Psychiatrist thoughts on therapists?

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MustIReallyThough

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General impressions? What have your experiences been like in working with them? Are there any you feel are scientifically competent in their field to warrant your respect (and referrals) at the masters level?

Bit of background:

About to apply to a counseling or MSW masters program. Always dreamed of being a psychologist but after much research I feel like that path is out of reach at 28. Considered medicine, but not really my passion to be honest.

The last two hangups I have are late career burnout concerns and questions about the quality of care I can provide at the masters level. I'm willing to put the time in through personal research and continuing Ed to make sure I'm worth what I bill for clients. But I'm wondering if that's enough?

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The bar is much lower to become a therapist, so from the patient perspective, I feel like there's a lot more less than stellar people to sift through as opposed to psychiatrists (there are still plenty of bad psychiatrists out there - though I feel like these are mostly docs who have trained many years ago).

But on the opposite end there are plenty of master level therapists who are much better at therapy than myself (or many psychiatrists I know).

The path is absolutely not out of reach at 28. I started the path to becoming a psychiatrist after a similar break from undergrad. I'm finishing residency this year. Believe me, I don't think - wow I'm so old, I shouldn't have done that. Quite the opposite.
 
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The bar is much lower to become a therapist, so from the patient perspective, I feel like there's a lot more less than stellar people to sift through as opposed to psychiatrists (there are still plenty of bad psychiatrists out there - though I feel like these are mostly docs who have trained many years ago).

But on the opposite end there are plenty of master level therapists who are much better at therapy than myself (or many psychiatrists I know).

The path is absolutely not out of reach at 28. I became a psychiatrist after a similar break from undergrad. I'm finishing residency this year. Believe me, I don't think - wow I'm so old, I shouldn't have done that. Quite the opposite.
This. I've heard that masters level training is lax from psychologists, psychiatrists, and counselors alike. I guess my question is: does it provide enough of a framework to then learn how to master therapy yourself? I find it to be unethical and unacceptable to not attempt to provide the best services possible.

Ah, I was only speaking about the psychologist path. I do agree I'd be financially fine with psychiatry at this age. But I think I've come to the hard realization that my passion is therapy, not medicine. The financial reality of being a psychologist is more complicated.

I'd need 1-2 years of research experience and/or a research based masters to be competitive for a good, funded PhD program. Meanwhile I could probably both get in and mostly pay for a masters out of pocket now and continue investing afterwards without much lost time. I just can't stomach the former financially...
 
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General impressions? What have your experiences been like in working with them? Are there any you feel are scientifically competent in their field to warrant your respect (and referrals) at the masters level?

Bit of background:

About to apply to a counseling or MSW masters program. Always dreamed of being a psychologist but after much research I feel like that path is out of reach at 28. Considered medicine, but not really my passion to be honest.

The last two hangups I have are late career burnout concerns and questions about the quality of care I can provide at the masters level. I'm willing to put the time in through personal research and continuing Ed to make sure I'm worth what I bill for clients. But I'm wondering if that's enough?
Well you will likely be worth what you bill because the pay scale is not nearly what it should be, unfortunately. Of course many masters level clinicians are excellent therapists and most therapy is being done by them. But the pay is less than half that of a psychologist and you can't demand a lot in private practice either based on the current market.
 
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In my experience no one seems to be able to hire therapists and they are all in high demand and booked out months in advance even if they take cash only
 
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Well you will likely be worth what you bill because the pay scale is not nearly what it should be, unfortunately. Of course many masters level clinicians are excellent therapists and most therapy is being done by them. But the pay is less than half that of a psychologist and you can't demand a lot in private practice either based on the current market.
Can you expand on that? What's the current market like? Seems like too many therapists and not enough psychiatrists.

The pay scale is disheartening and part of the reason I really want to understand realities before I plunge in.
 
In my experience no one seems to be able to hire therapists and they are all in high demand and booked out months in advance even if they take cash only
Really? I've heard that cash only is very hard to swing.
 
In my experience no one seems to be able to hire therapists and they are all in high demand and booked out months in advance even if they take cash only
You aren't wrong, but it hasn't impacted reimubursement for some reason. In the last two years I worked as medical director we were always short several LMHC/LCSW/LMFT/CMHC/MSW positions, and yet the pay range is still in the mid $30s/hour. In the regions I am familiar when masters-level clinicians are doing therapy private practices they are charging about $75/session and I agree they are booked out but I don't believe there has been a huge correction in pay. Of course there are exceptions and for folks with psychodynamic training/credentials or training in more specialized CBT for thinkings like binge eating they can charge more in private practice.
 
Can you expand on that? What's the current market like? Seems like too many therapists and not enough psychiatrists.

The pay scale is disheartening and part of the reason I really want to understand realities before I plunge in.

You will have no trouble finding an employed position, and you could supplement with a private practice a few hours a week and likely do reasonably well, but you aren't going to fill up a cash-only therapy practice charging > $100 hour in the way that may be feasible for a psychologist. Feel free to PM me, happy to help further.
 
You will have no trouble finding an employed position, and you could supplement with a private practice a few hours a week and likely do reasonably well, but you aren't going to fill up a cash-only therapy practice charging > $100 hour in the way that may be feasible for a psychologist. Feel free to PM me, happy to help further.

The range is quite high. Near me, good employed gigs are about $80k + benefits.

There are masters level therapists near me that are mostly full at $160/hr. They aren’t run of the mill therapists. They will have certifications in play therapy, EMDR, etc that sets them apart. They have good people skills and do good work.

Therapists with poor social skills who like to talk a lot about themselves will struggle to fill at $30/hr.

Psychedelic assisted therapists can be $200/hr.

The psychologists aren’t charging much more for therapy.

If interested in testing, go the psychology route. If interested in therapy, I’d go masters level and get some additional certifications over time.
 
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You can do very well as a masters level therapist with business skill. Most successful ones end up opening their practices and supervising others over time
 
The range is quite high. Near me, good employed gigs are about $80k + benefits.

There are masters level therapists near me that are mostly full at $160/hr. They aren’t run of the mill therapists. They will have certifications in play therapy, EMDR, etc that sets them apart. They have good people skills and do good work.

Therapists with poor social skills who like to talk a lot about themselves will struggle to fill at $30/hr.

Psychedelic assisted therapists can be $200/hr.

The psychologists aren’t charging much more for therapy.

If interested in testing, go the psychology route. If interested in therapy, I’d go masters level and get some additional certifications over time.
Right, as with many things you can leverage quality, niche areas of need, special skills, but on average masters-levels clinicians earn much less than psychologists.
 
You aren't wrong, but it hasn't impacted reimubursement for some reason. In the last two years I worked as medical director we were always short several LMHC/LCSW/LMFT/CMHC/MSW positions, and yet the pay range is still in the mid $30s/hour. In the regions I am familiar when masters-level clinicians are doing therapy private practices they are charging about $75/session and I agree they are booked out but I don't believe there has been a huge correction in pay. Of course there are exceptions and for folks with psychodynamic training/credentials or training in more specialized CBT for thinkings like binge eating they can charge more in private practice.
Why do you think they were always short? Mid 30s with benefits doesn't seem like too bad a gig.

$75-$100 is around what I see in my area via psychology today.

I would absolutely love to pursue further training though. Always enjoyed talking classes. I'm glad that option will be there and will reflect reimbursement.
 
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You can do very well as a masters level therapist with business skill. Most successful ones end up opening their practices and supervising others over time
How realistic would it be to expect to open a practice in the current healthcare climate? As I understand it a lot of small practices are being bought up by healthcare corporations. Not sure how this would effect therapist's practices specifically though.
 
I think Master's levels clinicians can be hugely valuable in the right setup. Rather than being a "generalist" therapist (which I think people often think about for less-trained master's level therapists), I think taking a role in a sub-speciality clinic can be a great route. For example, working in a PTSD clinic mastering and doing CPT and PE all day, or working in an OCD clinic doing exposure and response prevention and leading groups, or working on an inpatient unit becoming a resource-connection and family liaison whiz. In each setting, you work collaboratively with psychiatrists and psychologists who take on more of the responsibility for ensuring the diagnosis is correct, and who can step in to help with high-risk situations etc. I believe in these settings that Masters-level therapists can find fulfilling work that provides a lot of value to teams and patients.

Less-attractive options are generally systems-based general outpatient clinics. Too often, therapists there are relegated to performing "therapy" sessions every 1-2 months (if the person shows). I imagine this is a draining way to practice because you will often not see much progress, and sessions are likely to degenerate into venting / life updates rather than actual therapy. In addition, these "generalist" mental health settings are where having thousands of hours across different practice settings and extensive experience working with the full range of diagnoses is most helpful. I think that ideally without that experience it is better to have a psychiatrist confirming the diagnosis and the needed approach and then having the clinician with a more niche-specific skillset carrying out the specific approach.

If you spend years working in many subspecialty clinic settings, you can also translate that into a successful private practice. You can take your extensive experience with a particular therapy approach (with, one hopes, impressive accomplishments along the way like giving lectures, teaching, etc. that will increase confidence in your skills and experience) and, as TexasPhysician mentioned, establish yourself as offering high-quality and often hard to find approaches. For instance, you can leave the system you work for and set up doing CPT, or exposure and response prevention, or CBT for psychosis, or ACT for anxiety, or whatever approach you have learned and patients who are appropriately matched will be very thankful to have you.
 
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How realistic would it be to expect to open a practice in the current healthcare climate? As I understand it a lot of small practices are being bought up by healthcare corporations. Not sure how this would effect therapist's practices specifically though.

I don’t see healthcare corporations buying therapy practices. You should reach out to some therapists for career advise/mentorship
 
Right, as with many things you can leverage quality, niche areas of need, special skills, but on average masters-levels clinicians earn much less than psychologists.

Masters level therapist in my area are $75-90k.
Psychologists are $85-105k.
These aren’t private practice or ideal gigs by any means. This is more of a run of the mill 8-5 gig that you can achieve with less than average talent with little ambition.

What are you seeing?
 
The range is quite high. Near me, good employed gigs are about $80k + benefits.

There are masters level therapists near me that are mostly full at $160/hr. They aren’t run of the mill therapists. They will have certifications in play therapy, EMDR, etc that sets them apart. They have good people skills and do good work.

Therapists with poor social skills who like to talk a lot about themselves will struggle to fill at $30/hr.

Psychedelic assisted therapists can be $200/hr.

The psychologists aren’t charging much more for therapy.

If interested in testing, go the psychology route. If interested in therapy, I’d go masters level and get some additional certifications over time.
Fascinating! I'd love to explore these avenues. So as a LMHC or LCSW I'd be able to go after pretty much any certification out there relating to therapy?
 
I think Master's levels clinicians can be hugely valuable in the right setup. Rather than being a "generalist" therapist (which I think people often think about for less-trained master's level therapists), I think taking a role in a sub-speciality clinic can be a great route. For example, working in a PTSD clinic mastering and doing CPT and PE all day, or working in an OCD clinic doing exposure and response prevention and leading groups, or working on an inpatient unit becoming a resource-connection and family liaison whiz. In each setting, you work collaboratively with psychiatrists and psychologists who take on more of the responsibility for ensuring the diagnosis is correct, and who can step in to help with high-risk situations etc. I believe in these settings that Masters-level therapists can find fulfilling work that provides a lot of value to teams and patients.

Less-attractive options are generally systems-based general outpatient clinics. Too often, therapists there are relegated to performing "therapy" sessions every 1-2 months (if the person shows). I imagine this is a draining way to practice because you will often not see much progress, and sessions are likely to degenerate into venting / life updates rather than actual therapy. In addition, these "generalist" mental health settings are where having thousands of hours across different practice settings and extensive experience working with the full range of diagnoses is most helpful. I think that ideally without that experience it is better to have a psychiatrist confirming the diagnosis and the needed approach and then having the clinician with a more niche-specific skillset carrying out the specific approach.

If you spend years working in many subspecialty clinic settings, you can also translate that into a successful private practice. You can take your extensive experience with a particular therapy approach (with, one hopes, impressive accomplishments along the way like giving lectures, teaching, etc. that will increase confidence in your skills and experience) and, as TexasPhysician mentioned, establish yourself as offering high-quality and often hard to find approaches. For instance, you can leave the system you work for and set up doing CPT, or exposure and response prevention, or CBT for psychosis, or ACT for anxiety, or whatever approach you have learned and patients who are appropriately matched will be very thankful to have you.
This is really encouraging! I would love to work in these varied roles and hone specific therapy modalities.

Do you think masters level folks are equipped enough to master all these different types of therapy? Like not just achieving competentcy, but understanding the psychological science behind the therapy and why it works?
 
Masters level therapist in my area are $75-90k.
Psychologists are $85-105k.
These aren’t private practice or ideal gigs by any means. This is more of a run of the mill 8-5 gig that you can achieve with less than average talent with little ambition.

What are you seeing?
Yes unless they manage other therapists. I have seen them hire nps also for prescriptions.

Easier to fill a therapists schedule as they see much fewer patients as the see people for 50 minutes each

Many of the good psychologists I work with have tried cash only but have relented and take insurance now as they couldn't full their practice
 
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The range is quite high. Near me, good employed gigs are about $80k + benefits.

There are masters level therapists near me that are mostly full at $160/hr. They aren’t run of the mill therapists. They will have certifications in play therapy, EMDR, etc that sets them apart. They have good people skills and do good work.

Therapists with poor social skills who like to talk a lot about themselves will struggle to fill at $30/hr.

Psychedelic assisted therapists can be $200/hr.

The psychologists aren’t charging much more for therapy.

If interested in testing, go the psychology route. If interested in therapy, I’d go masters level and get some additional certifications over time.
Indeed.com has the average social worker salary at $60k and psychologist at $94k. I think these could be low averages but I dont see that the error wouldn't be in the same direction for both. At our system the difference is about $20 an hour more for psychologists.
 
Indeed.com has the average social worker salary at $60k and psychologist at $94k. I think these could be low averages but I dont see that the error wouldn't be in the same direction for both. At our system the difference is about $20 an hour more for psychologists.

Back when I was in hospital settings, psychologists who did therapy were at about 110k, give or take, and midlevel therapists were at around 60. Non-coincidentally, they started replacing every therapist position with only midlevels.
 
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Back when I was in hospital settings, psychologists who did therapy were at about 110k, give or take, and midlevel therapists were at around 60. Non-coincidentally, they started replacing every therapist position with only midlevels.
Right, this is the magnitude of the pay gap that is reflected in my experience.
 
Right, this is the magnitude of the pay gap that is reflected in my experience.

I don't know exactly what the difference is for private practice, as I'm only privy to the figures for psychologists these days, but psychologists here aren't having any issues filling their schedules with therapy patients.
 
You have to remember that most social workers are not LCSW who do therapy
 
This is really encouraging! I would love to work in these varied roles and hone specific therapy modalities.

Do you think masters level folks are equipped enough to master all these different types of therapy? Like not just achieving competentcy, but understanding the psychological science behind the therapy and why it works?

I think masters level therapists can for sure understand the principles behind various schools of therapy. Often, they are quite simple. For example, the most effective treatment of specific phobia is exposure therapy. Exposure under controlled conditions allows the person to adapt to the feared stimulus and eventually decrease the response until, over time, the fear response is extinguished or seriously diminished. The ideas behind the treatment are very simple, the real skill needed is being able to effectively connect with a patient and guide them through an uncomfortable treatment protocol in a way that works, while also trouble-shooting when/why things are not working.

In terms of understanding the literature / research base, that will be more difficult as a masters-level therapist and will require some trust in the conclusions of the researchers. Honestly though, even as a doctoral-level provider there is a fair amount of trust when reading and interpreting the literature. For example, if someone performs a meta-analysis I can understand what the effect size means, but I can't calculate it on my own and might easily miss if statistical methods were mis-applied. I think better understanding research methods is a major emphasis of psychology training (and to a lesser extent psychiatry), but is not essential if you are happy being a front-line clinician.
 
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There is a huge variation in the training of masters levels therapists (not to mention differences between LCSWs, LMFTs and LPCCs or whatever alphabet soup they are in your particular state). That said, there is also huge variation in training of doctoral psychologists (particularly with the PsyD programs and the non-APA accredited programs) and even psychiatrists. Ultimately, you are responsible for what you know and the quality of care you provide. I was asked to supervise students from the local master's level therapy program and interviewed several and was not impressed with their training. That does not mean they can't become outstanding therapists with good supervision and cases. The challenge is securing that experience. Many students and interns/associates end up doing case management or working with totally unsuitable patients in settings where they don't get to do proper therapy and yet this counts to their hours for licensure.

There are certainly excellent masters level therapists, but in general I am very wary of them because I have seen many patients who have been harmed by masters level therapists. In my area, they are all into EMDR, brainspotting, IFS and other somatic therapies. Some of the therapists are doing tarot readings with their clients and billing it as therapy. Others integrate psychic medium services in their practice. Past life regression and spirit release therapy have largely gone out of fashion but there are still some in my area who offer them to my patients. I find it hard to believe that these therapies are actually in high demand from patients or referring physicians. If you are well trained in things like CBTi, ERP, CPT, PE, ACT, IPT, DBT, MBCT, MBT, schema therapy, psychoanalytic psychotherapy, then I will refer to you. If you peddle quackery like many/most of the therapists around here, I won't accept your clients in my practice, and I won't refer to you. Not surprisingly the masters level therapists in my area seem to prefer referring to NPs than psychiatrists.

I am in a HCOL area and have had several patients who are masters level therapists. One of them has done v well for themselves with a niche, charges $250/hr and is more than full (20 hours is considered full time for therapists in PP and they do 28 clinical hours). The ones that do voodoo and aren't very good seem to struggle to fill and take a lot of sliding scale, panel with insurance or join Alma or Headway etc.

I'm doing a therapy training course with an LCSW and he charges up to $350/hr for individual therapy so if you have expertise and are in a major metropolitan area, you can potentially do well for yourself. This is of course on the higher end.

The hospital program I used to work in had an LMFT in a quasi-leadership role and they made over 190k in his last yr working there along with excellent benefits (and they did very little). This was more than the psychologists (who you can imagine weren’t happy about it) and not much less than what I was paid as a psychiatrist. The director of the IOP/PHP program at the hospital was an LMFT and made a little under 170k in their last yr working there. Of course there are many more therapist jobs making $30-40/hr but giving a sense of the higher end opportunities in my area.

Remember that the 3 most important aspects of being a therapist in terms of effectiveness are empathy, genuineness, and expertise. The first two are things that one must naturally have (though they can be finessed with training). The latter is something that can be taught by taking on cases under supervision with skilled therapists who make sure you are actually providing a treatment that works in an authentic way with a strong therapeutic alliance. I am not aware of any good evidence that PhD/PsyD or MD psychotherapists are more effective than master's level therapists at providing evidenced based psychotherapies. It just happens that masters level therapists are more likely to offer pseudoscience.
 
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General impressions? What have your experiences been like in working with them? Are there any you feel are scientifically competent in their field to warrant your respect (and referrals) at the masters level?

They suck. That's my impression. Every skilled therapist I've met are either PhDs or psychiatrists. The best therapists I've met are psychiatrists, bar none.

The utility of a masters level "therapist" is in serving as a supportive person, employed within a psychiatry clinic, to whom patients can talk. But take heart, because most PhDs and psychiatrists also suck at therapy, to a lesser extent. And every independent therapist (regardless of masters or PhD) in my area is booked for months.

Being a skilled therapist requires a combination of talent plus intensive supervision from a good supervisor, which is the limiting factor. An average psychiatry training program, that has an annual budget of millions of dollars, still has a difficult time retaining adequate therapy supervision. I can only imagine what the level of supervision of a random masters program can provide. For perspective, I am speaking as someone who received weekly supervision for 4 years, including 3 hours weekly supervision in a single year with someone whose therapy patients fly in from all over the country and whom I could never afford.
 
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They suck. That's my impression. Every skilled therapist I've met are either PhDs or psychiatrists. The best therapists I've met are psychiatrists, bar none.

The utility of a masters level "therapist" is in serving as a supportive person, employed within a psychiatry clinic, to whom patients can talk. But take heart, because most PhDs and psychiatrists also suck at therapy, to a lesser extent. And every independent therapist (regardless of masters or PhD) in my area is booked for months.

Being a skilled therapist requires a combination of talent plus intensive supervision from a good supervisor, which is the limiting factor. An average psychiatry training program, that has an annual budget of millions of dollars, still has a difficult time retaining adequate therapy supervision. I can only imagine what the level of supervision of a random masters program can provide. For perspective, I am speaking as someone who received weekly supervision for 4 years, including 3 hours weekly supervision in a single year with someone whose therapy patients fly in from all over the country and whom I could never afford.
Interesting the best therapists you’ve encountered are psychiatrists, I wonder why that is?
 
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They suck. That's my impression. Every skilled therapist I've met are either PhDs or psychiatrists. The best therapists I've met are psychiatrists, bar none.
Did you train at an academic or community program? The academic PhD psychologists I had the chance to train with that were specialized in an area they did research in were also absolutely stellar clinicians. Like so good that if I had problems in the future that fell into their domain I wish they would care for me or my family. The best dynamic therapists I've met were psychiatrists but I think every other more modern evidenced based therapy style I saw better practiced by PhD psychologists.
 
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Did you train at an academic or community program? The academic PhD psychologists I had the chance to train with that were specialized in an area they did research in were also absolutely stellar clinicians. Like so good that if I had problems in the future that fell into their domain I wish they would care for me or my family. The best dynamic therapists I've met were psychiatrists but I think every other more modern evidenced based therapy style I saw better practiced by PhD psychologists.
I agree with this exactly as you have described. It is disappointing that dynamic training has been de-emphasized as much. I notice when I present dynamic formulations during rounds it is increasingly a one way conversation even though it is the lens that often best helps understands the problem behaviors that distinguish the patient from anyone else with the same diagnosis.
 
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There is a huge variation in the training of masters levels therapists (not to mention differences between LCSWs, LMFTs and LPCCs or whatever alphabet soup they are in your particular state). That said, there is also huge variation in training of doctoral psychologists (particularly with the PsyD programs and the non-APA accredited programs) and even psychiatrists. Ultimately, you are responsible for what you know and the quality of care you provide. I was asked to supervise students from the local master's level therapy program and interviewed several and was not impressed with their training. That does not mean they can't become outstanding therapists with good supervision and cases. The challenge is securing that experience. Many students and interns/associates end up doing case management or working with totally unsuitable patients in settings where they don't get to do proper therapy and yet this counts to their hours for licensure.

There are certainly excellent masters level therapists, but in general I am very wary of them because I have seen many patients who have been harmed by masters level therapists. In my area, they are all into EMDR, brainspotting, IFS and other somatic therapies. Some of the therapists are doing tarot readings with their clients and billing it as therapy. Others integrate psychic medium services in their practice. Past life regression and spirit release therapy have largely gone out of fashion but there are still some in my area who offer them to my patients. I find it hard to believe that these therapies are actually in high demand from patients or referring physicians. If you are well trained in things like CBTi, ERP, CPT, PE, ACT, IPT, DBT, MBCT, MBT, schema therapy, psychoanalytic psychotherapy, then I will refer to you. If you peddle quackery like many/most of the therapists around here, I won't accept your clients in my practice, and I won't refer to you. Not surprisingly the masters level therapists in my area seem to prefer referring to NPs than psychiatrists.

I am in a HCOL area and have had several patients who are masters level therapists. One of them has done v well for themselves with a niche, charges $250/hr and is more than full (20 hours is considered full time for therapists in PP and they do 28 clinical hours). The ones that do voodoo and aren't very good seem to struggle to fill and take a lot of sliding scale, panel with insurance or join Alma or Headway etc.

I'm doing a therapy training course with an LCSW and he charges up to $350/hr for individual therapy so if you have expertise and are in a major metropolitan area, you can potentially do well for yourself. This is of course on the higher end.

The hospital program I used to work in had an LMFT in a quasi-leadership role and they made over 190k in his last yr working there along with excellent benefits (and they did very little). This was more than the psychologists (who you can imagine weren’t happy about it) and not much less than what I was paid as a psychiatrist. The director of the IOP/PHP program at the hospital was an LMFT and made a little under 170k in their last yr working there. Of course there are many more therapist jobs making $30-40/hr but giving a sense of the higher end opportunities in my area.

Remember that the 3 most important aspects of being a therapist in terms of effectiveness are empathy, genuineness, and expertise. The first two are things that one must naturally have (though they can be finessed with training). The latter is something that can be taught by taking on cases under supervision with skilled therapists who make sure you are actually providing a treatment that works in an authentic way with a strong therapeutic alliance. I am not aware of any good evidence that PhD/PsyD or MD psychotherapists are more effective than master's level therapists at providing evidenced based psychotherapies. It just happens that masters level therapists are more likely to offer pseudoscience.
One pcp at the hospital said I charge too much. I then showed him how much his clinic charges for an initial appt. At least twice as much as I do. He didn't write back to that. Many Employed docs don't know this info.
 
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The OP's question is a bit weird. I've met great therapists and horrible therapists. I would strongly recommend the LCSW route. I think it can open a lot more opportunities than a MFT or LPC. I've got to say...I really disagree with the best therapists I know being psychiatrists. I've definitely had the opposite experience. Psychologists, in general, have been "the best," but I'm not 100% sure what that means. I've definitely met better social workers than the worst psychologists I know. The vast majority of psychiatrists I know (from many and varied institutions) are neither interested, nor particularly good at formal talk therapy of any sort.
 
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General impressions? What have your experiences been like in working with them? Are there any you feel are scientifically competent in their field to warrant your respect (and referrals) at the masters level?

Bit of background:

About to apply to a counseling or MSW masters program. Always dreamed of being a psychologist but after much research I feel like that path is out of reach at 28. Considered medicine, but not really my passion to be honest.

The last two hangups I have are late career burnout concerns and questions about the quality of care I can provide at the masters level. I'm willing to put the time in through personal research and continuing Ed to make sure I'm worth what I bill for clients. But I'm wondering if that's enough?

Very interesting field (therapy is my favorite part of psychiatry).

Can make a big impact on people's lives.

A problem is that the quality variance is massive.
 
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Did you train at an academic or community program? The academic PhD psychologists I had the chance to train with that were specialized in an area they did research in were also absolutely stellar clinicians. Like so good that if I had problems in the future that fell into their domain I wish they would care for me or my family. The best dynamic therapists I've met were psychiatrists but I think every other more modern evidenced based therapy style I saw better practiced by PhD psychologists.
So say I wanted this level of expertise. Completely out of a desire to be of better help to clients and provide evidence based treatment then anything related to an academic career. What I'm hearing is that it's possible to achieve this at the masters level? But that good supervision is key and will definitely need to be sought out outside of the degree. I'd also probably need to be well versed in the research literature like a psychologist.
 
So say I wanted this level of expertise. Completely out of a desire to be of better help to clients and provide evidence based treatment then anything related to an academic career. What I'm hearing is that it's possible to achieve this at the masters level? But that good supervision is key and will definitely need to be sought out outside of the degree. I'd also probably need to be well versed in the research literature like a psychologist.
There is a difference between knowing and remembering literature, vs. being able to properly evaluate the literature. The former is why people think that donepezil works for dementia. The latter is why neuropsychologists know that it does **** all for almost every facet of dementia. It is hard to get to that level of evaluative expertise without a good amount of training in statistics and psychometrics.
 
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So say I wanted this level of expertise. Completely out of a desire to be of better help to clients and provide evidence based treatment then anything related to an academic career. What I'm hearing is that it's possible to achieve this at the masters level? But that good supervision is key and will definitely need to be sought out outside of the degree. I'd also probably need to be well versed in the research literature like a psychologist.

I think that's pretty accurate. There are some master's level clinicians providing fantastic therapy out there. I'm not sure where they learned it though, and it seems like they are vastly outnumbered by the ones providing woo or just no more than a sympathetic ear.

I think if you want to be assured of solid psychotherapy training, psychology PhD is your best bet. If you can't commit to that pathway (which would be understandable) then yes, LCSW with additional trainings to solidify your grasp of evidence -based psychotherapies.

This route won't give you the background to evaluate research literature, but I'm not sure that's critical to your ability to provide good therapy. However, it might be relevant for helping you identify which trainings will teach you useful interventions and which will teach you woo. You might have to be careful about that.
 
I think one of the hardest things to evaluate in psychotherapists is process. The degree of subtlety is a mark of the skill.

It is easy to read a manual, hit the talking points, and claim to be evidence based.
A skilled psychotherapist will subtly reward desired expressions before you realize what's happening, or make the history taking seem like a natural conversation.

It's the difference between a print advertisement that says, "great deal", and the car dealer that tries to talk you out of buying until you are ready.
 
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This route won't give you the background to evaluate research literature, but I'm not sure that's critical to your ability to provide good therapy. However, it might be relevant for helping you identify which trainings will teach you useful interventions and which will teach you woo. You might have to be careful about that.

The only issue though is that many master's level trainees are taught to believe that it is well within their power and expertise to choose their own theoretical orientation, but are not given the necessary training to evaluate the literature to make such a decision about what treatments are appropriate for what patients. With this, in addition to a low bar to enter the profession, it's easy to see why so many people end up choosing quackery.
 
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There are masters level therapists near me that are mostly full at $160/hr. They aren’t run of the mill therapists. They will have certifications in play therapy, EMDR, etc that sets them apart. They have good people skills and do good work
You do know EMDR is psuedoscience glommed on to an EBP (PE) and peddled for an inflated certificate price, right?
 
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The only issue though is that many master's level trainees are taught to believe that it is well within their power and expertise to choose their own theoretical orientation, but are not given the necessary training to evaluate the literature to make such a decision about what treatments are appropriate for what patients. With this, in addition to a low bar to enter the profession, it's easy to see why so many people end up choosing quackery.
I see what you and WisNeuro mean. What are solutions? Is a PhD the only way to learn how to effectively evaluate research literature?

I would love to pursue the psychologist path but don't really see a good way. My local uni doesn't even offer a masters in clinical psychology. Which I think I'd need to be competitive for PhD apps. My only option would be to do an online MS, which doesn't seem to be held in high regard at all. And will almost certainly not be licensable.

It just seems like the LPC or LCSW is about the only option that makes sense. Perhaps after that a PhD in counseling or social work? Or an online MS in psych + LPC/LCSW?
 
I see what you and WisNeuro mean. What are solutions? Is a PhD the only way to learn how to effectively evaluate research literature?

I would love to pursue the psychologist path but don't really see a good way. My local uni doesn't even offer a masters in clinical psychology. Which I think I'd need to be competitive for PhD apps. My only option would be to do an online MS, which doesn't seem to be held in high regard at all. And will almost certainly not be licensable.

It just seems like the LPC or LCSW is about the only option that makes sense. Perhaps after that a PhD in counseling or social work? Or an online MS in psych + LPC/LCSW?

Unless there is a significant research component, masters degrees do not help with competitiveness, in most circumstances. Most people are matriculated into PhD programs without masters degrees.
 
I see what you and WisNeuro mean. What are solutions? Is a PhD the only way to learn how to effectively evaluate research literature?

I would love to pursue the psychologist path but don't really see a good way. My local uni doesn't even offer a masters in clinical psychology. Which I think I'd need to be competitive for PhD apps. My only option would be to do an online MS, which doesn't seem to be held in high regard at all. And will almost certainly not be licensable.

It just seems like the LPC or LCSW is about the only option that makes sense. Perhaps after that a PhD in counseling or social work? Or an online MS in psych + LPC/LCSW?

Counseling and social work have their own master's degrees that aren't necessarily psych degrees. You don't need to become a psychologist if your end goal is to be a therapist. You'd be a more informed (and probably better paid) therapist if you were a psychologist, but there are other paths up the mountain. If you want to be a good therapist, it's fine to accomplish this goal with a master's degree provided you are scrupulous about the training you receive. Master's programs vary greatly in size and quality so pick a good one, but generally I think the big take away here might be to trust the evidence and know what you don't know.
 
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This is a very interesting thread, and I can relate to OP's desire to deliver the highest-possible care while still being an expert in the related fields.

Every path has sacrifices to make, though PhD/PsyD seems the most balanced.

For me though, I can't imagine myself NOT being an expert in the medical side of things, and yes as a LPC/LCSW you can self-study but it won't carry the same weight as being a physician.

I'd rather be 43-45 as a freshly minted attending and spend another ~X years getting extra training in psychotherapy, even if it means getting a supplemental degree or whatever.

But all of this comes at a cost of just doing a Master level when you could have ~5 years more experience of talk therapy, but then there is the argument that the medical and research training could make you a better therapist (all things equal supervision wise, which they are not).
 
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Counseling and social work have their own master's degrees that aren't necessarily psych degrees. You don't need to become a psychologist if your end goal is to be a therapist. You'd be a more informed (and probably better paid) therapist if you were a psychologist, but there are other paths up the mountain. If you want to be a good therapist, it's fine to accomplish this goal with a master's degree provided you are scrupulous about the training you receive. Master's programs vary greatly in size and quality so pick a good one, but generally I think the big take away here might be to trust the evidence and know what you don't know.
As in trust whatever research conclusions are reached? And be honest with myself if something flies over my head?

Sounds good to me. And I'll definitely pursue as much continuing education as I can
 
This is a very interesting thread, and I can relate to OP's desire to deliver the highest-possible care while still being an expert in the related fields.

Every path has sacrifices to make, though PhD/PsyD seems the most balanced.

For me though, I can't imagine myself NOT being an expert in the medical side of things, and yes as a LPC/LCSW you can self-study but it won't carry the same weight as being a physician.

I'd rather be 43-45 as a freshly minted attending and spend another ~X years getting extra training in psychotherapy, even if it means getting a supplemental degree or whatever.

But all of this comes at a cost of just doing a Master level when you could have ~5 years more experience of talk therapy, but then there is the argument that the medical and research training could make you a better therapist (all things equal supervision wise, which they are not).
Pretty complex question isn't it? Still trying to wrap my head around it all.

I faintly recall a thread posted many years back where a psychologist argued that masters therapists tend to be more skilled at therapy simply because they tend to focus on it specifically. I definitely see the importance of having the ability to evaluate research though. And as others have said supervision seems key and would no doubt be better on the psychology side. But I wonder if a LCSW who was proactive about paying for good supervision even after they were fully licensed would make up for that lack of research experience?

Would it be totally ridiculous to get certified as a LCSW then do a research based masters in psychology on the side afterwards? So one would have that exposure to academia? I've seen folks who were licensed as both LCSWs and PsyDs for some reason. Always wondered what the logic behind that was
 
Most therapists I've seen don't have a fax. This really pisses me off. Why? Cause I can't send the person records nor will the therapist provide me with records when asked. Some therapists asked me to e-mail records despite that this is a HIPAA violation. I tell the therapist, "hey man get with the 1970s. Faxes aren't new, e-mailing patient records is illegal unless its a HIPAA secure e-mail, and you can get an online office fax program for cheap."

Unfortunately from my experience about 90% of the therapists in my city don't have a fax. (Off on a tangent over 80% of the time my patient or I request records from another medical institution we're told on the phone they'll send it to us and they don't send it to us).

Most don't listen to me.

The few therapists that do have a fax have been great. We send each other our records and we're better on top of understanding each other. IMHO and I don't think this is being selfish, the need for continuity of care should make having a fax just like being available by phone the standard of care. Faxes should be part of a minimum just like having to write a frakking note is part of a minimum requirement.

Aside from this therapists run the gamut. There's so many different types of psychotherapy. So the first thing is the patient should have the right therapist for their pathology. Like a good psychiatrist, IMHO a good therapist will within 3 visits identify the core and priority problems and state upfront if they can handle it. I've seen some patients see a therapist for literally months even years and not get better. Same with psychiatrists. When the patient asks why they're not better they're told some Freudian/Confucian mumbo jumbo "what is better? How do you really know you really exist" bull$hit, or the patient doesn't know the provider is full of it cause they don't know what is good care vs bad care.

I tell my patients upfront if 1-the other therapist isn't communicating with me. Several don't call me back or provide records. EFF them. I'm not going to defend this lack of continuity of care or defend these people. I'm not going to histrionically exaggerate it either. I just tell the patient upfront in a matter-of-fact manner I tried to communicate with them, show my attempts (e.g. faxes, phone calls) and that they didn't respond and I will give up after 3 attempts, and it's up to the patient to either accept this, demand better from their therapist, or get a new one. I'm not the therapist's boss. 2-Tell my patients they deserve to know what the therapist thinks about the patient's case and that the therapist should have at least 3 visits. 3-In the therapist's defense I tell the patient that psychotherapy can be subjective and it's possible for a therapist to objectively do what is considered a good professional job but for whatever reason the patient themselves might not be fair or doing their end. E.g. I've seen some patients not like a therapist because "he looks like my Dad. I hate my Dad," or "I don't want a therapist that's younger than me."


Now all this this said there's some great therapists out there. Just like psychiatrists there's bad ones out there too. Refer to the good ones and refer to the ones that specialize in what your patient needs.
 
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Most therapists I've seen don't have a fax. This really pisses me off. Why? Cause I can't send the person records nor will the therapist provide me with records when asked. Some therapists asked me to e-mail records despite that this is a HIPAA violation. I tell the therapist, "hey man get with the 1970s. Faxes aren't new, e-mailing patient records is illegal unless its a HIPAA secure e-mail, and you can get an online office fax program for cheap."

Unfortunately from my experience about 90% of the therapists in my city don't have a fax. (Off on a tangent over 80% of the time my patient or I request records from another medical institution we're told on the phone they'll send it to us and they don't send it to us).

Most don't listen to me.

The few therapists that do have a fax have been great. We send each other our records and we're better on top of understanding each other. IMHO and I don't think this is being selfish, the need for continuity of care should make having a fax just like being available by phone the standard of care. Faxes should be part of a minimum just like having to write a frakking note is part of a minimum requirement.

Aside from this therapists run the gamut. There's so many different types of psychotherapy. So the first thing is the patient should have the right therapist for their pathology. Like a good psychiatrist, IMHO a good therapist will within 3 visits identify the core and priority problems and state upfront if they can handle it. I've seen some patients see a therapist for literally months even years and not get better. Same with psychiatrists. When the patient asks why they're not better they're told some Freudian/Confucian mumbo jumbo "what is better? How do you really know you really exist" bull$hit, or the patient doesn't know the provider is full of it cause they don't know what is good care vs bad care.

I tell my patients upfront if 1-the other therapist isn't communicating with me. Several don't call me back or provide records. EFF them. I'm not going to defend this lack of continuity of care or defend these people. I'm not going to histrionically exaggerate it either. I just tell the patient upfront in a matter-of-fact manner I tried to communicate with them, show my attempts (e.g. faxes, phone calls) and that they didn't respond and I will give up after 3 attempts, and it's up to the patient to either accept this, demand better from their therapist, or get a new one. I'm not the therapist's boss. 2-Tell my patients they deserve to know what the therapist thinks about the patient's case and that the therapist should have at least 3 visits. 3-In the therapist's defense I tell the patient that psychotherapy can be subjective and it's possible for a therapist to objectively do what is considered a good professional job but for whatever reason the patient themselves might not be fair or doing their end. E.g. I've seen some patients not like a therapist because "he looks like my Dad. I hate my Dad," or "I don't want a therapist that's younger than me."


Now all this this said there's some great therapists out there. Just like psychiatrists there's bad ones out there too. Refer to the good ones and refer to the ones that specialize in what your patient needs.
Steps to a fulfilling career:

A: Attain fax machine

B: Prosper

Really though, I definitely see your points. It's surprising to me that record sharing is that much of a problem. Seems like it'd be pretty standard.
 
In every area I worked in getting records was not reliable or expected to happen easily. Whether it was NJ, NY PA, KY, OH, or Missouri. I've worked in over 20 hospitals. Every single one of them this was a problem.

Every single medical records place had someone who worked there who didn't care, you could tell didn't like their job, was massively overweight, had no accountability if they didn't do their work, and watched what I call "unemployment TV" on a small TV on their desk (E.g. soap operas, Divorce Court, Jerry Springer, Price is Right and commercials for various hair salons). When you asked them to do their jobs they'd say they'd send out the records and over 75% they ignored your request.
 
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