Private practice "rankings"

[Haybrant]

Nailed it. Quality PP jobs want someone with ties to the region and the 3 A's. Why pay money to ASTRO to post a quality job when you can get a great candidate through word of mouth and connections that will be what you are looking for?

You’ll get those quality PP jobs if you fit a certain mold. We all know that. And that mold won’t include 95% of people here. So for that 95% yes it is impossible, acting like they have some chance is much more irresponsible. Go into a field where you’ll be recruited not trying to find some shadow perfect job out there which essentially doesn’t exist. The NYC jobs that were posted were utter crap, the Rush job was for over an hour outside the city

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[scarbrtj]

Laredo TX (been posted for years)

Entr'acte.

Atlanta has an opening.

Atlanta has an opening?! About 5 million in the metro area and one opening. Neat. The Lakers need a point guard. I think I'll apply for both. #hyperbole

 

[nkmiami]

A job market that functions off of opaque things like "word of mouth" and "better networking" ect is a sign of a dysfunctional job market where sellers significantly out number the buyers. Its a sign/symptoms of a maldistribution. There is no reason for the rad onc job market to function like that except for that reason.

As far as these rural location jobs that are out there post your CV to one of those recruiter websites and it will get passed around you'll start getting those emails as well. Today's email from a recruiter states they have jobs in Grand Forks ND, Sandusky OH (been posted for years), Midland MI, Martinsville VA, Laredo TX (been posted for years), Carlsbad NM (been posted for years), Vincennes IN, Watertown NY.

What is relevant is the collective job market. If every resident networks from day one, nails the 3 As, writes many papers, spends extra effort ingratiating themselves to their attendings, not a single additional job will be created. The solution to a poor job market is not that all residents need to just "try" harder. Zero sum game here. This is beyond magical thinking and akin to when some were denying that law of supply and demand impacts radiation.

 

[medgator]

You’ll get those quality PP jobs if you fit a certain mold. We all know that. And that mold won’t include 95% of people here. So for that 95% yes it is impossible, acting like they have some chance is much more irresponsible. Go into a field where you’ll be recruited not trying to find some shadow perfect job out there which essentially doesn’t exist. The NYC jobs that were posted were utter crap, the Rush job was for over an hour outside the city

Pretty sure the rush job was for chi town with a CNS focus. Are we not reading the same posting?

'radiation OR oncologist OR cns OR STATECODE:"IL"' Jobs | ASTRO Radiation Oncology Career Center

1,312 'radiation OR oncologist OR cns OR STATECODE:

careers.astro.org

Portland?

'radiation OR oncologist OR compass OR oncology OR ptl OR STATECODE:"OR"' Jobs | ASTRO Radiation Oncology Career Center

3,086 'radiation OR oncologist OR compass OR oncology OR ptl OR STATECODE:

careers.astro.org

Tampa? It's a VA job, so it may not be for everyone, but there is an affiliation with the local medical school and NCI designated cc so there is that.

'radiation OR oncologist OR STATECODE:"FL"' Jobs | ASTRO Radiation Oncology Career Center

1,465 'radiation OR oncologist OR STATECODE:

careers.astro.org

I am the first one to admit the job market is unwell, but it ruins SDN credibility when people start lying about what's actually out there

 

[scarbrtj]

What is relevant is the collective job market. If every resident networks from day one, nails the 3 As, writes many papers, spends extra effort ingratiating themselves to their attendings, not a single additional job will be created. The solution to a poor job market is not that all residents need to just "try" harder. Zero sum game here. This is beyond magical thinking and akin to when some were denying that law of supply and demand impacts radiation.

Haha, magical thinking. Associated with schizophrenia... and neuroticism.

 

[medgator]

Besides practicematch and practicelink, what other websites (besides ASTRO) are recommended to check out?

Asco has a site as well

Radiation Oncology jobs

Radiation Oncology jobs. 13 jobs to view and apply for now with ASCO Career Center

careercenter.asco.org

 

[scarbrtj]

Asco has a site as well

Radiation Oncology jobs

Radiation Oncology jobs. 13 jobs to view and apply for now with ASCO Career Center

careercenter.asco.org

ASCO site.

13 radiation oncology jobs listed; about 5000 rad oncs in the U.S.
240 medical oncology jobs listed; about 13000 med oncs in the U.S.

You like statistics? I'll give you statistics folks.

Hypotheses:
1) ASCO is a bad site for rad onc job hunting.
2) All sites are bad for rad onc job hunting.
3) Rad onc is bad for rad onc job hunting.

 

[evilbooyaa]

Besides practicematch and practicelink, what other websites (besides ASTRO) are recommended to check out?

Indeed, LinkedIn immediately come to mind. Not perfect but various sources.

 

[RollTideRadOnc]

I agree with all of that, but I think it’s misleading when people say things like what WFA said but deleted: draw a 2 hour circle around any major city and new grads can’t get any jobs within that perimeter. That’s factually not true at the moment. Sure things could get worse but hyperbole like that discredits the legitimate concerns we all have among the people with power to actually make changes.

The "2 hours around any major city" may be only a slight exaggeration. Jobs in major metro areas are hard for anyone to get, let alone new grads. The only new grads I know of who ended up in major metros all came from Top 10 programs. Period. End of story. There are very few exceptions to this. Therefore, I don't find this statement to be hyperbole in the slightest. This is consistent with the current roster of private practices (and academic centers) in these locations and can be easily verified on their websites.

If people really want to end up in a major coastal city, then they shouldn't enter this field. There are many more equally satisfying specialties with high demand for new grads.

If medical students are in love with RadOnc and truly want to go into it, then they should probably only rank Top 10 programs on their match list. Anything else is really shooting oneself in the foot. Further, even within the Top 10, potential employers often show a big regional bias. Therefore -- if coastal cities are what folks are aiming for -- then going to a "Top 10" program in the South or Midwest is probably inadvisable (unless that program is MDA, which has great name recognition nationally).

 

[nkmiami]

The "2 hours around any major city" may be only a slight exaggeration. Jobs in major metro areas are hard for anyone to get, let alone new grads. The only new grads I know of who ended up in major metros all came from Top 10 programs. Period. End of story. There are very few exceptions to this. Therefore, I don't find this statement to be hyperbole in the slightest. This is consistent with the current roster of private practices (and academic centers) in these locations and can be easily verified on their websites.

If people really want to end up in a major coastal city, then they shouldn't enter this field. There are many more equally satisfying specialties with high demand for new grads.

If medical students are in love with RadOnc and truly want to go into it, then they should probably only rank Top 10 programs on their match list. Anything else is really shooting oneself in the foot. Further, even within the Top 10, potential employers often show a big regional bias. Therefore -- if coastal cities are what folks are aiming for -- then going to a "Top 10" program in the South or Midwest is probably inadvisable (unless that program is MDA, which has great name recognition nationally).

once the salary of a radonc in lets say, omaha, is in the same ball park as IM/family med in omaha, I foresee a complete lack of interest among students if not much extra compensation for the extra 2 years of training, while the opportunity costs of 500,000 compounded over a lifetime/career are huge ( 2years salary IM) Plus, radonc will also be accompanied by lack of mobility.

regarding top ten, if that helps much, it is for first job, and for most of us historically, first job is typically not your last, although likely will change in the coming job market. The problem with that type of stagnation is that when you work for university or hospital, in the past you typically had to interview elsewhere and be ready to leave, to get a raise.

 

[RadOnc37]

Definitely sorry to hear about any struggles in the job hunt for you fellow PGY5s or recent grads looking for a change. Can't encourage you enough to keep your head up and keep networking like mad men/women. There is nothing wrong with checking in with your business contacts every 4-6 months as you enter practice.

For the person who asked about websites, I went a little crazy and used all these (some are super low yield):

Merritt Hopkins

Jackson & Coker

ZRG Partners

AMN Healthcare

Cejka Search

Alliance Recruiting

Mission Search

Virtus Placement

Clinical Professionals Group / cpl.Physicians

Doctor's Choice Placement

Barton Associates

Indeed.com

ASTRO Job Search

PhysEmp

Healthecareers

Practice Link

Practice Match

NEJM

LinkedIn

Glassdoor

DocCafe

Google Job Search

Goldfish Staffing

PostJobsFree

Sorry that pasted so terribly from excel. Once you set up the searches, there is almost no work involved. In the end, I ended up getting a job from a group mentioned on the first page (thank you, stranger, for the compliment to the group) and only got it from networking early. The group will certainly be hiring in the near future, though we won't come close to solving the specialty's desirable city job problem

 

[medgator]

Definitely sorry to hear about any struggles in the job hunt for you fellow PGY5s or recent grads looking for a change. Can't encourage you enough to keep your head up and keep networking like mad men/women. There is nothing wrong with checking in with your business contacts every 4-6 months as you enter practice.

For the person who asked about websites, I went a little crazy and used all these (some are super low yield):

Merritt Hopkins

Jackson & Coker

ZRG Partners

AMN Healthcare

Cejka Search

Alliance Recruiting

Mission Search

Virtus Placement

Clinical Professionals Group / cpl.Physicians

Doctor's Choice Placement

Barton Associates

Indeed.com

ASTRO Job Search

PhysEmp

Healthecareers

Practice Link

Practice Match

NEJM

LinkedIn

Glassdoor

DocCafe

Google Job Search

Goldfish Staffing

PostJobsFree

Sorry that pasted so terribly from excel. Once you set up the searches, there is almost no work involved. In the end, I ended up getting a job from a group mentioned on the first page (thank you, stranger, for the compliment to the group) and only got it from networking early. The group will certainly be hiring in the near future, though we won't come close to solving the specialty's desirable city job problem

Merritt Hawkins I believe. Otherwise great list

 

[Reaganite]

The "2 hours around any major city" may be only a slight exaggeration. Jobs in major metro areas are hard for anyone to get, let alone new grads. The only new grads I know of who ended up in major metros all came from Top 10 programs. Period. End of story. There are very few exceptions to this. Therefore, I don't find this statement to be hyperbole in the slightest. This is consistent with the current roster of private practices (and academic centers) in these locations and can be easily verified on their websites.

If people really want to end up in a major coastal city, then they shouldn't enter this field. There are many more equally satisfying specialties with high demand for new grads.

If medical students are in love with RadOnc and truly want to go into it, then they should probably only rank Top 10 programs on their match list. Anything else is really shooting oneself in the foot. Further, even within the Top 10, potential employers often show a big regional bias. Therefore -- if coastal cities are what folks are aiming for -- then going to a "Top 10" program in the South or Midwest is probably inadvisable (unless that program is MDA, which has great name recognition nationally).

I agree the job market is insane for new grads. There are ridiculous geographic limitations, and you definitely should not go into this field if you must live by or in major metro. This was true when I graduated nearly 10 years ago and obviously hasn't changed. That being said, I have watched many practices in amazing geographies over the past few years hire a whole slew of new graduates not from top 10s. I have several friends not top 10 who got jobs in the absolute best, sunniest, culturally-amazing cities in America. The one thing they all had in common was geographic ties to the area. Most did their residencies close to the area they ended up working. I have personally hired several people to staff some pretty killer geographies, but they all came from local programs. Would I recommend someone with geographic restrictions go into this field? Hell no. But there are new grads getting jobs in good geographies, and based on what I've seen, location of their program was more important than anything.

 

[medgator]

But there are new grads getting jobs in good geographies, and based on what I've seen, location of their program was more important than anything.

And timing, and connections to the area. I actually graduated from a middle of a road program in the rust belt far away from the sun belt where I now practice. Timing and connections helped me get my freestanding pp job an hour outside a major metro.

In some respects, getting a good job in RO is kinda like playing the lottery, except you can improve your chances to some degree

 

[scarbrtj]

Radiation oncology. We are #1. Literally...

 

[Neuronix]

That one job probably isn't real. It's for something very specific at a high level.

At many institutions to hire someone or get promoted the job has to be posted publicly to claim that a nationwide search was conducted and nobody more qualified than the person at hand was identified. This accounts for a decent percentage of the jobs posted on these websites.

 

[thecarbonionangle]

I find that some Job postings are old and just outdated. Some don't specify so once you apply you are told "We are not looking for someone right out of residency". Or they want someone right now, or they don't even respond or contact you.
Right now there are multiple RURAL jobs which they cannot fill, many of the same names thrown around here, surprisingly not seeing Salina KS (maybe soon?), rural NM or surrounding states at the moment are there. I've been emailed by a job in a "non-desirable" city, still a mid-size city, but have not heard back. None of these jobs are "academic". There's a few "academic satellite" jobs out there also in rural areas.

Experience is limited so far and early still, but so far what I'm observing..... I'll update my experience as I have more to share....
BTW ASTRO job site is down? is it just me? It keeps giving me an error despite trying multiple computers and my phone...

 

[xrthopeful]

I find that some Job postings are old and just outdated. Some don't specify so once you apply you are told "We are not looking for someone right out of residency". Or they want someone right now, or they don't even respond or contact you.

Welcome to the real world. Searching for a job is work and is about being persistent. This is what everyone else in the world deals with, it just seems weird maybe to you because applying to college, medical school, and residency was 'organized' with deadlines and a common application system and 'rules'

 

[Neuronix]

it just seems weird maybe to you

It does seem weird to me.

Just about any other specialty in medicine has recruiters constantly calling and e-mailing them, and people are practically begging you to come work for them. Like the med onc grads I know getting recruited the second they stepped into fellowship.

Survey: Newly Trained Physicians Swamped With Job Choices

/PRNewswire/ -- Finding a job is not the challenge for newly trained physicians, a new survey suggests. Choosing from among dozens or even over 100 job options...

www.prnewswire.com

Also, I used to work in tech before this whole med school thing. I have a lot of friends in tech. Most of them don't make as much as I do, but they can get a decent job in almost any location. They also don't have to beg for jobs. They also have at most a college degree. I know people who get straight up fired for stuff that would probably cost me my entire career and end up making 6 figures next month in a new gig right in their area.

 

[xrthopeful]

I regularly get recruitment emails. I don’t know know why you don’t. Others in this thread also get emails.


Obviously Rad Onc is a small field and jobs don’t grow on trees. That fact is smack dab in the FAQ at the top of the forum from a decade ago. That has never changed. Every single person who entered this field in the last decade plus knows this.

 

[nkmiami]

once the salary of a radonc in lets say, omaha, is in the same ball park as IM/family med in omaha, I foresee a complete lack of medical interest among students when there is not much extra compensation for the extra 2 years of training, while the opportunity costs of 500,000 amortized over a lifetime are huge ( 2years salary IM) Plus, radonc will also be accompanied by lack of mobility.

Welcome to the real world. Searching for a job is work and is about being persistent. This is what everyone else in the world deals with, it just seems weird maybe to you because applying to college, medical school, and residency was 'organized' with deadlines and a common application system and 'rules'

in the real world, medstudents actually have choices re specialty selection and supply and demand is very much alive. You are basically arguing that if they don’t want to struggle for a job they should select another specialy where they

 

[xrthopeful]

Idk what you are talking about. Look at the post I replied to and what’s i quoted. That user was saying that some places wont reply and some will say not the right timing etc.

all I’m saying is YES. That’s the case and what I i learned going through the job process is not to expect ‘confirmarion emails’ and status updates and stuff like when we applied for every other step of this pathway. That’s it.

 

[PleaseRemainCalm]

Just about any other specialty in medicine has recruiters constantly calling and e-mailing them, and people are practically begging you to come work for them. Like the med onc grads I know getting recruited the second they stepped into

It was very jarring to learn that and that occasionally people in other specialties can sign contracts and be paid monthly in residency on retainer while they wait for you to graduate! Obviously these must be outliers but still, the recruitment process in other fields is a lot more proactive.

 

[deleted947887]

It was very jarring to learn that and that occasionally people in other specialties can sign contracts and be paid monthly in residency on retainer while they wait for you to graduate! Obviously these must be outliers but still, the recruitment process in other fields is a lot more proactive.

Jarring, obviously, proactive.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and guess you're either a chair or program director.

 

[deleted947887]

The take home is apply to rad onc only if you have a father in the field.

 

[medgator]

Also, I used to work in tech before this whole med school thing. I have a lot of friends in tech. Most of them don't make as much as I do, but they can get a decent job in almost any location. They also don't have to beg for jobs. They also have at most a college degree. I know people who get straight up fired for stuff that would probably cost me my entire career and end up making 6 figures next month in a new gig right in their area.

I know someone who had to move with their spouse in tech and was more restricted because of that. Harder to find tech jobs in more rural areas where there seem to be the best RO jobs now

 

[Neuronix]

I shouldn't have brought another career choice into this discussion.

I just feel like I'm being gaslighted when people say "well in the real world you need to really market yourself for jobs." Almost no other field of medicine has a job market that's as bad as ours. I have friends and family members in most other specialties. What our graduating residents or anyone else looking for jobs experience is not at all like other fields.

 

[Haybrant]

Radiation oncology. We are #1. Literally...

Hahaha, literally 1. 200 new grads coming in, 1 job opening. Still time to bail on this sinking ship newbies. Or or you can send emails and find jobs that aren’t advertised bc that works wonderfully!

 

[xrthopeful]

Hahaha, literally 1. 200 new grads coming in, 1 job opening. Still time to bail on this sinking ship newbies.

This is such an intellectually dishonest post.

 

[medgator]

I shouldn't have brought another career choice into this discussion.

I just feel like I'm being gaslighted when people say "well in the real world you need to really market yourself for jobs." Almost no other field of medicine has a job market that's as bad as ours. I have friends and family members in most other specialties. What our graduating residents or anyone else looking for jobs experience is not at all like other fields.

Honestly, you could do all the networking you want and the 3 A's and still end up with a **** job. Which is pretty much what happened to me when I took my first job out of training. So much is up to timing and chance.

It was never truly easy to get a great job in a tolerable location when we were graduating 110 a year....

 

[nkmiami]

I think the point is to compare radiation with some of the other specialties.

 

[scarbrtj]

Haha let’s be REALLY intellectually dishonest. Saw this at the Atlanta Civil Rights Museum. Criteria for a potentially repressed people or people at risk for losing human rights:
GHETTOIZATION: This one pretty self evident with geographic relegation to the boonies etc
LABELING /DEFAMATION: SDNers called misanthropes. Ed Halperin in recent editorial said other docs call the rad onc the “clinical bottom dwelling catfish.”
STOCKPILING: The arms race in rad onc. Protons obviously. “Without evidence of” clinical benefit.

Zing

 

[Haybrant]

This is such an intellectually dishonest post.

You’re an intellectually dishonest post. There is 1 job posted there while other specialities have hundreds. Yes obviously there is not 1 job available for Rad oncs but it’s a reflection of the state of the field that we can’t muster more than 1 post, that means availability is dried up. Other fields are posting like mad people even going to JAMA bc it’s a buyers market in those fields not sellers. Entering rad onc is like walking through a minefield in Iraq when you have the option to be lounging in Como. The decision is easy and people early in training would be wise to bail

 

[xrthopeful]

Med Onc has only 5 and ENT has only 8 on there too. I guess people should stay out of those fields too.
It could also be that different fields have different ways jobs are posted and advertised?

Rad Onc has always always always been a small field with Its own way of doing things. THIS IS NOT NEW.

If you think the JAMA site was showing 50 jobs or even 10 jobs in the ‘glory days’ back when we were graduating 140 residents a year, then you need a reality check.

 

[Haybrant]

Med Onc has only 5 and ENT has only 8 on there too. I guess people should stay out of those fields too.
It could also be that different fields have different ways jobs are posted and advertised?

Rad Onc has always always always been a small field with Its own way of doing things. THIS IS NOT NEW.

If you think the JAMA site was showing 50 jobs or even 10 jobs in the ‘glory days’ back when we were graduating 140 residents a year, then you need a reality check.

Go to indeed and prove me wrong. Go ahead. Oh right, jobs aren’t posted on indeed either just word of mouth bc they are soooo good, like recruiting for google CEO or something

 

[medgator]

Go to indeed and prove me wrong. Go ahead. Oh right, jobs aren’t posted on indeed either just word of mouth bc they are soooo good, like recruiting for google CEO or something

I already proved you wrong earlier in this thread. Quit the bs please, it isn't helping SDN credibility.

The job market is not well but there are jobs out there, even in major metros like Chicago, Tampa and Portland, if we look just at the ASTRO postings.

I think we can all agree that you pretty much have to be geographically agnostic to apply to the field, esp at this point. It's always been a problem, recently exacerbated by residency expansion.

 

[thecarbonionangle]

I already proved you wrong earlier in this thread. Quit the bs please, it isn't helping SDN credibility.

The job market is not well but there are jobs out there, even in major metros like Chicago, Tampa and Portland, if we look just at the ASTRO postings.

I think we can all agree that you pretty much have to be geographically agnostic to apply to the field, esp at this point. It's always been a problem, recently exacerbated by residency expansion.

I wonder if the "Chicago jobs" are real jobs. As someone pointed out, sometimes these are fake jobs for an internal candidate or a known entity who already has it in the bag for example (is this the case for Rush and Cook Chicago, nobody knows).

Tampa VA job seems legit but its a VA job (ain't nothing like the VA), not for everyone, though it does have an academic affiliation.

Portland job seems like a legit PP, no idea if real job or not though. Agree with what you said.

It seems something is off with the ASTRO site. I have used the same search criteria and same filters and sometimes I can't find the same job which I know is posted, it disappears, then appears back up later when I search for it on google. Site is very unorganized.

 

[medgator]

It seems something is off with the ASTRO site. I have used the same search criteria and same filters and sometimes I can't find the same job which I know is posted, it disappears, then appears back up later when I search for it on google. Site is very unorganized.

It's been garbage off and on over there years, hosting jobs for RNs, hospitalists, janitors etc. Completely unrelated to RO

 

[xrthopeful]

I wonder if the "Chicago jobs" are real jobs. As someone pointed out, sometimes these are fake jobs for an internal candidate or a known entity who already has it in the bag for example (is this the case for Rush and Cook Chicago, nobody knows).

Tampa VA job seems legit but its a VA job (ain't nothing like the VA), not for everyone, though it does have an academic affiliation.

Portland job seems like a legit PP, no idea if real job or not though. Agree with what you said.

It seems something is off with the ASTRO site. I have used the same search criteria and same filters and sometimes I can't find the same job which I know is posted, it disappears, then appears back up later when I search for it on google. Site is very unorganized.

1) It's really only like university or academic-based places that need to post a job when they already have an internal candidiate. so that's not the case for Compass (Portland) or Cook County. The Rush job must be real because they keep posting.

2) Agreed - ASTRO site has been a bit messed up for the past 3-4 days with all sorts of unorganized jumbled jobs. Hopefully will get fixed soon.

 

[RadOnc37]

I wonder if the "Chicago jobs" are real jobs. As someone pointed out, sometimes these are fake jobs for an internal candidate or a known entity who already has it in the bag for example (is this the case for Rush and Cook Chicago, nobody knows).

Tampa VA job seems legit but its a VA job (ain't nothing like the VA), not for everyone, though it does have an academic affiliation.

Portland job seems like a legit PP, no idea if real job or not though. Agree with what you said.

Can only speak for my n=1, but like you are inferring, I didn't have great success last year when emailing about the posted jobs. Couldn't figure out if some of them were real. That said, there was a very legit private practice job in Chicago this year, and a great job in Tampa, and Portland, NYC, Indianapolis, DC, Charlotte, Atlanta x2, Orlando, Birmingham, Nashville x2, Knoxville, Dallas, Houston, and on (no disrespect to those not mentioned, of course). I found almost none of that specific list on the job sites. For what it's worth for the next year's crop: I listed every city I'd consider living in, used Google to research every radonc center within those cities, wrote down the names of the decision makers in the group and searched the web for everything I could find on those people, wrote emails and made phones to establish a connection, and followed up every 1-2 months if they weren't yet sure if they'd be hiring for my year. Take notes after every conversation you have. If you don't hear back the first time from an email, wait 2-3 weeks and try again. I also recommend working together with someone on it if you have a friend in the job hunt at the same time - if not you, who better to take the desirable job than your friend (there's certainly more competition out there than that). I worked with a friend and learned of some additional opportunities that way. I'm not from a top 10 program, but, probably because of networking early, I felt very competitive in the job hunt for each job I considered. To be honest, I thought that the hardest thing to compete with was the board certified physician interested in taking a position off-cycle (by that I mean, starting at a time other than July-Sept), but even that is not insurmountable. Like I mentioned in a previous post, don't sweat it too much if you don't get one specific job - sometimes it's just not meant to be, and you can try again later, but keep an open mind and apply broadly. I guarantee you that, if bundled payments go live, a lot of the old docs teetering on the brink of retirement will hang up their gloves, opening up new jobs in many desirable cities. Of course, our declining salaries is a whole other topic discussed in detail elsewhere on this forum...

 

[Neuronix]

I can verify that the Rush job is real. I don't know any details.

The Tampa VA job is "academic" in that they get an occasional resident from the USF program. That's about it. VA jobs are usually pretty light in volume and stable with low pay (for rad onc), good benefits, and tons of beuracracy.

I can vouch for the job market being mostly unadvertised nowadays. Residents know they need to market themselves heavily. Therefore, good private groups get 40-100+ applications per year unsolicited (depending on location/visibility). Academic places are the same. When it's time to hire, they often just interview from what they've already been sent, although many academic places are required to post their positions publicly by admin. Also some academic places are required to post positions to hire internally or promote someone, so you never know what's real or what isn't. Hence it's impossible to analyze the job market based on job site posts (though clearly someone published on that anyway...).

That written, why not post on ASTRO? It's not very expensive, and you can get 200 applications for a single position. Even rural will generally get dozens of applications. The biggest issues are filtering them all and figuring out who's serious. Certainly the best positions don't need to advertise, and a lot of toxic places always seem to be hiring since they can't keep people and they get bad reputations as a result. That's nothing new of course.

The issue I have with radonc37's post is, ok so you found 15 jobs unadvertised across the country. How many are there? Are there 200? I seriously doubt there was anywhere close to 200 on the ASTRO site. How will we know when there are not enough jobs for our grads?

I've written previously that I know people who graduated residency into locums, fellowship, etc against their will after searching large areas of the country. The job market worsens every year. Even the locums market is in decline. This is a gradual issue so the we're not going to wake up one morning in a crisis, but the trend is clearly there.

So I worry--how many unemployed or underemployed rad oncs will be enough to convince the leadership to do something? How many years will it be until we get a graduating class survey back that shows that the "sky has fallen"? How long after the data truly sours will it take to know about it? How long will it take to respond, and what will happen to the 200 residents per year in the pipeline even if we do decide to contract (which currently seems very unlikely)?

 

[thecarbonionangle]

Many of these “leaders” don’t care because they fill and their residents get jobs because they place them. Only when these institution’s residents cannot get job will they maybe notice, and it will be too late.

 

[xrthopeful]

The sky will have fallen when residents actually have to start taking fellowships. Has not happened yet.

Neuronix - 2019 was a quite good year. Not to take away from your post, but you said it worsens every year, this was not the case this year. I truly wish the best to my 2020 colleagues.

 

[xrthopeful]

That written, why not post on ASTRO? It's not very expensive, and you can get 200 applications for a single position.

From a well-established practice's point of view - WHY do they want to deal with 200 applications? That sounds like a complete nightmare. From our point of view as job-seekers, yeah would love to know about every opportunity, but that makes no sense for them. They want someone good and someone they can trust. Going through 200 applications and then finding time to talk to a few dozen of them becomes a full time job that people don't want to deal with unless they have to.

Just ask Gfunk.

 

[Neuronix]

The sky will have fallen when residents actually have to start taking fellowships. Has not happened yet.

Or locums. And that has absolutely happened. It has been happening for years. It's just a question of how many people, and how broad was their search that led them into a fellowship or locums.

Neuronix - 2019 was a banner year. Not to take away from your post, but you said it worsens every year, this was not the case this year. I truly wish the best to my 2020 colleagues.

Anecdote is anecdote. 2019 was worse for the people I know, though not everyone. This is what I meant in my prior post. The data we have is several years old and wasn't even promising at that time.

Just ask Gfunk.

Again?

Typical salary for this situation?

Will graduate next summer and started job hunting. I really appreciate if some one could tell the typical salary for the following situation: 1. location: no west and east coast, no florida, no coast line, no big city and major city 2. location: at small-medium size city or small town, or rural...

forums.studentdoctor.net

 

[medgator]

The sky will have fallen when residents actually have to start taking fellowships. Has not happened yet.

Neuronix - 2019 was a quite good year. Not to take away from your post, but you said it worsens every year, this was not the case this year. I truly wish the best to my 2020 colleagues.

How do you define that? I know the southeast market decently well and I know the market is pretty tight.

I know people taking fellowships back a few years ago even, waiting for a decent FL job to open up

 

[RadOnc37]

The issue I have with radonc37's post is, ok so you found 15 jobs unadvertised across the country. How many are there? Are there 200? I seriously doubt there was anywhere close to 200 on the ASTRO site. How will we know when there are not enough jobs for our grads?

Completely agree with this. Definitely not enough jobs in the cities to sustain all of the new graduates. It is a shame that many of us got into this specialty when the match was very competitive, and then we have to go through it all over again to land a job in a desirable city (whatever that means to you personally). We all know that a good city can have an opening one year and then go another 10-15+ years without an opening. Just wanted to mention those jobs this past year to provide the counterpoint.

 

[medgator]

Just wanted to mention those jobs this past year to provide the counterpoint.

The vast majority of which never made it to the ASTRO site. Another important point. ASTROs site is becoming less relevant than it was to find good jobs

 

[scarbrtj]

Completely agree with this. Definitely not enough jobs in the cities to sustain all of the new graduates. It is a shame that many of us got into this specialty when the match was very competitive, and then we have to go through it all over again to land a job in a desirable city (whatever that means to you personally). We all know that a good city can have an opening one year and then go another 10-15+ years without an opening. Just wanted to mention those jobs this past year to provide the counterpoint.

The vast majority of which never made it to the ASTRO site. Another important point. ASTROs site is becoming less relevant than it was to find good jobs

Ah the halcyon days. Sorry... like everything, even that phrase has been perverted.
Correction sir: ASTRO not a site to find good *MD* jobs. Still good for the janitor jobs, RNs, PAs, NPs, dosimetrists, therapists, physicists, administrators, billing specialists, research coordinators...

 

[radiation]

I shouldn't have brought another career choice into this discussion.

I just feel like I'm being gaslighted when people say "well in the real world you need to really market yourself for jobs." Almost no other field of medicine has a job market that's as bad as ours. I have friends and family members in most other specialties. What our graduating residents or anyone else looking for jobs experience is not at all like other fields.

This is not accurate if you compare job prospects to other specialties doing an apples to apples comparison of graduates coming straight out of residency training (without fellowship). It would be just as difficult (if not more) to find a cush metropolitan job coming straight out of a radiology, pathology, optho, or orthopedics etc residency without doing a fellowship. 25% of pathologists do double fellowships, 10% of radiologists. Many of the other specialties have accepted that fellowship training is necessary in most cases to get a desirable job. I hope it never gets to that point in rad onc, but lets at least be fair in the comparisons.