Pre-Med US family interested in Atlantic Bridge Program with a few questions!

[maisyeah]

Married with 3 children who will be 3, 4, and 6 for the 2015 matriculation.

GPA - 3.82 cum and 3.86 Science
First MCAT- 21 (9, 9, 4)( (4/2014)
Second MCAT- scheduled for 8/2014
Non-traditional student in late 20's, military veteran with lots of medical experience.
Still applying to US medical schools.

Our questions are:
1. Chances of admission into the program?
2. How difficult is the transition for a family? Opinions and/or advice, please!
3. What are some of the better areas to look at for a family to live in? (Any school city since applying to all.)
4. Would it be unwise to bring our belongings (cars, furniture, etc)?
5. What are elementary schools like and suggestions on what to look for?
6. How difficult is it for a North American spouse to get accepted into a local university?
7. Spousal job opportunities and how is pay without a Bachelor's Deg.?
8. How do these programs compare to U.S. programs?
9. How difficult is it to match in the US?
10. How difficult as a North American is it to match in the UK or Ireland?
11. Is the process for gaining a specialty in the UK and Ireland the same as in the U.S.?

Thanks in advance!

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[Dredge]

hey maisyeah,
Just wanted to welcome you to SDN on behalf of all us fellow want to be doctors on here! I can only imagine how tough it must be to think about going to medschool with three kids but its incredibly cool that you are willing to give it a try. I wont be able to answer all of your questions as i'm 24 and single with no kids and a Canadian but there are a couple questions on your list I might be able to help with. First of all, the odds of getting in are a little complicated. A lot of the matriculants to Irish schools are Canadian. This is because there is a much wider pool of rejects (such as myself) from Canada that are otherwise relatively qualified to get into medschool, however the low numbers of seats comparing to the states results in a higher proportion of applicants that dont get in. Now obviously take what I'm saying with a grain of salt, I might just be making this up to make myself feel better lol. the result though is that there might be a lot of decent applicantsthat decide to head across the pond. The result is that American applicants might end up competing with Canadian applicants that might've been able to get accepted to a US school. Of course that's a lot of talk from someone who also got rejected from the US aswell like me haha. I'm not sure about your intentions about coming back to practice medicine in the states but there's something you should know. As for actually going to Ireland, I'm going to RCSI this September and the truth is I've heard wildly different claims of the likelihood of getting a residency back home. the States appear to be a bit easier to get a spot compared to Canada but regardless of odds you are, without a doubt, better off going to a med school in North America if you can. You might here a lot of people talking about how an international experience is a really great bonus to your career, and while I'm sure touring the world and seeing how others do it is very interesting, career wise you are shooting yourself in the foot. Someone on this site mentioned that it's easier to practice medicine in north america if you graduated on parole, a year behind and almost failed all your courses from North Ontario School of Medicine than if you graduated from Oxford with first class honours, and sadly that's the truth. I wouldnt be going to RCSI if I didnt have to, I'm sure its a fine school filled with fine people, but neither should you or anyone else with hopes of practicing in North America go if you can avoid it. One last thing, I don't want to make it seem that the education in Ireland/UK is worse than in NA, I'm sure its totally solid, it's just that residencies in Canada/US are preferential to graduates of NA, plain and simple. Also, considering that residence positions in the EU are reserved for EU citizens, the result is that a NA graduate from Ireland like myself results in being a kind of Dr orphan where neither continent wants him lol. All this being said, you seem to have a great GPA, especially for the states, however the MCAT score is quite low. I can only imagine how tough it must seem to do the MCAT again, with as many responsibilities as you have and certainly here we're all pulling for you but I would really insist that you just try as hard as you can to kill the MCAT this time around and apply again. So anyways I'm sure you'll hear from a lot of other people far smarter than me that I'm sure will help you a lot more than I could, but nonetheless, Good Luck!!

 

[Medstart108]

hey maisyeah,
Just wanted to welcome you to SDN on behalf of all us fellow want to be doctors on here! I can only imagine how tough it must be to think about going to medschool with three kids but its incredibly cool that you are willing to give it a try. I wont be able to answer all of your questions as i'm 24 and single with no kids and a Canadian but there are a couple questions on your list I might be able to help with. First of all, the odds of getting in are a little complicated. A lot of the matriculants to Irish schools are Canadian. This is because there is a much wider pool of rejects (such as myself) from Canada that are otherwise relatively qualified to get into medschool, however the low numbers of seats comparing to the states results in a higher proportion of applicants that dont get in. Now obviously take what I'm saying with a grain of salt, I might just be making this up to make myself feel better lol. the result though is that there might be a lot of decent applicantsthat decide to head across the pond. The result is that American applicants might end up competing with Canadian applicants that might've been able to get accepted to a US school. Of course that's a lot of talk from someone who also got rejected from the US aswell like me haha. I'm not sure about your intentions about coming back to practice medicine in the states but there's something you should know. As for actually going to Ireland, I'm going to RCSI this September and the truth is I've heard wildly different claims of the likelihood of getting a residency back home. the States appear to be a bit easier to get a spot compared to Canada but regardless of odds you are, without a doubt, better off going to a med school in North America if you can. You might here a lot of people talking about how an international experience is a really great bonus to your career, and while I'm sure touring the world and seeing how others do it is very interesting, career wise you are shooting yourself in the foot. Someone on this site mentioned that it's easier to practice medicine in north america if you graduated on parole, a year behind and almost failed all your courses from North Ontario School of Medicine than if you graduated from Oxford with first class honours, and sadly that's the truth. I wouldnt be going to RCSI if I didnt have to, I'm sure its a fine school filled with fine people, but neither should you or anyone else with hopes of practicing in North America go if you can avoid it. One last thing, I don't want to make it seem that the education in Ireland/UK is worse than in NA, I'm sure its totally solid, it's just that residencies in Canada/US are preferential to graduates of NA, plain and simple. Also, considering that residence positions in the EU are reserved for EU citizens, the result is that a NA graduate from Ireland like myself results in being a kind of Dr orphan where neither continent wants him lol. All this being said, you seem to have a great GPA, especially for the states, however the MCAT score is quite low. I can only imagine how tough it must seem to do the MCAT again, with as many responsibilities as you have and certainly here we're all pulling for you but I would really insist that you just try as hard as you can to kill the MCAT this time around and apply again. So anyways I'm sure you'll hear from a lot of other people far smarter than me that I'm sure will help you a lot more than I could, but nonetheless, Good Luck!!

The NOSM Oxford comparison definitely isn't true. If you actually graduated from Medicine at Oxford with 1st Class Honours and you did your ECs right you could get into top specialities as long as there are spots and this applies even in Canada. Whereas if you graduated from NOSM while failing your courses you wouldn't be able to get anything better than family med (remember about 5% of CMGs don't match and if you failed all your classes at NOSM you are probably hovering around that 5% border). I know a Canadian guy who graduated top of his class at a UK med school and got Ortho in Canada. Try asking the guy at NOSM who failed his courses to do the same and it would be impossible.

It is a lot harder I would say FM in Canada for IMGs is probably as competitive as Plastics or Derm in Canada for CMGs. Also once you pass the hurdle of residency, that is when the guy from Oxford's career will start to shine. Whereas the NOSM guy's career wouldn't because in residency your skills in medicine and research will show itself and the bias against IMGs almost disappears.

The comparison doubles for the US. Most likely the Oxford guy would have much better Step scores and they would definitely match much better even as an IMG. If you look at the Irish match stats for the US, i think around 58 matched out of 80. Not bad if you ask me, similar to SGU though.

Note: This comparison isn't realistic because Oxford accepts one super star canadian high school student every few years and would never consider anyone who couldn't get into med school in canada.

 

[Dredge]

well, I'm not arguing that the guy who's barely passing at NOSM is barely passing because he's second rate, that's totally true, and maybe I embellished a bit but the truth is I would rather take my chances graduating from NOSM than Oxford any day because my goals are to practice in Canada eventually. Now I'm sure the person you know who got an ortho position in Canada is a superstar and is incredibly deserving of that position but the stats (from this forum) show that the people who get those positions are few and far between. A disproportionate amount of IMG are stuck settling for FM compared to CMGs, that's the plain truth. Nonetheless, I love hearing the stories of someone coming from the old world and getting a cool position like that, makes me think I might have a shot at coming back and being a doc of some kind back home lol.

 

[Medstart108]

well, I'm not arguing that the guy who's barely passing at NOSM is barely passing because he's second rate, that's totally true, and maybe I embellished a bit but the truth is I would rather take my chances graduating from NOSM than Oxford any day because my goals are to practice in Canada eventually. Now I'm sure the person you know who got an ortho position in Canada is a superstar and is incredibly deserving of that position but the stats (from this forum) show that the people who get those positions are few and far between. A disproportionate amount of IMG are stuck settling for FM compared to CMGs, that's the plain truth. Nonetheless, I love hearing the stories of someone coming from the old world and getting a cool position like that, makes me think I might have a shot at coming back and being a doc of some kind back home lol.

Yeah it sounds pretty amazing doesn't it. If i was in between NOSM and Oxford I would actually choose Oxford. I know it'll hurt me for residency apps but I think the teaching and the experience at Oxford would pay itself in dividends during med school and after residency. The only pain will be during applications to residency but you have a whole career ahead of you and after that I think Oxford > NOSM in many Canadian/American staff physicians eyes, at the very least you'll have a story to tell haha.

About FM, I honestly think people on this forum bash FM way too much, especially when concerning Canada. More CMGs want FM than IMGs do, its very odd but when you do a poll its more popular among CMGs. I think Family Med in Canada is not the same as FM in the US. FMs have higher salaries, more jobs and have more respect. They also have incredible versatility in their practice. A lot of Canadian medical schools have half of their class go into FM. So the IMGs who go into FM yes they may be people who settled but most likely they are people who actually wanted FM.

 

[CHRONOS7]

Married with 3 children who will be 3, 4, and 6 for the 2015 matriculation.

GPA - 3.82 cum and 3.86 Science
First MCAT- 21 (9, 9, 4)( (4/2014)
Second MCAT- scheduled for 8/2014
Non-traditional student in late 20's, military veteran with lots of medical experience.
Still applying to US medical schools.

Our questions are:
1. Chances of admission into the program?
2. How difficult is the transition for a family? Opinions and/or advice, please!
3. What are some of the better areas to look at for a family to live in? (Any school city since applying to all.)
4. Would it be unwise to bring our belongings (cars, furniture, etc)?
5. What are elementary schools like and suggestions on what to look for?
6. How difficult is it for a North American spouse to get accepted into a local university?
7. Spousal job opportunities and how is pay without a Bachelor's Deg.?
8. How do these programs compare to U.S. programs?
9. How difficult is it to match in the US?
10. How difficult as a North American is it to match in the UK or Ireland?
11. Is the process for gaining a specialty in the UK and Ireland the same as in the U.S.?

Thanks in advance!

1. Chances of admission into the program?

Your MCAT is probably too low for the graduate entry medicine placements in Ireland. Definitely retake it, and study hard for it. Your GPA is very strong.

Ireland admissions don't really care about extracurricular activities. Essentially you're judged primarily according to the strength of your MCAT, GPA is a distant second, and interview (for the schools that conduct interviews, 2/4 graduate programs, Limerick and RCSI).

2. How difficult is the transition for a family? Opinions and/or advice, please!

Not sure about this one but I would guess your family would be able to get a visa; how much they would be able to work on that visa is a different story. Also, look into your ability to claim dual citizenship with any European Union country. If you have white ancestry it may be possible and if you or your spouse get an EU passport that would eliminate the need for a visa all together.

3. What are some of the better areas to look at for a family to live in? (Any school city since applying to all.)

In Dublin, South Dublin definitely tends to be the "nicer" part of the city. Areas of the North Side can be a bit rough. For a family, I would suggest one of the South Side suburbs if you can afford it. The further away from the city you get the lower your rent will be, but if you live along the Green Line LUAS or the Dart public transit into town will be an easy 20-30 minute commute. Places like Stillorgan, Churchtown, Milltown, and Foxrock are all nice communities and would be plenty safe for families. The only thing I'll say is that Dublin is an expensive city. In terms of cost, rent and such are probably comparable to somewhere like Boston. The North Side will be considerably more economical but it has its drawbacks in terms of safety and overall environment.

Its my understanding that Cork, Galway, and Limerick are all considerably more affordable in terms of rent and accommodation but since I don't live in those places I can't really comment.

4. Would it be unwise to bring our belongings (cars, furniture, etc)?

Yes. In Ireland they drive on the opposite side of the car, and the road, than they do in North America so you are probably best buying a car here. Plus the cars in Europe have smaller engines which is essential as gasoline prices are much higher.

As for furniture, most rentals will come fully furnished in Ireland. It's a rarity to have buy a whole lot. You can expect most of the basics will be provided by the landlord (beds, couches, tables, a microwave, and even things like cutlery for the kitchen).

5. What are elementary schools like and suggestions on what to look for?

No clue.

6. How difficult is it for a North American spouse to get accepted into a local university?

Studying medicine? Or something else?

I would guess if your spouse wants to study anything that is not typically super competitive, it will be reasonably achievable as international fees are higher than Irish fees, although lower than American fees (except for disciplines like medicine), so there is a mutual interest in accepting an international fee paying student.

7. Spousal job opportunities and how is pay without a Bachelor's Deg.?

Minimum wage in Ireland is €8.65 ($11.80 US) per hour. There always seems to be opportunities for people in Ireland willing to work. I'm not sure what type of earnings to expect though without a degree.

8. How do these programs compare to U.S. programs?

That's a hard question to answer since most US programs will differ from university to university. The degrees are well-respected and recognized all over the US though.

9. How difficult is it to match in the US?

Statistically, the match rate for IMGs (that is, US Citizen international medical graduates) is 50%. The Irish schools tend to match a bit better at 60-70%. So if you study in Ireland there is a 30-40% chance you will be without a job upon graduation and then forced to scramble for whatever you can get where ever you can get it (Ireland, UK, Singapore, etc). But obviously, you have a good deal of control over where you are upon graduation. If you take the course seriously, work hard, work on your extracurricular activities (like research), and study hard for the USMLE you shouldn't have much of a difficult time matching.

10. How difficult as a North American is it to match in the UK or Ireland?

Very. But the situation is always changing. Ireland and the UK take a legal preference for EU graduates. So they have to fill all their spots with EU graduates before they can even look at non-EU nationals. That's not to say North Americans don't get to stay in Ireland, some do. But I wouldn't recommend relying on doing so.

11. Is the process for gaining a specialty in the UK and Ireland the same as in the U.S.?

No. It's different in all 3 countries.

 

[Dredge]

Yeah it sounds pretty amazing doesn't it. If i was in between NOSM and Oxford I would actually choose Oxford. I know it'll hurt me for residency apps but I think the teaching and the experience at Oxford would pay itself in dividends during med school and after residency. The only pain will be during applications to residency but you have a whole career ahead of you and after that I think Oxford > NOSM in many Canadian/American staff physicians eyes, at the very least you'll have a story to tell haha.

About FM, I honestly think people on this forum bash FM way too much, especially when concerning Canada. More CMGs want FM than IMGs do, its very odd but when you do a poll its more popular among CMGs. I think Family Med in Canada is not the same as FM in the US. FMs have higher salaries, more jobs and have more respect. They also have incredible versatility in their practice. A lot of Canadian medical schools have half of their class go into FM. So the IMGs who go into FM yes they may be people who settled but most likely they are people who actually wanted FM.

Yeah, I think I'm one of those people that rag on FM too much as well. I really don't know too much to immediately write it off but it just seems really boring. Which is why I'm looking hard at a FM to shadow some time soonish to see if FM is something worth following lol. As for the Oxford v. NOSM thing lets agree to disagree haha. While you're totally right that an Oxford grad probably is the better trained doctor I just really doubt the difference is so great that it warrants the huge headache getting back, but at this point its just a judgement call lol.

 

[VanEman]

1. Chances of admission into the program?

Your MCAT is probably too low for the graduate entry medicine placements in Ireland. Definitely retake it, and study hard for it. Your GPA is very strong.

Ireland admissions don't really care about extracurricular activities. Essentially you're judged primarily according to the strength of your MCAT, GPA is a distant second, and interview (for the schools that conduct interviews, 2/4 graduate programs, Limerick and RCSI).

2. How difficult is the transition for a family? Opinions and/or advice, please!

Not sure about this one but I would guess your family would be able to get a visa; how much they would be able to work on that visa is a different story. Also, look into your ability to claim dual citizenship with any European Union country. If you have white ancestry it may be possible and if you or your spouse get an EU passport that would eliminate the need for a visa all together.
3. What are some of the better areas to look at for a family to live in? (Any school city since applying to all.)

In Dublin, South Dublin definitely tends to be the "nicer" part of the city. Areas of the North Side can be a bit rough. For a family, I would suggest one of the South Side suburbs if you can afford it. The further away from the city you get the lower your rent will be, but if you live along the Green Line LUAS or the Dart public transit into town will be an easy 20-30 minute commute. Places like Stillorgan, Churchtown, Milltown, and Foxrock are all nice communities and would be plenty safe for families. The only thing I'll say is that Dublin is an expensive city. In terms of cost, rent and such are probably comparable to somewhere like Boston. The North Side will be considerably more economical but it has its drawbacks in terms of safety and overall environment.

Its my understanding that Cork, Galway, and Limerick are all considerably more affordable in terms of rent and accommodation but since I don't live in those places I can't really comment.
4. Would it be unwise to bring our belongings (cars, furniture, etc)?

Yes. In Ireland they drive on the opposite side of the car, and the road, than they do in North America so you are probably best buying a car here. Plus the cars in Europe have smaller engines which is essential as gasoline prices are much higher.

As for furniture, most rentals will come fully furnished in Ireland. It's a rarity to have buy a whole lot. You can expect most of the basics will be provided by the landlord (beds, couches, tables, a microwave, and even things like cutlery for the kitchen).
5. What are elementary schools like and suggestions on what to look for?

No clue.

6. How difficult is it for a North American spouse to get accepted into a local university?

Studying medicine? Or something else?

I would guess if your spouse wants to study anything that is not typically super competitive, it will be reasonably achievable as international fees are higher than Irish fees, although lower than American fees (except for disciplines like medicine), so there is a mutual interest in accepting an international fee paying student.

7. Spousal job opportunities and how is pay without a Bachelor's Deg.?

Minimum wage in Ireland is €8.65 ($11.80 US) per hour. There always seems to be opportunities for people in Ireland willing to work. I'm not sure what type of earnings to expect though without a degree.

8. How do these programs compare to U.S. programs?

That's a hard question to answer since most US programs will differ from university to university. The degrees are well-respected and recognized all over the US though.

9. How difficult is it to match in the US?

Statistically, the match rate for IMGs (that is, US Citizen international medical graduates) is 50%. The Irish schools tend to match a bit better at 60-70%. So if you study in Ireland there is a 30-40% chance you will be without a job upon graduation and then forced to scramble for whatever you can get where ever you can get it (Ireland, UK, Singapore, etc). But obviously, you have a good deal of control over where you are upon graduation. If you take the course seriously, work hard, work on your extracurricular activities (like research), and study hard for the USMLE you shouldn't have much of a difficult time matching.

10. How difficult as a North American is it to match in the UK or Ireland?

Very. But the situation is always changing. Ireland and the UK take a legal preference for EU graduates. So they have to fill all their spots with EU graduates before they can even look at non-EU nationals. That's not to say North Americans don't get to stay in Ireland, some do. But I wouldn't recommend relying on doing so.

11. Is the process for gaining a specialty in the UK and Ireland the same as in the U.S.?

No. It's different in all 3 countries.

So what does your MCAT need to be competitive?

 

[caprafan]

Something worth noting: if you are bringing children who would be attending school, you'll have to demonstrate the ability to pay for private school for them, as non-European Economic Area citizens are not allowed to attend public schools. I learned this from an email reply from the Irish Council for International Students:

"Non-EEA students coming to Ireland have no automatic entitlement to be accompanied by dependents including children. The rules are outlined on ICOS’ webpage http://www.icosirl.ie/index.php/eng/student_information/students_with_children. You could apply for an individual ruling in your case but this might take some time. The main criteria would be your ability to show that you have adequate funding both for yourself and your son including the payment of fees for a private school as international students are not entitled to enrol their children in public (free) schools."

 

[meeep]

2. How difficult is the transition for a family? Opinions and/or advice, please!
Students aren't guaranteed visas for their spouses (or children I would imagine). I would contact someone at the school or through Atlantic Bridge to see what they can do for you.
3. What are some of the better areas to look at for a family to live in? (Any school city since applying to all.)
Dublin is a very safe city, but expensive. Ireland overall is a very safe place.
4. Would it be unwise to bring our belongings (cars, furniture, etc)?
Bring essentials. Cars and furniture would be foolish. I wouldn't suggest bringing more than you can't bring back in a couple airline trips with suitcases.
6. How difficult is it for a North American spouse to get accepted into a local university?
Not terribly difficult, but the way the degrees in Ireland are structured, it may be difficult to align their degree with yours, i.e. 4 year program accepted at the same time, or 3 year program starting a year later.
7. Spousal job opportunities and how is pay without a Bachelor's Deg.?
Difficult. Your spouse is unlikely to receive a work visa and an employer will have to vouch for necessity to be eligible for employment. If they are accepted as a student, then their student visa will grant them 20 hours work/week.
8. How do these programs compare to U.S. programs?
They're different. The education is solid but it is what you make of it. Don't even try if you're not intrinsically motivated. I could go on, but the gist is that the very motivated do well, and the poorly motivated waste their time and money.
9. How difficult is it to match in the US?
If you do everything right and aren't picky about your specialty or geography, very easy. If you let things slip or if you want something competitive in a desirable area, very very hard.
10. How difficult as a North American is it to match in the UK or Ireland?
Easy if you're in the top third of your class, so long as you're okay with having last choice in terms of placement.
11. Is the process for gaining a specialty in the UK and Ireland the same as in the U.S.?
No. It's entirely different. You start as an intern or foundation year and then you apply to specific training schemes. Networking is paramount.