Public Perception of Dentists

[DocJL]

Waaaaaaaa? This statement doesn't make an sense. Why wouldn't he have the "excellent skill" required to be held in very high regard? Because he thinks that some MD's have hand skills? That statement is flat out redonk!

Who cares where he is in his training? He is obviously not at the "I'm a real doctor, held in such high regard" stage yet. When does that happen? When you are laughing all the way to the bank? (as per your previous statement)

Very high regard... are you kidding me. This is part of the public's perception problem. You are making it sound like you are working on the space shuttle, filling teeth in zero gravity--such skill- wow!

Complex restorative procedure? seriously.

I'm not arguing that dentistry requires hand-skills, but get over yourself already.

PS- go watch some microvascular surgery if you think that complex restorations require hand skill.

My English was perhaps a bit cumbersome there (although I think GreatOMFSHope understood the gist of my statement).

I should have phrased that as, "You don't seem to hold in high regard the
amount of skill required to be an excellent dentist." (OMFSHope's reply made it clear that was a misunderstanding on my part, so this is NOT an attempt to revisit that statement, only to clarify it for you, as you obviously read it very quickly)

However, YOUR disdain for restorative dentists is duly noted. I'm sure you will have a large pool of dentists lining up to refer their patients to you when you enter practice. And then YOU can laugh all the way to the bank. or not.

After all, compared to a "master surgeon" like yourself, we're all just clumsy clowns performing "fillings" (as you roll your eyes thinking how funny it is that a general dentist might perform "complex restorative procedures". yes, seriously.


Apparently you haven't escaped the dental school dogma that only prosthodontists working in conjunction with perio and OS perform complex full mouth rehabilitations. and that's probably the norm for most of us when we leave dental school. but that's not the norm in the real world of private practice. spend some time surfing Dentaltown.com and you will get some good real world views on the type of complex restorative dentistry many general dentists are doing every day.

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Members don't see this ad.

 

[CanuckDDS]

My English was perhaps a bit cumbersome there (although I think GreatOMFSHope understood the gist of my statement).

I should have phrased that as, "You don't seem to hold in high regard the
amount of skill required to be an excellent dentist." (OMFSHope's reply made it clear that was a misunderstanding on my part, so this is NOT an attempt to revisit that statement, only to clarify it for you, as you obviously read it very quickly)

However, YOUR disdain for restorative dentists is duly noted. I'm sure you will have a large pool of dentists lining up to refer their patients to you when you enter practice. And then YOU can laugh all the way to the bank. or not.

After all, compared to a "master surgeon" like yourself, we're all just clumsy clowns performing "fillings" (as you roll your eyes thinking how funny it is that a general dentist might perform "complex restorative procedures". yes, seriously.


Apparently you haven't escaped the dental school dogma that only prosthodontists working in conjunction with perio and OS perform complex full mouth rehabilitations. and that's probably the norm for most of us when we leave dental school. but that's not the norm in the real world of private practice. spend some time surfing Dentaltown.com and you will get some good real world views on the type of complex restorative dentistry many general dentists are doing every day.

I do not have disdain for general dentists at all. I was one for 5 years. I just didn't go around telling people how great I was. I never said I was a "master surgeon", those are your words- not mine.

I know lots of general dentists who I "hold in very high regard", I think they are fantastic at what they do. They are also the ones that don't go around telling people how fantastic they are and that they have better hands than god because they are dentists. Coincidently, they are also the ones that do not have the full page ads in the Yellow Pages....


I prefer NOT surfing dentaltown. It makes me vomit, and is the reason other healthcare professionals and the PUBLIC (which is the point of the tread) think that we are businessmen not "real doctors". Thank you, for the advise wrt referrals (I always appreciate that). I'm sure I'll scrape by with the referrals that I get...

 

[DocJL]

I do not have disdain for general dentists at all. I was one for 5 years. I just didn't go around telling people how great I was. I never said I was a "master surgeon", those are your words- not mine.

I know lots of general dentists who I "hold in very high regard", I think they are fantastic at what they do. They are also the ones that don't go around telling people how fantastic they are and that they have better hands than god because they are dentists. Coincidently, they are also the ones that do not have the full page ads in the Yellow Pages....


I prefer NOT surfing dentaltown. It makes me vomit, and is the reason other healthcare professionals and the PUBLIC (which is the point of the tread) think that we are businessmen not "real doctors". Thank you, for the advise wrt referrals (I always appreciate that). I'm sure I'll scrape by with the referrals that I get...

Sorry I touched a nerve. You sound very bitter about your time as a general dentist. And I can only imagine seeing the many successful general dentist posters on Dentaltown is what "makes you vomit". You probably didn't do very well as a dentist, perhaps you needed to polish your people skills. Or maybe you needed to learn how to do more than "fillings". Perhaps if you had taken the time to develop your skills to where you could handle complex restorative cases (yes there's those words you hate again), you would have a higher opinion of your profession.

It is sad to see a dentist throw their own profession under the bus as you do. this entire thread was started by somebody who claims to be a dental student, although that is even doubtful. personally I have not heard any widespread public portrayals of dentists as "businessmen and not doctors". On the contrary, I have read many surveys where the dental profession is widely considered one of the most trusted, consistently ranking similar to medicine in that regard.

And this is NOT to imply every dentist who goes back for specialty training is not doing well as a general dentist, but it certainly makes it harder to consider once you are an experienced general dentist, as the opportunity cost is much higher (unless you aren't making much money).

You seem to assume a lot. Did ANYBODY on this thread claim they had better hands than God because they are dentists? perhaps you should re-read my posts. I also said NOTHING about my own hand skills.

I didn't understand your yellow pages reference (personally I don't even have an ad, my practice is all referral based internal marketing).

 

[DocJL]

http://www.cds.org/for_your_practice/online_columnists/practice_management/polls.html


http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/hea...ign=Feed:+PictureOfHealth+(Picture+of+Health)


http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Docto...+Trusted+Professionals+to+Give...-a0145567699


http://www.cnsnews.com/node/58362


these are just a few of many polls (and no I didn't try to determine how "scientific" the polls are)

 

[armorshell]

I'm not arguing that dentistry requires hand-skills, but get over yourself already.

PS- go watch some microvascular surgery if you think that complex restorations require hand skill.

Yeah, I can imagine hearing that would sound a little ridiculous, that our dentistry training is to thank in part for our surgical skill and success as a specialty.

Until you hear Ghali say it. You know, someone who does microvascular surgery, Someone who say in no unclear terms that OMFS is positioned as an ideal provider for microvascular surgery simply because of how we are selected for dexterity as compared to our MD counterparts.

 

[DocJL]

ditto what armorshell said, and I'll say it again:


just as an observation, I do believe the vast majority of OMFS have excellent hands. why? because typically to get into OMFS you have to finish in the top 20% of your dental school class, and to finish in the top 20% of your dental school class, you have to develop and demonstrate excellent hand skills. (obviously there are exceptions, just a general observation).

the same cannot be said for medical students, who then may match into surgery. there is no correlating skill set development and evaluation of fine motor skills in medical school.

I've had several discussions with friends who are MD's about oral surgeons performing facial plastic surgery, and I have made this argument with them. My wife had a rhinoplasty when I was in dental school by the chief of plastic surgery at my school (not the chief resident, the chief chief). Long story short, he did an awful job. During my GPR one of the attending OMFS who had comleted a facial plastics fellowship redid her nose, and it came out perfect. (I observed this guy for the first half of my GPR before I asked him to work on my wife, he had incredible hands, although he was also probably the most arrogant surgeon I've ever worked with - btw, his nickname amongst the residents was "M.S." - for, you guessed it, "master surgeon".

 

[CanuckDDS]

Sorry I touched a nerve. You sound very bitter about your time as a general dentist. And I can only imagine seeing the many successful general dentist posters on Dentaltown is what "makes you vomit". You probably didn't do very well as a dentist, perhaps you needed to polish your people skills. Or maybe you needed to learn how to do more than "fillings". Perhaps if you had taken the time to develop your skills to where you could handle complex restorative cases (yes there's those words you hate again), you would have a higher opinion of your profession.

It is sad to see a dentist throw their own profession under the bus as you do. this entire thread was started by somebody who claims to be a dental student, although that is even doubtful. personally I have not heard any widespread public portrayals of dentists as "businessmen and not doctors". On the contrary, I have read many surveys where the dental profession is widely considered one of the most trusted, consistently ranking similar to medicine in that regard.

And this is NOT to imply every dentist who goes back for specialty training is not doing well as a general dentist, but it certainly makes it harder to consider once you are an experienced general dentist, as the opportunity cost is much higher (unless you aren't making much money).

You seem to assume a lot. Did ANYBODY on this thread claim they had better hands than God because they are dentists? perhaps you should re-read my posts. I also said NOTHING about my own hand skills.

I didn't understand your yellow pages reference (personally I don't even have an ad, my practice is all referral based internal marketing).

Bwaaaahahaaahaha! This is pure gold.

 

[DocJL]

Bwaaaahahaaahaha! This is pure gold.

Insightful reply. As might be expected from someone who practiced dentistry for 5 years, and then rolls his eyes sarcastically and laughs at the thought of a dentist performing complex restorative dentistry. For a new grad, again not having had his eyes opened to the possibilities of practice outside of what is taught in dental school ("You MUST refer THIS to a specialist...."), this makes sense; for one who claims to have practiced for 5 years....... well...... let's just say it appears you've made it clear what a skillful, well trained provider of comprehensive dentistry you must've been as a general dentist.

I'm sure you were wildly financially successful too, and perhaps this explains your disdain for the thousands of dentist members on Dentaltown (as of January this year, there are over 130,000 registered members, but hey, you can just throw them under the bus ("Dentaltown makes me vomit"), as you do the profession of Dentistry.

 

[diplo123]

And btw all I meant by 'hand skills as good as any surgeon' comment is that we work in millimeters, sometimes tenths of millimeters. Surgery doesn't get much more micro than that. If you are a great dentist with great hand skills, you would have at least the hand skills/control to do almost any surgery; you would obviously need the training for it.

Dentists need to start stepping up and defening the profession because most on the outside have no clue how much hard work and dedication it takes to be a good dentist. Especially from non-dental students saying 'we're not realy doctors' pathetic.

 

[CanuckDDS]

Insightful reply. As might be expected from someone who practiced dentistry for 5 years, and then rolls his eyes sarcastically and laughs at the thought of a dentist performing complex restorative dentistry. For a new grad, again not having had his eyes opened to the possibilities of practice outside of what is taught in dental school ("You MUST refer THIS to a specialist...."), this makes sense; for one who claims to have practiced for 5 years....... well...... let's just say it appears you've made it clear what a skillful, well trained provider of comprehensive dentistry you must've been as a general dentist.

I'm sure you were wildly financially successful too, and perhaps this explains your disdain for the thousands of dentist members on Dentaltown (as of January this year, there are over 130,000 registered members, but hey, you can just throw them under the bus ("Dentaltown makes me vomit"), as you do the profession of Dentistry.

Thank you for you insightful reply and all the assumptions about my finances, skill set, previous practice philosophy, etc.... And I wonder why people think that some dentists are arrogant douchbags- hmmmmm....


BTW, this all started because you (not me) said things to DENTAL STUDENTS like--- "let me add my .02...surgeons slip, they place a couple of extra sutures (unless they happen to slip at a very bad time in a very bad place.......)" AND

"Am I to understand that you are currently an OMFS resident? or are you a senior dental student who has already been accepted into a program? or are you simply aspiring to be an OS? You don't come across as holding the skill required to be an excellent dentist in very high regard, so I wonder where you are in your professional education? ".

Who is throwing who under the bus?
Quick, remind me how great you are again, and don't forget to throw in some insults about how awful and financially unsuccessful I was at placing buccal composites and doing hygiene checks.


I'm done, I have to go and learn something at dentaltown.com now...I'm going to start by learning "neuromuscular dentistry" and "rapid invisalign on periodontally compromised teeth", seems to be a hot topic.

Good luck to you brother, I hope you continue to do well. (and I actually am being serious here)

 

[DocJL]

Thank you for you insightful reply and all the assumptions about my finances, skill set, previous practice philosophy, etc.... And I wonder why people think that some dentists are arrogant douchbags- hmmmmm....


BTW, this all started because you (not me) said things to DENTAL STUDENTS like--- "let me add my .02...surgeons slip, they place a couple of extra sutures (unless they happen to slip at a very bad time in a very bad place.......)" AND

"Am I to understand that you are currently an OMFS resident? or are you a senior dental student who has already been accepted into a program? or are you simply aspiring to be an OS? You don't come across as holding the skill required to be an excellent dentist in very high regard, so I wonder where you are in your professional education? ".

Who is throwing who under the bus?
Quick, remind me how great you are again, and don't forget to throw in some insults about how awful and financially unsuccessful I was at placing buccal composites and doing hygiene checks.


I'm done, I have to go and learn something at dentaltown.com now...I'm going to start by learning "neuromuscular dentistry" and "rapid invisalign on periodontally compromised teeth", seems to be a hot topic.

Good luck to you brother, I hope you continue to do well. (and I actually am being serious here)

Good luck to you as well. You obviously have a lot of anger issues towards successful dentists.

Again, it's a shame your opinion of general dentistry is that it consists of "placing buccal composites and doing hygiene checks". You continue to reinforce the assumptions that were made about your level of training and care delivery. Which further reinforces the likelihood you were failing miserably in general practice. That is OK. There is no shame. Private practice is exceptionally difficult.

I truly hope you do well as an OMFS. The surgeons I work with are among my most respected peers. And the ones that I know that are extremely successful would never think to characterize general practice as "buccal pits and hygiene checks".

 

[Mohab]

Who is throwing who under the bus?

Who is throwing WHOM under the bus?

 

[GreatOMFSHope]

And btw all I meant by 'hand skills as good as any surgeon' comment is that we work in millimeters, sometimes tenths of millimeters. Surgery doesn't get much more micro than that. If you are a great dentist with great hand skills, you would have at least the hand skills/control to do almost any surgery; you would obviously need the training for it.

Dentists need to start stepping up and defening the profession because most on the outside have no clue how much hard work and dedication it takes to be a good dentist. Especially from non-dental students saying 'we're not realy doctors' pathetic.

I just think you're wrong. Sorry. It's your opinion and I appreciate it, but you can't assume that good dental handskills automatically correlates to any surgery. There are many jobs that require great hand skills. People who carve ice sculptures have great hand skills. Does that automatically mean they can locate an MB2 or perform CV surgery with the right training?

Do you think surgeon's sit around and say, "My hand skills are so good, I could do any dental procedure!"? Maybe the perception of dentistry as being below medicine is coming internally. Why do we even have to try to say we can do any surgery?

I'm glad you love your job. I just feel like your beating your chest a bit too hard and trying to compare apples to oranges.

 

[diplo123]

I just think you're wrong. Sorry. It's your opinion and I appreciate it, but you can't assume that good dental handskills automatically correlates to any surgery. There are many jobs that require great hand skills. People who carve ice sculptures have great hand skills. Does that automatically mean they can locate an MB2 or perform CV surgery with the right training?

Do you think surgeon's sit around and say, "My hand skills are so good, I could do any dental procedure!"? Maybe the perception of dentistry as being below medicine is coming internally. Why do we even have to try to say we can do any surgery?

I'm glad you love your job. I just feel like your beating your chest a bit too hard and trying to compare apples to oranges.

Why do you think i said you would need the training? And by training I mean years of residency. But the hand skills of a good dentist are undoubtedly extremely precise, and a very tiny portion of the general population has that type of hand skills. So let's stop arguing like little children about 'oo medicine is better than dentistry' or vice versa. In a lot of countries dentistry is a subset/specialty of medicine. We do our thing MD's do theirs. Different professions, different objectives. No need to compare/contrast.

But dentistry is by no means easy; it's a ton of hard work and to imply that the years of study/hard work do not merit the title of doctor is a joke and we mustn't allow laypeople do start making those accusations.

 

[DocJL]

My bad, you didn't make that statement.

D4 here that should be accepted into an OS program on Monday, as long as 14 programs didn't realize I was an a-hole in one day (Glad it was just one day interviews).

Did you get in?

 

[GreatOMFSHope]

Yes, to my #1.

 

[DocJL]

Congratulations, glad to hear it.

 

[Mackchops]

Haha. Dentists are trusted more than clergy! Well, at least we've got THAT going for us

http://www.cds.org/for_your_practice/online_columnists/practice_management/polls.html


http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/hea...ign=Feed:+PictureOfHealth+(Picture+of+Health)


http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Docto...+Trusted+Professionals+to+Give...-a0145567699


http://www.cnsnews.com/node/58362


these are just a few of many polls (and no I didn't try to determine how "scientific" the polls are)

 

[servitup]

Diplo is correct. The manual dexterity of dentists does give us a huge leg up when we start residency over our medical colleagues. By the end of residency, things are even but starting out we are way ahead.

My chairman looks at applicants' restorative and prosth grades and will hold poor ones against you with the assumption you've got no hands.

 

[GreatOMFSHope]

Diplo is correct. The manual dexterity of dentists does give us a huge leg up when we start residency over our medical colleagues. By the end of residency, things are even but starting out we are way ahead.

My chairman looks at applicants' restorative and prosth grades and will hold poor ones against you with the assumption you've got no hands.

If candidate A had a 98 on Part I, decent class rank (outside of pros and restorative), great personality, and five thumbs, I think your director would still rank that person very highly.

 

[jk5177]

Doesn't bother me one bit and it never has. Many of us make more money, work less hours, and often have less headaches. Not all of that holds true, but it often does.

Let the people think what they want. I like it when dentistry is flying under the radar.

Tech.

 

[NotPennysBoat]

I was recently reading a newspaper article about the rise in dental fees and saw a comment posted below the article:

"
Hygienists are similar to nurses in the amount of training they receive but I'm sorry, dentists are nowhere near the level of education or skills as an M.D. and they never will be. Dentists are like chiropractors or podiatrists and often have offices situated in strip malls (since we're "keeping it real"). If you're a dentist you should go back to a real school (not your state university) and become a real professional if you want respect. Don't fool yourselves, very few are in awe of your dental degree and you're not really a doctor. Dentists aren't doing heart or brain surgery, they're drilling a hole in a tooth and filling it. The hygienists you think so lowly of are trained to do this in Washington, they give anesthesia and nitrous oxide. Isn't dental school just a glorified technical school that's four years instead of 2? And if you're so smart did you go to an ivy or public ivy school? I bet many dentists graduated from the same state university as their hygienists. I have more respect for engineers with a 4 year degree than I do dentists. This forum proves what a joke most dentists are. Get over yourselves. I bet a lot of dentists hate what they do and they've got so much money invested in their education and practice they don't have any choice now, they're stuck as a lowly dentist! Don't take your frustrations out on your staff. Hygienists should go to grad school after they've had enough of this abuse and study something completely unrelated. Hygiene can be a convenient stepping stone. Many of the dentists in here have a mistaken sense of superiority and inflated ego. Their sexist and negative attitudes are laughable. Anyone can do dentistry but it takes real dedication and intelligence to achieve excellence in the profession. Many hygienists do their very best under unfavorable circumstances because the dentist is interested in high turnover instead of high standards."


There were tons of people agreeing with the comment, calling us greedy "fake doctors".

This is really disheartening, is this what people really think of us? Any experiences of those in practice?

Let me get this straight... You were reading the paper and in a comment about this article it makes reference to "this forum"? It seems to me that you wrote this and accidentally got caught up in writing your hate letter and messed up. Whoopsidaisy! This thread is a joke.

 

[kato999]

http://www.aolnews.com/2011/03/08/c...ewis-ludwig-buys-40-in-pizza/?test=latestnews

This can't help the public's perception.

 

[kctoothdr]

Never mind

 

[dragonteeth]

Going back to the op, having been at this game for quite a while (11 years as a doc, and since late 80s in office management/staff) I do see a huge change in the public's attitude towards our profession. If I had to lay the blame anywhere, my first choice by far would be the advent of the aesthetic/cosmetics/boutique dentistry movement. With this came the seminars on how to sell, and upsell, dentistry, along with the concomitant schpiel on how to go to a cash only practice.

When was the last time you met a physician (outside of plastics) who tried to sell you anything? And when was the last time they told you that you had to pay up front and file your own insurance?

When we move from doing what is in the patient's best health interest (and orthodontic treatment of anyone with active periodontal disease is certainly not, imho), we move in perception from healthcare provider to used car salesman. When we gear our practice's financial policies so as to restrict access to care to only those who can afford to pay thousands of dollars out of pocket, the label of greedy bastards applied by the overwhelming majority who cannot is inevitable.

Surgeons do endure another 6 years of residency than general dentists so I don't know if its fair to pit hand skills side by side. That said I do think the majority of OMFS (and yes that's how I have seen it written in school and after) residents would skunk their same year general surgery counterparts in any test of dexterity. The eyeball guys might be a different story (and if you doubt me there check out corneal transplant sutures under loupes the next time a patient comes in with them).

And when it said we don't save lives...please allow me to direct you to the family of the Ludwig's angina patient we have in ICU for comment on that issue. Maybe you'd rather talk to the denture patient seen last week. With ill fitting dentures his diet was limited to high carb mush, and his A1c was 11.5. 6 months after being fitted with a new properly fabricated set with which he can actually chew that value has fallen 3 points. We won't even go into what his quality of life is now.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying aesthetics have no place in dentistry. I did that for the first 8 years if my dental career. It's a great feeling to be able to totally change how a person feels about their smile. That said, if we want to regain the public's good opinion of our profession and start being seen as "doctors" again, maybe we should tone down the sales pitch and ease up on the cash only push. When they see us caring first about their health, then they will be much more likely to see us as healthcare professionals.

 

[Machiavelliansm]

What's all this B.S. about the hand skill stuff!!! Given enough practice, anybody with functioning gray matter can learn to move their fingers to accomplish delicate tasks. I practiced as a GP for 4 years and I can very safely say that rapport and leadership make you more money than any "special" hand skills you think you might posess!

That said, I only decided to post because DocJL is an obtuse, misinformed blowhard.



I come from a family of physicians. My father was a cardio-thoracic surgeon, my older brother a general surgeon and my younger brother an anesthesiologist. I assure you the average general surgeon makes far more than the average general dentist and if you believe successfull dentists make it because they have better hands, you're clueless.

You've posted a lot of BS DocJL! We may posess a lot of knowledge as dentists but it's not medical knowledge. Dentistry is a noble profession but STOP trying to make it something it's not. People call dentists "Fake doctors" because people like you try to equate what we do with what physicians do. You and your mythical "complex restorations"...your lab should be doing the boasting for those you jackass!

on a side note: your family must consider you the failed child. lol, jk jk. but seriously, given your pedigree, what made you choose dentistry over med?

 

[DocJL]

What's all this B.S. about the hand skill stuff!!! Given enough practice, anybody with functioning gray matter can learn to move their fingers to accomplish delicate tasks. I practiced as a GP for 4 years and I can very safely say that rapport and leadership make you more money than any "special" hand skills you think you might posess!

That said, I only decided to post because DocJL is an obtuse, misinformed blowhard.



I come from a family of physicians. My father was a cardio-thoracic surgeon, my older brother a general surgeon and my younger brother an anesthesiologist. I assure you the average general surgeon makes far more than the average general dentist and if you believe successfull dentists make it because they have better hands, you're clueless.

You've posted a lot of BS DocJL! We may posess a lot of knowledge as dentists but it's not medical knowledge. Dentistry is a noble profession but STOP trying to make it something it's not. People call dentists "Fake doctors" because people like you try to equate what we do with what physicians do. You and your mythical "complex restorations"...your lab should be doing the boasting for those you jackass!

Ahhhhh.... another FAILED bitter general dentist throwing his profession under the bus.

Sad, really.

Obviously, as you so proudly note, coming from a family of accomplished physicians, you no doubt couldn't get into an MD program and managed to get into a dental school (no doubt an expensive private school with easier admissions - but hey no problem since you were a rich "doctor's kid" and had it all paid for by daddy). You're family must look down apon you as the "underachiever" of the group (a belief which you bolstered by your own derision towards the dental profession), and now you are going back to what, OMFS (where you will need hand skills) or Ortho (where you won't, unless it's a lot more demanding to bond brackets than I've noticed - actually hope it is ortho, since you obviously have poor hand skills, based on your blasting of the notion that they do contribute to being a good dentist - if it's ortho your assistants can do all the work for you) to try to build your self esteem. Certainly not Endo, as endodontist peform what is essentially micro-surgery all day long, and it is established you haven't even figured out that hand skills are an important part of dental practice (no doubt you are "all thumbs").

I guess if I'm clueless in your estimation, I'll just have to learn to live with that - my personal income has been substantially over the 75th percentile for dentist practice owners (all dentists, not just general) for the better part of a decade (based on ADA Surveys of Dental Practice - Income from the Private Practice of Dentistry), so maybe it's not just "hand skills" that I've got a handle on. I never inferred that a dentist with great artistic ability and excellent hand skills alone would be successful. It is only one piece of the puzzle. But it certainly makes practice easier, and makes it easier to perform a wider range of dental procedures well, and thus make more money while you make more pts happy. It is people skills more than anything else which determines if you will do well financially in dentistry.

I put this knowledge out there to demonstrate where I am coming from. And I don't have a problem sharing knowledge or insights I've gained over the years with other dentists. Too many in our profession want to make everything a "big secret" and not offer useful advice or insight to younger docs. It's a shame you pick isolated bits of my posts out of context and use that as a reason to attack me (complete with name-calling, lol).

I also never stated anything about "medical knowledge", other than the fact that the first 6 of 8 years of training for both professions are virtually identical.

And for the record, coming across as a snotty "doctor's kid" has no doubt helped you make tons of money in private practice (or not)

If you were doing well in general practice, the opportunity cost of attending a 3 to 4 year residency would be in the neighborhood of 1.2 to 2 million dollars, or more, so I think we can safely say you were NOT doing well in general practice.

FAIL.

enjoy your residency, you arrogant, bitter failed dentist, and thanks for selling out your profession.

 

[CanuckDDS]

Ahhhhh.... another FAILED bitter general dentist throwing his profession under the bus.

Sad, really.

Obviously, as you so proudly note, coming from a family of accomplished physicians, you no doubt couldn't get into an MD program and managed to get into a dental school (no doubt an expensive private school with easier admissions - but hey no problem since you were a rich "doctor's kid" and had it all paid for by daddy). You're family must look down apon you as the "underachiever" of the group (a belief which you bolstered by your own derision towards the dental profession), and now you are going back to what, OMFS (where you will need hand skills) or Ortho (where you won't, unless it's a lot more demanding to bond brackets than I've noticed - actually hope it is ortho, since you obviously have poor hand skills, based on your blasting of the notion that they do contribute to being a good dentist - if it's ortho your assistants can do all the work for you) to try to build your self esteem. Certainly not Endo, as endodontist peform what is essentially micro-surgery all day long, and it is established you haven't even figured out that hand skills are an important part of dental practice (no doubt you are "all thumbs").

I guess if I'm clueless in your estimation, I'll just have to learn to live with that - my personal income has been substantially over the 75th percentile for dentist practice owners (all dentists, not just general) for the better part of a decade (based on ADA Surveys of Dental Practice - Income from the Private Practice of Dentistry), so maybe it's not just "hand skills" that I've got a handle on. I never inferred that a dentist with great artistic ability and excellent hand skills alone would be successful. It is only one piece of the puzzle. But it certainly makes practice easier, and makes it easier to perform a wider range of dental procedures well, and thus make more money while you make more pts happy. It is people skills more than anything else which determines if you will do well financially in dentistry.

I put this knowledge out there to demonstrate where I am coming from. And I don't have a problem sharing knowledge or insights I've gained over the years with other dentists. Too many in our profession want to make everything a "big secret" and not offer useful advice or insight to younger docs. It's a shame you pick isolated bits of my posts out of context and use that as a reason to attack me (complete with name-calling, lol).

I also never stated anything about "medical knowledge", other than the fact that the first 6 of 8 years of training for both professions are virtually identical.

And for the record, coming across as a snotty "doctor's kid" has no doubt helped you make tons of money in private practice (or not)

If you were doing well in general practice, the opportunity cost of attending a 3 to 4 year residency would be in the neighborhood of 1.2 to 2 million dollars, or more, so I think we can safely say you were NOT doing well in general practice.

FAIL.

enjoy your residency, you arrogant, bitter failed dentist, and thanks for selling out your profession.

I believe this entire post confirms character. Well done. Let me summarize....
MoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyYouMust SUCKMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyI'mthebestMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoney. Close enough?
And we wonder why the public's perception is what it is? It is because of guys like you that I went back to specialize, I got into this originally for the health care not the wealth care.

 

[DocJL]

I believe this entire post confirms character. Well done. Let me summarize....
MoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyYouMust SUCKMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyI'mthebestMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoneyMoney. Close enough?
And we wonder why the public's perception is what it is? It is because of guys like you that I went back to specialize, I got into this originally for the health care not the wealth care.

Glad to see your back Canuck. I was afraid after that beat down I administered to you a couple months ago, you were hanging from the rafters in your parents attic.

Yeah we get it. You're Mother Theresa, and you only went back to specialize because of "guys like me". That makes about as much sense as your other posts.

I suppose after completing your OMFS program you plan on working in public health? or the military? or teaching? which are all vital and noble pursuits (and I mean that - I spent 10 years in the active duty military serving my country).

Because obviously you find the thought of a dentist making a good living so "morally reprehensible" that you wouldn't think of entering private practice as an oral surgeon and (gasp!) making hundreds of thousands of dollars a year. And the fact that you were a miserable failure, financially and professionally as a general dentist had NOTHING to do with it.

Yeah, right, its about the "health care, not the wealth care".

We ALL believe you.

The fact is, making a good living has EVERYTHING to do with why people choose to go into different fields in health care, and not just on the dental side. People who insinuate that being a great doctor (of any kind), is somehow inversely related to a desire to make a good living and provide for their own families are living in a fantasy world.

and yes it IS patently obvious you were a failure as a general dentist. Your attitude portrays that in striking tones. The fact that you think general dentistry consists solely of "hygiene checks and buccal pits" (these are your words), speaks volumes. Add that to the fact that you mock even the term "complex restoration", and you've presented a very clear picture of both what kind of dentist you were, and what you think of the dental profession as a whole.

 

[monreal]

Ahhhhh.... another FAILED bitter general dentist throwing his profession under the bus.

Sad, really.

Obviously, as you so proudly note, coming from a family of accomplished physicians, you no doubt couldn't get into an MD program and managed to get into a dental school (no doubt an expensive private school with easier admissions - but hey no problem since you were a rich "doctor's kid" and had it all paid for by daddy). You're family must look down apon you as the "underachiever" of the group (a belief which you bolstered by your own derision towards the dental profession), and now you are going back to what, OMFS (where you will need hand skills) or Ortho (where you won't, unless it's a lot more demanding to bond brackets than I've noticed - actually hope it is ortho, since you obviously have poor hand skills, based on your blasting of the notion that they do contribute to being a good dentist - if it's ortho your assistants can do all the work for you) to try to build your self esteem. Certainly not Endo, as endodontist peform what is essentially micro-surgery all day long, and it is established you haven't even figured out that hand skills are an important part of dental practice (no doubt you are "all thumbs").

I guess if I'm clueless in your estimation, I'll just have to learn to live with that - my personal income has been substantially over the 75th percentile for dentist practice owners (all dentists, not just general) for the better part of a decade (based on ADA Surveys of Dental Practice - Income from the Private Practice of Dentistry), so maybe it's not just "hand skills" that I've got a handle on. I never inferred that a dentist with great artistic ability and excellent hand skills alone would be successful. It is only one piece of the puzzle. But it certainly makes practice easier, and makes it easier to perform a wider range of dental procedures well, and thus make more money while you make more pts happy. It is people skills more than anything else which determines if you will do well financially in dentistry.

I put this knowledge out there to demonstrate where I am coming from. And I don't have a problem sharing knowledge or insights I've gained over the years with other dentists. Too many in our profession want to make everything a "big secret" and not offer useful advice or insight to younger docs. It's a shame you pick isolated bits of my posts out of context and use that as a reason to attack me (complete with name-calling, lol).

I also never stated anything about "medical knowledge", other than the fact that the first 6 of 8 years of training for both professions are virtually identical.

And for the record, coming across as a snotty "doctor's kid" has no doubt helped you make tons of money in private practice (or not)

If you were doing well in general practice, the opportunity cost of attending a 3 to 4 year residency would be in the neighborhood of 1.2 to 2 million dollars, or more, so I think we can safely say you were NOT doing well in general practice.

FAIL.

enjoy your residency, you arrogant, bitter failed dentist, and thanks for selling out your profession.

Big time

 

[CanuckDDS]

Glad to see your back Canuck. I was afraid after that beat down I administered to you a couple months ago, you were hanging from the rafters in your parents attic.

Yeah we get it. You're Mother Theresa, and you only went back to specialize because of "guys like me". That makes about as much sense as your other posts.

I suppose after completing your OMFS program you plan on working in public health? or the military? or teaching? which are all vital and noble pursuits (and I mean that - I spent 10 years in the active duty military serving my country).

Because obviously you find the thought of a dentist making a good living so "morally reprehensible" that you wouldn't think of entering private practice as an oral surgeon and (gasp!) making hundreds of thousands of dollars a year. And the fact that you were a miserable failure, financially and professionally as a general dentist had NOTHING to do with it.

Yeah, right, its about the "health care, not the wealth care".

We ALL believe you.

The fact is, making a good living has EVERYTHING to do with why people choose to go into different fields in health care, and not just on the dental side. People who insinuate that being a great doctor (of any kind), is somehow inversely related to a desire to make a good living and provide for their own families are living in a fantasy world.

and yes it IS patently obvious you were a failure as a general dentist. Your attitude portrays that in striking tones. The fact that you think general dentistry consists solely of "hygiene checks and buccal pits" (these are your words), speaks volumes. Add that to the fact that you mock even the term "complex restoration", and you've presented a very clear picture of both what kind of dentist you were, and what you think of the dental profession as a whole.

Thanks for the beat down. I'm really put in my place. I'm really upset that I'm not as successful as you- keep telling yourself that, it'll make you grow taller. Hey are you the guy in the article above? The credit card guy? Just wondering...

Completely on topic. My, you defend YOUR "profession" with ferocity but....

Hey, weren't you throwing a colleague (that is right, I consider good dentists colleagues) under the bus in another forum not too long ago. Something about commenting on an endo where a comment shouldn't be made. Maybe he got sued- that would make you happy cause of his inferiority to you right?

Do you do that often? Sh!+ talk other dentist's work. Is that part of your business model? Is that why you are sooooo successful?

Other forum users: watch out for guys like this- they are like an incurable cancer. They don't go away and they'll take you and the profession as a whole down with them.
Again, I know all about guys like you.

BTW- save us your comment about how awful I must've been as a general dentist and how much money you make and how successful you are. Your assumptions are a waste time to read. I stopped commenting because obviously you made your (and my point really) perfectly clear.

And I'm pretty sure (or at least I hope) most people on here think you're a huge douche.

I'm out.

 

[DocJL]

Thanks for the beat down. I'm really put in my place. I'm really upset that I'm not as successful as you- keep telling yourself that, it'll make you grow taller. Hey are you the guy in the article above? The credit card guy? Just wondering...

Completely on topic. My, you defend YOUR "profession" with ferocity but....

Hey, weren't you throwing a colleague (that is right, I consider good dentists colleagues) under the bus in another forum not too long ago. Something about commenting on an endo where a comment shouldn't be made. Maybe he got sued- that would make you happy cause of his inferiority to you right?

Do you do that often? Sh!+ talk other dentist's work. Is that part of your business model? Is that why you are sooooo successful?

Other forum users: watch out for guys like this- they are like an incurable cancer. They don't go away and they'll take you and the profession as a whole down with them.
Again, I know all about guys like you.

BTW- save us your comment about how awful I must've been as a general dentist and how much money you make and how successful you are. Your assumptions are a waste time to read. I stopped commenting because obviously you made your (and my point really) perfectly clear.

And I'm pretty sure (or at least I hope) most people on here think you're a huge douche.

I'm out.

Yep you've got it all figured out. It all comes to you when you put on your tin-foil hat and face North while sitting in your parent's attic.

Since you've read all my prior posts, I'll comment on a couple. The comments on a posted endodontic case were discussed in an open, objective manner. My mistake was not taking into account that the poster was a new forum member - ie. - I made the mistake of posting comments that were more fit for a forum like Dentaltown.com (remember - the forum that "makes you vomit" because lots of successful general dentists post and share cases, reminding you of your abysmal failure in private general practice). Again, on Dentaltown, my comments would have been completely appropriate, as all members are dental professionals. My mistake, as I was certainly not trying to lend ammo to a potential litigator, and I thanked the moderator for pointing that out to me.

If you read another thread I've commented on, you'll also get a bit of insight into my practice philosophy. Where I go against the grain of many other dentists in stating that I would not, and do not charge pts for follow up consults or examinations that are related to any work I have performed. Period. Does this sound like a practitioner who is "all about the money"? I'm sure you will find a way to twist my stance to fit your preconceptions, but as stated, being a good doctor is NOT inversely related to a desire to make a good living and provide well for ones' family.

When it comes to being a successful dentist, you know not of what you speak. And the louder you squawk, the more apparent your abysmal failure as a general dentist becomes clear for all to see. You call making comments about a clinical case "throwing a colleague under the bus" while you have repeatedly and clearly demeaned the entire dental profession. Double standard is your middle name.

BTW - you forgot to tell us if it is public health, teaching, or the military you are planning on going into, as again, making money is in direct conflict with your ethical "portrayal" of yourself as the Mother Theresa of dentists, who has absolutely no interest in financial gain......

and to other forum users: watch out for guys like Canuck. he thinks every general dentist is a stooge who should be limited to "hygiene checks and buccal pits" (his words), and only Master Surgeons like himself, are capable of anything approaching a complex restoration.

 

[CanuckDDS]

Yep you've got it all figured out. It all comes to you when you put on your tin-foil hat and face North while sitting in your parent's attic.

Since you've read all my prior posts, I'll comment on a couple. The comments on a posted endodontic case were discussed in an open, objective manner. My mistake was not taking into account that the poster was a new forum member - ie. - I made the mistake of posting comments that were more fit for a forum like Dentaltown.com (remember - the forum that "makes you vomit" because lots of successful general dentists post and share cases, reminding you of your abysmal failure in private general practice). Again, on Dentaltown, my comments would have been completely appropriate, as all members are dental professionals. My mistake, as I was certainly not trying to lend ammo to a potential litigator, and I thanked the moderator for pointing that out to me.

If you read another thread I've commented on, you'll also get a bit of insight into my practice philosophy. Where I go against the grain of many other dentists in stating that I would not, and do not charge pts for follow up consults or examinations that are related to any work I have performed. Period. Does this sound like a practitioner who is "all about the money"? I'm sure you will find a way to twist my stance to fit your preconceptions, but as stated, being a good doctor is NOT inversely related to a desire to make a good living and provide well for ones' family.

When it comes to being a successful dentist, you know not of what you speak. And the louder you squawk, the more apparent your abysmal failure as a general dentist becomes clear for all to see. You call making comments about a clinical case "throwing a colleague under the bus" while you have repeatedly and clearly demeaned the entire dental profession. Double standard is your middle name.

BTW - you forgot to tell us if it is public health, teaching, or the military you are planning on going into, as again, making money is in direct conflict with your ethical "portrayal" of yourself as the Mother Theresa of dentists, who has absolutely no interest in financial gain......

and to other forum users: watch out for guys like Canuck. he thinks every general dentist is a stooge who should be limited to "hygiene checks and buccal pits" (his words), and only Master Surgeons like himself, are capable of anything approaching a complex restoration.

I'll leave the complex restorations up to you, thanks.

The only demeaning thing to the dental profession is you. Go back to your first comment in this entire thread. I do read the comments made, and I only comment on what I know, I'll leave the assumptions up to you. You seemed to be adept at making them.

Normally when one talks about how "skilled" and "successful" they are, it usually means the exact opposite. I bet you are actually a ****ty dentist, in fact, I'm sure that is why you feel the need to tell people how great you are and how lousy everyone else is. Classic. That is MY ASSUMPTION.

I'm sure you'll have a fabricated/long-winded/used car salesman response. I hope you think people are buying it

Sincerely,
Mother Theresa

PS: so were you the credit card guy?

 

[DocJL]

I'll leave the complex restorations up to you, thanks.

The only demeaning thing to the dental profession is you. Go back to your first comment in this entire thread. I do read the comments made, and I only comment on what I know, I'll leave the assumptions up to you. You seemed to be adept at making them.

Normally when one talks about how "skilled" and "successful" they are, it usually means the exact opposite. I bet you are actually a ****ty dentist, in fact, I'm sure that is why you feel the need to tell people how great you are and how lousy everyone else is. Classic. That is MY ASSUMPTION.

I'm sure you'll have a fabricated/long-winded/used car salesman response. I hope you think people are buying it

Sincerely,
Mother Theresa

PS: so were you the credit card guy?

Here's my first statement in this thread verbatim:

"the hate mail quoted sounds like it was written by a bitter hygienist.

why would anybody but a hygienist take the time to try to elevate the dental hygiene profession in the same rant that they are attacking the dental profession?

on a side note, the letter really hurt my feelings.

in fact, i'm crying.

all the way to the bank. "

(NOTE: the "wink" is often used to denote sarcasm or humor - thought I'd spell that out for you since you don't seem to have the best of either reading or writing skills, as evidenced in your posts - the vocab and structure are reminiscent of my son's 3rd grade assignments)

Yep, that was sooooooooo demeaning to the dental profession (as opposed to your blanket statements that general practice consists solely of "hygiene checks and buccal pits" and your laughter at the use of the terminology "complex restoration" or "complex restorative procedure".

You certainly are the one who is "standing up for their profession" aren't you.


And thanks for the brilliant insight into what constitutes or denotes a "sh=tty dentist" in your experience.

In MY experience, the guys who claim dentistry is "simple", "easy", "requires little or no skill", etc. are the "shi++y dentists". Wait, let me add to the list those who state general dentistry consists of "hygiene checks and buccal pits", and laugh sarcastically at the thought of a lowly general dentist performing complex restorative treatments.

PS - nope I'm not the credit card guy, didn't he say he was worth 4 million? I'm only worth 3.8 million (NOTE: that's the "roll-eyes" for sarcasm)

 

[monreal]

DocJL,

Thank you for the entertainment. I hope you're enjoying this conversation as much as I am. I stopped arguing with the above poo ball way back when he said that no GP should do any ortho treatment. I thought he was just protecting his wife's interest, who is an orthodontist, but as it turned out, he had applied for ortho and got rejected 2-3 times before going for OMFS (prostho/ perio doesn't pay enough, eh?)... Now let's hear more about health care and wealth care.

 

[DocJL]

DocJL,

Thank you for the entertainment. I hope you're enjoying this conversation as much as I am. I stopped arguing with the above poo ball way back when he said that no GP should do any ortho treatment. I thought he was just protecting his wife's interest, who is an orthodontist, but as it turned out, he had applied for ortho and got rejected 2-3 times before going for OMFS (prostho/ perio doesn't pay enough, eh?)... Now let's hear more about health care and wealth care.

So it appears Canuck has been outed as the HYPOCRITE he is.

Here's a cut/paste of his own post:

Canadian Ortho Programs
Has anyone gotten into the University of Toronto or University of Manitoba ortho for 2007?
I'm first on the waitlist and I'm wondering if there is any chance someone will turn down their spot after the match?

I'd love to still have some hope!!!

Thanks.


GEE, how does somebody who is "into it for the health care, and not the wealth care" go from wanting to be an orthodontist to wanting to be an oral surgeon in the space of 1 year (you were asking about and applying to OS the year after ortho rejected you)???

Is is because both specialties are so similar - like perio and OS in terms of dentoalveolar surgery and implants? or ortho and pedo in terms of working on a young pt pool, and managing dental growth and development?

NOPE. the only thing in common that OS and Ortho have is that they are both HIGH PAYING SPECIALTIES. Apparently there is something you love about both specialties, and that would be the potential paychecks

I'm a little surprised you didn't apply for endo too, since it is also one of the most lucrative specialties, but then again, if you couldn't get into ortho you definitely would NOT have gotten into endo (I think you knew that), AND endo requires "good hands" (a notion that you have openly scoffed at).

Yep, you just got in it "for the health care and not the wealth care".

We ALL believe you bro.

You've been outed.

PS - I'm still waiting to hear if it will be public health, teaching, or the military you plan on spending a career of selfless service to others in. Really. And I bet your wife the orthodontist is in one of those career fields too, since I'm sure you could never bear to be with somebody who was in a high paying private practice - or is it only highly paid GENERAL DENTISTS that you find so unpalatable? Yep, and that is because as a general dentist you were a miserable failure. You've been exposed like a radiograph!! "I got into this for the health care, not the wealth care" indeed!!! hahahahahhahaha!!!

 

[GreatOMFSHope]

You think with all your money and skills, you would be out on the lecture circuit, not spending your time trolling through 150 old posts by Canuck looking for ammo. I guess you may have had time to do that in your hotel room after you finished your PFM lecture in Japan.

Hilarious back and forth stuff though. Decent arguments from both sides. I am going into OMFS because: 1. I f'n HATE general dentistry (crowns, restorative, etc.). 2. I like money, I'd like to have money, I'd like to buy stuff with that money.

 

[DocJL]

You think with all your money and skills, you would be out on the lecture circuit, not spending your time trolling through 150 old posts by Canuck looking for ammo. I guess you may have had time to do that in your hotel room after you finished your PFM lecture in Japan.

Hilarious back and forth stuff though. Decent arguments from both sides. I am going into OMFS because: 1. I f'n HATE general dentistry (crowns, restorative, etc.). 2. I like money, I'd like to have money, I'd like to buy stuff with that money.

My man I just had to give a talk in front of my daughter's kindergarten class on "what my parents do". 80 kindergartners.

I printed up some nice large color photos of cases, including some nice gross pictures of carious teeth, etc (those got lots of oooh and aaah from the kids). Not exactly a Powerpoint presentation, but I think I made my daughter proud.

I asked the kids, "do you know what lots of people are afraid of? that's right - going to the dentist, but most people are even MORE afraid of standing up in front of a bunch of people and having to talk about themselves"

Nope, despite being voted "most likely to give our kids a starting check in 20 years" at our last dental school class party, I am quite happy to take care of my medium-ish practice of a few thousand pts (plus I've gotten good at weeding out the jerks and high-maintenance ones, so I actually LIKE most of my pts. And don't kid yourself, do you think that every successful dentist in private practice has aspirations of giving lectures? really?

when does your program start? 4 or 6 year? you pumped? or do you have a bit of an approaching sense of doom? The OMFS residents I worked with in the military were so overworked and beat down, the chief resident actually apologized to us GPR's at the end of the year for being such a bee-otch. Really. She said she used to not be that way but the residency changed her. They were a pretty miserable bunch. It turned me off on doing OMFS in the military.

PS - although the money has been good, my spending habits have not..... the practice is paid for, but still owe a huge chunk on the house, so like most doctors, I'm probably worth less than the guy up the street that owns a gas station. You ever read "the Millionaire Next Door"? Doctors are notorious for spending most of what they make......

PPS - c'mon you gotta admit I've got Canuck up on the ropes.... "in it for the health care, not the wealth care", and he applies for 2 completely unrelated HIGH PAYING specialties. at least give me a little credit....and I had to look after Montreal outed the Canuck-ster (apparently there are others who feel HE is a total douche.........)

PPS - and thanks for the straight up admission about "liking money". Hell we ALL like money! This business about just wanting to go through 8+ years of education and amass a quarter million in debt so that we can "selflessly help our fellow man in need" is for the benefit of the admissions committee. Most days I like my job. Some days I love it, and some days I hate it. But I appreciate the lifestyle it allows me to provide for my family. There I've said it. Now Canuck can further demonize me for "loving money".

 

[GreatOMFSHope]

My man I just had to give a talk in front of my daughter's kindergarten class on "what my parents do". 80 kindergartners.

I printed up some nice large color photos of cases, including some nice gross pictures of carious teeth, etc (those got lots of oooh and aaah from the kids). Not exactly a Powerpoint presentation, but I think I made my daughter proud.

I asked the kids, "do you know what lots of people are afraid of? that's right - going to the dentist, but most people are even MORE afraid of standing up in front of a bunch of people and having to talk about themselves"

Nope, despite being voted "most likely to give our kids a starting check in 20 years" at our last dental school class party, I am quite happy to take care of my medium-ish practice of a few thousand pts (plus I've gotten good at weeding out the jerks and high-maintenance ones, so I actually LIKE most of my pts. And don't kid yourself, do you think that every successful dentist in private practice has aspirations of giving lectures? really?

when does your program start? 4 or 6 year? you pumped? or do you have a bit of an approaching sense of doom? The OMFS residents I worked with in the military were so overworked and beat down, the chief resident actually apologized to us GPR's at the end of the year for being such a bee-otch. Really. She said she used to not be that way but the residency changed her. They were a pretty miserable bunch. It turned me off on doing OMFS in the military.

PS - although the money has been good, my spending habits have not..... the practice is paid for, but still owe a huge chunk on the house, so like most doctors, I'm probably worth less than the guy up the street that owns a gas station. You ever read "the Millionaire Next Door"? Doctors are notorious for spending most of what they make......

PPS - c'mon you gotta admit I've got Canuck up on the ropes.... "in it for the health care, not the wealth care", and he applies for 2 completely unrelated HIGH PAYING specialties. at least give me a little credit....and I had to look after Montreal outed the Canuck-ster (apparently there are others who feel HE is a total douche.........)

PPS - and thanks for the straight up admission about "liking money". Hell we ALL like money! This business about just wanting to go through 8+ years of education and amass a quarter million in debt so that we can "selflessly help our fellow man in need" is for the benefit of the admissions committee. Most days I like my job. Some days I love it, and some days I hate it. But I appreciate the lifestyle it allows me to provide for my family. There I've said it. Now Canuck can further demonize me for "loving money".

Take it easy on Canuck. Yeah, both are very high-paying specialties, but you never know what was the inspiration behind the decision. Maybe he saw how OMFS is Stallone and Ortho is Stepford (some rich, rich, rich people though). And I know people think I'm a douche...in fact, I'm one of them.

Program starts in July. 4-year. Butthole puckering tighter every day at the thought. And not everyone was like your chief in the military. Maybe she was a beeotch because she was just an everyday beeotch.....and in the military.

And good job with the kids. The only thing scarier than a room full of kids is a room full of vomiting zombie kids. Could you even imagine?

 

[1992Corolla]

Who is going to win?

 

[CanuckDDS]

WOW, I'm off the grid to study for an exam for a few days and you guys go off! Crazy.

Well.

I really must apologize I guess. These are the things that I am apologizing for...

1. Way back in post number 49 I made the mistake of standing up for a dental student, whom from his post of course, "obviously doesn't have skill". For this, I am sorry- I wish I never had. Completely off-side by me...


2. Applied to ortho 3x's= FALSE. But I did apply to ortho at least once! You guys are, once again right, ortho has nothing at all in common with OMFS. Orthodontists, in fact, do not have anything to do with treating dentofacial deformities, cleft lip and palate, improvement of form and function- they just throw on some NiTi and watch hopefully, they really are completely polar opposite to OMFSers. I am really sorry that I applied to a different specialty, I may have been the first person to ever do this.


3. I really should not have commented on dentistry. Because, I obviously did not run a successful practice for a number of years- how could I, I'm far too obtuse. Really, the nerve of me? My opinion of general dentists is clearly stated in post number 52. Most of my best friends are dentists, my brother is a dentist (he reads these posts as a guest and really gets a kick out of them!). I am obviously a hypocrite.


4. I am truly sorry that I advocated for humility and condemned those who openly cavort their incredible success and wealth (like the credit card guy). You guys are correct, this behaviour has absolutely nothing to do with the public's INCORRECT and UNFOUNDED perception of dentists/dentistry/dental specialists- that was the point of this thread wasn't it? When dentist's (as a populous) morals and motivation is questioned by the general public, I usually explain that "in every profession, whether it be law, medicine, dentistry or astronomy there is 1% that gets the press and gives the rest of us a bad name." I am sorry that humility is a trait that I value. This is obviously offensive.

(Since you guys are so adept at reading all of my 150 posts, there was a great thread where I respond to some dentist-hating troll. Go back and have a look at that one, the thread is actually pretty funny...)

5. Am I really sorry for my speeling and grammur (that of a grade 3 assignment). Ya, I must get someone to proof-read my posts- good point!

6. I am sorry I am not sleeping right now.



In other words, you guys are right! I am wrong. I am "beat down" and "on the ropes". Literally, and figuratively.


So don't bother responding (I won't be reading it), this is officially my last post- congratulations, I am canceling my account. I've realized I can't make an impression with those who have done nothing but speculate about my lack of skill, knowledge, morals, in addition to my motivation for leaving my successful general dental practice (gasp!) for the 6 years of hell/residency I chose.

Once again, you are right, I admit it- I am a hypocrite. I won't be doing surgery for free until food and shelter become free. I've never had a problem with dentists (or any professional for that matter) making a good living. I just have a problem with flaunting it. That doesn't benefit anyone...


To monreal. I actually knew who you were long before you figured out who I was. In the words of one of your classmates to another one of your classmates..."I wouldn't trust a word that comes out of that guy's mouth". So yes, you did leave a lasting impression- congrats and best of luck.

Hey, I did reach 150 posts. This thread was viewed by ~4400 peeps, good times...
To those of you who PM'd me support (wrt this thread and others), thanks! To those of you who PM'd me questions, I hope my responses helped (I am acutally pretty crappy at checking my in box )



Now, I'm sure you may pick and twist the odd thing out of this post to go off on. Go for it, get it off your chest. It will only be for you to get the last word in, it'll make you feel good. I've already admitted you guys are right.

So, in the words of Fat Mike- so long and thanks for all the shoes!

CanuckDDS

 

[DocJL]

WOW, I'm off the grid to study for an exam for a few days and you guys go off! Crazy.

Well.

I really must apologize I guess. These are the things that I am apologizing for...

1. Way back in post number 49 I made the mistake of standing up for a dental student, whom from his post of course, "obviously doesn't have skill". For this, I am sorry- I wish I never had. Completely off-side by me...


2. Applied to ortho 3x's= FALSE. But I did apply to ortho at least once! You guys are, once again right, ortho has nothing at all in common with OMFS. Orthodontists, in fact, do not have anything to do with treating dentofacial deformities, cleft lip and palate, improvement of form and function- they just throw on some NiTi and watch hopefully, they really are completely polar opposite to OMFSers. I am really sorry that I applied to a different specialty, I may have been the first person to ever do this.


3. I really should not have commented on dentistry. Because, I obviously did not run a successful practice for a number of years- how could I, I'm far too obtuse. Really, the nerve of me? My opinion of general dentists is clearly stated in post number 52. Most of my best friends are dentists, my brother is a dentist (he reads these posts as a guest and really gets a kick out of them!). I am obviously a hypocrite.


4. I am truly sorry that I advocated for humility and condemned those who openly cavort their incredible success and wealth (like the credit card guy). You guys are correct, this behaviour has absolutely nothing to do with the public's INCORRECT and UNFOUNDED perception of dentists/dentistry/dental specialists- that was the point of this thread wasn't it? When dentist's (as a populous) morals and motivation is questioned by the general public, I usually explain that "in every profession, whether it be law, medicine, dentistry or astronomy there is 1% that gets the press and gives the rest of us a bad name." I am sorry that humility is a trait that I value. This is obviously offensive.

(Since you guys are so adept at reading all of my 150 posts, there was a great thread where I respond to some dentist-hating troll. Go back and have a look at that one, the thread is actually pretty funny...)

5. Am I really sorry for my speeling and grammur (that of a grade 3 assignment). Ya, I must get someone to proof-read my posts- good point!

6. I am sorry I am not sleeping right now.



In other words, you guys are right! I am wrong. I am "beat down" and "on the ropes". Literally, and figuratively.


So don't bother responding (I won't be reading it), this is officially my last post- congratulations, I am canceling my account. I've realized I can't make an impression with those who have done nothing but speculate about my lack of skill, knowledge, morals, in addition to my motivation for leaving my successful general dental practice (gasp!) for the 6 years of hell/residency I chose.

Once again, you are right, I admit it- I am a hypocrite. I won't be doing surgery for free until food and shelter become free. I've never had a problem with dentists (or any professional for that matter) making a good living. I just have a problem with flaunting it. That doesn't benefit anyone...


To monreal. I actually knew who you were long before you figured out who I was. In the words of one of your classmates to another one of your classmates..."I wouldn't trust a word that comes out of that guy's mouth". So yes, you did leave a lasting impression- congrats and best of luck.

Hey, I did reach 150 posts. This thread was viewed by ~4400 peeps, good times...
To those of you who PM'd me support (wrt this thread and others), thanks! To those of you who PM'd me questions, I hope my responses helped (I am acutally pretty crappy at checking my in box )



Now, I'm sure you may pick and twist the odd thing out of this post to go off on. Go for it, get it off your chest. It will only be for you to get the last word in, it'll make you feel good. I've already admitted you guys are right.

So, in the words of Fat Mike- so long and thanks for all the shoes!

CanuckDDS

Geez what a frickin' drama queen.

So this is your final swan song, as you fall on your metaphorical sword?

I enjoyed picking apart your emotional posts, which made up in drama what they lacked in essence, style, and facts. I'll refrain from dissecting this "final post" (although your hypocrisy is on full display here) and just bid you farewell.

Apparently you can dish it out but you can't take it, and your tender sensitivities have been irreparably offended.

I'd tell you to MAN UP, but since you "won't be reading this" I guess you're a lost cause.

 

[Aphid]

Ahhhhh.... another FAILED bitter general dentist throwing his profession under the bus.

Sad, really.

Obviously, as you so proudly note, coming from a family of accomplished physicians, you no doubt couldn't get into an MD program and managed to get into a dental school (no doubt an expensive private school with easier admissions - but hey no problem since you were a rich "doctor's kid" and had it all paid for by daddy). You're family must look down apon you as the "underachiever" of the group (a belief which you bolstered by your own derision towards the dental profession), and now you are going back to what, OMFS (where you will need hand skills) or Ortho (where you won't, unless it's a lot more demanding to bond brackets than I've noticed - actually hope it is ortho, since you obviously have poor hand skills, based on your blasting of the notion that they do contribute to being a good dentist - if it's ortho your assistants can do all the work for you) to try to build your self esteem. Certainly not Endo, as endodontist peform what is essentially micro-surgery all day long, and it is established you haven't even figured out that hand skills are an important part of dental practice (no doubt you are "all thumbs").

I guess if I'm clueless in your estimation, I'll just have to learn to live with that - my personal income has been substantially over the 75th percentile for dentist practice owners (all dentists, not just general) for the better part of a decade (based on ADA Surveys of Dental Practice - Income from the Private Practice of Dentistry), so maybe it's not just "hand skills" that I've got a handle on. I never inferred that a dentist with great artistic ability and excellent hand skills alone would be successful. It is only one piece of the puzzle. But it certainly makes practice easier, and makes it easier to perform a wider range of dental procedures well, and thus make more money while you make more pts happy. It is people skills more than anything else which determines if you will do well financially in dentistry.

I put this knowledge out there to demonstrate where I am coming from. And I don't have a problem sharing knowledge or insights I've gained over the years with other dentists. Too many in our profession want to make everything a "big secret" and not offer useful advice or insight to younger docs. It's a shame you pick isolated bits of my posts out of context and use that as a reason to attack me (complete with name-calling, lol).

I also never stated anything about "medical knowledge", other than the fact that the first 6 of 8 years of training for both professions are virtually identical.

And for the record, coming across as a snotty "doctor's kid" has no doubt helped you make tons of money in private practice (or not)

If you were doing well in general practice, the opportunity cost of attending a 3 to 4 year residency would be in the neighborhood of 1.2 to 2 million dollars, or more, so I think we can safely say you were NOT doing well in general practice.

FAIL.

enjoy your residency, you arrogant, bitter failed dentist, and thanks for selling out your profession.

This is a bit much. I understand what the guy is going through. Being a dentist amongst a family of specialist physicians is tough. Dentistry is basically the laughing stock of medicine right now.We had one physican patient at the office today who, after being told that he had an apical abcess, stood up and declared that "there is only one real doctor in this room" and then proceeded to ask the supervising dentist where he did his radiology residency.

We concentrate so much on production and billing, but our salaries are still not comparable to any physican, who don't need to "sell" anything. Here in Canada, Family doctors are offered 350k contracts as soon as they graduate......and new dentists can't even find jobs in the major cities!

 

[SoonToBDDS]

This is a bit much. I understand what the guy is going through. Being a dentist amongst a family of specialist physicians is tough. Dentistry is basically the laughing stock of medicine right now.We had one physican patient at the office today who, after being told that he had an apical abcess, stood up and declared that "there is only one real doctor in this room" and then proceeded to ask the supervising dentist where he did his radiology residency.

We concentrate so much on production and billing, but our salaries are still not comparable to any physican, who don't need to "sell" anything. Here in Canada, Family doctors are offered 350k contracts as soon as they graduate......and new dentists can't even find jobs in the major cities!

Haha. This is funny. This whole thread has gotten too hilarious.
Let’s get some input from a Real Doctor. DocJL, by your many posts on this thread, you seem to know a lot, have a lot of time, and always have to have the last word. Can we get your response to this?

 

[Machiavelliansm]

Haha. This is funny. This whole thread has gotten too hilarious.
Let's get some input from a Real Doctor. DocJL, by your many posts on this thread, you seem to know a lot, have a lot of time, and always have to have the last word. Can we get your response to this?

Looks like Aphid is a troll. Look at his/her post history.

 

[ItsGavinC]

Wow, lots of ridiculousness in this thread. Mostly those that think orthodontists are still making great money these days.

 

[flapaTron]

 

[SoonToBDDS]

Looks like Aphid is a troll. Look at his/her post history.

Yes, Aphid is definitely a Troll. He/she wouldn’t know that when we’re referring to MB2 on this thread, we’re talking about the 4th canal that joins the mesiobuccal canal of the maxillary 1st molar.

Aphid, you need to stop posting your nonsense and make space for the real hero on this thread. DocJL, where are you?

 

[The Dawgfather]

Can someone explain trolling?

 

[SoonToBDDS]

Can someone explain trolling?

John Cryer explains it best on the Conan O'brien Show. Google the video clip.