Physician Salaries - below 100K

[45408]

Even those clinic-based specialties don't always work just 9-5 with an hour for lunch.

I present to you a rural FM doc solo or in small practice.

I wasn't naming any specialties.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Mace1370]

It's like talking to a brick wall...

Or you could just admit that you can't back up your opinions with rational arguments, and instead have to resort to ad hominum attacks and other logical fallacies.

 

[Random Anesthesiologist]

I wasn't naming any specialties.

Ahh. My bad.

 

[The Angriest Bird]

I think 80-100K is more than enough salary for a physician regardless of specialty.

 

[Cp22kjer]

but I worried to death I will lose my S.O. over this. Does the job stability uncertainty in engineering outweigh the the personal life/relationship uncertainty in medical training? That is the question I am struggling with.

I will admit I'm worried too and I realize things will be different once school starts next week. You can find a way to make it work, many people have.

 

[michaelrack]

According to Obama, if you perform foot amputations you'll be making $100,000 all in a day's work. Immediately.

[YOUTUBE]SG56B2et4M8[/YOUTUBE]

To be fair, he only said the surgeon would be reimbursed $30,000-$50,000. I guess a surgeon could do more than one amputation per day. There are his expenses to be considered, also. If Obama's figures were accurate, I guess a hard-working surgeon could net $75,000 per day.

 

[turkeyjerky]

Does he know anything about healthcare?

I like to think that Obama dumbs it down when he's talking to the american people. At least I hope so....

 

[coffeebeanjenn]

I like to think that Obama dumbs it down when he's talking to the american people. At least I hope so....

Wouldn't he dumb it down the other way, though? Explaining that a surgeon would make $75,000 in a day just perpetuates the idea that doctors are the super-rich and are thieving from the sickly poor.

 

[ChemEngSoonMD]

I like to think that Obama dumbs it down when he's talking to the american people. At least I hope so....

I would hope so too, because the average american is pretty dumb. Even on this forum, I see a lot of failing to use Google.

 

[DrJosephKim]

Many physicians already have salaries that are less than $100k. For instance, if you're in academia, then you can expect lower salaries. I think the bigger question is: how will reform impact those physicians who are making really high salaries?

 

[Random Anesthesiologist]

I like to think that Obama dumbs it down when he's talking to the american people. At least I hope so....

He pretty much has to since he doesn't know what he's talking about, admits to not reading bills before pushing them onto us, and wants to push this bill through in such a hurry before we realize how bad it really is.

Sorry, but there's no "dumbing down" Obama can do to America when it has to be "dumbed down" for him first.

 

[turkeyjerky]

Wouldn't he dumb it down the other way, though? Explaining that a surgeon would make $75,000 in a day just perpetuates the idea that doctors are the super-rich and are thieving from the sickly poor.

Yeah, but he didn't say it anything like that. I'm not sure if you watched the clip or not, but he was making a point that we should be focused on treating diabetic foot ulcers before amputation is required. Although I'd prefer he was more precise in his language, I'm willing to forgive the faux paus and assume he meant that the total cost of the amputation was 40 grand (which seems believable to me). I really do hate that he dumbs stuff down and glosses over details though. I mean, his op-ed the other day in the Times read like it was written for third-graders.

Many physicians already have salaries that are less than $100k. For instance, if you're in academia, then you can expect lower salaries. I think the bigger question is: how will reform impact those physicians who are making really high salaries?

Really? I've looked at our professors' salaries and none are that low. I've also never heard of a full-time doc making less than 100k in private practice before.

 

[Sol Rosenberg]

Former engineer here. So it is worth it to switch from engineering to medicine based solely on job security alone? How in the world do you deal with the human factor? If it were just a year or two, maybe, but this is 8 years! It's worth putting your S.O. through 3rd year and residency just to secure your retirement? I have a hard time believing there are no engineers over the age of 40.

Of course not.

Edit: actually, thinking about it, every engineer I worked with on my last team with the exception of one was over 40. I'm really struggling with the decision to leave my old career and life behind. I want to help peoples lives, and that's why I'm here, but I worried to death I will lose my S.O. over this. Does the job stability uncertainty in engineering outweigh the the personal life/relationship uncertainty in medical training? That is the question I am struggling with.

Why?

 

[AlexMD]

Psychiatrists making $600k? "Prescribing" some (extra) benzos on the side, I suppose?

yeah baby. In addition to psych practice I learned sleep medicine and opened my own sleep lab. that's the ticket

 

[TRN1983]

With the potential salary drop in physician salaries how low are they predicted to go?


Possibly under $100 K post residency?

Just look at the other industrialized countries with socialized medicine to get an idea, they're relatively similar in pay.

Japan is often touted for it's efficiency. I believe, last I checked, physicians averaged about $130k/yr and nurses were making about $1600/month. 80% of their hospitals are privately owned, but the government strictly controls reimbursement. <-- point: it doesn't take salary caps of any sort to kill income, it's about what the government decides to pay.

One last thing, to those of you who have bought into the idea that this is a public "option"--option meaning not a replacement for private insurance--then read all of the stipulations the federal government would put into place. It would effectively force the private insurance companies out of the picture, and it would completely control reimbursement to providers and coverage of all citizens. It's a power grab.

If the federal government truly wanted a safe transition to healthcare reform, as opposed to a power grab, we'd temporarily close the gap of uninsured Americans (a very small number of people) who don't have a choice in their situation and then start methodically making changes to the system in order to streamline it, perhaps even address "tort reform".

However, being that the lawyers own the Democratic party tort reform's not even on the table and scare tactics are being used to rush through a massive overhaul that was designed in a ridiculously short period of time. It's a power grab. The federal government is trying to "save us from ourselves" by eating up more power.

My plea to America: please don't be so quick to give up your freedom for luxuries and conveniences. It took millenia and millions of lives before a place as free as the US could come into existence.

 

[Renova]

Really? I've looked at our professors' salaries and none are that low. I've also never heard of a full-time doc making less than 100k in private practice before.

You better believe it.

According to a study by the American Academy of Pediatrics, the average starting salary for a general peds attending fresh out of residency in 2002 was just $99,123 (down from 103,161 in 1997). Salaries in more desirable metropolitan locales were presumably lower. When I was on my peds rotation, I remember my senior resident complaining about having to move to a small Midwestern town because he couldn't find a job in our city offering more than ~$90K.

Pediatric Training and Job Market Trends: Results From the American Academy of Pediatrics Third-Year Resident Survey, 1997-2002

 

[Doublecortin]

Guys,
don't dwell on statistics much. Income in different specialties are so unpredictable. I know anesthesiologists making 220k and psychiatrists making over 600k
It depends on hours, settings etc. If u r in private practice, use all modern systems (EMR, e-scripts, etc), don't use dino age services such as answ.service and billing person, keep your overhead low, you can make few hundred thousand a year more just by saving on unnecessary things.
I am telling you this based on my own experience. You can start your own practice, work decent hours, make your patient happy and swim in cash

i hope you are right man(woman)!

 

[psychforme]

Try using counterarguments instead of internet meme's. And no, debt and length of training are not valid counterarguments to high salaries since there are enough rich kids who are ready to go through medical education for the prestige.

 

[turkeyjerky]

You better believe it.

According to a study by the American Academy of Pediatrics, the average starting salary for a general peds attending fresh out of residency in 2002 was just $99,123 (down from 103,161 in 1997). Salaries in more desirable metropolitan locales were presumably lower. When I was on my peds rotation, I remember my senior resident complaining about having to move to a small Midwestern town because he couldn't find a job in our city offering more than ~$90K.

Pediatric Training and Job Market Trends: Results From the American Academy of Pediatrics Third-Year Resident Survey, 1997-2002

good thing I've never been interested in peds

 

[Charles_Carmichael]

Try using counterarguments instead of internet meme's. And no, debt and length of training are not valid counterarguments to high salaries since there are enough rich kids who are ready to go through medical education for the prestige.

This is one of the most ridiculous things I've heard. Citations please.

Debt and length of training are absolutely valid arguments to higher salaries. Why do you think docs in other countries have lower salaries? Their medical education is free. Not only that, their malpractice insurance is much less compared to here, they work fewer hours, etc.

You don't think that spending 7+ years in training after college is a valid argument for wanting to make a good amount of money? If you can't use length of training and debt as reasons for high salaries, what do you think we should use? How much the the profession is worth to society? Even there, medicine has more worth to society than many other professions.

 

[Dr Oops]

Try using counterarguments instead of internet meme's. And no, debt and length of training are not valid counterarguments to high salaries since there are enough rich kids who are ready to go through medical education for the prestige.

debt and length of training are counterarguments because people do things based on expected gain.

The debt and length of training (not to mention all the hoops you have to jump through in college) are the costs of becoming a doctor. They are very high costs. Thus if the gain vs costs is low, less people will become doctors conversely if the gain vs costs is high people will deem it worth it to become a doctor and more people will be willing to put in the effort.

The primary care shortage is shortage is a perfect example of this. Most students do not deem the low pay of primary care worth it and thus shift to the specialties.

by the way most of my friends have been complaining about how we havent gotten our money from loan dispersal

Edit: i just glanced over your posts in this thread and you have not stated any reason for why debt and length of training are not justifications for high salaries. Please enlighten us.

 

[Concubine]

Try using counterarguments instead of internet meme's. And no, debt and length of training are not valid counterarguments to high salaries since there are enough rich kids who are ready to go through medical education for the prestige.

Because rich kids don't care about money.

 

[scube]

in response to Obamas theory of preventative care for diabetes. why don't we make money preventing the sequela and the disease itself. How? Its called a vice tax. Tax the hell out of sodas, sweets, alcohol and tobacco. This would reduce the amount of these items consumed by america and thus decrease the amount of disease we need to treat. This makes sense to me. a pack of smokes should be 20 bucks, leaving us 15 dollars to spend on healthcare. an extra dollar on a beer, boom the case a day people cant afford it and they might spend the same amount and drink 6-8 less beers a day. soda at an extra penny or two an ounce. no more three 32oz a day habits. i realize this doesn't actually work this idealistic but it would make a very large and positive change.

also i know PCP that make over 300K, and some that don't get 100K. its all how they practice. the guys that make big bucks have a large practice that does everything in house(radiology, physical therapy, stress tests, blood work ect).

 

[280224]

in response to Obamas theory of preventative care for diabetes. why don't we make money preventing the sequela and the disease itself. How? Its called a vice tax. Tax the hell out of sodas, sweets, alcohol and tobacco. This would reduce the amount of these items consumed by america and thus decrease the amount of disease we need to treat. This makes sense to me. a pack of smokes should be 20 bucks, leaving us 15 dollars to spend on healthcare. an extra dollar on a beer, boom the case a day people cant afford it and they might spend the same amount and drink 6-8 less beers a day. soda at an extra penny or two an ounce. no more three 32oz a day habits. i realize this doesn't actually work this idealistic but it would make a very large and positive change.

If physicians like their autonomy, they should also respect that of their fellow humans. People should be able to make their own decisions and suffer any negative consequences of them. I think the best solution is not to force the burden on others for someone else's dumb decisions.

 

[scube]

If physicians like their autonomy, they should also respect that of their fellow humans. People should be able to make their own decisions and suffer any negative consequences of them. I think the best solution is not to force the burden on others for someone else's dumb decisions.

exactly what a vice tax does. the idiot who makes these decisions pays for the increase to health care costs by their vice. fewer people would do it as a bonus. why should i put a dime in the pot for people who get vice related disease. but thanks for making my point betterl

 

[psychforme]

debt and length of training are counterarguments because people do things based on expected gain.

Gains are not guaranteed.

The debt and length of training (not to mention all the hoops you have to jump through in college) are the costs of becoming a doctor. They are very high costs. Thus if the gain vs costs is low, less people will become doctors conversely if the gain vs costs is high people will deem it worth it to become a doctor and more people will be willing to put in the effort.

So import specialists from India.

The primary care shortage is shortage is a perfect example of this. Most students do not deem the low pay of primary care worth it and thus shift to the specialties.

So lower subspecialty salary.

Edit: i just glanced over your posts in this thread and you have not stated any reason for why debt and length of training are not justifications for high salaries. Please enlighten us.

Because the market should be able to dictate salary. Currently government is inflating physician pay.

 

[TexasFight]

I think 80-100K is more than enough salary for a physician regardless of specialty.

Your loans shouldn't affect your salary. If people would stop taking ******edly huge loans schools would be forced to lower tuition.

Cost of life would go down if government-backed loan bubbles would cease.

Try using counterarguments instead of internet meme's. And no, debt and length of training are not valid counterarguments to high salaries since there are enough rich kids who are ready to go through medical education for the prestige.

Gains are not guaranteed.


So import specialists from India.

So lower subspecialty salary.

Because the market should be able to dictate salary. Currently government is inflating physician pay.

:troll:

 

[Sol Rosenberg]

exactly what a vice tax does. the idiot who makes these decisions pays for the increase to health care costs by their vice. fewer people would do it as a bonus. why should i put a dime in the pot for people who get vice related disease. but thanks for making my point betterl

The philosophical argument that you're ignoring is what makes physicians more deserving of a break from being taxed by society than does the average person? Don't go this route.....

 

[scube]

The philosophical argument that you're ignoring is what makes physicians more deserving of a break from being taxed by society than does the average person? Don't go this route.....

I am in no way ignoring that. if a doctor chooses to drink, smoke or drink soda they would be taxed. Plenty of them do. They would be taxed the same as any other individual that partakes in these activities. I would be ignoring it if I said everyone who is not a healthcare provider should pay for vice taxes.

the physician who has these vices should be taxed like everyone else.

Vice taxes are a way to decrease the amount of a product being used without eliminating the choice to do it. by doing so it also offsets the burden to society. It is similar to the reverse in many healthcare reform discussions that a person who takes care of themselves shouldn't pay as much because they aren't as large as a burden to the system. In fact I would guess the ONLY reason we don't already have them is due to the industry spending money to prevent it thus keeping their sales up.

 

[Dr Oops]

Gains are not guaranteed.


So import specialists from India.

So lower subspecialty salary.

Because the market should be able to dictate salary. Currently government is inflating physician pay.

your an idiot. What I explained is basically market value and the government deflates physician pay by not even paying cost for certain procedures.

sigh I knew you were trolling but i got sucked in anyway

 

[45408]

Gains are not guaranteed.


So import specialists from India.

So lower subspecialty salary.

Because the market should be able to dictate salary. Currently government is inflating physician pay.

How about no, Scott?

 

[scube]

actually there is one specialty that is market driven. cosmetic surgery. their salaries aren't less than 100K. one specific procedure has also been mostly if not entirely market driven, Lasik. the technology has gotten much better and the consumers price has dropped, I assume due to the combination of those two effects canceling out the physician is still pulling in some profit. capitalism can improve healthcare prices but probably wont create universal coverage.

 

[AlexMD]

Gains are not guaranteed.


So import specialists from India.

So lower subspecialty salary.

Because the market should be able to dictate salary. Currently government is inflating physician pay.

haha. MD from India? ady here- 25% of US licensed doctors are from india
Lower subsp salaries- This is exactly what USSR did. And...where is such country now, huh?One of the first thing Russia did after the death of the USSR- denationalization of health care. Russia learned its lesson, why doesn't Obama learn from history, from others' mistakes?

Profit in medicine does not mean negligence. The more successful a doctor/practice is , patience are happier. Doc who makes good money has more time for patients, has less stress level. he can plan his own day, create effective schedule, manage overhead, which is the biggest expense.
for example, Obama said about EMR, stimulus money for e-records etc.
This is BS! Monthly fee for an average remote-access EMR is just $150! if a solo practitioner can afford it w/o 'stimulus' a hospital can do it for sure.
It's sad got clueless dilettantish commander in chief. do u remember his statements about blue/red pills? Oh, baby...I wish he fail.
Churchill said about democracy- it's not perfect but so far the best we have. the sai can say about US medicine- it's far from perfect but it works.
Good care based on trained personnelltime and money), newest equipment(money). Why should it be free? Why people agree to spend more on better cars but not on better medical care? Why should othersay for my care if my risk-taking behavior led to trauma? Why smoker and nomoker should pay the same premiums???
Liberal agenda has no logic at all. that's why american people are rising.
NOBAMA!!

 

[psychforme]

actually there is one specialty that is market driven. cosmetic surgery. their salaries aren't less than 100K. one specific procedure has also been mostly if not entirely market driven, Lasik. the technology has gotten much better and the consumers price has dropped, I assume due to the combination of those two effects canceling out the physician is still pulling in some profit. capitalism can improve healthcare prices but probably wont create universal coverage.

Cosmetic surgery is far from market-driven. Only a select few surgeons are eligible to practice even if many more are competent.

 

[danzman]

Cosmetic surgery is far from market-driven. Only a select few surgeons are eligible to practice even if many more are competent.

What are you talking about? It is the MOST market-driven part of medicine. Have you ever looked in the back of local newspapers? There are hundreds of ads for cosmetic services/procedures and many practitioners. They are on the radio, on TV, and on-line. No other field of medicine uses free market approaches to lower cost and offer services better than cosmetics. I heard on the radio this afternoon a group doing breast augmentations for 3999. When was the last time you heard any other medical practice other than Lasik (also hugely market driven) advertising their prices in order to get your business? Do not confuse competition with anti-free market approaches.

 

[scube]

Cosmetic surgery is far from market-driven. Only a select few surgeons are eligible to practice even if many more are competent.

Cash/credit only, pre negotiated prices between payer(patient) and payee(doctor) NO INSURANCE(except maybe disfigurement but i wouldn't call that cosmetic). just because everyone cant do it doesn't make it not market driven.

 

[Substance]

Psychforme might have a point about physician salary being inflated if prudent and intelligent physicians were easily replaceable. But they're not.

Lower the salary, and we'll still have the same number of physicians, that's for sure. But I bet you that they won't be anywhere near as good as the ones we have now.

Face it, money is a motivator. The reason docs were paid so well in the past is because the public wanted to ensure that they got the best people taking care of them.

PCPs are paid like crap now, and lo and behold the least amount of docs are going into it, and the ones that do are not cream of the crop. If we lower specialty salaries, I bet the new crop of intelligent undergraduate students will be going into business or law.

 

[280224]

exactly what a vice tax does. the idiot who makes these decisions pays for the increase to health care costs by their vice. fewer people would do it as a bonus. why should i put a dime in the pot for people who get vice related disease. but thanks for making my point betterl

What I'm saying is that instead of raising taxes on everything the government deems "bad" we just let people do what they want with themselves and let them take care of their own healthcare costs.

 

[scube]

What I'm saying is that instead of raising taxes on everything the government deems "bad" we just let people do what they want with themselves and let them take care of their own healthcare costs.

Thats what system is in place and its an utter failure. Why. People spend 150 a month on cigarettes instead of insurance.

you can take the quotation marks off around the word bad. because those things are in all reality bad.

 

[wasvsdal]

I believe all Obama is proposing is a public health option. Anyone that doesnt have insurance will now have an option of getting insurance. Likewise, anyone who isnt happy with their plan can switch over to the public plan. This public plan doesnt have the "pre-existing condition" limitation. It will probably function similarly to Medicare.

This is better for doctors working in a hospital. Currently, they have to treat whoever comes to their doors. Naturally, people who dont have insurance are unable to pay. Now, they'll have a mode of insurance, and likewise doctors will get paid for treating patients, who normally would pay nothing.

Republicans and other disputers of this plan claim that most people who dont have insurance are a) illegal immigrants, or b) young adults, who refuse to obtain coverage because they'd rather spend that money elsewhere.

I think its important to grant these illegal immigrants a "work id". This way they can work legally, get insurance coverage like normal people, and resolve a whole bunch of other non-health care issues associated with illegal immigrants. George Bush had the right idea in mind, its unfortunate that he was too occupied with other crap.

Also, make health insurance mandatory.

In conclusion, I havent heard anything about doctors' salaries being reduced. I believe this is a rumor that has stemmed similarly to the rumor that goes something along the lines of "Obama is a Nazi".

 

[Doublecortin]

I believe all Obama is proposing is a public health option. Anyone that doesnt have insurance will now have an option of getting insurance. Likewise, anyone who isnt happy with their plan can switch over to the public plan. This public plan doesnt have the "pre-existing condition" limitation. It will probably function similarly to Medicare.

This is better for doctors working in a hospital. Currently, they have to treat whoever comes to their doors. Naturally, people who dont have insurance are unable to pay. Now, they'll have a mode of insurance, and likewise doctors will get paid for treating patients, who normally would pay nothing.

Republicans and other disputers of this plan claim that most people who dont have insurance are a) illegal immigrants, or b) young adults, who refuse to obtain coverage because they'd rather spend that money elsewhere.

I think its important to grant these illegal immigrants a "work id". This way they can work legally, get insurance coverage like normal people, and resolve a whole bunch of other non-health care issues associated with illegal immigrants. George Bush had the right idea in mind, its unfortunate that he was too occupied with other crap.

Also, make health insurance mandatory.

In conclusion, I havent heard anything about doctors' salaries being reduced. I believe this is a rumor that has stemmed similarly to the rumor that goes something along the lines of "Obama is a Nazi".

really? So that 20 million more will crawl over the border to get the free healthcare, in addition to many other free goodies they get in the US, like public schools and welfare?

I guess I didn't realize that the goal of healthcare reform was to provide free healthcare to anyone who crosses the US border

 

[AlexMD]

Look at Great Britain- docs' salaries went down, they got shortage of doctors, had to import a lot from Pakistan..Then- group of muslim doctors blow up buses in London...Do you want the same over here?

 

[womp]

I think its important to grant these illegal immigrants a "work id". This way they can work legally, get insurance coverage like normal people, and resolve a whole bunch of other non-health care issues associated with illegal immigrants. George Bush had the right idea in mind, its unfortunate that he was too occupied with other crap.

Can I just walk into Mexico or any other country and get a work ID, have an anchor baby, get free health care, get a driver's license without title and insurance, get free groceries for the whole family (WIC), have my kids (legal or not) attend free public schools, pay no taxes, and apply for a no-down jumbo mortgage?

Illegal immigration is putting our public schools and hospitals to a breaking point.

 

[psychforme]

Cash/credit only, pre negotiated prices between payer(patient) and payee(doctor) NO INSURANCE(except maybe disfigurement but i wouldn't call that cosmetic). just because everyone cant do it doesn't make it not market driven.

It is market driven - but supply is crippled - hence the market is not free.

 

[wasvsdal]

Yeah so a work id would recognize them without penalizing them. This way they have to pay taxes, etc. This health plan is for taxpayers only..i mean thats a given. Obama would be assasinated if it was any other way.

 

[wasvsdal]

Preventing illegal immigration is a seperate issue, and for simplicity sake, should not be discussed with health care reform. I think we would all agree its already getting too complicated.

But you do have to account for those who are already in the States.

 

[surag]

I'm not sure his previous identity name but I came across it recently in the socio political forum.

This guy's a loser, who thinks people are part of some sort of conspiracy known as the 'CADRE"

Under his previous alias he would go around screaming 'down with the cadre' etc. ad naseum.

This guy has only baseless commentary and is a pure socialist. Not that I have anything against peoples personal opinions but he dilutes and destroys normal debate by spewing out nonsense and feeding off other people's replies.

even if they know he's a troll...just dont respond. the best thing is to BLOCK HIS USER IDENTITY. and then CLICK ON THE COMPLAINT ICON.

 

[280224]

Thats what system is in place and its an utter failure. Why. People spend 150 a month on cigarettes instead of insurance.

you can take the quotation marks off around the word bad. because those things are in all reality bad.

I'm a healthy person, no medical complications, thin, in shape but I drink sodas occasionally. I also eat at fast food restaurants once in a while (mmm in n out). None of these things are bad for me as long as I don't over indulge myself. Why should I be taxed for wanting to eat some chips with my lunch? If some guy wants to gorge on empty calories and balloon to 300 lbs that's his problem and no one else's.

You're using the wrong example to prove your point if you're going to bring up cigarettes, one of the most heavily taxed items on the market. And you're delusional if you think the government is taxing cigarettes because they want you to be healthy, they're taxing you because they see it as an easy source of income.

 

[danzman]

It is market driven - but supply is crippled - hence the market is not free.

(hits face with hand)

What are you talking about? Supply is NOT crippled. There are tons of plastics guys. I promise, if you are in good health and have a pocket full of cash you can go down TODAY and get any number of things cut on. You are looking at how hard it is to be trained as a plastic surgeon. The only real hurdle to doing breast implants all day is getting the training, in order to train, you must be a physician, get a spot, etc'. Is that what you mean, that it is not a free market because not everyone can be plastic surgeon? Or are you saying that everyone should be able to get all the plastic surgery that they want because there are so many practitioners? That has nothing to do with free markets. In fact, I would argue that it goes the other way. Plastics make huge cash, thus it is very popular/competitive, thus only certain people are able to do PS. This is the very concept of supply and demand! Sure there are limited spots, because if there were too many PS's (which there are) then their individual value would be less.

WTF are you saying?

 

[womp]

Yeah so a work id would recognize them without penalizing them. This way they have to pay taxes, etc. This health plan is for taxpayers only..i mean thats a given.

You don't pay much taxes if you gross under $40,000 and have 2+ children (the vast majority of illegal immigrant families fit these two conditions). Every April 15th is probably a big paycheck day. So where would the revenue to pay for health care and public schools come from?

In the end, the Democrat platform and health care reform sound a lot like: From each according to his ability, to each according to his need.