Psych salary...

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
Mad Jack said:
Most people in psych aren't exactly jumping at the chance to work behind closed doors one-on-one with unrestrained murderers that are often trying to get drugs from them or have extremely serious psychiatric issues. Here's a fairly typical example:

http://jobs.spb.ca.gov/wvpos/more_info.cfm?recno=529288

Starting pay without OT is $239,340 - $287,592. That's not bad at all, and it's a short drive from LA.
Click to expand...

Better than working a county hospital with guards armed with walkie talkies...
http://www.jsonline.com/watchdog/wa...ntal-health-complex-b9916809z1-208604991.html
Members don't see this ad.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Speaking of psych salaries, just spoke to a resident today who knows of a recent grad who is covering one day a week at a private practice. She gets paid 50K a year to work one 8 hour day a week at this place. (She's pregnant with another child at home so it makes sense for her.)

I love how in Psychiatry you can slice and dice any work schedule you want. What a luxury.
 
notdeadyet said:
Not in California. The if-you-have-a-pulse applies mostly to states that aren't paying California money.

To negotiate higher wages or get hired at places within less than 90 minutes of what most folks would consider not pretty awful places to live, you are looking at pretty competitive hires. The last three psychiatrists I know hired at San Quentin all had fellowships and good experience under their belt.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

This is true. The brief stint I had in prison was surprising. The quality of california psychiatrists is very good. The care provided has been "handcuffed" so there a lot of limitations. However there were a decent number of chief residents, people with very good training overall.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
vanfanal said:
What is it that MacdonalTriad always says....something about living below something? Haha.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/glob...sional-couple-with-five-kids/article22496585/
Click to expand...

I can't believe what I'm reading...

Oh well. Just out of curiosity, it sounds like one of the best things Psych has is the flexibility with how much you want to work. Being able to work more or less sounds like a very easy thing to do. I know some psychiatrists (maybe its common, not sure) who will work an extra half day on Saturdays and that is great for them. It is also sounds like you can also work 1, 2, days if you wanted to? How does this work? This sounds great. Are there other specialties that also have this luxury?
 
My female friends I did residency with mostly work part time. They work for a private practice or local CMHC as contract doctors (no benefits) and are paid by the hour. It just depends on where you live and what the local market calls for.
 
Mad Jack said:
That poor couple, barely scraping by as their five kids go to private school and they build a 1.1 million dollar home with enough room to house their live-in nanny.

As a medical student I have more savings and more cash in the bank than them, wtf.
Click to expand...
It really is absolutely pathetic.
 
F0nzie said:
Winning!
Click to expand...
I think the Visual helps.
charlie-sheen-motivational-poster.gif
 
  • Like
Reactions: 4 users
I know it may be a tough question to answer, but how common are salaries of 250k+? I don't think I am the academic type so I am talking group or solo PP. I know there is a lot of discussion of many psychiatrists working around or even less than 40 hours/week but I think I will likely be more of a 50 hour/week guy. The flexibility of the specialty is great but I am just wondering, from different experiences, how common these actually are. It seems there are plenty of jobs greater than, for example the Medscape averages, but I am curious about how realistic these jobs being available to most graduating residents actually are.
 
FranzLO said:
I know it may be a tough question to answer, but how common are salaries of 250k+? I don't think I am the academic type so I am talking group or solo PP. I know there is a lot of discussion of many psychiatrists working around or even less than 40 hours/week but I think I will likely be more of a 50 hour/week guy. The flexibility of the specialty is great but I am just wondering, from different experiences, how common these actually are. It seems there are plenty of jobs greater than, for example the Medscape averages, but I am curious about how realistic these jobs being available to most graduating residents actually are.
Click to expand...
50 hrs! :(
 
FranzLO said:
I know it may be a tough question to answer, but how common are salaries of 250k+? I don't think I am the academic type so I am talking group or solo PP. I know there is a lot of discussion of many psychiatrists working around or even less than 40 hours/week but I think I will likely be more of a 50 hour/week guy. The flexibility of the specialty is great but I am just wondering, from different experiences, how common these actually are. It seems there are plenty of jobs greater than, for example the Medscape averages, but I am curious about how realistic these jobs being available to most graduating residents actually are.
Click to expand...

Yes you can make 250k working 50 hours a week in PP. How common is it? Who knows... PP is customizable which is why it's great. Every private practice is radically different.

Don't forget self care. 50 hours of psych can be taxing. If patients start saying you are crazier than they are, that is not a good thing.

My recommendation? If you are a hard worker do private practice with 30 hours of patient encounters and leave 10 for admin/academic. Then spend time with family. Do push-ups. Run. Swim. Hike. Laugh. Play.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Members don't see this ad :)
F0nzie said:
Yes you can make 250k working 50 hours a week in PP. How common is it? Who knows... PP is customizable which is why it's great. Every private practice is radically different.

Don't forget self care. 50 hours of psych can be taxing. If patients start saying you are crazier than they are, that is not a good thing.

My recommendation? If you are a hard worker do private practice with 30 hours of patient encounters and leave 10 for admin/academic. Then spend time with family. Do push-ups. Run. Swim. Hike. Laugh. Play.
Click to expand...

I appreciate the reply and I agree with having a good balance which is one of the reasons I like psychiatry. I may be underestimating how much 50 hours can be so I will definitely keep that in mind. I just know other specialties I enjoy will definitely hover more around that.
 
FranzLO said:
I appreciate the reply and I agree with having a good balance which is one of the reasons I like psychiatry. I may be underestimating how much 50 hours can be so I will definitely keep that in mind. I just know other specialties I enjoy will definitely hover more around that.
Click to expand...

I did keep your $250k figure in mind with my reply so I guess I should elaborate. Let's say you do cash. You charge $125 per 30 min follow ups (which is a conservative number in most big city cash markets). You schedule a 10 hour day and plan to pull in $2500. Expect to get 75%(this is the magic number) of that (due to irregularities in the schedule, scheduling conflicts, no shows that don't pay, legitimate cancellations, etc.). You can charge the full amount for no shows and you should but you cannot realistically collect all of it. Ok. You're at $1875 for the day. You do this 3 days a week, leaving 10 hours for admin, 11 months out of the year and you're at $247,500 before your overhead. Expect to pay 20-50k in overhead if you run things lean, plus any additional tax deductions you seek. As you can see, there is no significant difference in salary between cash and employed positions in this scenario unless you hike your rates. Hiking your rates will also limit your availability among the cash clients and it will take you longer to fill.
 
After 6 hours of focused sessions with tearful patients, I feel mentally tired and want the day to end. What would that translate to, 30 hrs a week?
 
Leo Aquarius said:
After 6 hours of focused sessions with tearful patients, I feel mentally tired and want the day to end. What would that translate to, 30 hrs a week?
Click to expand...

Break it up with briefer med visits and utilize your colleagues to help you out with the therapy portion. I think 6 hours of therapy a day is more than enough even if you are passionate about it. Eat well and get plenty of sleep and exercise.
 
F0nzie said:
Break it up with briefer med visits and utilize your colleagues to help you out with the therapy portion. I think 6 hours of therapy a day is more than enough even if you are passionate about it. Eat well and get plenty of sleep and exercise.
Click to expand...

Thanks Fonz! Really appreciate it. I'm glad how I'm feeling is more normal than abnormal.

You rock, we all really appreciate your help here.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
F0nzie said:
Do push-ups. Run. Swim. Hike. Laugh. Play.
Click to expand...
Kettlebells. Rite of Passage from Enter the Kettlebell by Pavel Tsatsouline. Google it. Awesome. Time efficient and you will strong/jacked if done correctly. (Had to throw that in there so an SDNer or two will benefit).
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Here, according to Medscape 2013 Compensation report:

19% of Psychiatrists (1/5) earned more than 300K

http://www.medscape.com/features/slideshow/compensation/2013/psychiatry

In 2012, 6% of Psychiatrists earned over 300K

http://www.medscape.com/features/slideshow/compensation/2012/psychiatry

That is almost a 15% jump in just 1 year, impressive. Medscape stopped breaking down salaries by percentage after 2013.

So I don't understand why its so difficult hitting 250K? Maybe I'm missing something and I need to be enlightened. And as we have disccused in other threads, psych reimbursement is only going up. I'm hoping to be hitting 350k in the prime of my career. According to Fonzie's very informative post, #115, (Thx for that by the way), 350K is very doable in my eyes if I work 5-6 days a week.

Just my 2 cents,
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Dharma said:
Kettlebells. Rite of Passage from Enter the Kettlebell by Pavel Tsatsouline. Google it. Awesome. Time efficient and you will strong/jacked if done correctly. (Had to throw that in there so an SDNer or two will benefit).
Click to expand...

Not to get off topic, but you get strong/jacked through diet and lifting. As simple as that.
 
FranzLO said:
Not to get off topic, but you get strong/jacked through diet and lifting. As simple as that.
Click to expand...
Of course. But what I mentioned is pretty darn efficient. Don't have to spend my time driving to the gym, low cost in terms of equipment, a heavy bell only takes up so much space, in the confines of my own garage/backyard/office, wife and kid always within ear shot so I can still play, talk, whatever between sets... can't beat that IMO. Pavel is the man (yes, I'm a fanboy... haha).
 
F0nzie said:
Yes you can make 250k working 50 hours a week in PP. How common is it? Who knows... PP is customizable which is why it's great. Every private practice is radically different.

Don't forget self care. 50 hours of psych can be taxing. If patients start saying you are crazier than they are, that is not a good thing.

My recommendation? If you are a hard worker do private practice with 30 hours of patient encounters and leave 10 for admin/academic. Then spend time with family. Do push-ups. Run. Swim. Hike. Laugh. Play.
Click to expand...

That sounds like the formula I am searching for until I am at least 65. I would rather do pullups though - they are more effective.
 
Dharma said:
Of course. But what I mentioned is pretty darn efficient. Don't have to spend my time driving to the gym, low cost in terms of equipment, a heavy bell only takes up so much space, in the confines of my own garage/backyard/office, wife and kid always within ear shot so I can still play, talk, whatever between sets... can't beat that IMO. Pavel is the man (yes, I'm a fanboy... haha).
Click to expand...

Thanks for this... I'm fortunate enough to live two doors down from a nice neighborhood gym but I need some variety in my workouts.
 
Last edited:
Any of you guys push your compensation to 250k+ by doing 4 10's M-T and then doing a 1 day a week (8 hr) gig in a PP on Fridays? 250k+ for 48-50 hours does not seem bad.
 
Fonzie, I just re-read this post.

So lets say you make 1875/day. 1875x3 day week x 48 weeks = 270K.

So if you work 5 days a week, that is 1875x5 day week x 48 weeks = 450K.

And you said $125/30 min for follow up is a conservative number in big markets.

So I'm obviously missing something...because I can't imagine most psychiatrists in NYC/LA making 450-500K (Derm type money).

So are 5 days a week in the psych world not realistic?

F0nzie said:
I did keep your $250k figure in mind with my reply so I guess I should elaborate. Let's say you do cash. You charge $125 per 30 min follow ups (which is a conservative number in most big city cash markets). You schedule a 10 hour day and plan to pull in $2500. Expect to get 75%(this is the magic number) of that (due to irregularities in the schedule, scheduling conflicts, no shows that don't pay, legitimate cancellations, etc.). You can charge the full amount for no shows and you should but you cannot realistically collect all of it. Ok. You're at $1875 for the day. You do this 3 days a week, leaving 10 hours for admin, 11 months out of the year and you're at $247,500 before your overhead. Expect to pay 20-50k in overhead if you run things lean, plus any additional tax deductions you seek. As you can see, there is no significant difference in salary between cash and employed positions in this scenario unless you hike your rates. Hiking your rates will also limit your availability among the cash clients and it will take you longer to fill.
Click to expand...
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Blitz2006 said:
Fonzie, I just re-read this post.

So lets say you make 1875/day. 1875x3 day week x 48 weeks = 270K.

So if you work 5 days a week, that is 1875x5 day week x 48 weeks = 450K.

And you said $125/30 min for follow up is a conservative number in big markets.

So I'm obviously missing something...because I can't imagine most psychiatrists in NYC/LA making 450-500K (Derm type money).

So are 5 days a week in the psych world not realistic?
Click to expand...

It seems like you are working the numbers in a utopian vacuum. Since this is a PP model, what happened to overhead?

Also 500k isn't your average derm income...that's more like average ortho joints doc $$$.
 
Last edited:
Ok. So lets say if you do make 500k and take away 50k for overheads, that's still 450k.

450k for 50 hours a week and no weekends, sounds pretty "utopian" to me if you are making "ortho" money.



Frazier said:
It seems like you are working the numbers in a utopian vacuum. Since this is a PP model, what happened to overhead?

Also 500k isn't your average derm income...that's more like average ortho joints doc $$$.
Click to expand...
 
Frazier said:
It seems like you are working the numbers in a utopian vacuum. Since this is a PP model, what happened to overhead?

Also 500k isn't your average derm income...that's more like average ortho joints doc $$$.
Click to expand...

Sounds right. I know a neurosurgeon making 500K.
 
An attending at my program said if he did PP full-time, he could pull in 400K. My eyes lit up. :wideyed:
 
Leo Aquarius said:
An attending at my program said if he did PP full-time, he could pull in 400K. My eyes lit up. :wideyed:
Click to expand...

So why are ppl worrying about making 250k if attendings are confident in making 400k in pp?

In addition, psych is looking like a true hidden gem...well, I don't think it's so hidden anymore....
 
It's not that easy. You need to develop a patient base if you want to do pure cash. And if you take insurance the overhead is very high. Why are we ALWAYS on this topic? How to make gazillion in psych doing private practice... LOL

I would say if you work very busy hours and are efficient in a private insurance practice you can get close to 300k for a full time practice, but you have to figure in overhead such as health insurance, retirement plan, etc. Total comp is comparable if you add all that up for private practice vs. institutional.

Can you make a LOT of money in psych? Yes you can. You can charge much much more than $125 per 30-min med check. However, this is not easy and your practice doesn't fill very quickly. You need to expect the median salary and perhaps hope to get way more, not going in thinking you can make derm salary. There are ways to make >1 mil in derm, and this is not really feasible in psych (there are maybe a handful of psychiatrists in the country who make > 1 mil a year).
 
I think you also need to account for some variability week to week and some of your vacations will be forced. Having a pure cash practice and hoping to make a bit extra while staying in the office over Christmas? Good luck.

Cash paying patients have a choice and they tend to get in sooner and have more options. When you tell a patient with insurance that your next available follow up is 2 months away the day after Christmas or Thanksgiving, they're much more likely to be there.

There are other times during the year when things will slow down a bit too, ie Spring Break and in/around long weekends.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Of course.

But it seems clear that hitting 350-400k is very realistic. Big jump considering most of our colleagues think psych gets 200k...


mgdsh said:
I think you also need to account for some variability week to week and some of your vacations will be forced. Having a pure cash practice and hoping to make a bit extra while staying in the office over Christmas? Good luck.

Cash paying patients have a choice and they tend to get in sooner and have more options. When you tell a patient with insurance that your next available follow up is 2 months away the day after Christmas or Thanksgiving, they're much more likely to be there.

There are other times during the year when things will slow down a bit too, ie Spring Break and in/around long weekends.
Click to expand...
 
Blitz2006 said:
Of course.

But it seems clear that hitting 350-400k is very realistic. Big jump considering most of our colleagues think psych gets 200k...
Click to expand...

Right. 400k a year is very realistic
 
Blitz2006 said:
So why are ppl worrying about making 250k if attendings are confident in making 400k in pp?

In addition, psych is looking like a true hidden gem...well, I don't think it's so hidden anymore....
Click to expand...

There will always be a segment (the majority) of medical students that need the white coat and a stethoscope around their neck to feel important.
 
postbacpremed87 said:
There will always be a segment (the majority) of medical students that need the white coat and a stethoscope around their neck to feel important.
Click to expand...
Are they the same ones who won't just put the darn thing in their pocket when walking around the hospital? Am I the only one annoyed by that? (I know, I know... it's more about me than them, yada yada yada).
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Dharma said:
Are they the same ones who won't just put the darn thing in their pocket when walking around the hospital? Am I the only one annoyed by that? (I know, I know... it's more about me than them, yada yada yada).
Click to expand...

I am annoyed by it as well. This isn't Grey's Anatomy. Put the freaking thing in your pocket.
 
I disagree.

How many Dermatologists, Radiologists, Optho guys you see walking around hospitals with white coats and steths?

Exactly. To be honest, I've never seen any of these guys IN a hospital. They are too busy making bank in their outpatient clinics (Optho/Derm).



Just my 2 cents.

And here is an objective fact. I read in the Psychiatric Times April Issue, in this year's match, 13% increase in U.S graduates matching into Psych. That is the LARGEST increase in all specialities for U.S grads. According to the article, if this pace continues, Psychiatry will be all U.S Grads and no IMGs by 2018.

Just some food for thought.

postbacpremed87 said:
There will always be a segment (the majority) of medical students that need the white coat and a stethoscope around their neck to feel important.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
Blitz2006 said:
I disagree.

How many Dermatologists, Radiologists, Optho guys you see walking around hospitals with white coats and steths?

Exactly. To be honest, I've never seen any of these guys IN a hospital. They are too busy making bank in their outpatient clinics (Optho/Derm).

Just my 2 cents.
Click to expand...

Well a big part of it is that there just isn't that much business to be had by a horde of ophtho's running around your average community hospital at the same time, the occasional trauma or emergent glaucoma, sure...but it isn't like they should be combing the wards but instead choose to stay outpatient to 'make bank'. The intrinsic nature of their bread and butter aligns them with outpatient practice.

I do agree with your point about Psych Times story on trends in matching. It is nice to see a potential uptick in interest.
 
Last edited:
Ok. I was a bit of a jerk. Fair enough. Didn't really mean to be condescending, just wanted to make a point abt white coats and steths. My bad.

I removed that part of my post.

Thx for heads up Frazier.

Regarding your comment about derm and optho. I agree, my point was though that medical students aren't exactly driven to wear white coats and steths, with highly competitive derm and optho providing evidence for that.

My point was that lifestyle and reimbursement are the two largest incentive factors, much greater than white coat and steths.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Blitz2006 said:
According to the article, if this pace continues, Psychiatry will be all U.S Grads and no IMGs by 2018.
Click to expand...

I'm calling BS on that (the article not you). I still don't buy this chatter that psychiatry is getting all that much more competitive.
 
Dharma said:
I'm calling BS on that (the article not you). I still don't buy this chatter that psychiatry is getting all that much more competitive.
Click to expand...

You don't have to buy it, but I've seen it subjectively in my program. This year match we only matched U.S MD. No IMGs or DO. First time ever.

I am Canadian so I keep track of match stuff up north. Last year in Ontario, for the first time ever there were no psych spots in 2nd round.

So maybe it's all BS, but I dunno, I think it's shifting in our favor.
 
I don't know when this blog was started, but I'll bet there has been a thread about who much more competitive psych is becoming every year for more than 10 years. We have been stuck at 3% for a very long time.
 
Blitz2006 said:
You don't have to buy it, but I've seen it subjectively in my program. This year match we only matched U.S MD. No IMGs or DO. First time ever.

I am Canadian so I keep track of match stuff up north. Last year in Ontario, for the first time ever there were no psych spots in 2nd round.

So maybe it's all BS, but I dunno, I think it's shifting in our favor.
Click to expand...
Time will tell, eh?
 
Time will tell. But I also think it's shifting despite people thinking it was shifting a while back while it was not really shifting. I know, I know, I sound like one of those end-of-the-world-is-coming folks who can't get a clue, but this time the numbers and planets are really lining up.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Next unread thread

Similar threads

K
Psychiatry salary
Replies
16
Views
2K
Kalogada
K
clement
Salary Votes
Replies
23
Views
1K
clement
clement
B
Didnt Match Psych
Replies
12
Views
2K
HbondsR_FON
HbondsR_FON
Auvelity
Getting a salary number?
Replies
5
Views
1K
J ROD
J ROD
clement
ER Psych Fishing
Replies
44
Views
2K
Merovinge
Merovinge
Top