Pre-med college decision: more selective UC, lower GPA vs. less selective UC, higher GPA?

[Med&VetDad]

Why is this not in hSDN?


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Sorry, I'm a rookie. What's hSDN?

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[cactusman]

Sorry, I'm a rookie. What's hSDN?

High school SDN. That's where Undergrad X vs. Undergrad Y frequently goes.

 

[gyngyn]

Moving to hSDN.

 

[Med&VetDad]

High school SDN. That's where Undergrad X vs. Undergrad Y frequently goes.

Ahhhh...so I am in the wrong place to begin with! Oops. Will remember that for the future. I won't mind if a moderator moves this to the correct forum. Thanks for letting me know.

 

[Med&VetDad]

Moving to hSDN.

Thank you, appreciate that.

 

[differentiating]

- No attached medical school, which means you have to cross the Bay to go to UCSF for most clinical research opportunities and exposure to medical faculty

Just as an FYI - you don't have to do clinical research to get into medical school. UC Berkeley has plenty of research opportunities on-campus for students, including a few labs I know of that collaborate directly with UCSF labs (so the UCSF researchers travel there). I'd also imagine that there might be volunteering opportunities available through CHO or Highland, if there aren't any local free clinics around in need of volunteers, if that's also a concern. For those reasons, I personally wouldn't consider an affiliated medical school much of an advantage.

(Disclaimer: I didn't attend Berkeley or another UC myself, so I defer to any users with first-hand experience.)

Personally, I'd suggest she go to the school she'd be happiest at. I disliked my undergrad immensely, even though it was a strategic choice for getting into medical school for various reasons, and while I'm grateful to have gotten where I wanted to be, I do often wish I'd chosen the better fit over the logical choice.

 

[Med&VetDad]

Just as an FYI - you don't have to do clinical research to get into medical school. UC Berkeley has plenty of research opportunities on-campus for students, including a few labs I know of that collaborate directly with UCSF labs (so the UCSF researchers travel there). I'd also imagine that there might be volunteering opportunities available through CHO or Highland, if there aren't any local free clinics around in need of volunteers, if that's also a concern. For those reasons, I personally wouldn't consider an affiliated medical school much of an advantage.

(Disclaimer: I didn't attend Berkeley or another UC myself, so I defer to any users with first-hand experience.)

Personally, I'd suggest she go to the school she'd be happiest at. I disliked my undergrad immensely, even though it was a strategic choice for getting into medical school for various reasons, and while I'm grateful to have gotten where I wanted to be, I do often wish I'd chosen the better fit over the logical choice.

Now that you mention it, CHO merged with UCSF, didn't it? They used to have their own research facility also (CHORI), beyond what Berkeley itself has to offer. Not sure if it exists anymore. Sorry to hear you didn't like your undergrad. College comes only once. Glad to know you are a medical student now!

 

[Jalby]

Not really. It can mean a world of difference at community colleges.

It meant a lot at UCLA. I wasn't able to get into the easiest and fun classes until a junior when I had priority. Atheletes and regents scholars were doing them from day one.

 

[moggat]

Ultimately, the school that's going to give your kid the best chance at medical school is the one she likes the best.

I went to the ultimate pre-med factory school, and I'll be honest it was a huge chore dealing with the pre-med establishment. The saving grace for me--and what ultimately allowed me to build a successful med school application--was all the OTHER stuff. I joined (non-premed) clubs and activities and classes that balanced the stress, padded my gpa, and helped me find friends who were in all different fields. All of the UCs are great, and any one of them is going to provide the opportunities your kid needs to get into medical school. I'm also a CA kid so I had friends go to all four big ones (Cal, LA, SD, and Davis) and they were all able to get into medical school, but the four schools have VERY different vibes and cultures. You need to just visit all of them and let your kid get a feel for the school itself; to really see if they could picture themselves being HAPPY there for 4 years. I can't tell you how many people went to a more "prestigious" UC (cough*Cal*cough) and ended up dropping out or seriously suffering with depression, when they would have enjoyed themselves a lot more surfing at black's beach every morning. But some other people thrive in Cal's environment.

Ultimately, all of the UC's are going to provide the opportunities to get into medical school for your bright, driven kid. What you need to do is help her decide which one is going to make her happiest, so she can have the support system to actually pursue it.

PM me if youd like specifics; I'm happy to chat. It sounds like youre trying to do right by your daughter, and I think thats admirable.

 

[OchemOficionado]

It meant a lot at UCLA. I wasn't able to get into the easiest and fun classes until a junior when I had priority. Atheletes and regents scholars were doing them from day one.

Experiences could vary. How long ago was that? At least a decade, right?

 

[Med&VetDad]

Privates are starting to come out now, and my daughter got accepted to her top choice among LACs: Carleton College in Northfield, MN. Unfortunately, after grants and W/S, the cost is $20K more than UCs. She LOVES every aspect of Carleton and is as close to being a perfect fit for the warm, friendly, down-to-earth, collaborative, and intellectual culture as possible. Aside from the debate we are having about whether it's worth going into that much debt to go to a private vs. a UC, we have other considerations. I know that Carleton has an excellent record spitting out future PhDs, but very few medical students. However, their acceptance rate is 75%, and they don't play the game of discouraging students with lower-than-optimal GPAs and MCAT scores to fudge their stats. The other concern is that both Mayo and the Twin Cities are a bit of a ride (~45 min-1 hour) from the rural campus location, making school year internships and clinical volunteering somewhat challenging to keep up. Friends in medical school admissions are saying UC is a no-brainer, but they seem to be emphasizing reputation. Not everyone understands the value of a small liberal arts college education, and Carleton is supposed to be amazing with respect to undergrad teaching and professor-student interaction.

Then there is tiny Scripps, the all-women's college within the Claremont consortium. The Scripps Scholarship they are offering her brings the cost down to within $10K of Cal. They have the Keck Integrated Sciences program together with Claremont McKenna and Pitzer. And they have some Early Conditional Selection agreement for motivated sophomores with George Washington University School of Medicine and Health Sciences (D.C.?). Unlike many consortia, the 5Cs are truly a unit; cross-registration with Pomona and Harvey Mudd, both phenomenal schools, is a practical reality given everything is within walking distance. Dorms are nice, food is good, especially at Pitzer. However, as beautiful as the campus is, my daughter is wondering whether she will find the same intellectual environment there as she would at Carleton or a UC. That's a vibe thing, I suppose.

Finally, she just got Bryn Mawr, in PA, sister school to Haverford and in a consortium with Swarthmore. They can also cross-register with UPenn. Similar to Scripps, their Presidential Scholarship brings the cost down to within $10K of UC, so money isn't a factor. We know very little about this school, although we know a lot about Haverford and Swarthmore. I imagine its close proximity to Philly opens up opportunities for pre-meds.

 

[moggat]

Privates are starting to come out now, and my daughter got accepted to her top choice among LACs: Carleton College in Northfield, MN. Unfortunately, after grants and W/S, the cost is $20K more than UCs. She LOVES every aspect of Carleton and is as close to being a perfect fit for the warm, friendly, down-to-earth, collaborative, and intellectual culture as possible. Aside from the debate we are having about whether it's worth going into that much debt to go to a private vs. a UC, we have other considerations. I know that Carleton has an excellent record spitting out future PhDs, but very few medical students. However, their acceptance rate is 75%, and they don't play the game of discouraging students with lower-than-optimal GPAs and MCAT scores to fudge their stats. The other concern is that both Mayo and the Twin Cities are a bit of a ride (~45 min-1 hour) from the rural campus location, making school year internships and clinical volunteering somewhat challenging to keep up. Friends in medical school admissions are saying UC is a no-brainer, but they seem to be emphasizing reputation. Not everyone understands the value of a small liberal arts college education, and Carleton is supposed to be amazing with respect to undergrad teaching and professor-student interaction.

Then there is tiny Scripps, the all-women's college within the Claremont consortium. The Scripps Scholarship they are offering her brings the cost down to within $10K of Cal. They have the Keck Integrated Sciences program together with Claremont McKenna and Pitzer. And they have some Early Conditional Selection agreement for motivated sophomores with George Washington University School of Medicine and Health Sciences (D.C.?). Unlike many consortia, the 5Cs are truly a unit; cross-registration with Pomona and Harvey Mudd, both phenomenal schools, is a practical reality given everything is within walking distance. Dorms are nice, food is good, especially at Pitzer. However, as beautiful as the campus is, my daughter is wondering whether she will find the same intellectual environment there as she would at Carleton or a UC. That's a vibe thing, I suppose.

Finally, she just got Bryn Mawr, in PA, sister school to Haverford and in a consortium with Swarthmore. They can also cross-register with UPenn. Similar to Scripps, their Presidential Scholarship brings the cost down to within $10K of UC, so money isn't a factor. We know very little about this school, although we know a lot about Haverford and Swarthmore. I imagine its close proximity to Philly opens up opportunities for pre-meds.

All of those are great choices, and there is definitely something to be said for the small school experience (AKA not having to duke it out with 30000 other students for registration) I think the environment your daughter would get at scripps or bryn mawr would be at least equivalent to the UCs (and at least a couple adcoms on here have said they love kids from the claremont schools)

Ultimately, it sounds like your daughter has a number of phenomenal choices, and I dont really know if youre going to get great advice from the people on this forum. To be honest, there are a lot more factors that go into college choice than just"pre-med opportunities" that will affect your daughters life/future. I think you should consider going to see a QUALIFIED college counselor to help you make these decisions. At least where i live, these people are often retired college counselors from elite private schools who know the colleges inside and out and will be able to give your kid a much more balanced, insightful understanding of the different environments than anyone on this board (since the vast majority of us have only gone to one or two undergrads)

 

[B2R]

Looking for advice for my daughter who will begin undergrad as a freshman in fall 2017. She's going in with stellar academic record from one of the nation's top school districts, so it will be a shock to her system when she experiences "failure" for the first time in college - and it will happen sooner or later, guaranteed. Should my daughter go to UC Berkeley, or choose a slightly less competitive UC in order to raise her chances of standing out and getting a higher GPA? I am under the impression that in comparing the UCs, medical schools care more about GPA (and MCAT scores) than which UC you went to, at least if you compare the schools that have accepted her:

Berkeley - Regents' scholarship candidate, waiting to find out if she was awarded it ($10K over four years, if she gets it)
UCLA (has a med school)
UC San Diego (has a med school)
UC Davis - Regents' awarded ($30K over four years) (has a med school)
UC Santa Cruz - Regents' awarded ($20K over four years)
UC Irvine (has a med school)
Still waiting to hear from UC Santa Barbara
(Note that Regents' scholars get priority class enrollment, guaranteed housing all four years, research funding in some cases, and other perks.)

Anyway, her top choice is Berkeley right now, but she has yet to explore the others, so I am telling her to keep an open mind.
Berkeley Pros:
- Institutional status comparable to Ivy League schools globally
- Academically, the most rigorous (at least by reputation), and seems to be equally strong across all departments
- Excellent research opportunities, provided you are a motivated student who aggressively pursues them
- If medical school doesn't work out, best UC to have on your resume as a job seeker, provided you gain some practical, marketable skills in your undergrad as a fallback when your dream path doesn't pan out
- Strong alumni network in the San Francisco Bay Area, where we live and where she wants to stay after her higher education is complete
- Vibrant town, socially and politically active community

Berkeley Cons:
- Huge class size in pre-med required courses (intro bio, chem, etc.)
- Vicious curve = chances of maintaining a high GPA diminishes; discouraging for someone dreaming of becoming a psychiatrist
- No attached medical school, which means you have to cross the Bay to go to UCSF for most clinical research opportunities and exposure to medical faculty
- Every pre-med we have spoken to has told us how miserable life in the required science classes can be
- From what I hear, no or very limited pre-health professions advising to speak of

Pre-med classes are miserable everywhere; they are designed to weed people out, and they are not always taught by professors who give a hoot about their students. On top of that, if you take such classes at a place like Cal, they can be even more challenging.

 

[B2R]

OP, just curious, which college did your daughter pick and the reason?

 

[Med&VetDad]

@B2R - Wow, old thread revived! Thanks for asking. She's headed to Carleton College. You may recall I wrote it was her top choice but not affordable. Well, without going into details, Carleton ultimately made it possible for her to go. Dream come true. I think she'll thrive in that collaborative, supportive environment. Most people here have never heard of Carleton and think she was crazy to decline Berkeley. However, we are learning that those who do know Carleton have a tremendous amount of respect for its quality of undergraduate teaching, high academic standards, and intellectual student body. That makes my daughter feel better about the "status" factor, as an Asian American. Every student is required to submit a writing portfolio at the end of sophomore year, which is important to me. I want her to be a better writer and critical thinker across disciplines. And I believe a comprehensive project ("comp" = senior thesis/project) is mandatory for every senior, which I also like. While the student body is known to be science-heavy in interests, they are strong across fields. They just introduced minors whereas before, they only had concentrations. Not sure what that will mean for students who desire that option.

Students and faculty at Carleton are warm and friendly, including the helpful and experienced premed adviser. They have a premed committee of professors she'll get to know well, so their recommendation letter(s) will be meaningful. Carleton students perform well on the MCAT, on average, presumably because they actually learn the content and are not simply trying to scrape by to make the grade in weeder classes. They don't have grade inflation, and I hear getting a high GPA is challenging. The 10-week trimester system is also fast-paced, but with hard work, I think she can succeed. I hear Carleton students often do research at Mayo Clinic during the summer, given the close proximity of Rochester. However, I'm sure those fellowships are highly competitive. On the other hand, she has already met with three, local alumni physicians this summer who offered her shadowing opportunities, including observing outpatient surgical procedures. ("Carls help Carls.") She is also identifying meaningful community service activities and has some ideas of her own to start an organization.

As a bonus, the 1000-acre campus & arboretum are beautiful. Climate: let's just say Minneapolis is literally the coldest large city in the United States (she looked it up). Good thing she loves to skate and ski, and snow is better than Boston slush. Nothing a heavy coat, sweaters, gloves, hat, earmuffs, scarves, boots, thermal underwear, flannel, and multiple layers can't solve. Global warming will take care of the rest. And ethnic food in the dining hall and in Northfield can use improvement. No place is perfect.

She spent time at each of the six UCs she was admitted to, staying overnight with friends at the top choices. She liked UCLA the most overall, not Berkeley! Davis was second with their friendly vibe, good food, and presence of animals everywhere. Every UC has a unique character and pros/cons, so I would urge any student and parent reading this thread to check them out after the acceptance letters come in. Forget the premed criteria and status factor, and imagine yourself at the place first. And ask a lot of questions to different types of people. That's my daughter's advice.

Wish her luck!

 

[B2R]

Thank you for sharing that information and advice. It was very helpful!

Best of luck to your daughter!

 

[Caecilius11]

I need help in deciding between UC Berkley (in state) , UNC ( research scholar program offer) and Case Western (25k scholarship and Baker Nord scholar offer). I am very keen for premed.
Any advice from current premed Cal,UNC and Case students would really help. Thanks!!

 

[Geo16]

I need help in deciding between UC Berkley (in state) , UNC ( research scholar program offer) and Case Western (25k scholarship and Baker Nord scholar offer). I am very keen for premed.
Any advice from current premed Cal,UNC and Case students would really help. Thanks!!

Come to Cal. There are so many volunteering opportunities here. That's a huge plus. But I'm sure other places might be the same. Clinics/hospitals are easy to find since it's in the bay area. So, you wont' find "there are no MD/DOs near my area plz halp" or "omg there are no hospitals to volunteer, help" situation here.
A lot of futuristic/progressive clubs and organizations here and you'll find them definitely interesting- just to keep you challenged and involved.
Make sure to visit the campus once and visit the building that you might major in (Integrative Biology -> Valley Life Science Building VLSB).
Also, last but not least, it's a GPA deflation school. You'll find yourself constructing a different path because of that. A lot of pre-HAAS/pre-engineering(pre-CS)/ pre-med MCB or IB have switched to something else It's no shame!
So.. what I mean is: get prepared! Rough ride ahead!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Edit: I realize that I said a year ago that Cal isn't a great destination. Idk why though lol

 

[pre-medstudent10]

I’m a transfer student from another UC and I’m thinking about going to either Cal or Ucla. (I’d be joining this fall 2019) After hearing so much in grade deflation, gpa arguments, and which is a better college to get into medical school I’m still not 100%. As a transfer student, would grade deflation still affect me? As a transfer student is Cal the better choice or Ucla?

 

[efle]

I’m a transfer student from another UC and I’m thinking about going to either Cal or Ucla. (I’d be joining this fall 2019) After hearing so much in grade deflation, gpa arguments, and which is a better college to get into medical school I’m still not 100%. As a transfer student, would grade deflation still affect me? As a transfer student is Cal the better choice or Ucla?

If you took all your prereqs already and will be going straight into the smaller upper level classes, you'll be dodging the brunt of the weedout. UCLA and Cal are comparable in this regard anyways, so just go to the location you like better