I have done a few searches, but haven't found anything. I have always wanted to be a prison psychiatrist, but with some real face time with patients. I look on different sites for jobs, and it seems like the prisons only have psychologist. Most of the psychiatrist jobs are temporary. My question is is there a fellowship for addiction/forensic psych. Was thinking I could develop some drug treatment programs and have face time. At the same time be able to administer meds when neccesary. Thanks in advance!
Prison Psych???
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There is not combined Addiction/Forensic Fellowship, and even if there was, I don't think it'd save time. I'm currently in a forensic fellowship, and there's plenty of homework in it. I couldn't imagine it being streamlined and still have accreditation.
I don't think an addiction fellowship is necessary if you get the proper training in residency. Any program in an urban area, you going to have plenty of people with substance abuse or dependence problems. The addiction fellowships from my understanding are better for you if you want to pursue an academic or research position for that particular area. Clinically, so long as you keep on top of the data and have good experience, you'll be far ahead of other psychiatrists in this field.
If you want to learn more about prison psychiatry, a forensic fellowship is the way to go. Be mindful of the fellowship because several fellowships will not give you much prison exposure.
A good book to check out is the Handbook of Correctional Mental Health by Charles Scot M.D., and Joan Gerbasi, J.D., M.D.
If you do work in prison, a problem you may face is that most prisons will not pay for the more recently released meds. When I say "recent", I'm talking meds released in the last 20 years...no kidding. Some prisons will only offer the tricyclics, typical antipsychotics, and other extremely cheap meds. Several of them will not even offer the $4 generic meds such as Citalopram.
Whopper, you were someone I was hoping that would answer. I have looked at this site for awhile, so I knew you were one I would love to answer. Another thing is I am a double major non-science, CJ and Psych! I am a non-trad going back after like 10 years, with a GED. I haven't talked to an advisor, honestly, because I feel they will tell me I can't do this. My first semester I have no science classes. Any advise on how to approach an advisor??? Thanks!
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Its been awhile since I've been pre-med or in medschool and things have may changed, though the buzz on the boards seems that things are the same.
It doesn't matter what your major(s) is/are. What matters is you have the pre-med requirements, and have a fairly commendable science and "all others" GPA (all the non science classes). The science classes have to be biological or physical sciences, not social sciences.
If you didn't take any science classes your first year, you're going to have to play catch up. This is possible, though difficult, especially if you're in an educational institution that has a weed out mentality when it comes to pre-meds. (I don't know if you are).
I suggest you space the science classes you wish to take over time so you can handle them. I also suggest that if possible, you take biology or chemistry if you want to catch up. I wouldn't not recommend you take Organic Chem over the summer. I did that, and it was hell.
The pre-med forum could better answer your questions on getting into medical school.
As for approaching an advisor, don't feel any sort of remorse or shame for deciding to go into medical school without any first year science classes. Remember you are the paying customer, the advisor works for you. If you are in a weed out institution, the advisors tend to be a bit condescending to pre-meds. I'd talk to the advisor, and hopefully this advisor will be a good one, but in addition to what the advisor says, double check it with what is mentioned on the forums.
It doesn't matter what your major(s) is/are. What matters is you have the pre-med requirements, and have a fairly commendable science and "all others" GPA (all the non science classes). The science classes have to be biological or physical sciences, not social sciences.
If you didn't take any science classes your first year, you're going to have to play catch up. This is possible, though difficult, especially if you're in an educational institution that has a weed out mentality when it comes to pre-meds. (I don't know if you are).
I suggest you space the science classes you wish to take over time so you can handle them. I also suggest that if possible, you take biology or chemistry if you want to catch up. I wouldn't not recommend you take Organic Chem over the summer. I did that, and it was hell.
The pre-med forum could better answer your questions on getting into medical school.
As for approaching an advisor, don't feel any sort of remorse or shame for deciding to go into medical school without any first year science classes. Remember you are the paying customer, the advisor works for you. If you are in a weed out institution, the advisors tend to be a bit condescending to pre-meds. I'd talk to the advisor, and hopefully this advisor will be a good one, but in addition to what the advisor says, double check it with what is mentioned on the forums.
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I'd echo much of what whopper said, but would strongly recommend you take chemistry first. None of your pre-reqs need to be taken in any particular order, with the exception of Organic Chemistry, which requires a year of Chemistry first. Take Chem first to get it out of the way and have flexibility in later scheduling of your courses, which may be an issue if you're on a crowded campus. Also biology doesn't help you when you take chemistry much, but chemistry helps you a bit with biology.
Post on the pre-med forum to get better and more recent information, though keep in mind that the folks on that forum in particular are stress cases who have unrealistically negative impressions about getting into med school. Most med school related forums seem to have this. I think maybe you get a bigger ego stroke when you get into med school if you build it up as more selective than it is. That sure seems to be the case with a lot of residency sites as well.
The non-trad forum here is very supportive and you'll get lots of encouragement.
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Going into your second year, I'd recommend this breakdown.
Year 2 - Gen Chem, Gen Bio, Chem Lab
Summer - Physics (i did it in the summer, you put the work in, it's not bad)
Year 3 - Organic Chem, Organic Lab
Year 4 - study for MCAT (finish off pre-reqs like Calculus, English, etc...)
if i were in your shoes, I would recommend trying to rock those 4 classes and take the MCAT. whatever you do, have a light as possible class load that 4th year. i waited until after graduation to take the test, and the lack of classes really helped me focus on the MCAT, but in your situation, I'm sure you don't want to take 2 years off after college.
Good Luck Brotha
Year 2 - Gen Chem, Gen Bio, Chem Lab
Summer - Physics (i did it in the summer, you put the work in, it's not bad)
Year 3 - Organic Chem, Organic Lab
Year 4 - study for MCAT (finish off pre-reqs like Calculus, English, etc...)
if i were in your shoes, I would recommend trying to rock those 4 classes and take the MCAT. whatever you do, have a light as possible class load that 4th year. i waited until after graduation to take the test, and the lack of classes really helped me focus on the MCAT, but in your situation, I'm sure you don't want to take 2 years off after college.
Good Luck Brotha
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I'd recommend a slower pace that that. A lot more applications get sunk by people rushing things than do by people taking their time.
I think I will go ahead and take Gen chem in the spring semester. Thanks to all who answered. This site is a god-send. Hopefully chem won't be too much on me, I left school at 16, just going back at 25. Guess that's what tutors are for.
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I just noticed you're in Ohio-which is where I'm at.
The forensic community in this state is quite solid. We got Phil Resnick & Douglas Mossman--2 of the nation's top forensic psychiatrists working here, and both are working & teaching at the 2 forensic fellowships here. The state also has a forensic facility that is gorgeous compared to that in other states. The facility is like a shopping mall (without the stores). Compare that to Ancora hospital in NJ which is just a notch above a dungeon.
While I was in NJ, very few forensic psychiatrists were actively practicing, several running forensic units had no formal forensic education, and there was no fellowship acting a center for forensic psychiatry academics. In fact I was being told under the table that the private forensic psychiatrists were keeping it that way so they could make more money (gossip I know--but the gossip did fit the description of what was going quite well) vs here where I know of dozens of forensic psychiatrists & psychologists using several tesing standards that the few I knew in NJ never used or even heard of them such as the Georgia Competency test or the CAST-MR.
Several of the psychiatrists I've seen doing forensic work in NJ were doing errors which were egregiously wrong. E.g. they'd do an evaluation on someone for the court, and refer to that person they evaluated as a patient. In forensic evaluations you are supposed to be a neutral observer, and tell the person you evaluate that you are not evaluating them under the context of the doctor-patient relationship. If you establish a doctor-patient relationship with someone you evaluate, and tell the court the person's personal data, you could be violating HIPAA regulations. These psychiatrists didn't know that.
The local NJ prisons & jails were sending suicidal prisoners to the local psychiatric units that were non-forensic. They were not equipped to deal with suicidal prisoners well. In Ohio, they send them to a forensic psychiatric unit, where the treatment team know (& are trained) in trying to spot a malingerer simply trying to stay in the hospital while serving their sentence.
(UMDNJ has just started a forensic fellowship, so I hope the situation in NJ improves).
I don't know if that will necessarily help you at your stage, but if you're already interested in forensics, you're well ahead of your colleagues--several of which have no idea they want to do it until their last year of residency.
As for physics, I think that's survivable over the summer if you are good at math & did physics in high school.
The forensic community in this state is quite solid. We got Phil Resnick & Douglas Mossman--2 of the nation's top forensic psychiatrists working here, and both are working & teaching at the 2 forensic fellowships here. The state also has a forensic facility that is gorgeous compared to that in other states. The facility is like a shopping mall (without the stores). Compare that to Ancora hospital in NJ which is just a notch above a dungeon.
While I was in NJ, very few forensic psychiatrists were actively practicing, several running forensic units had no formal forensic education, and there was no fellowship acting a center for forensic psychiatry academics. In fact I was being told under the table that the private forensic psychiatrists were keeping it that way so they could make more money (gossip I know--but the gossip did fit the description of what was going quite well) vs here where I know of dozens of forensic psychiatrists & psychologists using several tesing standards that the few I knew in NJ never used or even heard of them such as the Georgia Competency test or the CAST-MR.
Several of the psychiatrists I've seen doing forensic work in NJ were doing errors which were egregiously wrong. E.g. they'd do an evaluation on someone for the court, and refer to that person they evaluated as a patient. In forensic evaluations you are supposed to be a neutral observer, and tell the person you evaluate that you are not evaluating them under the context of the doctor-patient relationship. If you establish a doctor-patient relationship with someone you evaluate, and tell the court the person's personal data, you could be violating HIPAA regulations. These psychiatrists didn't know that.
The local NJ prisons & jails were sending suicidal prisoners to the local psychiatric units that were non-forensic. They were not equipped to deal with suicidal prisoners well. In Ohio, they send them to a forensic psychiatric unit, where the treatment team know (& are trained) in trying to spot a malingerer simply trying to stay in the hospital while serving their sentence.
(UMDNJ has just started a forensic fellowship, so I hope the situation in NJ improves).
I don't know if that will necessarily help you at your stage, but if you're already interested in forensics, you're well ahead of your colleagues--several of which have no idea they want to do it until their last year of residency.
As for physics, I think that's survivable over the summer if you are good at math & did physics in high school.
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You are all very helpful. Yes, I am thinking of chemistry for spring semester, or maybe biology. I didn't take any science classes of these types in school seeing that I quit very young. I will have a tutor from day one, just so I don't get behind. Yes, whopper I have heard you talk about ohio. I have a 5 yr old, so if I can get into med school in ohio I am hoping to stay for residency and career. Not fair to move him every 4 years. Thanks again!!
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Just an FYI. This theory is not universally accepted in the forensic field. In fact, you'll find some prominent forensic psychiatrists arguing that this, under certain circumstances, is not an ethical violation or outside the scope of common forensic practice. Further, there may even be occassions where a judge orders treatment on a person whom you have evaluated - and assigns that case to you for treatment purposes.
Personally, I'd prefer not to treat those whom I evaluate - but that's for different reasons. In general, they're not the types who'd you want in your PP.
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True, but you and I know that.
In some cases I've seen while back in NJ, the psychiatrist called the person he evaluated his patient because that's the only way he knew to address a person he was working with in a psychiatric sense. In short the psychiatrist only had experience in treating patients, not evaluating people for the court, wanted to jump at an oppurtunity to make some big & quick moolah as an expert witness, but did not know the ethical and legal issues he was facing, or address them. Given the paucity of available trained forensic psychiatrists in that area, I'm speculating that the lawyer who hired him had few choices. That's different than a forensic psychiatrist who knows what's at stake, and has decided on his/her own to treat the person in the context of a doctor-patient relationship despite the possible conflicts of interest.
Where I'm at, if the court assigns a doctor to treat someone, the state will ask a different doctor to evaluate the person to avoid the conflict of interest of establishing a patient/doctor relationship. I know you already know what possible problems could happen, just giving an example for the others on the board who don't work in forensic psychiatry.
E.g. You do a report for the court evaluating if your patient (the guy you're treating) is eligible for the Not Guilty by Reason of Insanity status. After investigating the matter, you believe the patient is not eligible. You inform your patient, and now the guy blows up in anger because your his treating doctor, and he wants your support in building his legal defense. He feels betrayed that he trusted you with treating him but you will not help to defend him legally. Now he does not want you as his treating doctor anymore.
In some cases I've seen while back in NJ, the psychiatrist called the person he evaluated his patient because that's the only way he knew to address a person he was working with in a psychiatric sense. In short the psychiatrist only had experience in treating patients, not evaluating people for the court, wanted to jump at an oppurtunity to make some big & quick moolah as an expert witness, but did not know the ethical and legal issues he was facing, or address them. Given the paucity of available trained forensic psychiatrists in that area, I'm speculating that the lawyer who hired him had few choices. That's different than a forensic psychiatrist who knows what's at stake, and has decided on his/her own to treat the person in the context of a doctor-patient relationship despite the possible conflicts of interest.
Where I'm at, if the court assigns a doctor to treat someone, the state will ask a different doctor to evaluate the person to avoid the conflict of interest of establishing a patient/doctor relationship. I know you already know what possible problems could happen, just giving an example for the others on the board who don't work in forensic psychiatry.
E.g. You do a report for the court evaluating if your patient (the guy you're treating) is eligible for the Not Guilty by Reason of Insanity status. After investigating the matter, you believe the patient is not eligible. You inform your patient, and now the guy blows up in anger because your his treating doctor, and he wants your support in building his legal defense. He feels betrayed that he trusted you with treating him but you will not help to defend him legally. Now he does not want you as his treating doctor anymore.
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I hear ya.
How's forensic fellowship going.
It's a completely different animal from clinical psychiatry, isn't it?
It's like part law school, part psychiatry, part graduate school.
How's forensic fellowship going.
It's a completely different animal from clinical psychiatry, isn't it?
It's like part law school, part psychiatry, part graduate school.
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So what is the person being evaluated supposed to be referred to as?
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Loving the fellowship, but the fact that there's a great forensic psychiatric infrastructure makes me wonder if I'll be a small fish in a big pond if I stay.
Saw Resnick go over a case a few days ago. The guy knows his stuff, and knows how to throw a joke just at the right moment to keep things entertaining.
I've been assigned to do a psychological autopsy today by one of the nation's top guys. I'm sure the case isn't big (heck I'm a fellow), but to be offered this work with this guy, and to be doing an autopsy (which he claims no program will allow fellows to do) makes me feel like I'm in the right place.
A doc working on a case at the Institute of Psychiatry and the Law was mentioning some of the specifics of some of the cases--several of them are nationally known.
A doctor I highly respect from the residency program where I trained called me up a few days ago (just after I bought a house here), and told me they'd love to have me back. Wow, just the thing to screw with my head because they'd give me a job I'd love to have. Would love that job back in NJ, but I wouldn't be doing forensic work.
Only complaint I got is I'm doing a heck of a lot of moonlighting, and between the fellowship, the moonlighting and the homework, its a lot of work. Its too much, but I can't get out of the moonlighting because I'd be abandoning my patients there if I duck out of it. I guess I'll just have to rough it out for the rest of the year, and give up working out.
Saw Resnick go over a case a few days ago. The guy knows his stuff, and knows how to throw a joke just at the right moment to keep things entertaining.
I've been assigned to do a psychological autopsy today by one of the nation's top guys. I'm sure the case isn't big (heck I'm a fellow), but to be offered this work with this guy, and to be doing an autopsy (which he claims no program will allow fellows to do) makes me feel like I'm in the right place.
A doc working on a case at the Institute of Psychiatry and the Law was mentioning some of the specifics of some of the cases--several of them are nationally known.
A doctor I highly respect from the residency program where I trained called me up a few days ago (just after I bought a house here), and told me they'd love to have me back. Wow, just the thing to screw with my head because they'd give me a job I'd love to have. Would love that job back in NJ, but I wouldn't be doing forensic work.
Only complaint I got is I'm doing a heck of a lot of moonlighting, and between the fellowship, the moonlighting and the homework, its a lot of work. Its too much, but I can't get out of the moonlighting because I'd be abandoning my patients there if I duck out of it. I guess I'll just have to rough it out for the rest of the year, and give up working out.
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Forgot to answer the question, sorry.
Depends on what context.
E.g. if the person is a defendant, you call that person the defendant.
I see "patients" once every 2 weeks for the probate (aka involuntary commitment) court. In the particular county I work in, a neutral psychiatrist evaluates those who have been peititioned to be involuntarily committed, I review the case, interview the person, talk to their treatment team, and I give an opinion to the court. Its helpful because it avoids a situation where the treating doctor is called to the stand, and that doctor's patient sees the doctor say things which will upset that person. It also gives the court a neutral observer. I've seen several cases where doctors are playing CYA medicine too strongly and will not discharge anyone, but in other courts, they do not have the luxury of a neutral psychiatrist to give an opinion. This can put a lot of stress on a judge who smells something fishy, but does not have psychiatric expertise. In this case we call the person in question an evaluee.
Mossman, my program director said in his opinion there's no conflict of interest if you are treating a patient, and write a court report so long as both roles are in the patient's clear interest. E.g. you do an evaluation for guardianship, and you are their treating doctor. However in cases where there can be foreseeable conflicts with the doctor-patient relationship, he advised me to never get yourself in a position where you may have the mix the two together.
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Yup, that's basically how it works. Sounds like you and I were on the same schedule.
They're desparate for forensic work in NJ. I know the name of a guy that will hook you up in the Jersey jail system. Let me know if you need it. Being that you did training there, you might know him already. You can do both if that's really what you want.
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Yup, that's basically how it works. Sounds like you and I were on the same schedule.
They're desparate for forensic work in NJ. I know the name of a guy that will hook you up in the Jersey jail system. Let me know if you need it. Being that you did training there, you might know him already. You can do both if that's really what you want.
Not sure I wanted to know how well-connected our Senior Mod is in Jersey...
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Oh yeah, I know. I think I know who that guy is. If we're thinking of the same guy, he's now the PD of the new forensic fellowship that started at UMDNJ. NJ is in sore need of REAL forensic psychiatrists. Not ones running a forensic unit that don't have forensic training, or ones working as hired guns for the defense. I've seen too much of that while I was in NJ.
If I go back to NJ, I already know where I'll go, and it won't be to the jail system. The old program called me up and offered me a job, and that's the first place I'd consider. For now though the wife firmly wants to stay in the Cincinnati area.
I'm sure as heck not well connected, but some buddies of mine in college were. They were the sons or daughters of mobsters. My brother's art teacher got into a bad car accident with a mobster's son (was the son's fault--he was drunk driving), and the son died in the accident. Yeah well let's just say the mobster didn't care who's fault it was. He made that art teacher's life heck for years (ransacked his home, killed his pets etc).
If you're in north Jersey, and you actually leave your home on a daily basis, every once in awhile (like every other day), you'll see a guy who could pass for a mobster. Some overweight guy who looks Italian, and does full justice to the stereotype--wearing a big fat gold ring on each finger, has a gold medallion, has a leather jacket, and when you talk to him every 20 words contain a "hey you", "forget about it", "badda-bing" or something along those lines. I'm not joking.
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