PhD to MD - enough clinical hours to apply?

[GatsbysBatman]

Graduated with Neuroscience (human/cognitive) PhD and decided MD would be more fulfilling.
I am wondering if my clinical experience will be enough (outlined below) or if I should wait another cycle?

• 2013-2015:
  • clinical research coordinator: direct dementia patient interaction in hospital (administered battery of cognitive tests, walked them around hospital)
• 2016-2017:
  • lab manager, participant interaction but not clinical
• 2017-2022 PhD:
  • no clinical experience (didn't decide MD until final year and didn't know I needed recent clinical experience/covid restrictions were still in effect)
  • involved in educational outreach with community all 5 years in leadership position
• 2022-present:
  • Working as a clinical project manager (remote), shadowed 2 docs (very difficult to find more post-covid)
  • hospice volunteer since January, in a unique situation where the patient lives 1 mile from me so I can visit 3-4x a week and may reach 100 hours by June.
  • "unofficial" post-doc with a prof at top university of choice
  • Aiming for April/May MCAT

Any other advice/tips welcome.

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[chilly_md]

To me, I see 100 hours of in-person patient interaction in the last 6+ years. It would be hard to explain why you want to pursue medicine after receiving a PhD.

 

[GatsbysBatman]

To me, I see 100 hours of in-person patient interaction in the last 6+ years. It would be hard to explain why you want to pursue medicine after receiving a PhD.

@chilly_md thanks for the cortisol spike 😭 How many hours do you think would be convincing? Does my time as a CRC really count for nothing?

My time as a clinical coordinator almost lead me to the path of MD but I ultimately thought a PhD would be best as I was writing my first manuscript. The direct engagement in education outreach had me rethink my career but I did not want to only teach (and spent a lot of time researching a medical career) - I feel that combining bench with clinic would be more meaningful given my interest in neuroscience. In my current position I speak with MD's on a daily basis and working with hospice has only further solidified my choice so I was hope I can convey that in the personal statement/activities section.

 

[chilly_md]

@chilly_md thanks for the cortisol spike 😭 How many hours do you think would be convincing? Does my time as a CRC really count for nothing?

My time as a clinical coordinator almost lead me to the path of MD but I ultimately thought a PhD would be best as I was writing my first manuscript. The direct engagement in education outreach had me rethink my career but I did not want to only teach (and spent a lot of time researching a medical career) - I feel that combining bench with clinic would be more meaningful given my interest in neuroscience. In my current position I speak with MD's on a daily basis and working with hospice has only further solidified my choice so I was hope I can convey that in the personal statement/activities section.

It doesn’t come across strongly when it was several years ago and you went on a different path. Remote work is not reflective of a real clinical environment.

Try to get another 100 hour with hospice. You may need something in a more traditional hospital or clinic setting as well if this is a 1:1 activity and not in a hospice facility.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

I agree i don't know how you concluded that you would find a more fulfilling career in Medicine since I don't see that you have fully intersex yourself in working with patients that doesn't come from since stress of expertise. A relationship with subjects is different than a relationship with patients.

 

[GatsbysBatman]

I agree i don't know how you concluded that you would find a more fulfilling career in Medicine since I don't see that you have fully intersex yourself in working with patients that doesn't come from since stress of expertise. A relationship with subjects is different than a relationship with patients.

I'm a little confused as to what you would consider good experience to make the decision to apply to MD?

It seems you're both discounting 2 years of 1000+ hours of clinical experience because its "old" experience, but that was still two years of my life post-undergrad and made an impact on who I am and why I chose to pursue a career in Neuroscience. While I didn't go the MD route originally, to me, the transition to neurology (or something else) would be vertical not lateral (a continuation of my career as opposed to complete life changing career).

To play devil's advocate, how are undergrads who apply with 100-200 clinical hours (often as a scribe or volunteer in admin setting which is often debated whether clinical), let alone meaningful and accurate insight into what being a physician entails / life experiences that come with age able to make the conclusion that MD is right for them?

I understand and agree that educational outreach/clinical remote position is not direct hospital environment, but I think these opportunities have allowed me to make the most accurate decision based on the clinical limitations I face short of becoming a nursing assistant (how to impact someones life through connection + how to be a physician scientist and what the entails).

chilly_md suggested ~200 hours total would be good and just to clarify, I am working in a large hospice facility and I can get 100 by June as is and project out to ~300 by matriculation (or I can also start going every day for ~2 hours and hit 200 hours by June). If you were to say I needed 500+ hours thats one thing, but I am not sure why you would see 200 as good and 100 as unsure that I know what I am getting myself into, with all my other experience.

I'm not trying to argue, just understand the logic. I try to convey my logic/path in my personal statement/activities section.

 

[chilly_md]

I'm a little confused as to what you would consider good experience to make the decision to apply to MD?

It seems you're both discounting 2 years of 1000+ hours of clinical experience because its "old" experience, but that was still two years of my life post-undergrad and made an impact on who I am and why I chose to pursue a career in Neuroscience. While I didn't go the MD route originally, to me, the transition to neurology (or something else) would be vertical not lateral (a continuation of my career as opposed to complete life changing career).

To play devil's advocate, how are undergrads who apply with 100-200 clinical hours (often as a scribe or volunteer in admin setting which is often debated whether clinical), let alone meaningful and accurate insight into what being a physician entails / life experiences that come with age able to make the conclusion that MD is right for them?

I understand and agree that educational outreach/clinical remote position is not direct hospital environment, but I think these opportunities have allowed me to make the most accurate decision based on the clinical limitations I face short of becoming a nursing assistant (how to impact someones life through connection + how to be a physician scientist and what the entails).

chilly_md suggested ~200 hours total would be good and just to clarify, I am working in a large hospice facility and I can get 100 by June as is and project out to ~300 by matriculation (or I can also start going every day for ~2 hours and hit 200 hours by June). If you were to say I needed 500+ hours thats one thing, but I am not sure why you would see 200 as good and 100 as unsure that I know what I am getting myself into, with all my other experience.

I'm not trying to argue, just understand the logic. I try to convey my logic/path in my personal statement/activities section.

Projected hours don't count. 200 is good, but we try to stress that is a minimum, especially when we don't know your GPA and you haven't taken the MCAT. Undergrads with 100-150 hours often struggle and end up as reapplicants. Scribing is understood to be a good clinical experience by the majority of schools/readers.

You should have significant recent experience to show you understand what you are getting yourself into, particularly since you haven't been around sick people for 7+ years. You don't know if you will end up going into neurology and the clinical side is very different from the neuroscience PhD side. You may believe a remote clinical position was helpful, but it does not come across that when when somebody is reading your file. The educational outreach certainly is not related.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

I'm a little confused as to what you would consider good experience to make the decision to apply to MD?

It seems you're both discounting 2 years of 1000+ hours of clinical experience because its "old" experience, but that was still two years of my life post-undergrad and made an impact on who I am and why I chose to pursue a career in Neuroscience. While I didn't go the MD route originally, to me, the transition to neurology (or something else) would be vertical not lateral (a continuation of my career as opposed to complete life changing career). ...

Now that you mention it, how old are your prerequisites? Just making sure you check this with the schools on your wishlist.

It's not that I totally discount that experience but that was done before your graduate work. "What have you done lately" is a reasonable question.

To play devil's advocate, how are undergrads who apply with 100-200 clinical hours (often as a scribe or volunteer in admin setting which is often debated whether clinical), let alone meaningful and accurate insight into what being a physician entails / life experiences that come with age able to make the conclusion that MD is right for them?

Minimum expectation. You have had some experience in your past so I agree that just getting 200 hours is likely enough to refamiliarize yourself, especially with new procedures from the pandemic, depending on what your past experience was. To your point, that's why 200 hours is barely enough and many schools would like seeing more hours and more quality of patient interaction.

Understand that just because you have a PhD, you won't have an easier time. Many faculty have enough experience where the PhD student has a harder time adjusting to medical school; there may be more resistance to your candidacy unless you satisfy these concerns.

 

[GatsbysBatman]

Yeah, that makes sense. I didn't assume the PhD will make things easier, but more reassure some doubts in some regards.

I think only Columbia has a hard requirement from my list in regards to time taken for courses, but other schools with "recommended" pre-reqs that I emailed responded "case-by-case" review. I was a psych undergrad, so most of my chem/bio/physics pre-reqs are within the last two years.

 

[pierty]

Much of this depends on how you frame your intentions for your career. If your admissions officer reads your application thinking that you disliked research/academia and want to try on a new outfit, they will evaluate you similarly to other pre-meds and look for the dedication and (recent) exploration of the career. If you intend to lead a translational career, there's a frame-shift to the narrative. Depending on the reader/institution, they might view you favorably. But this should be something you truly intend to do - not something to just write on an application (which can usually be parceled out in the interview).

You should pursue the path if you're passionate about it. The checkboxes are pretty well known, and it seems like you want to know if there's wiggle room with them, and it always depends on the full context of your application which you do not have yet. Regardless, I think the focus is too-often "how i can get in" rather than "why do I want to?" But if you truly know your reasons - and are an effective communicator - it will show.

 

[GatsbysBatman]

@pierty I agree and see how my post can reflect the "have I checked all the boxes?" mindset. I really didn't intend that. I have no intention of stopping research or to ignore my PhD moving forward. I forwent a traditional postdoc to work as a clinical project manger to better understand how I can combine the two degrees moving forward. Whether or not I become a physician scientist with a few days of clinic each week or neurologist with a few days of research, is still not certain. I am sure, however, that I will not be abandoning research and that a purely academic life is not for me.

I graduated over a year ago and have put several years of thought into applying to medical school - if anything, I can easily argue I have tried many different options to avoid this path given the time, cost, and my potential age after residency. All roads lead to medical school if I want to have the most fulfilling career, personally. Otherwise, I can get by with teaching and some research, but I will feel like something is missing.

With my 2 years in a clinical role before the PhD, I originally thought I was okay with my experiences for the application, and as mentioned in previous comments, as I talked with more people I realized I need something recent, but just how much was uncertain to me - in the sense that at some point, I can confidently apply. I was trying to phrase this post to determine if I am ready to apply or should wait another application cycle.