PreDent to Pharmacy?

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future smile fixer

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Hi all, I'm currently a pre dental student rethinking dentistry and considering pharmacy.

I'm rethinking denitstry because a 400k debit is really unappealing to me and honestly I'm just trying to practice my art without the bureaucracy that comes with it. I don't think I can balance a family with a career in dentistry either.

That being said, I am looking into pharmacy (I'm a rising senior, if I do switch career plans, I'd graduate, take my PCAT early next summer, apply to school by the deadline). Can I get some insight as to why I should/shouldn't pursue Pharmacy?

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Why you shouldn’t pursue pharmacy:

Still a lot of debt - often over $200k

Saturated job market with rising unemployment and hours and hourly rates being cut. Pharmacy chains are closing down schools while record numbers of new grads flood the market each tear.

You get treated as a fast food or assembly line worker in most of the jobs available to pharmacists

There are much better professions out there, i.e. computer programming, finance, accounting, engineering, etc that pay as well as pharmacy if not better without you having to take out $200k+ in loans and spend another 4 years of your life in school.
 
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I'm just trying to practice my art without the bureaucracy that comes with it
Then pharmacy is literally the last healthcare career you should consider. We are the most regulated profession - ruled by laws and policies from the FDA, DEA, USP, in addition to company policies, state board laws, insurance issues, etc. Dentists can still successfully run their own practice, meanwhile independent pharmacies are on a steady decline. For-profit corporations have taken over and when you work for them you'll have to answer to meeting metrics such as script goals, immunization goals, making a certain number of phone calls per day, etc. while at the same time you have no power over how many tech hours you are allotted. On reimbursement side, PBMs have taken over and it is now an oligopoly where 3 companies - OptumRx, CVS caremark, and ExpressScripts - own over 90% of the market. If they decide to reimburse you less than what you paid to buy a medication, then you're dispensing meds at a loss. Nothing you can do about it other than turn patients away. Then of course there's the declining job market and saturation, but you'll see that's like every other posts on here or you can even check out our own dedicated job market subforum (only profession on SDN with its own job market subforum!)
 
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I do not think you should go for pharmacy. You should read do some searches for saturation and jobs in pharmacy and you will see why not.

TLDR:: too many schools/too many grads, huge loans, fewer jobs, lower wages.
 
Hi all, I'm currently a pre dental student rethinking dentistry and considering pharmacy.

I'm rethinking denitstry because a 400k debit is really unappealing to me and honestly I'm just trying to practice my art without the bureaucracy that comes with it. I don't think I can balance a family with a career in dentistry either.

That being said, I am looking into pharmacy (I'm a rising senior, if I do switch career plans, I'd graduate, take my PCAT early next summer, apply to school by the deadline). Can I get some insight as to why I should/shouldn't pursue Pharmacy?

Pros: Easier admissions

Cons: Lowered salaries that don’t keep up with inflation, more graduates than fulltime employment, metrics that cause higher chances of burn-out, uneven ratio of higher student loans that declining salaries cannot keep up with, chances of lower salary with specialized residency training vs less training working straight retail with little tech help...

If loans and avoiding bureaucracy is why your running from dentistry, wait until you see what pharmacy has in store for you ;)
 
Don't do that
Hi all, I'm currently a pre dental student rethinking dentistry and considering pharmacy.

I'm rethinking denitstry because a 400k debit is really unappealing to me and honestly I'm just trying to practice my art without the bureaucracy that comes with it. I don't think I can balance a family with a career in dentistry either.

That being said, I am looking into pharmacy (I'm a rising senior, if I do switch career plans, I'd graduate, take my PCAT early next summer, apply to school by the deadline). Can I get some insight as to why I should/shouldn't pursue Pharmacy?
 
OP- I'd get that head injury looked at if I were you, Wouldn't want the damage to become permanent and affect your judgement long term like that...
 
If you we’re once interested in Dent, I’d look into Podiatry schools.

Lots of similarities like:
being an autonomous provider,
working in a very procedural heavy environment
Gross body parts
Ability to be your own boss/open up a practice
Etc.

There isn’t nearly the saturation problem in podiatry as there is in Pharmacy. In fact, the job market seems to be just barley absorbing new grads as old pods retire, and if they don’t increase class size or build new schools, could be a great little hidden profession. You’ll make about what a dentist makes (130-150k) starting out and it’s hard for robots to replace doctors who do procedural based things. NPs and PAs are busy trying to get more of the specialty pie and overlook feet, and if they do break into it, they will never be able to cut and do surgery, so a portion of work is safe.
 
Hi all, I'm currently a pre dental student rethinking dentistry and considering pharmacy.

I'm rethinking denitstry because a 400k debit is really unappealing to me and honestly I'm just trying to practice my art without the bureaucracy that comes with it. I don't think I can balance a family with a career in dentistry either.

That being said, I am looking into pharmacy (I'm a rising senior, if I do switch career plans, I'd graduate, take my PCAT early next summer, apply to school by the deadline). Can I get some insight as to why I should/shouldn't pursue Pharmacy?

There are many schools that don't cost that much. Apply to lower tuition schools and enjoy a 32 hour work week, autonomy, and making decent money as a dentist.
 
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If you are looking for something still in healthcare, i suggest you take a visit over to reddit. There are a lot of odd jobs that pay as much or more than pharmacists that only requires a bachelors and an extra year or two training school or whatever. Type in high paying jobs or something along the lines of that. I don't remember what I searched but I found quite a few niche jobs that are part of healthcare but are in high demand due to being so niche.
 
Hi all, I'm currently a pre dental student rethinking dentistry and considering pharmacy.

I'm rethinking denitstry because a 400k debit is really unappealing to me and honestly I'm just trying to practice my art without the bureaucracy that comes with it. I don't think I can balance a family with a career in dentistry either.

That being said, I am looking into pharmacy (I'm a rising senior, if I do switch career plans, I'd graduate, take my PCAT early next summer, apply to school by the deadline). Can I get some insight as to why I should/shouldn't pursue Pharmacy?

If you don't think you can balance a family with dentistry where the majority work 8a-4p mon-fri then pharmacy is much worse. You'll work evenings, nights, weekends and holidays. You'll work on school vacation weeks and summers, Thanksgiving and Christmas. Not good for families.
 
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Also- do you like the idea of planning/ reserving your vacations a year or more in advance? That is the norm in retail. Even with the current glut, management acts like its SUCH a hassle to replace a pharmacist (despite the fact that we "contribute nothiing to the store") that it is common to have to pick vacation dates more than a year in advance. Trust me, if you like home/life balance, avoid pharmacy like the plague. There is no respect for anyones' personal lives in retail, which is where most of the jobs are.
 
predent to pharmacy is like going from hiv and ebola.
 
Hi all, I'm currently a pre dental student rethinking dentistry and considering pharmacy.

I'm rethinking denitstry because a 400k debit is really unappealing to me and honestly I'm just trying to practice my art without the bureaucracy that comes with it. I don't think I can balance a family with a career in dentistry either.

That being said, I am looking into pharmacy (I'm a rising senior, if I do switch career plans, I'd graduate, take my PCAT early next summer, apply to school by the deadline). Can I get some insight as to why I should/shouldn't pursue Pharmacy?

I was in the opposite direction a long time ago (went from pharm to dent). Back then, I saw that pharmacy seems to keep you at a stagnant pay level with little upward mobility. With dentistry, the sky is the limit. Don't worry about the 400k, that goes away real quick. If I had a family, I'd probably have lots of family time, since many dentists such as myself work 32 hours a week. (Technically, I work 33). Stay in dentistry, I think the market is much better right now for dentistry than pharmacy (at least when I talk to my pharm friends and what they report).
 
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Dentistry is incredibly location dependent more so than pharmacy. Pharmacists make more money than dentists in some desirable metropolitan areas and the degree costs a lot less and requires less time. Dentistry is on the decline which you may not be experiencing yet depending on where you are. Rapidly falling reimbursements and corporate takeovers and a bit of too many graduates. Imagine being a dental school grad in an orthodontal residency having done 11 years of school in 500k-$1 mill in debt with CVS and Walgreens taking all your patients and jobs opening smile direct clubs. Look out for dentists on this forum sounding like pharmacists from circa 2001. There will be plenty of deniers. Do your research and don't sign up for loans unless you know what you're getting into.

It's true that dentistry that is very location dependent and I speak from a GP perspective. If you are talking about LA/SF/NYC markets, most associates get only 400-550/day. However, if you are flexible in location, you can easily make at least 200-300k/year as an associate, and much more as an owner. Looking at it from a reimbursement perspective, PPO reimbursements remain stagnant with respect to inflation, except in highly competitive markets such as LA/SF/NYC, whereas medicaid reimbursements are on the decline. Corporate hysteria has taken over, but according to my friends on the inside and my experience in corporate dentistry, corporate dentistry is not as invulnerable as they seem. New dentists gravitate towards corporations because they are the ones that have more job openings and availabilities. However, they are just a stepping stone to the primary goal - opening/owning your own office.

Smile direct club (SDC) is definitely an initial threat to orthodontists and GP's who are doing orthodontics. However, we have to look at it from multiple perspectives. Those that go for SDC - are they looking for a cheaper alternative or they just could not afford orthodontics even with all the payment plans offered by traditional orthodontists? Second, after SDC has done their job, how was the outcome? Did it turn out well, or are they going to have to get it fixed by a dental professional? I think time will tell whether this will be a delayed boon for orthodontists.

Ultimately, you should have a plan to make a lot of money, but also plan to work really hard. As an owner, you get to keep a larger portion of the profits as long as you manage your overhead well. I can't think of an easier way to make a thousand dollars for 15-30 mins of dentist time (root canal or crown) or if you're going the low budget PPO route, 500 dollars.
 
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Are you factoring 5% yearly tuition and fee increases that the dental school doesn't tell you about into your calculations? Instrumentation? Textbooks? How about 6% interest on your student loans? Dentists make $120k coming out of school nowadays thanks to the rapidly growing corporate sector. Maybe if you're lucky enough to go to school in Texas, but 400k isn't an unreasonable estimate by any means.

I got into pharmacy school through pipeline program with no scholarship. Switched to dental and got in with scholarship and will be graduating with less than $100k debt.

Tuition increase is generally 3%. Average debt is $283,000 Paying for Dental School
 
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Again, sounds like pharmacy circa 2001. We used to get free BMW's for signing on and pharmacy owners could make several hundred thousand a year for doing nothing more than retailing brand name drugs. Rural pharmacy owners used to make bank too until reimbursement started tanking over the past decade as pharmacy chains started vertically integrating with PBMs. First, the corporations will spread like wildfire by cutting costs with massive economies of scale, predatory pricing, and buying out practices "to allow you to focus on the clinical aspect of dentistry." Working corporate actually won't be too bad (just like it used to be in pharmacy) in this stage and many dentists (especially newer ones) will work corporate or sell to corporate with the belief that it will always be this good. Once they've accumulated enough market share, they'll slowly cut costs. Wages will go down, benefits will disappear, operating hours will expand (night shifts, evenings, weekends) and you will be laughably understaffed and overworked (illegally too, they don't care). You won't be able to compete. There are plenty of independent pharmacies now that have plenty of customers that hate the chains, but the pharmacies don't get reimbursed enough to justify it. A pharmacy owner makes on average a bit less than a corporate pharmacy store manager now even after investing a few hundred thousand to buy/open a store and it's getting worse. You're almost paying just to have a career that leaves your sanity intact (except for the long hours and the constant threat of bankruptcy). I'm not going to write a ten-page essay on all the creative ways corporations will nickel and dime you and lie to you in order to extract as much of your mental health as possible to redistribute it to shareholders, but trust me when they can do it they will. I really hope it doesn't happen to your profession, but it is definitely trending that way the only question is when it will happen and how far it will go.

CVS isn't going to stop with Smile Direct. They're planning on opening "health hubs" in order to vertically integrate all of healthcare. PA's and NP's already work at CVS. It's happening now for ortho. The company has already said they're planning on getting into primary care (because we thought physicians were "immune") and there's no reason everything else won't follow. You won't even have to wait for Heartland Dental to buy out your practice. You know that Aetna health insurance you accept? CVS owns Aetna now.

Smile Direct Club will continue to hammer ortho into a pulp sadly. Do you have any idea how horrible the customer service is at CVS and yet the customers continue to return? I worked at a CVS pharmacy that had an entire week of prescriptions (about 2,000) in the que that were past due to be filled. Literally mothers had their physicians send in prescriptions and couldn't get their antibiotics for their kids a week later. There wasn't enough staffing to answer the phone to explain to everyone why their prescription wasn't ready or transfer prescriptions to other pharmacies. The entire day was spent filling prescriptions for angry customers that came to the pharmacy who urgently needed their prescriptions. And still the company won't bother to give adequate staffing and customers will keep coming back because it's convenient to pick up your prescriptions anywhere in the country, manage things with an app, have pharmacies open 24 hours a day, only CVS accepts their CVS owned insurance (Caremark), branding, etc. The company receives hundreds of complaints a day and then tries to blame frontline employees for all the issues. It boggles my mind that companies like this are allowed to exist.

Honestly, dentistry has been a pretty sheltered profession for the past 30 years (apparently the early 80's weren't great). Most dentists have never experienced the true corporate work culture consisting of being fired for making too much money or having too many benefits, being forced to work off the clock illegally, being yelled at by managers for not doing things that are literally objectively impossible, and being blamed by customers all day long for things that aren't your fault. These things are common in a lot of industries now. Corporate America has taken notice and is interested in taking their share of the dental pie. I wish you guys the best and hope the dental profession stays independent for as long as possible, but please don't ignore this. Fight and don't ever give your profession away. It's priceless. Hope this info helps.



I did the math when I considered switching careers. According to the ADA's Survey of Dental Education, dental school for residents cost on average $147,409 in 2008 and $251,233 in 2018. Break out a financial calculator and that's 5.47% increases per year. Maybe it's cooling down a bit lately, but it's still outpacing inflation. Plus interest and the fact that "average debt when graduating" means after parents contribute and after scholarships (every degree has scholarships). That $283k number is the most optimistic number you could possibly give. Show me an "average amount paid over the life of a dentist's student loans" statistic. Also, don't ever forget the time value of money when making your financial decisions. A dollar earned/saved in your twenties is worth 10-15x more than a dollar in your sixties (paying 283k in your twenties is equivalent to losing out on like $3.5 million in your retirement account not to mention all those lost wages from spending time in college). Pharmacists make almost as much as general practice physicians if you do the math and account for pharmacists spending less on school and earning more money in their twenties which can be invested over their lifetime. And we get to live our youth. There's a reason so many people have wanted to go to pharmacy school over the past 10 years. Hopefully all the schools start closing down now like they did for dentists in the 80's or lawyers 8ish years ago and we can get back to better times.

Again, hope all this info is useful to those in both our professions and students deciding what to do with their future. You know computer science majors make six figures easy a few years into their career with a bachelor's degree and they can also own incredibly profitable companies?

You already see this in major metropolitan cities. Companies and private practices alike will give a fixed daily rate with/without the option of production bonuses. The barrier to entry in dentistry is not too high, corporations know this, so I've seen some corporations change their strategy to keep their associates from opening. Either through non-enforceable noncompetes, reducing desire to want to open their own, providing "ownership" pathways while still remaining within the DSO's umbrella, and paying associates by collections and then stacking an office with many dentists w/ no benefits.

Dentistry is still different, because it is still a minor surgical procedure and unlike pharmacists, we are the "prescriber and dispenser" of treatment. This is why many offices still set target/production goals and bonuses. This motivates associate dentists to recommend more aggressive/expensive treatment, and make more money for the office and associate. Corporations need dentists who are willing to produce and make money for them. The biggest financial losers here are the dentists that don't produce.

Insurances are always trying to shift their burdens to the patients. Not all patients have dental insurance, nor do all patients need dental insurance. If the insurance doesn't cover it, patient pays out of pocket. In the bare minimum, insurances cover exam,xrays,cleanings, which at a minimum, is worth 150. When in pain, patient's behaviors change drastically in that even if it's not covered by insurance, they'll still do the procedure to get out of pain.

Anyway, I still think dentistry is still good if you're willing to work hard. The barriers to entry of opening your office are not that high and the rewards are far greater since you get to keep a larger chunk of the profit. If you are going to be lazy or not produce, then don't do dentistry. It's easy to get stuck in the 400+/day tier and stay broke for the rest of your life.
 
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Do your research on dentistry. What I can tell you about pharmacy is that we have over 140 pharmacy schools in this country. It’s still growing. The pharmacy profession keeps getting worse year after year. You’re automatically guaranteed a $200,000 student loan debt the very moment you graduate. The worst question that you will face is: What if there are no jobs? If it’s this bad today, it’s only going to get worse 4 years down the road. Not to mention the fact that pharmacist salaries are on the decline. This only makes it harder to pay off your loans. These days finding a full time position after graduation is harder than finding a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.
You want a family-friendly healthcare profession? Dentistry is far more family-friendly than pharmacy. Most dental offices close at the early evenings as well as the weekends. Pharmacies close at 9pm on the weeknights and still open on the weekends. Don’t like working the night shift or the weekends. Retail chain pharmacy can always find another pharmacist who will gladly take your place.
What about hospital? There are far fewer hospitals than there are retail pharmacies. You’re considered lucky if you can even get the graveyard shift.
I’m not trying to sound like a Debbie Downer here. I’m just being realistic.
 
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