PI ripping off my research

[javandane]

prior to starting med school, i worked as a research associate at a medical school in the midwest. the last year of my research was spent developing and testing a new protocol, which produced a lot of data. however, i expressed concern to the PI about publishing the data, as much of it was preliminary, and confirmatory experiments often produced conflicting results. after leaving last summer, i maintained no contact with the lab for various reasons. recently, i discovered the PI published a paper that contained all of the data i generated while developing the protocol. i'm concerned because 1) at the time i performed the experiments, i got conflicting results (which apparently the PI disregarded in favor of publishing the work), and 2) i was given no author line on the paper. is there any recourse i can take?

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[autoimmunity]

Wow, I found myself in a very similar situation. Worked for a tyrant a few years back, got fed up and left, and recently, experiments with what would appear to be my data show up in JI.

What city were you in as far as the Midwest goes? I too would like know if there's any type of recourse. Unfortunately, I would think that there isn't, simply because the final choice is up to the PI. I would love to be mistaken though.

 

[BozoSparky]

Contact the journal and see. If your PI did what you said he/she did, that's not cool!

 

[OctoDoc]

I was a chemistry professor for seven years, with research groups at two universities. Unfortunately, there is little or nothing that you can do about your situation. If you contact the editor, the most that will happen is that he or she will contact the PI, who will give his or her version of events, and you'll look like a fool. Considering that you left the research group and had no further contact with the PI regarding the research or its publication, you were at his mercy. Add to that, the PI called the shots. It was his research program, he procured the funding. Yes, you did come up with your own ideas and did the work, but it was under the auspices of HIS research program. Anything, anything, you did in his research group was his intellectual property, not yours. The theory is that anything you did while in his research group was a product of the research environment and direction that he provided. Whether or not that is really the way it is unfortunately doesn't matter. It's like working for a company - anything you do that makes the company money, you don't get a penny while the company makes millions. Hence, you do the work, he gets the glory. That's the way it works in academia. The tradeoff is that the student gets trained as a scientist. Some say it is a raw deal. Kind of like the abuse that interns receive. Low pay, long hours, mental abuse from the attendings, but that is the price for the training.

It is unfortunate that your former research advisor left your name off of the publication. I would never have done that to anyone who contributed to a paper to an extent that their work showed up in it (i.e. data - even a single data point).

Tough break.

 

[Sust]

Just think of it like this:
If the data was truly as inconsistent as you say it is, then do you really want your name associated with it?
Also, even if the paper was written and you feel the content isnt up to snuff, it can only go so far before the community tries to replicate his work and if they run into problems then the rumor mill begins and people start to ask questions...

For an example of when research goes wrong, please refer to the korean stem cell group: Painful

Think about it.

 

[tigershark]

Most research assistants dont get listed as authors on papers...the PI is under no obligation to give you credit for the work he hired you to do.

 

[OctoDoc]

Most research assistants dont get listed as authors on papers...

That's not true in the chemistry, physics, or engineering fields. The only people that MAY not have his or her names on papers are those whose contribution was relatively minor. In such cases, their contribution is usually acknowledged at the end of the paper, under an "acknowledgements" section.

...the PI is under no obligation to give you credit for the work he hired you to do.

That part is true.

 

[dentusa_2005]

Hii,
Sorry to hear it, but as some one mentioned it is the decision of the PI whether to list the research Technicians. However, if you do not agree with results published you can write to the journal and they will conuct an investigation in to the authenticity of the data. They basically inform to the Institution from where the paper was published. One MIT professor got fired last year for publishing fabricated data last . The article was published in Nature genetics.
it is also common that many technicians after come out of the lab go against the PI and spread roumors, its not fare either. PIs have better understanding of the subjects than the Techs

 

[Waiting4Ganong]

I'd agree. If you think the data is suspect and you are sure that what is shown in the paper is your data (and not what he has done since now the lab has the system working optimally) then write a letter to the PI stating that

a) As he knows from date1-date2 you set up and ran these experiments
b) You previously showed that results of said experiments were inconsistent
c) you'd therefore be interested to:

i) hear what happened since you worked there to change this situation and
ii) why you weren't acknowledged in some way on the paper.

Keep it polite and non-accusatory.


Possible Outcome A:
He'll write back saying your work was preliminary, he has since refined what you did, and that as none of your work made it into the final paper he didn't feel the need to acknowledge you. If he is anything but a ***** though he'll thank you for your work and wish you well in your further studies.

You'll then have a set of correspondence from PI agreeing that you did important preliminary work that set the stage for the paper he published.
Not as good as being an author or as an acknowledgement but it is salvaging something out of this crummy situation.

Possible Outcome B: He'll deny all and be a jerk or not even reply (within two months). Then it is legitimate to take your concerns to the editor of the journal. Send a copy of both letters to the head of the department that the PI works in.

 

[chrisjohn]

Gee what else is new? PI's using students for indentured servants, using their hard work and data to get HUGE funding, i.e. R1s, then not giving credit or paying the student balls.

Research by definition F**** the person who actually did the work, even if the hypothesis and paradigm for the experiment are the techs/students.

Try this on. Student does work. Writes thesis. Gets ready to publish thesis. Data conflicts with PIs current clinical research trajectory. PI refuses to allow publication. PI continues to pursue procedures that are quite possibly EXTREMELY harmful to the patient. IRB refuses to pull protocol because of PIs political and monetary influence.

Best thing you can do is write it off as a valuable learning experience.

 

[punk]

Gee what else is new? PI's using students for indentured servants, using their hard work and data to get HUGE funding, i.e. R1s, then not giving credit or paying the student balls.

Research by definition F**** the person who actually did the work, even if the hypothesis and paradigm for the experiment are the techs/students.

Try this on. Student does work. Writes thesis. Gets ready to publish thesis. Data conflicts with PIs current clinical research trajectory. PI refuses to allow publication. PI continues to pursue procedures that are quite possibly EXTREMELY harmful to the patient. IRB refuses to pull protocol because of PIs political and monetary influence.

Best thing you can do is write it off as a valuable learning experience.

I wrote my thesis, data for all subjects was gathered by me alone. I made my intentions clear that I wanted to be the first author. I wrote down the paper, gave it to one of my supervisors for approval. He never returned it despite repeated request, it has been one year now. My supervisor is unhappy because he is not the first author and is now refuses to give approval for my manuscript. This is despite the fact that I have already given him a first author publication, which again was solely mine and another med student's effort

 

[OctoDoc]

I wrote my thesis, data for all subjects was gathered by me alone. I made my intentions clear that I wanted to be the first author. I wrote down the paper, gave it to one of my supervisors for approval. He never returned it despite repeated request, it has been one year now. My supervisor is unhappy because he is not the first author and is now refuses to give approval for my manuscript. This is despite the fact that I have already given him a first author publication, which again was solely mine and another med student's effort

You worked for your research advisor. It was not independent research. Was it your research program? Was it your laboratory? Resources? Funding? You were in no place to make demands on your research advisor. You worked for him. But on the other hand, it is customary for the PI to have his or her name last. That is actually a much greater honor than first author. I wonder why your advisor was upset about him not being the first. Are you sure that is the reason that he doesn't want the paper published? It seems petty, and doesn't make sense. He would be the one to control submission, and it is at his discretion to order the authors. It seems more likely that he would hold up publication due to problems with the paper's content (including not being complete in terms of breadth and depth of direct and supporting data, analysis of results, discussion, and conclusions relative to the relevant body of literature). In any case, it sounds like you didn't handle the situation with tact or diplomacy, and as such may have ruined any chance of a LOR from him.

By the way, if you worked for a company, and invented something that made the company ten million dollars, would you think that you were entitled to the intellectual property (i.e. be the owner of the patent) or to some of that money generated therefrom?

Graduate students in chemistry, physics, and engineering seem to understand all this, without being told. If a graduate student or post-doc acted as did the poster above, they would receive a stern reprimand and lecture. If it persisted, they would be summarily dismissed from the research group.

Are the posts in this thread reflective of the beliefs of the general med student and pre-med student populations? I am truly curious, and would welcome comments...,

 

[punk]

You worked for your research advisor. It was not independent research. Was it your research program? Was it your laboratory? Resources? Funding? You were in no place to make demands on your research advisor. You worked for him. But on the other hand, it is customary for the PI to have his or her name last. That is actually a much greater honor than first author. I wonder why your advisor was upset about him not being the first. Are you sure that is the reason that he doesn't want the paper published? It seems petty, and doesn't make sense. He would be the one to control submission, and it is at his discretion to order the authors. It seems more likely that he would hold up publication due to problems with the paper's content (including not being complete in terms of breadth and depth of direct and supporting data, analysis of results, discussion, and conclusions relative to the relevant body of literature). In any case, it sounds like you didn't handle the situation with tact or diplomacy, and as such may have ruined any chance of a LOR from him.

By the way, if you worked for a company, and invented something that made the company ten million dollars, would you think that you were entitled to the intellectual property (i.e. be the owner of the patent) or to some of that money generated therefrom?

Graduate students in chemistry, physics, and engineering seem to understand all this, without being told. If a graduate student or post-doc acted as did the poster above, they would receive a stern reprimand and lecture. If it persisted, they would be summarily dismissed from the research group.

Are the posts in this thread reflective of the beliefs of the general med student and pre-med student populations? I am truly curious, and would welcome comments...,

No, it was MY resources, MY funding, the lab neither belonged to the advisor nor me, but to the last author. I got certificate from all involved that this was my bonafide original research work and got a good LOR too...so nothing to worry about on that part. My advisor says that he is too busy to look into that paper, but he says that it deserves to go into a bigger name journals. I dont trust him that he has not found time to look into the paper for one whole year. My conclusions might be wrong, but I deserve a feed back at least.

 

[OctoDoc]

No, it was MY resources, MY funding, the lab neither belonged to the advisor nor me, but to the last author. I got certificate from all involved that this was my bonafide original research work and got a good LOR too...so nothing to worry about on that part. My advisor says that he is too busy to look into that paper, but he says that it deserves to go into a bigger name journals. I dont trust him that he has not found time to look into the paper for one whole year. My conclusions might be wrong, but I deserve a feed back at least.

That's a very different story than what you posted earlier. And certainly a much better situation. Why don't you commit your advisor to taking action, one way or another. Discuss your concern with him (i.e. the work was done over a year ago, the manuscript has already been written, and timely publication is of paramount importance to you. Ask him to give you a frank assessment of the paper, and to be specific as to why he isn't helping you to pursue publication. Tell him you want to meet with him to discuss moving forward with this. Do not let him waffle and be non-committal. Make an appointment; get a specific date and time. If you cannot meet with him in person, tell him you want a telephone appointment. But above all, be tactful and respectful.

If all else fails, and considering that it was truly your research, tell your advisor that if he is too busy to help you with the publication, inform him that you'd like to enlist the help of someone in a position to help you move forward with this (a nice way of saying that you want to switch advisors (e.g. another faculty member, or the department head)) and have that person help you to pursue publication of your work.

Best of luck!

P.S. Why don't you go to the last author? It seems to me that he or she is the one that should be helping you with publication.

 

[punk]

That's a very different story than what you posted earlier. And certainly a much better situation. Why don't you commit your advisor to taking action, one way or another. Discuss your concern with him (i.e. the work was done over a year ago, the manuscript has already been written, and timely publication is of paramount importance to you. Ask him to give you a frank assessment of the paper, and to be specific as to why he isn't helping you to pursue publication. Tell him you want to meet with him to discuss moving forward with this. Do not let him waffle and be non-committal. Make an appointment; get a specific date and time. If you cannot meet with him in person, tell him you want a telephone appointment. But above all, be tactful and respectful.

If all else fails, and considering that it was truly your research, tell your advisor that if he is too busy to help you with the publication, inform him that you'd like to enlist the help of someone in a position to help you move forward with this (a nice way of saying that you want to switch advisors (e.g. another faculty member, or the department head)) and have that person help you to pursue publication of your work.

Best of luck!

P.S. Why don't you go to the last author? It seems to me that he or she is the one that should be helping you with publication.

The last author has already edited it and okayed the manuscript, the onus now is on the advisor.

I hope your suggestions work because I am going to leave my school soon.

Thanks

 

[MasonPrehealth]

I'll do my best not to repeat other suggestions. But I'm going to agree with OctoDoc: there's really nothing much you can do about it.

prior to starting med school, i worked as a research associate at a medical school in the midwest. the last year of my research was spent developing and testing a new protocol, which produced a lot of data. however, i expressed concern to the PI about publishing the data, as much of it was preliminary, and confirmatory experiments often produced conflicting results. after leaving last summer, i maintained no contact with the lab for various reasons.

Okay... without getting too detailed, what were those reasons? Do you know whether the lab group improved upon your protocol by performing any validation experiments? Did you come up with the protocol yourself?

recently, i discovered the PI published a paper that contained all of the data i generated while developing the protocol. i'm concerned because 1) at the time i performed the experiments, i got conflicting results (which apparently the PI disregarded in favor of publishing the work), and 2) i was given no author line on the paper. is there any recourse i can take?

Since you admit you dropped contact from the lab, there really isn't much you can claim regarding your right as an author. As a research tech, the PI has every right to consider you included or excluded at his/her pleasure. Sure, it would not hurt to include a RT as an author if I thought it was deserving, but did you contribute to writing the paper itself? If you had a manuscript that was the basis for the final document, you have an argument; if you didn't, your argument is less strong (for me).

There may be an authorship policy that is in place at your former institution. If so, you can approach your former supervisor citing that policy (or whatever policy from the journal that the paper will go), but you need to be sure what it says about your eligibility for authorship.

 

[MasonPrehealth]

The last author has already edited it and okayed the manuscript, the onus now is on the advisor.

Thanks

I was a bit confused on the situation. You have an advisor but you all work under the umbrella of a senior scientist? You have your own funding, but is this an independent research grant or a fellowship? If it's a fellowship with your advisor as your sponsor, the advisor should be on the author list. But not first.

The other important question: where does your thesis committee and the senior author stand on this?

This sounds to me like you need a meeting among the authors convened by your senior scientist. I do not know the rank of your "advisor" or his/her motivation to be a first author, but he/she should be able to explain the situation to the other authors in the group. In your favor, you did the trenchwork for your research and wrote the first draft (I presume), so in my book, you are entitled to a first-author position (not shared).

Good luck with your meeting, and make sure you do not try to be too defensive or accusatory. Stand your ground without being too emotional.

 

[BozoSparky]

This is what Physical Review Letters, a prominent physics journal, has to say about authorship. No doubt that these recommendations are ignored by PIs in every field, but this is how it should be.



04.1 STATEMENT ON TREATMENT OF SUBORDINATES

(Adopted by Council on April 30, 2004)

Subordinates should be treated with respect and with concern for their well-being. Supervisors have the responsibility to facilitate the research, educational, and professional development of subordinates, to provide a safe, supportive working environment and fair compensation, and to promote the timely advance of graduate students and young researchers to the next stage of career development. In addition, supervisors should ensure that subordinates know how to appeal decisions without fear of retribution.

Contributions of subordinates should be properly acknowledged in publications, presentations, and performance appraisals. In particular, subordinates who have made significant contributions to the concept, design, execution, or interpretation of a research study should be afforded the opportunity of authorship of resulting publications, consistent with APS Guidelines for Professional Conduct.

Supervisors and/or other senior scientists should not be listed on papers of subordinates unless they have also contributed significantly to the concept, design, execution or interpretation of the research study.


Mentoring of students, postdoctoral researchers, and employees with respect to intellectual development, professional and ethical standards, and career guidance, is a core responsibility for supervisors. Periodic communication of constructive performance appraisals is essential.

These guidelines apply equally for subordinates in permanent positions and for those in temporary or visiting positions.

 

[autoimmunity]

Sorry, I don't intend to hijack the thread, but on a similar note, what's the policy with grant applications?

My boss is applying for a grant and using MY data in conjunction with some of his. Am I entitled to some sort of acknowledgement or authorship on the grant application?

Thanks in advance.

 

[OctoDoc]

Sorry, I don't intend to hijack the thread, but on a similar note, what's the policy with grant applications?

My boss is applying for a grant and using MY data in conjunction with some of his. Am I entitled to some sort of acknowledgement or authorship on the grant application?

Thanks in advance.

No. He is your boss, you work for him. Any product of your work is his, not yours. Furthermore, you are not in a position to be able to submit grants. Usually you have to be a professor or the equivalent. Some grant agencies allow proposals from senior research personnel like postdocs, Senior Scientists, and Visiting Scientists. Graduate students, undergraduate students, and techs cannot submit grants, unless the program is geared specifically for them. In that case, professors don't waste their time with them, since they are for relatively little money.

 

[BozoSparky]

No. He is your boss, you work for him. Any product of your work is his, not yours. Furthermore, you are not in a position to be able to submit grants. Usually you have to be a professor or the equivalent. Some grant agencies allow proposals from senior research personnel like postdocs, Senior Scientists, and Visiting Scientists. Graduate students, undergraduate students, and techs cannot submit grants, unless the program is geared specifically for them. In that case, professors don't waste their time with them, since they are for relatively little money.

Octo, who did you work for, Darth Vader???

My lab wasn't so terrible. We got credit all the time and authorship was discussed openly. My boss made us part of a team. I definitely felt like what I worked on was, for the most part, "my" work.

 

[OctoDoc]

Octo, who did you work for, Darth Vader???

My lab wasn't so terrible. We got credit all the time and authorship was discussed openly. My boss made us part of a team. I definitely felt like what I worked on was, for the most part, "my" work.

You are missing my point. While you are part of a team, your boss is the leader. While you get credit and authorship, it is within the realm of the research group. On a larger scale, it is his work, because ultimately, it is his research program. In a global sense, he can claim that all work performed in his laboratory and under his direction (however little he may actually contribute or oversee to the project) as his. Everyone in the scientific community knows that this means that he did not do all the work or come up with all of the ideas himself.

How am I qualified to say this? I was a professor with a research group at two different universities. And I certainly was not mean (in fact, I have been criticized for being too nice). Although everyone knows that students do all of the work, when people inquire as to whose body of work is in the publication (or presentation, or in the news story, etc.), ultimate credit invariably goes to the professor, not the student.

 

[autoimmunity]

No. He is your boss, you work for him. Any product of your work is his, not yours. Furthermore, you are not in a position to be able to submit grants. Usually you have to be a professor or the equivalent. Some grant agencies allow proposals from senior research personnel like postdocs, Senior Scientists, and Visiting Scientists. Graduate students, undergraduate students, and techs cannot submit grants, unless the program is geared specifically for them. In that case, professors don't waste their time with them, since they are for relatively little money.

Even if I idependently came up with the idea/concept/design of the experiment? That's so poopy. I guess it just would have been nice to receive some acknowledgement. But I'm not losing any sleep over it. Thanks for the feedback!

 

[Surg Path]

Sorry, I don't intend to hijack the thread, but on a similar note, what's the policy with grant applications?

My boss is applying for a grant and using MY data in conjunction with some of his. Am I entitled to some sort of acknowledgement or authorship on the grant application?

Thanks in advance.

Grants don't have typical authorship, and there is generally only one PI for a grant.

The good news, if your PI is using your data in a grant, you should be in good shape to get your name on the subsequent paper.

 

[MasonPrehealth]

You could be listed as a member of key personnel. But if you're not an independent researcher, don't fret about your "name" on the grant.

Any grant reviewer doesn't care about who developed the protocols described in a grant. The reviewer cares about its validation. If you did that validation, you should be mentioned in a paper. But recognition in a grant is not common until you've published the protocol (previously described in Autoimmunity et al., 2006).

 

[DougFlutie]

...it is customary for the PI to have his or her name last. That is actually a much greater honor than first author...

I've been a bit confused about this... in say, a 3 author paper, which slot is considered most prestigious/denotes largest contribution?

 

[Hard24Get]

I've been a bit confused about this... in say, a 3 author paper, which slot is considered most prestigious/denotes largest contribution?

First author is the most prestigious for those that don't have their own lab.
Last author is the most prestigious for those that do.

(so if you are a colaborating PI, 2nd to last is better than 3rd to last, but vice versa if you are a collaborating student/postdoc)

 

[Surg Path]

First author is the most prestigious for those that don't have their own lab.
Last author is the most prestigious for those that do.

(so if you are a colaborating PI, 2nd to last is better than 3rd to last, but vice versa if you are a collaborating student/postdoc)

I agree. Only exception might be a multicenter clinical trial, in which the first author may be considered the senior author (whereas senior author would usually be last). Fot these papers, all authors are probably department heads at various institutions that participate in multicenter trials through large intergroups, such as CALGB, NSABP, BCIRG, ect.

 

[DropkickMurphy]

This is why I never liked the idea of piddling around in a lab, messing with cultures or similar stuff. It always leads to this contemptuous collision of attitudes......give me clinical research any day...

 

[BozoSparky]

This is why I never liked the idea of piddling around in a lab, messing with cultures or similar stuff. It always leads to this contemptuous collision of attitudes......give me clinical research any day...

haha...but it also leads to a real scientific understanding...and, for me, beats counting heads any day. molecular medicine...

 

[DropkickMurphy]

haha...but it also leads to a real scientific understanding...and, for me, beats counting heads any day. molecular medicine...

Eh....have fun with that....I think my problem is mostly that there is a lack of interesting bench research around here....

 

[dr.z]

I was a chemistry professor for seven years, with research groups at two universities. Unfortunately, there is little or nothing that you can do about your situation. If you contact the editor, the most that will happen is that he or she will contact the PI, who will give his or her version of events, and you'll look like a fool. Considering that you left the research group and had no further contact with the PI regarding the research or its publication, you were at his mercy. Add to that, the PI called the shots. It was his research program, he procured the funding. Yes, you did come up with your own ideas and did the work, but it was under the auspices of HIS research program. Anything, anything, you did in his research group was his intellectual property, not yours. The theory is that anything you did while in his research group was a product of the research environment and direction that he provided. Whether or not that is really the way it is unfortunately doesn't matter. It's like working for a company - anything you do that makes the company money, you don't get a penny while the company makes millions. Hence, you do the work, he gets the glory. That's the way it works in academia. The tradeoff is that the student gets trained as a scientist. Some say it is a raw deal. Kind of like the abuse that interns receive. Low pay, long hours, mental abuse from the attendings, but that is the price for the training.

It is unfortunate that your former research advisor left your name off of the publication. I would never have done that to anyone who contributed to a paper to an extent that their work showed up in it (i.e. data - even a single data point).

Tough break.

I agree. Although the things done were unethical, there isn't much you can do now. It will be a very tough battle to fight.

 

[BozoSparky]

Eh....have fun with that....I think my problem is mostly that there is a lack of interesting bench research around here....

hey murphy...don't mind me...i'm just being a baby after my clinical epidemiology course beat up on the basic sciences. i think both are very important.