Pre-interview Dinner Etiquette- does what you order matter?

[oompa loompa]

There are several threads out there on what NOT to do during dinners...don't show up in a tank and flip flops, or get wasted, or trash-talk, etc.

I was wondering specifically about ordering food, and whether I should try and order cheaper items (burgers, salads) or if I can really get whatever I want (lamb, fish, crab, etc.) I would really like to eat whatever I want, but not if it makes me look like the kind of person who orders the most expensive thing on the menu.

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[WhoisJohnGalt]

There are several threads out there on what NOT to do during dinners...don't show up in a tank and flip flops, or get wasted, or trash-talk, etc.

I was wondering specifically about ordering food, and whether I should try and order cheaper items (burgers, salads) or if I can really get whatever I want (lamb, fish, crab, etc.) I would really like to eat whatever I want, but not if it makes me look like the kind of person who orders the most expensive thing on the menu.

I really can't imagine anyone will even notice what you're ordering, much less judge you on it. I plan on ordering whatever looks most appetizing, just like I usually would. I really think you're over-thinking this one.

 

[Frugal Traveler]

Just avoid the scombroid .

Anyhow, I heard the places you go to give you a special menu with limited offerings... so the program is probably controlling cost that way.

If you have a full menu, then well you have a full menu. Order what you like.

I would avoid alcohol, fortune cookies, or messy foods.

 

[It'sElectric]

Just avoid the scombroid .

Anyhow, I heard the places you go to give you a special menu with limited offerings... so the program is probably controlling cost that way.

If you have a full menu, then well you have a full menu. Order what you like.

I would avoid alcohol, fortune cookies, or messy foods.

Not even a beer with your meal? It's not like I'll go into withdrawal if not, but I figured most had a drink (if they desire) with their meal.

 

[Frugal Traveler]

Not even a beer with your meal? It's not like I'll go into withdrawal if not, but I figured most had a drink (if they desire) with their meal.

Alcohol is going to depend on the situation... my adviser suggested avoiding it.

 

[tacrum43]

I would avoid...fortune cookies

 

[Frugal Traveler]

It's a joke from Iverson's

 

[Ariee]

I ordered what was most tastiest and thought it was OK, b/c the resident's husbands (non-residents) ordered a huge steak (most expensive thing on the menu) and the other a full rack of ribs...Although, my meal wasn't as expensive (not even as close), I thought, heck, I'm getting what I want. I really don't think it matters. Alcohol, I stayed away from, so far. I basically let the resident order first and see how they set the mood. I definitely would not order an alcoholic beverage if I was the first one to order....

Although a good thought to be worried about, you're kinda over-thinkig it...

G'luck,
A

 

[tacrum43]

It's a joke from Iverson's

Ah. I didn't read Iverson's. Do you find it helpful?

 

[ResidentMD]

Ah. I didn't read Iverson's. Do you find it helpful?

Am I spelling it wrong till now? I just saw 2-3 posts spelling it is Iverson's...

 

[Frugal Traveler]

Am I spelling it wrong till now? I just saw 2-3 posts spelling it is Iverson's...

I apologize... the correct spelling is Iserson's.

The book has some good tips, some outdated and mostly common sense... but can be useful book.

 

[ResidentMD]

I apologize... the correct spelling is Iserson's.

The book has some good tips, some outdated and mostly common sense... but can be useful book.

Haha...yeah I was just fooling around. I agree, it has a few decent things. While its not something to swear by, provides an orientation of sorts.

 

[It'sElectric]

I ordered what was most tastiest and thought it was OK, b/c the resident's husbands (non-residents) ordered a huge steak (most expensive thing on the menu) and the other a full rack of ribs...Although, my meal wasn't as expensive (not even as close), I thought, heck, I'm getting what I want. I really don't think it matters. Alcohol, I stayed away from, so far. I basically let the resident order first and see how they set the mood. I definitely would not order an alcoholic beverage if I was the first one to order....

Although a good thought to be worried about, you're kinda over-thinkig it...

G'luck,
A

Good to know. Ultimately, I planned on making certain I was not the first to order, giving me the opportunity to see how everyone else is ordering.

I guess I had just previously heard stories of applicants getting a drink or 2 with some of the residents the night before...

 

[lord_jeebus]

Practically everyone had at least one drink at all of my pre-interview dinners, and at one, expensive wines were free-flowing.

Normal people are able to drink in moderation, and I don't see why this would be held against you.

I'm in anesthesiology, so perhaps that's the difference.

 

[It'sElectric]

Practically everyone had at least one drink at all of my pre-interview dinners, and at one, expensive wines were free-flowing.

Normal people are able to drink in moderation, and I don't see why this would be held against you.

I'm in anesthesiology, so perhaps that's the difference.

Going into EM, so I'm thinking there are some similar personalities there...

 

[lanzarlaluna]

Per my friend who is now an ortho intern, the alcohol tends to flow freely at ortho interview dinners. Very freely...

 

[ANCAdoc]

Order whatever you want. If it's a $30 steak and you want steak, by all means order it. Nobody cares, and if for some reason they might, then I would think twice about the program. That's quite an odd level at which to micromanage and analyze others. It would raise more questions in my mind.

Every dinner I attended, the resident told us to order whatever we wanted. I think one program said no alcohol, but that was school policy.

Don't stress too much. The dinner is meant to be low key. I know I won't be asked about applicants when I help with interview dinners this year.

 

[WholeLottaGame7]

Per my friend who is now an ortho intern, the alcohol tends to flow freely at ortho interview dinners. Very freely...

I kind of picture ortho dinners where everyone is just pounding beers, smashing cans on their foreheads, some belching, all followed by arm-wrestling til 3 in the morning. No?

 

[Winged Scapula]

Per my friend who is now an ortho intern, the alcohol tends to flow freely at ortho interview dinners. Very freely...

We had a male candidate who drank rather liberally and then hit on the lesbian attending.

That was great fun to discuss during the ranking session (he wasn't ranked - for his lack of judgement and his low alcohol tolerance).

 

[Winged Scapula]

Order whatever you want. If it's a $30 steak and you want steak, by all means order it. Nobody cares, and if for some reason they might, then I would think twice about the program. That's quite an odd level at which to micromanage and analyze others. It would raise more questions in my mind.

It might be a generational thing.

My parents raised me to never order the most expensive thing on the menu and that what I did order should be no more expensive than what the host orders. If the host isn't having alcohol, you don't order it. All my friends were raised the same way.

This is not micromanagement but rather respect for other people's money. I can't say I would hold it against someone but be aware that many of the attendings may have been raised with the same message and may look askance at the student who orders an expensive meal.

 

[ANCAdoc]

It might be a generational thing.

My parents raised me to never order the most expensive thing on the menu and that what I did order should be no more expensive than what the host orders. If the host isn't having alcohol, you don't order it. All my friends were raised the same way.

This is not micromanagement but rather respect for other people's money. I can't say I would hold it against someone but be aware that many of the attendings may have been raised with the same message and may look askance at the student who orders an expensive meal.

I agree 100%. Especially when it's a friend or family taking me out for a meal. I follow those rules. But when it comes to a business account paying for the meal, and not out of my friends pocketbook, then I consider it somewhat different.

 

[Seville]

I kind of picture ortho dinners where everyone is just pounding beers, smashing cans on their foreheads, some belching, all followed by arm-wrestling til 3 in the morning. No?

awesome.

 

[ResidentMD]

I agree 100%. Especially when it's a friend or family taking me out for a meal. I follow those rules. But when it comes to a business account paying for the meal, and not out of my friends pocketbook, then I consider it somewhat different.

I agree completely with Winged Scapula's comment, of someone being raised this way and seeming askance when a candidate orders the most expensive thing on the menu. I think anyway, the pre-interview dinner is to get to know the other residents, and you can fill yourself with regular, good food and accomplish the real objective of the pre-interview dinner at the same time. Of course, if the frugality of the program is going to become an issue in your rankings, then by all means, the lobster and expensive wine is yours for grabs

 

[cookymonster]

It might be a generational thing.

My parents raised me to never order the most expensive thing on the menu and that what I did order should be no more expensive than what the host orders. If the host isn't having alcohol, you don't order it. All my friends were raised the same way.

This is not micromanagement but rather respect for other people's money. I can't say I would hold it against someone but be aware that many of the attendings may have been raised with the same message and may look askance at the student who orders an expensive meal.

Who is considered the "host?" Is that the chief resident, or do attendings usually come to these functions? That kind of detracts from the low-key status they're supposed to have.

 

[tetris]

The dinner is meant to be low key. I know I won't be asked about applicants when I help with interview dinners this year.

I treat it as part of the interview, since there's a good chance the residents at the dinner will be writing evals. It's a chance to impress or possibly do the opposite.

I was once at a dinner with 2 other applicants and a resident. I made sure to appear very interested, and this made an impression compared to the other 2 applicants. I even chatted with the waitress about the history of the area and asked her to discuss it with us. On the way home, I got a ride with the resident, so we were alone in his car, and he told me I did the best of the 3.

(I didn't end up matching there, though. )

 

[ResidentMD]

I treat it as part of the interview, since there's a good chance the residents at the dinner will be writing evals. It's a chance to impress or possibly do the opposite.

I was once at a dinner with 2 other applicants and a resident. I made sure to appear very interested, and this made an impression compared to the other 2 applicants. I even chatted with the waitress about the history of the area and asked her to discuss it with us. On the way home, I got a ride with the resident, so we were alone in his car, and he told me I did the best of the 3.

(I didn't end up matching there, though. )

How useful is it to let the resident, who is with you during that evening (or has been assigned to you, either for the pre-interview dinner, or for taking you around the hospital), know that you are extremely interested in coming to that particular program for residency?

Has a current resident on this forum made it a point to tell the selection committee (assuming he/she got along well with that applicant) that this person is really interested, and we should get him/her in?

 

[J1515]

If I walk into the bathroom at the restaurant and the resident is at the urinal, do I wait for him to finish before I start? What if I start and finish before him? Should I just stand there and wait until he zips up? What if I go to wash my hands and there are no paper towels? Is it considered rude to dry my hands on the resident's shirt? Or should I use my own shirt?

Guys, chill out...you're asking whether or not you should use common sense. Imagine there was no SDN - now behave how you think you should. Anyone who is dumb enough to be the only one to order the most expensive thing on the menu or be the only one drinking alcohol at the table deserves what they get.

 

[gluon999]

If I walk into the bathroom at the restaurant and the resident is at the urinal, do I wait for him to finish before I start? What if I start and finish before him? Should I just stand there and wait until he zips up? What if I go to wash my hands and there are no paper towels? Is it considered rude to dry my hands on the resident's shirt? Or should I use my own shirt?

lol well said! These threads are ridiculous! Where has common sense gone?

 

[Doctor Bagel]

Who is considered the "host?" Is that the chief resident, or do attendings usually come to these functions? That kind of detracts from the low-key status they're supposed to have.

I've been on 2 so far, and they've been resident-only deals. I guess the host would be the residents in general, but the ones I've been on have been very laid back, and I don't think anyone was judging the applicant's food choices. Of course, this is in psych where everyone's nice and generally pretty low-key.

 

[kfi4463]

Just order a bottle of this, it should go over well:

 

[Winged Scapula]

I've been on 2 so far, and they've been resident-only deals. I guess the host would be the residents in general, but the ones I've been on have been very laid back, and I don't think anyone was judging the applicant's food choices. Of course, this is in psych where everyone's nice and generally pretty low-key.

Depends on the program. Attendings were invited to ours, which I thought was a mistake, but nonetheless they were there (and yes, in response to the query above, residents can and did use this event to report back to others about the students who were there, so it was a mini interview).

 

[medsRus]

Does it matter if you attend these things? I really don't want to...

 

[smq123]

Does it matter if you attend these things? I really don't want to...

There's always a lot of debate back and forth over how necessary these are.

I think it helps you get to meet more of the residents than you would if you only attended the interview. Plus it's a free meal.

 

[ResidentMD]

Depends on the program. Attendings were invited to ours, which I thought was a mistake, but nonetheless they were there (and yes, in response to the query above, residents can and did use this event to report back to others about the students who were there, so it was a mini interview).

In sort of a corollary to medrus' question, I have certain back to back interviews scheduled (trying to reschedule) where I may not be able to make it in time for the dinner. Does that really go against you?

 

[Winged Scapula]

In sort of a corollary to medrus' question, I have certain back to back interviews scheduled (trying to reschedule) where I may not be able to make it in time for the dinner. Does that really go against you?

Programs understand the scheduling and traveling issue.

I highly doubt that if you were a good candidate who acted interested otherwise, that it would be held against you if you weren't able to go to the dinner the night before. Its not so terrible to say how disappointed you were not to make it but you were traveling from another city.

As was suggested in another thread, you might always consider, if hitting it off with some of the residents, seeing if any of them are up for dinner *after* the interview (of course, this would not be free and you would be expected to pay for yourself) if you wanted to spend more time/learn more about the program.

I'd like to think that if a program were so pissy about you missing the dinner, despite a good reason, that you wouldn't want to be there anyway, right?

 

[ResidentMD]

Its not so terrible to say how disappointed you were not to make it but you were traveling from another city.

As was suggested in another thread, you might always consider, if hitting it off with some of the residents, seeing if any of them are up for dinner *after* the interview (of course, this would not be free and you would be expected to pay for yourself) if you wanted to spend more time/learn more about the program.

I'd like to think that if a program were so pissy about you missing the dinner, despite a good reason, that you wouldn't want to be there anyway, right?

Thanks - both the above were excellent suggestions. I was just feeling if the programs would be all haughty about "you would rather attend an interview there than be at our preinterview dinner" but I guess one cant get everything ...so its good to know they are (in most cases) understanding.

I'm really surprised how program schedules have gotten so full already. I wonder if they will open up later when people start cancelling.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Thanks - both the above were excellent suggestions. I was just feeling if the programs would be all haughty about "you would rather attend an interview there than be at our preinterview dinner" but I guess one cant get everything ...so its good to know they are (in most cases) understanding.

I'd be a tad more haughty if you came for the free dinner and not the interview.

I'm really surprised how program schedules have gotten so full already. I wonder if they will open up later when people start cancelling.

They will. People will start cancelling interviews as they get more.

And please people, don't "no show". Don't call the day before and cancel. Its rude and deprives someone else of your interview spot and besides, sometimes we actually worry about you - are you lost, did you miss your flight, are you sick? If you are truly not interested in coming (for whatever reason), cancel with as much notice as possible.

 

[smq123]

And please people, don't "no show". Don't call the day before and cancel. Its rude and deprives someone else of your interview spot and besides, sometimes we actually worry about you - are you lost, did you miss your flight, are you sick? If you are truly not interested in coming (for whatever reason), cancel with as much notice as possible.

A former surgery PD once said that there is a PD email listserv, apparently - and the PDs at places where applicants just "no-showed" sent out group emails mentioning that "John Brown didn't show up without telling us in advance, and didn't offer an explanation later." So PDs at other places where John Brown interviewed didn't look on him too fondly, and (I imagine) didn't rank him....

PDs talk to each other, I hear. So it's probably in your best interest not to piss them off.

 

[ResidentMD]

A former surgery PD once said that there is a PD email listserv, apparently - and the PDs at places where applicants just "no-showed" sent out group emails mentioning that "John Brown didn't show up without telling us in advance, and didn't offer an explanation later." So PDs at other places where John Brown interviewed didn't look on him too fondly, and (I imagine) didn't rank him....

PDs talk to each other, I hear. So it's probably in your best interest not to piss them off.

I'm really interested to know about these listservs. I had once come across a link to the APDIM message board on google. Obviously couldnt get access to it, but never found the link again

I wonder what they talk about in regards candidates - the "no show" may be one thing.

I'm wondering if they send out group emails like "i have this person emailing me about really wanting to get an interview at my program and how much she likes me. has she emailed others too?" Just to gauge if someone is fibbing or not.

Its really funny how this match process and interview season makes everyone crazy..And to think of the fact that I would have to do that again for fellowships!

 

[Law2Doc]

Not even a beer with your meal? It's not like I'll go into withdrawal if not, but I figured most had a drink (if they desire) with their meal.

You take your cues from the residents at the event. If they are all ordering beers, then you can order one too. But don't be that one guy who orders the expensive single malt scotch. In this tight economy, the interview dinner is coming from a tightly controlled budget. So if most of the people at the dinner are ordering sandwiches and beer, and one dude orders steak or lobster, it will get noticed. As mentioned, some places protect you from yourself by using special menus, but otherwise use common sense. You aren't there to get fed, you are there to make a good impression

 

[NotAProgDirector]

I'm really interested to know about these listservs. I had once come across a link to the APDIM message board on google. Obviously couldnt get access to it, but never found the link again

I wonder what they talk about in regards candidates - the "no show" may be one thing.

I'm wondering if they send out group emails like "i have this person emailing me about really wanting to get an interview at my program and how much she likes me. has she emailed others too?" Just to gauge if someone is fibbing or not.

Its really funny how this match process and interview season makes everyone crazy..And to think of the fact that I would have to do that again for fellowships!

None of this happens in IM. I believe it would be illegal. I will sometimes speak to a PD that has worked with a specific candidate, but this is completely different (and legal if there's an LOR)

 

[ResidentMD]

None of this happens in IM. I believe it would be illegal. I will sometimes speak to a PD that has worked with a specific candidate, but this is completely different (and legal if there's an LOR)

Good to know !

 

[Doctor Bagel]

None of this happens in IM. I believe it would be illegal. I will sometimes speak to a PD that has worked with a specific candidate, but this is completely different (and legal if there's an LOR)

I talked to the IM program director at my home program, and he said exactly what you're saying. But people on SDN always talk about PDs sharing info, like the listserv mentioned above -- does a little more of this happen in other fields, even though it probably is illegal?

 

[Doctor Bagel]

And please people, don't "no show". Don't call the day before and cancel. Its rude and deprives someone else of your interview spot and besides, sometimes we actually worry about you - are you lost, did you miss your flight, are you sick? If you are truly not interested in coming (for whatever reason), cancel with as much notice as possible.

So question about this -- I have some tight travel arrangements coming up. Since it'll be winter, and since I'll be in some areas where snow hits, what happens if you get stuck in the airport or whatever and miss an interview? I'm guessing programs are understanding, but I'm still a little worried about it.

 

[ResidentMD]

I talked to the IM program director at my home program, and he said exactly what you're saying. But people on SDN always talk about PDs sharing info, like the listserv mentioned above -- does a little more of this happen in other fields, even though it probably is illegal?

Yep - this was the reason I had brought it up.. Whenever there is some discussion about applicants/interviewees doing something annoying/foolish, sometimes a phrase comes up "PDs talk". Thats why it sort of left me wondering, what, why and how ?

But its good to know as long as people are sensible, PDs have a lot more important things to discuss

 

[Winged Scapula]

So question about this -- I have some tight travel arrangements coming up. Since it'll be winter, and since I'll be in some areas where snow hits, what happens if you get stuck in the airport or whatever and miss an interview? I'm guessing programs are understanding, but I'm still a little worried about it.

It would be program dependent but because this can be a reality in the NE and Midwest, you would be well advised to leave some time between landing and your interviews. But I'd think most programs would try and accomodate you on another date (if available) if you entirely miss the interview due to weather issues.

 

[Ariee]

Yep - this was the reason I had brought it up.. Whenever there is some discussion about applicants/interviewees doing something annoying/foolish, sometimes a phrase comes up "PDs talk". Thats why it sort of left me wondering, what, why and how ?

But its good to know as long as people are sensible, PDs have a lot more important things to discuss

Thanks for clearing that up RMD and aPD..that be kinda nutso if that was the case...like secret society nutso...

 

[Winged Scapula]

Thanks for clearing that up RMD and aPD..that be kinda nutso if that was the case...like secret society nutso...

I'm not sure how the above statements "clear" things up.

There absolutely is a surgery program listserv that PDs use. Do they talk about candidates? That I cannot verify via the listserv, but I know for a fact that they talk about candidates over the phone - both good things (ie, there's a student here who needs to be in your area for residency, I'd like you to look at his application closely) and negative (I witnessed that in reference to a fellowship applicant, something which another SDN can also verify).

Illegal/NRMP violation? Perhaps but that doesn't stop most people if they feel strongly about something.

 

[Ariee]

I'm not sure how the above statements "clear" things up.

There absolutely is a surgery program listserv that PDs use. Do they talk about candidates? That I cannot verify via the listserv, but I know for a fact that they talk about candidates over the phone - both good things (ie, there's a student here who needs to be in your area for residency, I'd like you to look at his application closely) and negative (I witnessed that in reference to a fellowship applicant, something which another SDN can also verify).

Illegal/NRMP violation? Perhaps but that doesn't stop most people if they feel strongly about something.

aPD's statement:

None of this happens in IM. I believe it would be illegal. I will sometimes speak to a PD that has worked with a specific candidate, but this is completely different (and legal if there's an LOR)

clarified RMD's question:

I'm really interested to know about these listservs. I had once come across a link to the APDIM message board on google. Obviously couldnt get access to it, but never found the link again

I wonder what they talk about in regards candidates - the "no show" may be one thing.

I'm wondering if they send out group emails like "i have this person emailing me about really wanting to get an interview at my program and how much she likes me. has she emailed others too?" Just to gauge if someone is fibbing or not.

Its really funny how this match process and interview season makes everyone crazy..And to think of the fact that I would have to do that again for fellowships!

Since, I'm an IM candidate, aPD's comment was a closed case for me. Though, this is not the case for other specialties, perhaps this is where the confusion is...

 

[tkim]

You take your cues from the residents at the event. If they are all ordering beers, then you can order one too. But don't be that one guy who orders the expensive single malt scotch. In this tight economy, the interview dinner is coming from a tightly controlled budget. So if most of the people at the dinner are ordering sandwiches and beer, and one dude orders steak or lobster, it will get noticed. As mentioned, some places protect you from yourself by using special menus, but otherwise use common sense. You aren't there to get fed, you are there to make a good impression

I forget, or don't know, what and where you matched, but you are one paranoid f*cker. Maybe it's where you interviewed or the specialty you matched in, but please disregard his advice when it comes to EM.

At least at my program, you order what you want, drink what you want, and say and ask what you want, when you come to the pre-interview dinner. No one at my program asked me after the dinner if there was anyone ordering anything too expensive or pounding too much of the top-shelf swill. If you spill beer on me, or hit on my wife I might be pissed, but otherwise we're just there to give you informal, candid info about the program without faculty present.

And if you hit on my wife, I'd probably deck you, but I certainly wouldn't blackball you from the program. I just wouldn't leave you alone with my wife.

Jeeze.