Please rank these programs

[hammersmith]

My aim is a fellowship in cards or hem-onc. Since I am an IMG, I would require all the help I can get from the resdiency program to place me in a good fellowship program besides the usual requirements like research, connections .. etc. For e.g when I was at UCLA-VA, it was very clear that they go all out to help their residents get into a fellowship of his/her choice. Below are the invites in no particular order. Please rank them.

Uconn, ECU, Kaiser (santa clara), loma linda, MCG, OUHSC, UCLA-VA, UCSD, UK, USC, UTMB, Utah, Wayne. Cancelled - UMKC, Wright.

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[scrub monkey]

My aim is a fellowship in cards or hem-onc. Since I am an IMG, I would require all the help I can get from the resdiency program to place me in a good fellowship program besides the usual requirements like research, connections .. etc. For e.g when I was at UCLA-VA, it was very clear that they go all out to help their residents get into a fellowship of his/her choice. Below are the invites in no particular order. Please rank them.

Uconn, ECU, Kaiser (santa clara), loma linda, MCG, OUHSC, UCLA-VA, UCSD, UK, USC, UTMB, Utah, Wayne. Cancelled - UMKC, Wright.

#1 easily is UCSD, especially if you're interested in cards or heme-onc. Strongest academic program of the ones you listed.
#2 UCLA-VA, they give their residents tons of research time, which really helps during fellowship applications. Also the merger with Cedars Sinai will double the home fellowship opportunities available to you, as well as the connections you can make.
#3 USC

 

[hammersmith]

#1 easily is UCSD, especially if you're interested in cards or heme-onc. Strongest academic program of the ones you listed.
#2 UCLA-VA, they give their residents tons of research time, which really helps during fellowship applications. Also the merger with Cedars Sinai will double the home fellowship opportunities available to you, as well as the connections you can make.
#3 USC

Anybody care to comment on programs outside of California. How about Loma Linda?

 

[somdave2005]

scrub monkey, why did you rank UCLA-VA and USC ahead of Utah? I thought Utah was a very good program, whereas USC has a reputation for being hardcore.

#1 easily is UCSD, especially if you're interested in cards or heme-onc. Strongest academic program of the ones you listed.
#2 UCLA-VA, they give their residents tons of research time, which really helps during fellowship applications. Also the merger with Cedars Sinai will double the home fellowship opportunities available to you, as well as the connections you can make.
#3 USC

 

[killabee]

Hey hammersmith, I will be an IMG soon and was interested in applying to the programs you applied to next year due to geographic location. I was wondering what your board scores were. Any other input would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

 

[scrub monkey]

Hey hammersmith, I will be an IMG soon and was interested in applying to the programs you applied to next year due to geographic location. I was wondering what your board scores were. Any other input would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

Actually I was just ranking the California programs. Because of geography, the California programs tend to be pretty competitive. But, the truth is the out of state programs, Utah, Georgia, Oregon, may be better programs for getting into good fellowships. As competition for residencies in California is tougher, competition for fellowships in California is tougher as well. Going to a good IM program in Utah may help much more to secure a good fellowship in Utah. You'd just have to be ok with living in Utah.

 

[somdave2005]

Scrub monkey, are fellowships that location specific where you would have to do residency in the area you want to do fellowship in? or is it really because where you do residency is where you have the most contacts? how hard is it go back to California for fellowship once you've gone away for residency in a quality program somewhere else. I'm thinking of going out of state because the competition for good IM programs in CA is ridiculous. What are your thoughts? Other people please chime in as well.

Actually I was just ranking the California programs. Because of geography, the California programs tend to be pretty competitive. But, the truth is the out of state programs, Utah, Georgia, Oregon, may be better programs for getting into good fellowships. As competition for residencies in California is tougher, competition for fellowships in California is tougher as well. Going to a good IM program in Utah may help much more to secure a good fellowship in Utah. You'd just have to be ok with living in Utah.

 

[bof]

much easier to get a fellowship in the general area where you did your residency. first, you have the best chance to get into your home institution. you also tend to form your connections in the same area. i would say that it would be very very difficult to come back to California for a competitive fellowship (eg. Cards, GI, etc).

Scrub monkey, are fellowships that location specific where you would have to do residency in the area you want to do fellowship in? or is it really because where you do residency is where you have the most contacts? how hard is it go back to California for fellowship once you've gone away for residency in a quality program somewhere else. I'm thinking of going out of state because the competition for good IM programs in CA is ridiculous. What are your thoughts? Other people please chime in as well.

 

[scrub monkey]

much easier to get a fellowship in the general area where you did your residency. first, you have the best chance to get into your home institution. you also tend to form your connections in the same area. i would say that it would be very very difficult to come back to California for a competitive fellowship (eg. Cards, GI, etc).

it's probably harder to come back to california for fellowship if you go to an average level residency. but a lot of west coast programs like to diversify their fellowships and will favor residents from top-notch research oriented out of state programs. look for programs with strong reputations that may not be as competitive because of its location or its reputation for malignancy.

 

[somdave2005]

Thanks Scrub monkey and bof, so it's better to go UCLA-VA or OliveView than University of Utah for coming back to CAli for fellowship but if it's Wash U then better to go there instead of 2nd tier California programs?

What about jobs after fellowship??? Wouldn't it be easier to find a heme onc job in a desirable location such as California if you go to a top ranked residency and eventually top ranked fellowship and then come back?

it's probably harder to come back to california for fellowship if you go to an average level residency. but a lot of west coast programs like to diversify their fellowships and will favor residents from top-notch research oriented out of state programs. look for programs with strong reputations that may not be as competitive because of its location or its reputation for malignancy.

 

[Eidolon6]

Actually I was just ranking the California programs. Because of geography, the California programs tend to be pretty competitive. But, the truth is the out of state programs, Utah, Georgia, Oregon, may be better programs for getting into good fellowships. As competition for residencies in California is tougher, competition for fellowships in California is tougher as well. Going to a good IM program in Utah may help much more to secure a good fellowship in Utah. You'd just have to be ok with living in Utah.

I'll be finishing up in Utah soon and going on to my first choice fellowship in Pulm/CCM and I can say its got pretty good fellowship potential, especially in Heme/Onc and Pulmonary/CCM. The cards program here is in transition, but two of my classmates had no problem landing spots at Texas Heart and Rochester. The GI and Nephrology programs tend to take internal applicants. There is quite a bit of drive for people to stay in Salt Lake City after resiency because of the amenities, namely the great outdoors, low cost of living and skiing and the departments are pretty accomodating to these desires. The politics of the LDS church are odd and it is a conservative state and liquor laws do exist, primarily as an inconvenience, but the low cost of living, no traffic, little crime, great outdoors, world-class skiing and mountain biking are really a draw. Its actually kind of a gem of an academic program because many competitive types are swayed by the stigma of living in Utah, which is overblown in many ways. The program takes fairly few University of Utah grads to avoid the "inbreeding" phenomenon and has folks from all over the country, most of which are definitely not Mormon. The IM program here tends to be very inpatient oriented and most of our grads do fellowships or hospitalist based medicine. Not to say outpatient experience is not there...its just not a training focus. The program is also heavy in critical care training (6-7 months in the 3 years) which is a bonus in my book. I won't say its an academic powerhouse, but it gets its props from other parts of the country, which coming from Utah, says a lot. Its also well-funded and the research campus is expanding by leaps and bounds. As a non-mormon, non-Utahn, whose been happy with my choice to come to Utah, I'd say don't count it out.

 

[somdave2005]

eidolon6, where are you going for fellowship?

I'll be finishing up in Utah soon and going on to my first choice fellowship in Pulm/CCM and I can say its got pretty good fellowship potential, especially in Heme/Onc and Pulmonary/CCM. The cards program here is in transition, but two of my classmates had no problem landing spots at Texas Heart and Rochester. The GI and Nephrology programs tend to take internal applicants. There is quite a bit of drive for people to stay in Salt Lake City because of the amenities, namely the great outdoors and skiing and the departments are pretty accomodating to these desires. The politics of the LDS church are odd and it is a conservative state, but the low cost of living, no traffic, little crime, great outdoors, world-class skiing and mountain biking are really a draw. The IM program here tends to be very inpatient oriented and most of our grads do fellowships or hospitalist based medicine. Not to say OP experience is not there...its just not a training focus. The program is also heavy in critical care training (6-7 months in the 3 years) which is a bonus in my book. I won't say its an academic powerhouse, but it gets its props from other parts of the country, which coming from Utah, says a lot. Its also well-funded and the research campus is expanding by leaps and bounds. As a non-mormon, non-Utahn, whose been happy with my choice to come to Utah, I'd say don't count it out.

 

[Eidolon6]

eidolon6, where are you going for fellowship?

Vanderbilt for Pulm/CCM.

 

[hammersmith]

Vanderbilt for Pulm/CCM.

Ediolon6, I am curious, why wasn't Utah your first choice for Pulm/CCM. Do the Cards/Hem-Onc programs in Utah take their own residents? And, finally I have heard from a few Utah residents about their much dreaded ICU postings - 6 months. Can you comment on this?

 

[Eidolon6]

Ediolon6, I am curious, why wasn't Utah your first choice for Pulm/CCM. Do the Cards/Hem-Onc programs in Utah take their own residents? And, finally I have heard from a few Utah residents about their much dreaded ICU postings - 6 months. Can you comment on this?

I actually wanted to stay in Utah, but my wife wanted to try something else out, primarily because of her job situation. The program here is good, though it is especially heavy on the CCM part of Pulm/CCM. As for Cards and heme/onc things are changing. Last year, the cards program took 3 fellows from our medicine program and 2 from outside (one on a research track). With a change in program director, this year, no Utah residents were taken, presumably because the program is trying to refine its research/academic image. As for the Heme/Onc program, with the opening of the new cancer hospital here, the faculty is actively recruiting for more staff. The fellowship takes 4 fellows a year and the department is very accomodating to those who are interested in staying in Utah and have proven themselves on the wards here.

As for ICU, we get a lot here...6-7 months which is split between University, LDS hospital and the VA. Q3 call and some typical politics. At LDS hospital we also rotate through STRICU, known as "shock-trauma" were we take care of both medical, surgical and neurological ICU patients...a bonus not found at a lot of other places. I have managed trauma pts, subarachnoid bleeds, and transplant patients on that rotation. The program here tends to be strong in inpatient medicine and the critical care training does reflect this. It may be a deterrent for those interested in outpatient subspecialties or outpatient practice, but for the inpatient types, the training is very good.

 

[dadof2]

How about this. If I was to go to lets say Cedars, UC Davis or USC compared to Mayo which would give me the best opportunity for a cards fellowship in California? Any input would be appreciated.

 

[bof]

mayo graduate from 2000-2004:

Mayo
Barnes Hospital - Washington University
Baylor
Baylor Texas Heart Institute
Cleveland Clinic
Columbia
Emory University
Harvard
Johns Hopkins
Loyola
MD Anderson
Massachusetts General
Memorial Sloan-Kettering
National Institutes of Health
Ohio State University
Scripps Foundation
Stanford
Tulane
St. Louis University
University of Medicine/Dentistry, New Jersey
University of Alabama
University of Arizona
University of California, San Francisco
University of Chicago
University of Florida
University of Indiana
University of Iowa
University of Kansas
University of Massachusetts
University of Michigan
University of Minnesota
University of Pennsylvania
University of Pittsburgh
University of Southern California
University of Utah
University of Virginia
University of Washington
University of Wisconsin, Madison
William Beaumont
Yale University

I don't see many people going to california. The fact is that you'll struggle to come back to California for a competitive fellowship, even if you choose a respectable program such as Mayo (USC and UCSF in four years of residents).

How about this. If I was to go to lets say Cedars, UC Davis or USC compared to Mayo which would give me the best opportunity for a cards fellowship in California? Any input would be appreciated.

 

[bof]

all else being equal, it will still be easier to stay in california. i would choose a california residency over a slightly better residency outside if your goal is to ultimately stay in california. sure if your choice was community at cali vs top academic out of cali (ie MGH, BWH, UPENN, JHU, etc) train out of state, but the difference is usually much smaller and in those instances i would choose to train in cali, if that is where i wanted to be for fellowship.

it's probably harder to come back to california for fellowship if you go to an average level residency. but a lot of west coast programs like to diversify their fellowships and will favor residents from top-notch research oriented out of state programs. look for programs with strong reputations that may not be as competitive because of its location or its reputation for malignancy.

 

[somdave2005]

Thanks for the response BOF! Ok how about we switch to more long term goals...such as getting a cards or heme onc job in California after fellowship? Is it ok to do a strong fellowship somewhere else out of California and then come back? how easy is it to find a job then? or is it still a lot better to do a California fellowship instead? It'd be nice to get some fellows or residents opinion on this!

all else being equal, it will still be easier to stay in california. i would choose a california residency over a slightly better residency outside if your goal is to ultimately stay in california. sure if your choice was community at cali vs top academic out of cali (ie MGH, BWH, UPENN, JHU, etc) train out of state, but the difference is usually much smaller and in those instances i would choose to train in cali, if that is where i wanted to be for fellowship.

 

[dadof2]

just wanted to bump this one. I am very interested in this as I am finalizing my Rank List. I want to be Ca for Cards fellowship/practice but I really liked Mayo. Here is what I have so far
1. UCLA
2. Mayo
3. Davis
4. Cedars
5. Mayo Scottsdale
6. Wisconsin
7. UCI
8. Mayo Jacksonville
9. USC
10. UCSF Fresno
please help me out, I am tired of loosing sleep over this thing. I have received word from Davis and Mayo PD that makes me think that I will match there if I want, so number two is the real sticky part for me.

 

[presidiomd]

Most people on here would laugh me off the forum for saying this, but I think you should consider ECU.

1.) Has the prestige of Dr. Randolph Chitwood associated with the department of cardiology and Cardiothorasic surgery. Look him up.
2) ECU is building a new Heart Center which will be completed bye the time you are ready to apply for fellowship. (present Cardiology center is already good), and as a result Cards fellowship will be accepting 5 instead of 3.
3) Program is IMG friendly, and due to its location in Eastern NC, will provide no shortage of patients.

Just an opinion!