Proposed law for optometric surgery.

[KHE]

Why are you guys debating this stuff with a first year optometry student?

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[Meibomian SxN]

Most comprehensive ophthalmologists do zero injections and few lasers despite adequate training for both. The problem is the economics. How many OD's do you think will actually being lasers and injections?

What percentage?

I'd say 5% or even less. But that's where the profession is headed. Reminds me of the Iraq war when 90% of the world stood and said NO, but the gov't acted in "its best interest."

So even though I and 90% of other ODs disagree, the fact is lasers & injections will be added to the menu for the few to eat from. Oh well....Bon Appétit!

 

[MastahRiz]

The Iraq War... and that just went swimmingly.

 

[Visionary]

If these lasers are anything like other 'lasers' I've encountered/read about in clinical medicine, they cost thousands, upon thousands of dollars and actually purchasing one just to have the satisfaction of training is annual balance sheet suicide.

Why would anyone do this?



Do you have any conclusive proof that ODs are more likely to practice in rural and underserved areas? I hear this argument with a lot of health professions seeking scope expansion, but once new privileges are granted, the new practitioners flock to the cities like everyone else. Is there any sort of break down in Oklahoma (being the official OD laser state) that shows a greater number of ODs performing laser procedures in rural/underserved areas compared to larger urban/suburban locales?

Yeah, most therapeutic lasers cost $60k+. ROI is not good at all, unless you are doing a lot of them.

As for your second question, it is well-known that the OK optometrists who laser are in the metropolitan, rather than rural areas. Same thing will happen in KY. That's another reason why the "access to care" argument has always been a joke. Seems to work on the politicians, though (as long as there's money in it for them).

 

[Visionary]

Why are you guys debating this stuff with a first year optometry student?

Good point. Of course, why is a 1st year optometry student debating it with us?

 

[JaggerPlate]

Yeah, most therapeutic lasers cost $60k+. ROI is not good at all, unless you are doing a lot of them.

As for your second question, it is well-known that the OK optometrists who laser are in the metropolitan, rather than rural areas. Same thing will happen in KY. That's another reason why the "access to care" argument has always been a joke. Seems to work on the politicians, though (as long as there's money in it for them).

on both points ... definitely what I was getting at.

 

[ILikeEyeballs]

This debate is absolutely ridiculous. We already have a pathway setup in our society to train professionals to handle the ocular surgical needs of the population. It involves 4 years of medical school, a 1 year general internship, and 3 years of graduate medical training in an accredited ophthalmology residency program. This system works great and is providing more than enough qualified ophthalmologists to meet the needs of the population. Therefore there is no need to create an alternative pathway or expand the scope of optometry. The system is already providing enough ophthalmologist to fit the needs of patients.

When I was an undergrad, I knew I wanted to be involved in eyecare and had to decide between optometry and ophthalmology. Going into optometry would've been the safer route because I would've been guaranteed a job in the field, would be done with my training in 4 years as opposed to 8, and wouldn't have to deal with the stress of trying to match into one of the most competitive fields in medicine. I decided to go to medical school because I wanted the best training possible and didn't want the scope of my practice limited. After working my butt off for 4 years, investing hundreds of thousands of dollars (over $10,000 alone on the interview process) I secured one of the highly sought after ophthalmology residency positions and couldn't be happier. If you wanted to be able to operate, you should have done the same. Don't make your patients pay because you made a bad decision.

 

[Meibomian SxN]

.... Don't make your patients pay because you made a bad decision.

Why is it a bad decision? Kudos to you and your accomplishments, but your dreams weren't mines. When I was in college a family relative got poked in the eye "accidentally" with a phone antenna and went blind. When we went to see him at Scheie Eye Hospital, I asked the doc about his job, hours, happiness, etc. I saw him with 2 pagers on his waist and bags under his eyes. I knew then ophthalmology was not for me....

Also during college I shadowed my cousin who is a ortho surgeon. Started at around 5-6am teaching residents, running up and down stairs, between different hospitals and then topped the day off at 7pm with an emergency surgery to reattach the finger of an uninsured migrant worker. You can guess that my lazy ass was NOT going that route.

So I say all that to say I was NOT a medical or osteopathic school reject and I am sure there are other ODs who are similar.

Ophthalmology scope sure has changed in the last 10-20yrs but they can always say "We have the foundation to do what we do." And the same for other fields of medicine. Look how many aesthetic surgeons exist now? Interventionalist docs? Etc.

Things change. How many ODs had to have ACLS training 20yrs ago? ODs will never have 12,000 hours like an MD resident, but that does not mean things have to stay the same for us. Like it or not, affordable or not, laser & "lumps/bumps" are and WILL be apart of the new ODs scope.

Embrace it....

 

[EyeGuy15]

This is great.

In my humble opinion it is all a moot point. No intelligent person would let an optometrist use a laser or take a scalpel to any part of their body. With the vast amount of resources and information available to the general public(i.e. the internet) this will all be an issue for rural counties. Anyone with half a brain and the ability to look up information on ophthalmologists and optometrists know that optometrists should not be doing anything even remotely invasive.

If optometrists want to go to rural communities where there are no ophthalmologists, go ahead. The rest of the world is very aware of what they should and should not do.

Quite frankly, with the saturation of ophthalmologists in so many cities, optometrists are pretty useless. A certified ophthalmic technician can do everything that they do with ease. Unfortunately, insurance companies will not pay for an ophthalmologist to refract a patient. If they did, it would be game over. Imagine having a good technician refract patients all day and the ophthalmologist just pop in to confirm the results.

Why an optometrist/optometry student is so cocky is beyond me. You literally are the dumbest person in the room when it comes to this thread....and no, do not even try to compare an OD degree to an MD/DO degree. No one would buy any argument you would try to sell.

"You can guess that my lazy ass was NOT going that route" ... enough said. You have to earn the right to do certain things in the field of medicine and all you have earned is the right to sell me my glasses at Lens-Crafters. That is all.

 

[Visionary]

This is gonna get good.

 

[Meibomian SxN]

This is great.

In my humble opinion it is all a moot point. No intelligent person would let an optometrist use a laser or take a scalpel to any part of their body. With the vast amount of resources and information available to the general public(i.e. the internet) this will all be an issue for rural counties. Anyone with half a brain and the ability to look up information on ophthalmologists and optometrists know that optometrists should not be doing anything even remotely invasive.

If optometrists want to go to rural communities where there are no ophthalmologists, go ahead. The rest of the world is very aware of what they should and should not do.

Quite frankly, with the saturation of ophthalmologists in so many cities, optometrists are pretty useless. A certified ophthalmic technician can do everything that they do with ease. Unfortunately, insurance companies will not pay for an ophthalmologist to refract a patient. If they did, it would be game over. Imagine having a good technician refract patients all day and the ophthalmologist just pop in to confirm the results.

Why an optometrist/optometry student is so cocky is beyond me. You literally are the dumbest person in the room when it comes to this thread....and no, do not even try to compare an OD degree to an MD/DO degree. No one would buy any argument you would try to sell.

"You can guess that my lazy ass was NOT going that route" ... enough said. You have to earn the right to do certain things in the field of medicine and all you have earned is the right to sell me my glasses at Lens-Crafters. That is all.

I love the residents, always so full of energy and sheltered by their programs...

You obviously haven't been to NYC. I've seen ophthalmologists do exactly what you've described. The techs were certified and did history, refraction, GAT and dilalted the Px. I was pretty amazed myself. The difference between the tech and myself is that I know how to interpret the data and not just collect it. I also can bill & be PAID for that exam and the tech can't. And now I can use lasers and snip "lumps & bumps" too....

The game definitely would never be over. I filled in at a Lenscrafters in Brooklyn before. You'd be surprised what walks through the door to be seen. With everyone losing their insurance, want to bet on who sees more self-pay patients between ODs & MDs? I thought not.....

 

[Shnurek]

"You can guess that my lazy ass was NOT going that route" ... enough said. You have to earn the right to do certain things in the field of medicine and all you have earned is the right to sell me my glasses at Lens-Crafters. That is all.

OK wise guy you should know as a physician that memory consolidation occurs at night. When you stress medical students and residents out and force them to lack sleep your efficiency of the training goes down immensely. So who cares if you do 80 hours a week when half of what you do doesn't stick.

That's why optometric physician training is superior. We start our focused training 5 years earlier, we do not kill (catabolize) our proteins by constant stress, and we have satisfactory memory consolidation because we have a normal sleep cycle. Efficiency over quantity.

People like you are the ones that constantly spit out that dentists aren't real doctors but they just laugh at you when all they have to do is 5 years of training to perform complicated bone surgery, administer general anaesthesia and receive great insurance reimbursements.

 

[Slide]

OK wise guy you should know as a physician that memory consolidation occurs at night. When you stress medical students and residents out and force them to lack sleep your efficiency of the training goes down immensely. So who cares if you do 80 hours a week when half of what you do doesn't stick.

You'd be surprised what sticks during your 80 hour work weeks.

That's why optometric physician training is superior. We start our focused training 5 years earlier, we do not kill (catabolize) our proteins by constant stress, and we have satisfactory memory consolidation because we have a normal sleep cycle. Efficiency over quantity.

Not sure if serious or trolling.

People like you are the ones that constantly spit out that dentists aren't real doctors but they just laugh at you when all they have to do is 5 years of training to perform complicated bone surgery, administer general anaesthesia and receive great insurance reimbursements.

Lol why are you so mad brah? Haters gonna hate.

 

[Shnurek]

lol

 

[imemily]

Why do OMDs care so much about what ODs want to do with their own profession?

I mean, MDs are cool and all, but they are very far from being owners of other professions.

 

[JaggerPlate]

OK wise guy you should know as a physician that memory consolidation occurs at night. When you stress medical students and residents out and force them to lack sleep your efficiency of the training goes down immensely. So who cares if you do 80 hours a week when half of what you do doesn't stick.

That's why optometric physician training is superior. We start our focused training 5 years earlier, we do not kill (catabolize) our proteins by constant stress, and we have satisfactory memory consolidation because we have a normal sleep cycle. Efficiency over quantity.

People like you are the ones that constantly spit out that dentists aren't real doctors but they just laugh at you when all they have to do is 5 years of training to perform complicated bone surgery, administer general anaesthesia and receive great insurance reimbursements.

Jesus.

 

[LightBox]

That's why optometric physician training is superior. .

I've got to say. This is the funniest statement that I've read on this entire message board. And to MeibomianWantsToCutEveryEyeball, your patients must be happy knowing that you strive to become a lazy eye surgeon!

Patient: "Dr. Meibomian, I can't see jack sh** and my eye is on fire after the intracap that you did on me two days ago!"

Meibomian: "Sir, it's exactly 5:02 pm. I cannot come into the office right now to take a look at you. Come back on Monday and I'll figure out how to tap and inject you with something I read on an Internet optom blog."

It's really great that Meibomian and Shrunek are the faces of Optometry on the Internet. Their inane posts hopefully spur more of us OMDs to donate to our political advocacy groups and SCOPE.

 

[Visionary]

OK wise guy you should know as a physician that memory consolidation occurs at night. When you stress medical students and residents out and force them to lack sleep your efficiency of the training goes down immensely. So who cares if you do 80 hours a week when half of what you do doesn't stick.

That's why optometric physician training is superior. We start our focused training 5 years earlier, we do not kill (catabolize) our proteins by constant stress, and we have satisfactory memory consolidation because we have a normal sleep cycle. Efficiency over quantity.

People like you are the ones that constantly spit out that dentists aren't real doctors but they just laugh at you when all they have to do is 5 years of training to perform complicated bone surgery, administer general anaesthesia and receive great insurance reimbursements.

Man, you're delusional.

 

[Visionary]

Why do OMDs care so much about what ODs want to do with their own profession?

I mean, MDs are cool and all, but they are very far from being owners of other professions.

Eye surgery was developed by ophthalmologists, not optometrists. The only way any optometrist can learn surgery is from an ophthalmologist. I would say we very much own that aspect of the profession. Glasses, contacts, general eye care: have at it.

 

[speyeder]

OK wise guy you should know as a physician that memory consolidation occurs at night. When you stress medical students and residents out and force them to lack sleep your efficiency of the training goes down immensely. So who cares if you do 80 hours a week when half of what you do doesn't stick.

That's why optometric physician training is superior. We start our focused training 5 years earlier, we do not kill (catabolize) our proteins by constant stress, and we have satisfactory memory consolidation because we have a normal sleep cycle. Efficiency over quantity.

People like you are the ones that constantly spit out that dentists aren't real doctors but they just laugh at you when all they have to do is 5 years of training to perform complicated bone surgery, administer general anaesthesia and receive great insurance reimbursements.

Were you high when you wrote this?

 

[Meibomian SxN]

I've got to say. This is the funniest statement that I've read on this entire message board. And to MeibomianWantsToCutEveryEyeball, your patients must be happy knowing that you strive to become a lazy eye surgeon!

Patient: "Dr. Meibomian, I can't see jack sh** and my eye is on fire after the intracap that you did on me two days ago!"

Meibomian: "Sir, it's exactly 5:02 pm. I cannot come into the office right now to take a look at you. Come back on Monday and I'll figure out how to tap and inject you with something I read on an Internet optom blog."

It's really great that Meibomian and Shrunek are the faces of Optometry on the Internet. Their inane posts hopefully spur more of us OMDs to donate to our political advocacy groups and SCOPE.

I can tell you have never had to deal with private practice retina. 4pm is the cutoff around here, no exceptions...

I'm honest with myself. I did not have it in me to sacrifice being at home with my first newborn at 7pm all because some illegal immigrant with no insurance got dropped off at the hospital with his finger cut off. Nor do I find fulfillment in seeing peritomies performed. Just like you decided that cutting out cancers was not your thing. Or brain shunts. Or vasectomies. Etc.

My patients are happy to know that I am their eye doctor. And if that also includes some non-invasive procedures or lumps & bumps removal/injections, then they are quite fine with that.

 

[speyeder]

I can tell you have never had to deal with private practice retina. 4pm is the cutoff around here, no exceptions...

I'm honest with myself. I did not have it in me to sacrifice being at home with my first newborn at 7pm all because some illegal immigrant with no insurance got dropped off at the hospital with his finger cut off. Nor do I find fulfillment in seeing peritomies performed. Just like you decided that cutting out cancers was not your thing. Or brain shunts. Or vasectomies. Etc.

My patients are happy to know that I am their eye doctor. And if that also includes some non-invasive procedures or lumps & bumps removal/injections, then they are quite fine with that.

I actually respect that. Working crazy surgeon hours is not everyone's cup of tea. It is better to know this ahead of time rather than jumping into medicine and realizing later that you hate it.

The only thing some of us have a problem with is when ODs and pre-ODs call for the creation of a second tier of eye surgeons, who, in all honesty, would receive inferior training to what the current model in place already provides. To some this is sort of a cop out, asking for the same rights and privileges as ophthalmologists without going through the same rigors of medical school and residency. It is like granting techs and opticians the right to refract and dispense glasses without having to go through optometry school.

 

[Shnurek]

Eye surgery was developed by ophthalmologists, not optometrists. The only way any optometrist can learn surgery is from an ophthalmologist. I would say we very much own that aspect of the profession. Glasses, contacts, general eye care: have at it.

Dr. Castillo, D.O.,O.D. is hooking us up: http://theoptometricproceduresinstitute.com/ODCE.TV/About_US.html

Were you high when you wrote this?

No, but prove me wrong about the stress and lack of sleep

 

[Meibomian SxN]

Dr. Castillo, D.O.,O.D. is hooking us up: http://theoptometricproceduresinstitute.com/ODCE.TV/About_US.html

Dermato-Radiofrequency Ablation course on-demand? Niiiice! Forget the 32hr LaQuinta weekend course, I'll do this one on my Android while on the can!

 

[imemily]

Eye surgery was developed by ophthalmologists, not optometrists. The only way any optometrist can learn surgery is from an ophthalmologist. I would say we very much own that aspect of the profession. Glasses, contacts, general eye care: have at it.

That's not a good reason honestly.

Lets just assume that the italians developed pizza for example. Nowadays, virtually anybody can open up a pizza shop/restaurant, even though Italians were the creators/developers of pizza. Same can be applied to OMDs and ODs with regards to surgery.

I think ODs, if the laws pass etc, will be thought by OMDs since ODs like you said don't know surgical procedures. So effectively, the OD is learning from the OMD - just without going to school for it.

 

[LightBox]

That's not a good reason honestly.

Lets just assume that the italians developed pizza for example. Nowadays, virtually anybody can open up a pizza shop/restaurant, even though Italians were the creators/developers of pizza. Same can be applied to OMDs and ODs with regards to surgery.

I think ODs, if the laws pass etc, will be thought by OMDs since ODs like you said don't know surgical procedures. So effectively, the OD is learning from the OMD - just without going to school for it.

Look: there is already an established route for eye surgery. It's called "Ophthalmology". If you are Pre-Optometry right now and want to do eye surgery, then just go to med school, Ophthalmology residency, and the regular established route.

I believe that any self-respecting Ophthalmologist would NEVER train an optometrist to do any sort of surgery. In fact, I think the ABO should immediately de-board any Ophthalmologist who does this.

 

[LightBox]

I'm honest with myself. I did not have it in me to sacrifice being at home with my first newborn at 7pm all because some illegal immigrant with no insurance got dropped off at the hospital with his finger cut off.

Your compassion for other human beings and the poor is commendable. Does this represent the general attitude of Optometrists to the poor? I'm so thrilled that such a compassionate person is striving to do eye surgery.

 

[imemily]

Look: there is already an established route for eye surgery. It's called "Ophthalmology". If you are Pre-Optometry right now and want to do eye surgery, then just go to med school, Ophthalmology residency, and the regular established route.

I believe that any self-respecting Ophthalmologist would NEVER train an optometrist to do any sort of surgery. In fact, I think the ABO should immediately de-board any Ophthalmologist who does this.

Agreed, but, why can't there be other alternatives,? As long standards and laws are maintained, it should be OK.

Personally, I would not want to perform surgery even if I could. Hence, why I will never attend medical school. But for those who say later on in their careers want to do surgery, and some sort of program is availible to teach them surgical procedures which must meet laws and standards etc, then I don't see why its a bad thing. I really don't.

If its because OMDs were the original developers of surgery, then that is simply a not good enough reason.

 

[LightBox]

Dr. Castillo, D.O.,O.D. is hooking us up: http://theoptometricproceduresinstitute.com/ODCE.TV/About_US.html

From that website:

By the time an optometric physician completes 8+ years of pre-professional and professional Optometric education including 4 years of clinical training at NSU-OCO, he or she has more didactic classroom hours, direct observational encounters, and actual clinical experience in performing ophthalmic office procedures than any U.S. Medical or Osteopathic graduate.

Seriously, could these Optometrists be misleading the public any more? Funny how they don't compare this "superior" training to a person who actually has undergone Ophthalmology residency/fellowship.

You might as well say, "By the time an optometric physician completes <blah><blah>, he or she has more didactice classroom hours<blah><blah> than someone who has completed their Electrical Engineering degree."

I love this whole "optometric physician" lingo that you guys are throwing around. You guys are NOT physicians. Live with it. Sheesh. You don't see us saying that we are "Doctors of Optometry"!

 

[Shnurek]

Seriously, could these Optometrists be misleading the public any more? Funny how they don't compare this "superior" training to a person who actually has undergone Ophthalmology residency/fellowship.

Not misleading. On the day of graduation from each respective school, optometrists have the most experience.

I love this whole "optometric physician" lingo that you guys are throwing around. You guys are NOT physicians. Live with it. Sheesh. You don't see us saying that we are "Doctors of Optometry"!

Medicare seems to disagree.

 

[speyeder]

Agreed, but, why can't there be other alternatives,? As long standards and laws are maintained, it should be OK.

Personally, I would not want to perform surgery even if I could. Hence, why I will never attend medical school. But for those who say later on in their careers want to do surgery, and some sort of program is availible to teach them surgical procedures which must meet laws and standards etc, then I don't see why its a bad thing. I really don't.

If its because OMDs were the original developers of surgery, then that is simply a not good enough reason.

So you're okay with ophthalmic techs and opticians refracting and dispensing glasses right?

 

[WhatNEyeTem]

Not misleading. On the day of graduation from each respective school, optometrists have the most experience.



Medicare seems to disagree.

Not to bash Optometrists, but I remember we had some 4th year Optometry students, about to graduate in 2 months, shadowing us in Glaucoma clinic. A hyphema came in and the Optometry students were like, "Oh my god! I've never seen a hyphema before!!" The same was true for other common eye pathology.

Excellent training indeed.

 

[Shnurek]

So you're okay with ophthalmic techs and opticians refracting and dispensing glasses right?

If they take 2 years of optics, learn refraction through a graduate school, but then they will get sued if they miss disease so they would have to learn how to pick that up too...o wait

 

[speyeder]

If they take 2 years of optics, learn refraction through a graduate school, but then they will get sued if they miss disease so they would have to learn how to pick that up too...o wait

Wait, why do you get to set the standards for opticians and techs? What if they decide they just want to refract and sell glasses, therefore a couple of weekend courses should suffice.

 

[Shnurek]

Wait, why do you get to set the standards for opticians and techs? What if they decide they just want to refract and sell glasses, therefore a couple of weekend courses should suffice.

Really, a couple of weekend courses. And if people are overcorrected and/or get headaches because of prism by decentration or get accommodation spasms, that wouldn't be good for public health. Also the reason why ODs started expanding their rights into diagnosing diseases is because they would get sued successfully when they would miss things. So, if you refract in this country you have to know how to diagnose eye diseases as well which makes your "couple of weekend" courses point moot.

 

[WhatNEyeTem]

Really, a couple of weekend courses. And if people are overcorrected and/or get headaches because of prism by decentration or get accommodation spasms, that wouldn't be good for public health. Also the reason why ODs started expanding their rights into diagnosing diseases is because they would get sued successfully when they would miss things. So, if you refract in this country you have to know how to diagnose eye diseases as well which makes your "couple of weekend" courses point moot.

Whoa! Someone's being a little hypocritical.

So you're allowed to take a weekend course to do surgery on one of the most sensitive parts of the body, but these techs and opticians can't take a weekend course to dispense glasses? Hmmm, seems like your rationale for letting ODs do surgery is breaking down.

It would be hilarious if this Optom movement to do surgery backfired in their faces...with techs and opticians doing all of the refractions and selling Gucchi glasses. Optoms would go extinct... FAST!

 

[speyeder]

Really, a couple of weekend courses. And if people are overcorrected and/or get headaches because of prism by decentration or get accommodation spasms, that wouldn't be good for public health. Also the reason why ODs started expanding their rights into diagnosing diseases is because they would get sued successfully when they would miss things. So, if you refract in this country you have to know how to diagnose eye diseases as well which makes your "couple of weekend" courses point moot.

What? A weekend course to learn how to refract? That's absurd. But a weekend course to learn eye surgery? No problem right?

 

[imemily]

So you're okay with ophthalmic techs and opticians refracting and dispensing glasses right?

Those are two completely different things.

Opticians in some states have a 6 month program. All Optometrists are required to have completed 4 years of undergraduate studies + 4 years of graduate studies.

The OD is more qualified to perform surgery after they pass tests/classes whatever the case may be than an Optician is to perform refractions and dispense glasses etc.

 

[Shnurek]

What? A weekend course to learn how to refract? That's absurd. But a weekend course to learn eye surgery? No problem right?

Lol here we go again. Optometrists take 4 years of pre-medical requirements, bio, chem, orgo, physics, AND extra microanatomy, psychology, biochemistry, anatomy and physiology requirements that for example are not required by osteopathic/allopathic schools. We take those advanced biology courses in college so we can spend more time on eyes in optometry school.

We practice lasers on pig eyes (just like ophthalmologists), we rotate through Oklahoma to practice on humans, so we have sufficient knowledge how to perform easy laser procedures. 32 hour course is not so absurd but to be honest I can't find it anywhere on google that it is really 32 hours. Its mostly just ophthalmologists saying it on articles making it seem like our whole education is 32 hours long, but no real proof I see yet. Maybe you could enlighten me. The law is not implemented yet and the educational requirement might change before it becomes implemented so don't get ahead of yourselves.

 

[speyeder]

Lol here we go again. Optometrists take 4 years of pre-medical requirements, bio, chem, orgo, physics, AND extra microanatomy, psychology, biochemistry, anatomy and physiology requirements that for example are not required by osteopathic/allopathic schools. We take those advanced biology courses in college so we can spend more time on eyes in optometry school.

We practice lasers on pig eyes (just like ophthalmologists), we rotate through Oklahoma to practice on humans, so we have sufficient knowledge how to perform easy laser procedures. 32 hour course is not so absurd but to be honest I can't find it anywhere on google that it is really 32 hours. Its mostly just ophthalmologists saying it on articles making it seem like our whole education is 32 hours long, but no real proof I see yet. Maybe you could enlighten me. The law is not implemented yet and the educational requirement might change before it becomes implemented so don't get ahead of yourselves.

My point is that you want techs and opticians to go through the same education and training that optometrists do in order to refract. Yet when ophthalmologists insist on the same for ODs who want to perform surgery, you scoff at that idea, as if the 3 years and thousands of hours ophthalmologists spend learning the nuances of surgery mean nothing.

 

[WhatNEyeTem]

Lol here we go again. Optometrists take 4 years of pre-medical requirements, bio, chem, orgo, physics, AND extra microanatomy, psychology, biochemistry, anatomy and physiology requirements that for example are not required by osteopathic/allopathic schools. We take those advanced biology courses in college so we can spend more time on eyes in optometry school.

We practice lasers on pig eyes (just like ophthalmologists), we rotate through Oklahoma to practice on humans, so we have sufficient knowledge how to perform easy laser procedures. 32 hour course is not so absurd but to be honest I can't find it anywhere on google that it is really 32 hours. Its mostly just ophthalmologists saying it on articles making it seem like our whole education is 32 hours long, but no real proof I see yet. Maybe you could enlighten me. The law is not implemented yet and the educational requirement might change before it becomes implemented so don't get ahead of yourselves.

Ok, it's set: I will be certifying any willing optician or tech to perform refractions and to dispense contact lenses. I will go the extra mile and make this a 33 hour course. We will be setting up refraction/contact lens stations directly across from every Optometrist in the city and charge 30% less.

Good luck ODs!

 

[Slide]

My point is that you want techs and opticians to go through the same education and training that optometrist do in order to refract. Yet when ophthalmologists insist on the same for ODs who want to perform surgery, you scoff at that idea, as if the 3 years and thousands of hours ophthalmologists spend learning the nuances of surgery mean nothing.

I don't think there's really any point arguing with this optom student, it's like trying to debate Bill O'Reilly; when you debate back, he just shouts back, and when you use a factually-supported good argument, he just shouts louder and louder until he drowns you out.

Your point does definitely show the hypocrisy in the few ODs that are trying to push this argument. Do as I say, not as I do, right?

 

[JaggerPlate]

Really, a couple of weekend courses. And if people are overcorrected and/or get headaches because of prism by decentration or get accommodation spasms, that wouldn't be good for public health. Also the reason why ODs started expanding their rights into diagnosing diseases is because they would get sued successfully when they would miss things. So, if you refract in this country you have to know how to diagnose eye diseases as well which makes your "couple of weekend" courses point moot.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

OH MY GOD! I seriously just laughed out loud at my computer screen. Wow. LOLOL. Wow. 100% speaks for itself.

Listen, with an appropriate amount of respect granted, the ODs, OD students, and pre-ODs rolleyes should just stop arguing.

At some point, this discussion had merit, and it's now degraded into Mei frolicking around about his 'lumps and bumps' and something about not wanting to go to medical school for racist, ER emergent purposes (despite the fact that he's openly admitted on the boards before that Optometry is not what he thought it would be and he'd go to medical school if Doc Brown presented the opportunity), Shnurek flinging some of the most ill-guided non sequiturs, straw men arguments I've ever seen, and some 18 year old kid (who's arguing with ODs in another thread about the state of Optometry and why they are misinformed when it comes to their own profession and salary) making references to pizza????

Here's the deal: at this point, what's done is done; they are pushing these ill-guided, greedy, unsafe expansions in several states and it will be a junk yard dog fight from here on out. Anyone who reads these threads can easily come to a very, very logical conclusion about the true intention and ethical principles behind these bills, and you guys aren't doing ANYTHING to convince people at this point. In fact, you really should just quit digging the grave and jump out while you can, because it's all out of your hands regardless.

Let's wait and see what happens on a case-by-case basis with these absurd bills.

Bye.

 

[Mirror Form]

I can tell you have never had to deal with private practice retina. 4pm is the cutoff around here, no exceptions...

Maybe you should start referring to the guy who will accept your patients instead of the guy who gave you free food?

My patients are happy to know that I am their eye doctor. And if that also includes some non-invasive procedures or lumps & bumps removal/injections, then they are quite fine with that.

Yeah, simple non-invasive stuff . . . IF you do much in the way of minor procedures, you'll find out that they're actually not all fun and games. Nor do they actually reimburse much. It's funny how many optoms have been brainwashed into wanting their scope expanded, but they have no idea what that would actually entail.

 

[taehong81]

I wonder how many optometrist will let another optometrist do laser or eyelid procedure on their own eyes or their family member's eyes?

 

[Shnurek]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


At some point, this discussion had merit, and it's now degraded into Mei frolicking around about his 'lumps and bumps' and something about not wanting to go to medical school for racist, ER emergent purposes (despite the fact that he's openly admitted on the boards before that Optometry is not what he thought it would be and he'd go to medical school if Doc Brown presented the opportunity),

I actually laughed really hard at reading this lmao. Idk I'll know a lot more in 3-4 years so I'll be able to come out with different arguments.

 

[KHE]

Jesus H Christ!!

For the love of all that is good and holy in the world, please please PLEASE won't someone close this thread?!?

 

[Visionary]

That's not a good reason honestly.

Lets just assume that the italians developed pizza for example. Nowadays, virtually anybody can open up a pizza shop/restaurant, even though Italians were the creators/developers of pizza. Same can be applied to OMDs and ODs with regards to surgery.

I think ODs, if the laws pass etc, will be thought by OMDs since ODs like you said don't know surgical procedures. So effectively, the OD is learning from the OMD - just without going to school for it.

So, you're comparing eye surgery to a pizza franchise? That's interesting.

 

[Visionary]

Whoa! Someone's being a little hypocritical.

So you're allowed to take a weekend course to do surgery on one of the most sensitive parts of the body, but these techs and opticians can't take a weekend course to dispense glasses? Hmmm, seems like your rationale for letting ODs do surgery is breaking down.

It would be hilarious if this Optom movement to do surgery backfired in their faces...with techs and opticians doing all of the refractions and selling Gucchi glasses. Optoms would go extinct... FAST!

I love this angle! Heck, some of my techs are excellent refractionists, and they can check IOPs and do external exams (though, they don't always know what they're looking at). I think I'll propose a bill allowing them to refract without oversight. Then, we could franchise out our optical, using imemily's pizza analogy. It will be awesome!

 

[Visionary]

Jesus H Christ!!

For the love of all that is good and holy in the world, please please PLEASE won't someone close this thread?!?

Aw, Ken, this is just too much fun! I haven't laughed this hard at a thread in a long while!