AGAIN.

Here's the game plan with the Caribbean as it relates to debt.

1. Go there if you wish. If you fail the first term, cut your losses and leave immediately because you will fail elsewhere. Seriously, anatomy, histo, biochem, or whatever they teach you first term is easy compared to the path, physio, pharm, and integration you will get in later terms. If you can't memorize, you will never integrate.

2. The SGU tuition and living expenses easily will exceed 400K today. Every Caribbean med school is jacking up their tuition. Pretty soon, the five or six established schools will not be affordable for the average person.

3. Decels/repeats or whatever can happen at any time. At my school, most people get weeded out in the first two terms but a handful have to repeat the third, fourth, and fifth term. Pretty much the longer you stay in the program and fail out, the worse it is for you.

4. I've seen C students get out of the Caribbean and I've seen A students fail. It is a path I would only recommend anyone go down after A LOT of research and self-reflection.
 
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I'll be the voice of reason YET AGAIN.

Here's the game plan with the Caribbean as it relates to debt.

1. Go there if you wish. If you fail the first term, cut your losses and leave immediately because you will fail elsewhere. Seriously, anatomy, histo, biochem, or whatever they teach you first term is easy compared to the path, physio, pharm, and integration you will get in later terms. If you can't memorize, you will never integrate.

2. The SGU tuition and living expenses easily will exceed 400K today. Every Caribbean med school is jacking up their tuition. Pretty soon, the five or six established schools will not be affordable for the average person.

3. Decels/repeats or whatever can happen at any time. At my school, most people get weeded out in the first two terms but a handful have to repeat the third, fourth, and fifth term. Pretty much the longer you stay in the program and fail out, the worse it is for you.

4. I've seen C students get out of the Caribbean and I've seen A students fail. It is a path I would only recommend anyone go down after A LOT of research and self-reflection.

Some crazy info here lol. Ill pick at the most objective... just go to the SGU / Ross website for tuition costs. SGU is under 300K so not sure where your numbers are coming from. I owe 260K.
 
Some crazy info here lol. Ill pick at the most objective... just go to the SGU / Ross website for tuition costs. SGU is under 300K so not sure where your numbers are coming from. I owe 260K.


SGU, as of today, with room and board for four years till graduation will exceed 400K easily even if you finish on time. The website is quoting you tuition only. In year three and four, if you are not living close to home, you are paying for all those expenses through loans. My friends down there who currently started year three already are up to 175K after five terms on the island. You can ask administration and verify that information.
 
SGU, as of today, with room and board for four years till graduation will exceed 400K easily even if you finish on time. The website is quoting you tuition only. In year three and four, if you are not living close to home, you are paying for all those expenses through loans. My friends down there who currently started year three already are up to 175K after five terms on the island. You can ask administration and verify that information.

No need to verify anything as the tuition and the housing expenses (for years 1/2) are clear on the website. Not to mention I went to SGU and just graduated so I know how much it costs... They didn't increase tuition by 100K since I was there.

4 year Tuition + island room/board (years 1/2) will cost you around 260K. That leaves room / board for years 3/4. If you can easily spend 150K on living in 2 years ... perhaps a reality check is in order. We can leave food/misc expenses out as that isn't unique to SGU and will be paid regardless of where you go and is not included in base tuition at US schools.

Also I don't understand the argument you are making. Saying that SGU is expensive by using "non tuition" fees. Compare the base tuition of SGU and US schools to assess that. Whether at SGU or Cornell you are going to have to pay room/board/food/travel/etc separately. Assuming you live with your parents and not paying anything to say SGU is $$ ... doesn't make much sense.
 
SGU room + housing + expenses + fees related to medical school for the average individual for 10 terms who are not living at home will reach $400K by graduation; that's the hidden cost. You are only including the bare cost and that applies to almost nobody. I have friends there right now who finished term five with 175K in loans on some type of scholarship too. Years 3 and 4 are more expensive than 1 and 2 so they are going to hit 400K by the time they graduate. I will let them know that @shouldigomd went there for a lot less though. We have SGU third year IM residents who are saying they are 500K in debt already. So 300, 400, 500, or whatever, it'll get up there before you know it.

To answer your question, where does the "non-tuition" fee money come from? That's all a part of the cost of going down the SGU or any Caribbean school route.
 
SGU room + housing + expenses + fees related to medical school for the average individual for 10 terms who are not living at home will reach $400K by graduation; that's the hidden cost.

TO ANYONE STUMBLING IN HERE AND READING THESE POSTS UNAWARE OF THE HISTORY, I ADVISE YOU TO IGNORE THIS POSTER. HE HAS LITTLE TO NO CLUE WHAT HE IS TALKING ABOUT.

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TO ANYONE STUMBLING IN HERE AND READING THESE POSTS UNAWARE OF THE HISTORY, I ADVISE YOU TO IGNORE THIS POSTER. HE HAS LITTLE TO NO CLUE WHAT HE IS TALKING ABOUT.

-Skip

Says the guy who went to a Caribbean school when dinosaurs still roamed the earth and diplomas were handed out like raffle tickets.

I keep telling him things have changed but he just won't listen.:shrug:
 
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Medical School Tuition – Leading Education. Competitive Costs. | St. George’s University

I'm with you about some of the other things that have been said around here but actual tuition is already pushing $275k......and that's before buying a book, eating, or paying rent

I'm disappointed you feel that way but at least you give credit where credit is due. I'm not pulling this stuff out of my arse. I do have friends at these schools still so I am going to be getting information that most of you will not have access too.
 
To add to this post, if you take that debt with you to an IM residency, you will easily be over 500K by the time you start making any real money. I was given advice many years ago that medicine was not worth it if had no intentions of specializing. That was in the early 2000's.

Most of these Carib grads these days are ending up in primary care. It's one thing to end up in primary care with absolutely no debt and quite another with a second mortgage. And I don't know what I'm talking about? lol.
 
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Also, keep in mind there are two fee structures you are dealing with. There is actual tuition fees, and then there is cost of attendance which is not what they put down in those charts. Cost of attendance is usually located somewhere else on the website.

For example, MUA tuition was $11500 when I was there. They put together a nice little chart with that number x10 semesters and came up with roughly $115K as the cost to become a doc at MUA. The cost of attendance is almost double that. My semester loans were 20K because that covered tuition, housing, and any other expenses on the island. Sure you could refuse the full 20K but you'd starve to death. You'd exhaust your ketone bodies lol....see I learned something.
 
Medical School Tuition – Leading Education. Competitive Costs. | St. George’s University

I'm with you about some of the other things that have been said around here but actual tuition is already pushing $275k......and that's before buying a book, eating, or paying rent

Medical School Tuition – Leading Education. Competitive Costs. | St. George’s University

Total expected tuition/Fees/Books: $283,434.00

That still leaves $116,566 left over after 4 years to get to $400K. Or, a calculated $29,141.50/yr to live on.

That's not pre-tax. That's not post-tax. That is actual dollars you guys are talking about, which is equivalent to after-taxes someone making about $36,500/yr in income while you're in school!

A $1000/month apartment rental averaged over those 4 years still leaves you over $19,000/yr for all other expenses to bring you to $400k, or $1,583/month for all other expenses.

I don't know how you guys intend to live - most of you who are in your early twenties, single, and still have family to support you - but, I will say this again: if you are racking-up over $400K in debt in this process, you are doing something wrong.

I did all my rotations in NYC where I rented a solo one-bedroom apartment, graduated on-time, and did even remotely come close to spending $29k/yr in living expenses. In fact, I barely spend more than twice that now in total annual living expenses! Hell, entire families live on that (and less). And, no, there weren't gas lamps and, yes, we even actually washed our hands between patients way back then. It was not in the 1500's; it was in the 21st century.

So, I would suggest that, yes, if think you're going to live "high on the hog" while you are pursuing this pathway, you might want to rethink your decision. If you go to St. George's, you will likely rack-up over $325k in debt depending on how you manage yourself and what kind of help you have. But, that's why there are loans. And, if you pass Step 1, the odds are you will make it through the whole program.

If you somehow make it all the way through Term 5 and then you DON'T (or can't) pass Step 1, you're going to be about $130k in non-dischargeable debt (plus whatever living expense you blew).

Better figure that out well before then. And budget yourself.

-Skip
 
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I tried to explain the phenomenon of "cost of attendance" but some people don't care to listen. Most all the students take the max loan that the financial aid office will let you take out and that will set you back 400K in four years. If you want to pinch pennies and eat noodles and don't do anything on the island and share a room with five other people, then yeah maybe the cost might not be exactly 400K but are you going to do that? The average person is taking out 400K in loans for four years. That's the bottom line.

Skip, what year did you do all of that? It's 2017 today.
 
Who cares whether it's $250k or $400k. Bottom line: Caribbean med school is just as expensive, if not more expensive, than US med schools, and students face more hurdles to match. Getting caught up in the exact amount of tuition is missing the forest for the trees.
 
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No need to verify anything as the tuition and the housing expenses (for years 1/2) are clear on the website. Not to mention I went to SGU and just graduated so I know how much it costs... They didn't increase tuition by 100K since I was there.

4 year Tuition + island room/board (years 1/2) will cost you around 260K. That leaves room / board for years 3/4. If you can easily spend 150K on living in 2 years ... perhaps a reality check is in order. We can leave food/misc expenses out as that isn't unique to SGU and will be paid regardless of where you go and is not included in base tuition at US schools.

Also I don't understand the argument you are making. Saying that SGU is expensive by using "non tuition" fees. Compare the base tuition of SGU and US schools to assess that. Whether at SGU or Cornell you are going to have to pay room/board/food/travel/etc separately. Assuming you live with your parents and not paying anything to say SGU is $$ ... doesn't make much sense.

Did you factor interest on that? Check out the rates on the loans, then recalculate. Also add in living and travel expenses for your rotations and interviews, then calculate interest on those as well.

You'll hit $400k.
 
Who cares whether it's $250k or $400k. Bottom line: Caribbean med school is just as expensive, if not more expensive, than US med schools, and students face more hurdles to match. Getting caught up in the exact amount of tuition is missing the forest for the trees.

No, I think YOU are missing "it." Those schools are in business and have been in business for many years now because they are the only option to become an MD for some people. Now, it's been argued here by myself and others as to who those "some" people are but that route is nevertheless an option that is still on the table today. So having said that, a discussion about cost is a perfectly valid argument considering some schools are more expensive than others.
 
For the record this discussion was regarding SGU as it is the Caribbean school most people are familiar with. Yes, there are schools that are less expensive and even significantly less expensive but that's now what we are talking about here.

No, it will not cost 400K to go to ANY Caribbean school but then again not every Caribbean school is worth your time or money.

I also don't appreciate anyone who suggests that "I don't know what I'm talking about" when others seem to side with me on this and other issues and all of this information can be verified with CURRENT students and even administration at these schools.
 
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The likelihood that anyone will spend $400k and not end-up with a degree is remote. You will figure that out (or fail out) well before then. Now, you may spend that much and not end-up with a residency, but this can also happen if you go to a U.S. school (albeit less likely).

Advice for friend who didn't match

-Skip
 
It is certainly possible to finish four years of medical school in a Caribbean program and not match. That is something to be very weary about considering SOME schools will set you back 400K. There is an article that I am currently searching for about an SGU grad who is 400K in debt and working as a phlebotomist. I will post it if it is still online.

The odds of that happening at a US school are ONLY if you are a complete idiot and you fail your boards. We're talking about Caribbean grads who pass their boards and still don't match.
 
That is patently false.

-Skip
I assume you're talking about the part saying that it's virtually impossible to fail to match as a US grad?

I have personally come across at least two carib grads who failed to match multiple times and are now Dr. Unemployed, MD.
 
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I assume you're talking about the part saying that it's virtually impossible to fail to match as a US grad?

I have personally come across at least two carib grads who failed to match multiple times and are now Dr. Unemployed, MD.

You can't convince these people man. When we say we "know people," they think these are our imaginary friends.

I still say SGU is the best school to go to but even if you dig deep within the people in the know you will see that around 86% or so of people who ENTER the match actually match. Of course, that number jumps into the 90+% by the second year but it's not 100% and that should scare at least some people even if you are a stellar student with decent scores.

The bottom line is that the Caribbean is an opportunity with VERY HIGH risk attached to it. That's what I want some of these prospective applicants to see because you sure as hell won't here this from the school.
 
I assume you're talking about the part saying that it's virtually impossible to fail to match as a US grad?

It's not "virtually impossible". It happens. Not infrequently.

"I am a 38-year-old US medical graduate who has attempted to match 3 times with no success."​

Unmatched Graduate: “Med Schools to Blame”

"More than 250 of this year’s graduating seniors from U.S. allopathic schools did not match to a residency position..."​

Why medical students aren't matching--and what happens next?

"They have MDs to their names, but they can’t treat patients. Now Dr. [HS] — and others like her — are heading to nursing school to fulfill the dreams that were quashed when they failed to match with a residency program after medical school. ... This number includes hundreds of students in their final year at US medical schools..."​

After failing to get into a residency, this new MD is going to nursing school

"Instead of a better life, the National Resident Matching Program, Oregon Health and Sciences University and the American Medical Association have left us on the curb with over $400,000 dollars in debt and no way to pay it back."​

NOT A DOCTOR, JUST AN M.D.

-Skip
 
Did you factor interest on that? Check out the rates on the loans, then recalculate. Also add in living and travel expenses for your rotations and interviews, then calculate interest on those as well.

You'll hit $400k.


The point is in regards to aforemermedstudent saying how expensive SGU is. It isn't much more than many US schools.

Interest, living expenses, travel, food, etc are all fees that must be paid regardless of where you go. They are individualized and not the best way to compare tuitions of various schools to make an argument like SGU is super expensive compared to XYZ.

In my own personal case I don't hit anywhere near 400K including interest despite using fed loans for all 4 years tuition.
 
The point is in regards to aforemermedstudent saying how expensive SGU is. It isn't much more than many US schools.

Interest, living expenses, travel, food, etc are all fees that must be paid regardless of where you go. They are individualized and not the best way to compare tuitions of various schools to make an argument like SGU is super expensive compared to XYZ.

In my own personal case I don't hit anywhere near 400K including interest despite using fed loans for all 4 years tuition.

You're not getting it man. You're a med student, you should understand how this works and where this argument is going.

Regarding this...
how expensive SGU is. It isn't much more than many US schools.
You do realize most every state medical school is less money than SGU right?

Regarding the loan issue...you did live on a foreign island correct? A foreign island that is far removed from the western world. "Living expenses, travel, food," and fees like that ARE ESSENTIAL when calculating the fees for attending a foreign school because you're moving to a FREAKING ISLAND!!!!

That is why there is something called "COST OF ATTENDANCE." That is the absolute max cost that the school says it will cost to attend. That number is sent to the US Department of Education and they disburse loans out based on that amount. Nothing more but you can choose if you want less. Look, if you are filthy rich, you can take out tuition expenses only but what percentage of applicants are in that bracket? Let's assume most people need the full cost of attendance; if they do, they are going to take out 400K in four years. END OF DISCUSSION. Go call up SGU financial aid and give them your argument.
 
You're not getting it man. You're a med student, you should understand how this works and where this argument is going.

Regarding this... You do realize most every state medical school is less money than SGU right?

Regarding the loan issue...you did live on a foreign island correct? A foreign island that is far removed from the western world. "Living expenses, travel, food," and fees like that ARE ESSENTIAL when calculating the fees for attending a foreign school because you're moving to a FREAKING ISLAND!!!!

That is why there is something called "COST OF ATTENDANCE." That is the absolute max cost that the school says it will cost to attend. That number is sent to the US Department of Education and they disburse loans out based on that amount. Nothing more but you can choose if you want less. Look, if you are filthy rich, you can take out tuition expenses only but what percentage of applicants are in that bracket? Let's assume most people need the full cost of attendance; if they do, they are going to take out 400K in four years. END OF DISCUSSION. Go call up SGU financial aid and give them your argument.


#1 I am not a med student. I am a resident who finished at SGU (this you would know if you bothered to read my comments). I have FAFSA reminding me of how much I owe on a weekly basis now that grace period is ending.

#2 I am TELLING you that I used loans to pay for my FULL SGU tuition / living / travel and do not owe near 400K. But yet you are here telling me that I am mistaken when you haven't gone to SGU nor have you finished med school. Oddly enough I looked at tuition at the school I am at now and the cost is more than the SGU tuition for out of state students.

Assuming the absolute maximum cost of SGU comparing to the absolute minimum cost of a US school is not an accurate way to analyze tuition to make an argument.

Fees that are essential when traveling to an island? Ok so you can add 2 plane tickets a semester. From Grenada to NY it costs around 500-700 round trip. Thats 2 tickets a semester. About 6 grand total for the 2 years. Other than that what are these crazy island fees you are referring to that are unique to SGU that a US school counterpart wouldn't face? Living, food, etc are all comparable to USA which you would pay at any other school. You save a little in transport on the island as they have a good bus system both from SGU and from grenada itself.
 
I'll say it again even though it's getting tiring. Current year three students who took out the full cost of attendance are currently 175K in debt. There are two more years left which will put them at 400K by graduation.

I encourage you to contact the admissions department or the office of financial aid at SGU if you are doubting this information.

I would also HIGHLY encourage you to do some research on "cost of attendance" to see the difference between that figure and the tuition figure alone.
 
I'll say it again even though it's getting tiring. Current year three students who took out the full cost of attendance are currently 175K in debt. There are two more years left which will put them at 400K by graduation.

I encourage you to contact the admissions department or the office of financial aid at SGU if you are doubting this information.

I would also HIGHLY encourage you to do some research on "cost of attendance" to see the difference between that figure and the tuition figure alone.

Why do you think SGU is 5 years? Most of the SGU apps I see are done in 4. That would make all the difference in tuition.
 
I'll say it again even though it's getting tiring. Current year three students who took out the full cost of attendance are currently 175K in debt. There are two more years left which will put them at 400K by graduation.

I encourage you to contact the admissions department or the office of financial aid at SGU if you are doubting this information.

I would also HIGHLY encourage you to do some research on "cost of attendance" to see the difference between that figure and the tuition figure alone.

Clearly the anecdotal evidence of your "contacts" trumps my first hand experience and the clear cut fees on the website. I don't even understand how you are still arguing. 175K in your third year is about right. They have 1.5 years left which should put them around 275K total which is around the cost of 4 years full tuition.
 
Clearly the anecdotal evidence of your "contacts" trumps my first hand experience and the clear cut fees on the website. I don't even understand how you are still arguing. 175K in your third year is about right. They have 1.5 years left which should put them around 275K total which is around the cost of 4 years full tuition.

My friends are anecdotal lol?? You're a real winner dude.

Again, I'll direct you to my discussion of "Cost of Attendance." If you wish, you can pull up that information on SGU's website.

Here, I did the work for you...Student Budgets - myCampus

Now go away kid, you're wasting my time.
 
My friends are anecdotal lol?? You're a real winner dude.

Again, I'll direct you to my discussion of "Cost of Attendance." If you wish, you can pull up that information on SGU's website.

Here, I did the work for you...Student Budgets - myCampus

Now go away kid, you're wasting my time.

FYI, for those of you that are too stupid to interpret that chart. SGU has five clinical terms. Cost of attendance according to my calculations actually EXCEEDS 400K.

Obviously @shouldigomd went on the "economy" route and based on his arguments lol ...it shows.
 
My friends are anecdotal lol?? You're a real winner dude.

Again, I'll direct you to my discussion of "Cost of Attendance." If you wish, you can pull up that information on SGU's website.

Here, I did the work for you...Student Budgets - myCampus

Now go away kid, you're wasting my time.

Anecdotal evidence is evidence from anecdotes, i.e., evidence collected in a casual or informal manner and relying heavily or entirely on personal testimony.

Yes your friends are anecdotal. I'm tired of you not knowing what that word means. Dude, with the amount of time you spend on these boards arguing with people you could have gotten an MD/PhD/MBA by now.
 
Anecdotal evidence is evidence from anecdotes, i.e., evidence collected in a casual or informal manner and relying heavily or entirely on personal testimony.

Yes your friends are anecdotal. I'm tired of you not knowing what that word means. Dude, with the amount of time you spend on these boards arguing with people you could have gotten an MD/PhD/MBA by now.

The point of this post was what exactly?
 
To teach you what anecdotal means, because you didn't seem to know.

No anecdotes my friend. You need to be taught what a fact is. If you can't accept facts, you will see anecdotes. You get it?

If you can't accept reality, then everything you hear is going to seem anecdotal. Again, I don't know if that will make sense to you but try.
 
..... What? Anecdotes can be factual. They're still anecdotes.

The plural of anecdotes is not data.

Get a life dude. That chart I posted doesn't lie. End of discussion.
 
Get a life dude. That chart I posted doesn't lie. End of discussion.

I'm not talking about your chart. Don't really care about your chart. I'm trying to help you understand what "anecdote" means. Instead of taking the opportunity to learn, you're being combative and dismissive. Please take this as a chance to recognize what you're doing and change; I suspect this attitude may well be related to some of the missteps you appear to have had in the past.
 
I'm not talking about your chart. Don't really care about your chart. I'm trying to help you understand what "anecdote" means. Instead of taking the opportunity to learn, you're being combative and dismissive. Please take this as a chance to recognize what you're doing and change; I suspect this attitude may well be related to some of the missteps you appear to have had in the past.

When we are losing an argument, we tend to turn the discussion personal. Don't stoop to that level man. You'll only make yourself look like a fool. This discussion was about debt...not me. And I made my point and provided factual information not eh...anecdotes?

Now stop responding because you're being annoying.
 
When we are losing an argument, we tend to turn the discussion personal. Don't stoop to that level man. You'll only make yourself look like a fool. This discussion was about debt...not me. And I made my point and provided factual information not eh...anecdotes?

Now stop responding because you're being annoying.

Well, you provided anecdotes.

BTW, not to derail this thread further, your info says you're a medical student, but a review of your posting history suggests you are not a med student. I'd ask you to update that info if it's not accurate.
 
Well, you provided anecdotes.

BTW, not to derail this thread further, your info says you're a medical student, but a review of your posting history suggests you are not a med student. I'd ask you to update that info if it's not accurate.

Stop posting further.

Also, if you reviewed, as you say, ALL my posts you will see that I "withdrew" from a Caribbean program and that is very key here because a lot of people kinda miss that part for some reason whether intentional or non-intentional is of no concern to me however. Anyhow, being withdrawn gives me three terms to return to the program so technically I am still a medical student so no need to update anything.

And as a heads up, try to learn how to separate factual, verifiable information from "anecdotes." I went to the Caribbean myself, I don't need anecdotes to make an argument or...win one.
 
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Oh lordy.

Sorry, I don't deal with anecdotes so maybe I don't understand the definition quite as well as you do. My apologies.

Now you have a nice day.
 
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