Prop 23 in California, Dialysis clinics

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DrMetal

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Thoughts? I gotta vote on this.


California Proposition 23, the Dialysis Clinic Requirements Initiative, is on the ballot in California as an initiated state statute on November 3, 2020.

A "yes" vote supports this ballot initiative to require chronic dialysis clinics to: have an on-site physician while patients are being treated; report data on dialysis-related infections; obtain consent from the state health department before closing a clinic; and not discriminate against patients based on the source of payment for care.
A "no" vote opposes this ballot initiative to require chronic dialysis clinics to: have an on-site physician while patients are being treated; report data on dialysis-related infections; obtain consent from the state health department before closing a clinic; and not discriminate against patients based on the source of payment for care.




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I think, like most citizen/voter propositions, it's poorly written, confounds a lot of crap in one bill and will be overturned in court if it passes.

Indeed. The HD clinics in CA are threatening to close if it passes (likely bluffing, but still). I guess they really don't want to hire physicians!
 
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It seems really bad.

They reason at point A4 that "many dialysis clinics in California have been cited for failure to maintain proper standards of care." It seems like it would be easier to address those issues at those clinics than to take this astounding blanket approach.

They want to have a physician present while patients are in clinic to address any complications with treatments, but they do not have a firm grasp on what they are actually asking. Dialysis patients are monitored closely. Currently, dialysis patients are typically seen by a physician or NP/PA four times monthly for maximum visits and billing. The medical director or perhaps patient's attending is available by phone if there are any issues or concerns.

To have a physician on site will cost both the physician and the dialysis company. Davita/Fresenius may have their own staff in some areas, but much of the time, they have an agreement with local private practices to see patients in the clinics and perform director duties. If a physician has to be on site during all the treatment times, that physician cannot do anything else at the time. And this is not a small amount of time lost; if a clinic runs 3 shifts on different day schedules (MWF, TTS), the clinic is treating patients 12 hours a day, 6 days a week! They want a physician to be there for 72 hours weekly while doing little. We probably spend about 30 minutes per month directly on a patient's care with the regular visits. Nephrology does not get paid to do more beyond the 4 visits that can be billed or the medical directorship fees. Therefore, the dialysis clinic would have to compensate the physician for his time spent (wasted). Currently, it is against the rules to see one's own patients at a dialysis clinic so there is not a world where one could be present for dialysis and keep on doing other work. I also would not expect a physician to happily increase his regular outpatient work week to 70+ hours (including Saturdays!).

It's crazy. Dialysis patients are at risk of complications, but dialysis clinics are not hospitals or EDs or urgent care clinics. They have training to do dialysis on stable patients and to provide some emergent care that any typical clinic would provide. Think medications for anaphylaxis or code carts. If a patient is unwell, they are sent to the ED by family if okay or ambulance if not. I am not sure what they expect physicians to really do. There is a lot of concern in the bill about infection, but there are protocols to evaluate and address that. Sick? ED->hospitalization->antibiotics, etc. They can send off cultures if there is "suspicion" based on appearance but no overt findings for acute illness. What am is a doc supposed to do in clinic if he/she thinks someone has bacteremia? Does a physician need to be there for a code that happens once a year? Bleeding concerns? The dialysis staff have more training to manage that than I do. I think whatever could be gained by having physicians readily available will be lost by magnitudes for patients on PD/HHD, with CKD in clinic, with transplants who are losing their physicians to this black hole for time. There will be a physician shortage undoubtedly.

There is also some odd language regarding payment for dialysis that I do not really understand the purpose. They are concerned about patients' ability to pay for dialysis, but dialysis is covered by Medicare. They should know that. None of my patients are paying for treatment out of pocket. Medication can be a challenge, but that is a different issue and as far as I can tell not really addressed by this initiative. I have to think they are strong-arming the dialysis companies to eat the cost for illegal immigrants who are ESRD. That's not actually that bad if they paid the clinics for it. There is enough data to show patients do better, and it is cheaper to go ahead and treat them routinely rather than let them crash into the ED/hospital for urgent dialysis.

At the end of the day, it feels like they are trying to stick it to the dialysis companies who will lose money but so will physicians, and patients will lose access to their nephrologists as well.
 
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It seems really bad.

Thanks for the insight, that's what I needed to hear. I shall vote No!

The problem is, the way that it's worded, the lay public will think this a good thing ("of course we want a doctor on site") and vote for it. Question is, how are they dialysis centers going to react if it's actually implemented.
 
Thanks for the insight, that's what I needed to hear. I shall vote No!

The problem is, the way that it's worded, the lay public will think this a good thing ("of course we want a doctor on site") and vote for it. Question is, how are they dialysis centers going to react if it's actually implemented.

I imagine they would try to stretch the exception as much as possible. It will probably be easy to show physician shortage (because there will be). They could just pay people to be there, but again, not much bang for the buck for that plan. The wording of the bill makes it more difficult to outright close clinics. That is intentionally included as I imagine they expect backlash. That would be bad. Patients have to get their treatments somewhere, and the remaining clinics would likely not be able to absorb the orphaned patients. There is already an expectation that patients should not have to travel very far for their treatments so that would be disrupted. They could add on later shifts. Perhaps there would be more nocturnal HD, but they would still need docs to be there.

There is no easy solution. Even if the bill went exactly how they wanted where physicians are just there and eat dirt or the corporations compensate docs for their time, the workforce is not there. Docs don't grow on trees. I think if this goes through, California will be the guinea pig that everyone else can watch as a failed experiment.
 
I dunno if this really makes a difference but does it actually require the physician to be a nephrologist? I’m trying to think of some outside the box speciality that could combo with a dialysis unit.

Hell maybe they could just plop a reading room down and have some Rads practice be “present” on site! (Yes that’s a joke)
 
I dunno if this really makes a difference but does it actually require the physician to be a nephrologist? I’m trying to think of some outside the box speciality that could combo with a dialysis unit.

Hell maybe they could just plop a reading room down and have some Rads practice be “present” on site! (Yes that’s a joke)

Just licensed physician. I guess they could try to coax retired nephrologists into having a cush job for some money.
 
I imagine they would try to stretch the exception as much as possible. It will probably be easy to show physician shortage (because there will be). They could just pay people to be there, but again, not much bang for the buck for that plan. The wording of the bill makes it more difficult to outright close clinics. That is intentionally included as I imagine they expect backlash. That would be bad. Patients have to get their treatments somewhere, and the remaining clinics would likely not be able to absorb the orphaned patients. There is already an expectation that patients should not have to travel very far for their treatments so that would be disrupted. They could add on later shifts. Perhaps there would be more nocturnal HD, but they would still need docs to be there.

There is no easy solution. Even if the bill went exactly how they wanted where physicians are just there and eat dirt or the corporations compensate docs for their time, the workforce is not there. Docs don't grow on trees. I think if this goes through, California will be the guinea pig that everyone else can watch as a failed experiment.
Or just open a clinic inside the dialysis center. That way the nephrologist is on site but still seeing their regular patients. Seems like the easiest way around this.
 
Heck this is California, just get some wackadoo “Nathropathic physician” to be on site and hand out licorice or whatever!
 
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Or just open a clinic inside the dialysis center. That way the nephrologist is on site but still seeing their regular patients. Seems like the easiest way around this.

It is currently against the rules to see CKD patients at a dialysis center. This is mostly at the level of the corporation as it does not want a private practice doing its own work on their dialysis center property. They could change that at their level, but I also feel like there might be some regulations at the federal/Medicare level that I am not quite remembering. And the buildings do not typically have space for what one would need to see clinic patients there as that is not their purpose. They would have to expand/model most of their buildings. Also think about needing to have a 12 hr clinic day. Also think about being there on Saturdays.

If it did pass, this approach would be on the table, but it is a logistical nightmare.
 
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This is another creative use of the proposition system by SEIU as a negotiation tactic. They file these propositions that “sound good” but are primarily just designed to cost corporations money and to show their power for when they negotiate contracts.

They have been trying to unionize dialysis workers without success so far so that’s why they are going after the dialysis center cabal.


 
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This is another creative use of the proposition system by SEIU as a negotiation tactic. They file these propositions that “sound good” but are primarily just designed to cost corporations money and to show their power for when they negotiate contracts.

They have been trying to unionize dialysis workers without success so far so that’s why they are going after the dialysis center cabal.



Yeah, pretty much.

BTW has anybody in California gotten their ballots yet? It would be nice if we could discuss the physician-related propositions, maybe here on this thread. Admittedly I haven't read up on them too much, I intend to, but I don't want to make any bonehead choices.
 
Yeah, pretty much.

BTW has anybody in California gotten their ballots yet? It would be nice if we could discuss the physician-related propositions, maybe here on this thread. Admittedly I haven't read up on them too much, I intend to, but I don't want to make any bonehead choices.
Feel free to discuss them, just not in this forum. I think Topic in Healthcare or the Sociopolitical forums would be the most appropriate. I could probably even support it in Practicing Physicians. But not IM or Gen Res.
 
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This is another creative use of the proposition system by SEIU as a negotiation tactic. They file these propositions that “sound good” but are primarily just designed to cost corporations money and to show their power for when they negotiate contracts.

They have been trying to unionize dialysis workers without success so far so that’s why they are going after the dialysis center cabal.



Ah, I blew past that to look at the initiative text itself. This really pulls the situation together.
 
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