PhD Considering Med School & Military as Avenue into NASA/Space Biomedical Res

[JayBay]

Hello Friends, I am new to this forum and am hopeful that you guys can give me some good advice. Also, if there are existing threads I've missed that address these topics, I'd appreciate knowing about them. Ok, here goes:

I am currently a PhD student studying Immunology. I've always wanted to study the effects of prolonged flight/space flight on the human body in various aspects (including immune responses, etc). As a way to reach this goal, I'm considering med school after I defend my thesis (hopefully spring 2014 and start med school fall 2014). In order to pay for med school and get experience with the physiological effects of flight, I think spending a few years as a flight surgeon in the Navy or AF would go a long way to prepare me to apply for astronaut training or simply work in aerospace medicine or aerospace biomedical science (if that's really a field).

My question is: does this sound nuts to you guys? Should I simply look for research jobs with NASA or the Navy or AF directly after finishing my PhD? From what I've read, I think I'd enjoy the military life for a few years and would be proud to serve my adopted country (I'm a naturalized citizen originally from an East African country).

The reason I want to pursue the MD is to get a more well-rounded understanding of human physiology and disease and have another skill set to offer the military and NASA but I could potentially be happy if similar opportunities existed for those with just PhDs in life sciences.

Any knowledge you have of opportunities for PhDs in the Navy, AF, or NASA would be awesome as well as honest feedback about doing the MD (probably would do an IM residency) and then going for Flight Surgeon training in the military.

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[sonofva]

I know that the army has an aerospace medicine residency in Pensacola, FL. it almost never goes filled. so if your positive that flight medicine is your thing, than this might be an option. i'm sure the army would love to find someone interested in their program.


" Army Aerospace Medicine Specialists execute the Army's aviation medicine programs & care for Warfighters in the most clinically challenging and operationally austere environments in the world. We encourage all Active Duty Army MC applicants with operational experience to apply. MS-4 medical students & interns with a serious interest in Aerospace Medicine & operational assignments are highly encouraged to apply. Internship (FYGME) positions are available. Army Aerospace Medicine training takes place in Pensacola, FL. Residents are assigned to the USA School of Aviation Medicine, Ft. Rucker, AL, with 3 years of duty at the Naval Aerospace Medical Institute, Pensacola, FL. Army Aerospace Medicine training consists of two residency programs & a MPH degree program. Training includes the NOMI's Aerospace Medicine Program, the USA School of Aviation Medicine's Occupational Medicine Program, and the UWF's MPH program. Residents simultaneously complete their MPH degree within PGY2 & PGY3 residency years.Prior to applying, applicants must obtain & maintain a qualified Class 2F Flying Duty Medical Exam (FDME). Waivers for Class 2 FDMEs are available, contact your local flight surgeon's office. If no local flight surgeon is available contact COLCOL Sauer below. To receive PCS orders and matriculate into training, applicants must be accepted to the MPH Program, School of Allied Health and Life Sciences, UWF(http://uwf.edu/sahls/masters-ph/). Officers should apply to the UWF MPH as soon notified of acceptance to Aerospace Medicine training. Timing and diligence with the MPH application process is critical to successful matriculation. Once accepted, Letters of Recommendation in support of the MPH application are available from the program directors listed below.
J. Timothy Lavan Samual W. Sauer
CAPT, MC (NFS) COL, MC, MFS
PD,Aerospace Medicine PD,Occupational Medicine
[email protected]
850-452-8125 850-452-4740"

 

[Cooperd0g]

All three branches have aerospace medicine as a residency option. All three also have flight surgery courses as well so you do not have to do a residency in aerospace medicine if you don't want to. Another thing is the aerospace physiology program, but I don't think your degree qualifies.

http://www.med.navy.mil/sites/nmotc/nami/academics/Pages/AerospacePhysiologist.aspx

 

[cautionmaster]

Hello Friends, I am new to this forum and am hopeful that you guys can give me some good advice. Also, if there are existing threads I've missed that address these topics, I'd appreciate knowing about them. Ok, here goes:

I am currently a PhD student studying Immunology. I've always wanted to study the effects of prolonged flight/space flight on the human body in various aspects (including immune responses, etc). As a way to reach this goal, I'm considering med school after I defend my thesis (hopefully spring 2014 and start med school fall 2014). In order to pay for med school and get experience with the physiological effects of flight, I think spending a few years as a flight surgeon in the Navy or AF would go a long way to prepare me to apply for astronaut training or simply work in aerospace medicine or aerospace biomedical science (if that's really a field).

My question is: does this sound nuts to you guys? Should I simply look for research jobs with NASA or the Navy or AF directly after finishing my PhD? From what I've read, I think I'd enjoy the military life for a few years and would be proud to serve my adopted country (I'm a naturalized citizen originally from an East African country).

The reason I want to pursue the MD is to get a more well-rounded understanding of human physiology and disease and have another skill set to offer the military and NASA but I could potentially be happy if similar opportunities existed for those with just PhDs in life sciences.

Any knowledge you have of opportunities for PhDs in the Navy, AF, or NASA would be awesome as well as honest feedback about doing the MD (probably would do an IM residency) and then going for Flight Surgeon training in the military.

USAF School of Aerospace Medicine (To include the Residency in Aerospace Medicine)
http://www.wpafb.af.mil/afrl/711hpw/usafsam.asp

The civilian Wright State version:
http://www.med.wright.edu/asm/res

Likewise for UTMB:
http://pmch.utmb.edu/residency/aerospace/aerospaceoverview_copy1.aspx

Or just do a post doc with NASA:
http://nasa.orau.org/postdoc/

 

[cautionmaster]

Another thing is the aerospace physiology program, but I don't think your degree qualifies.

http://www.med.navy.mil/sites/nmotc/nami/academics/Pages/AerospacePhysiologist.aspx

Actually you are probably overqualified for that.

 

[marinehrnt]

What exactly does a residency in Aerospace Medicine do for you? I understand the application in the military but is there anything you could do with it in the civilian world? Or is this residency mainly for those that plan on making a career out of the military?

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[Cooperd0g]

Actually you are probably overqualified for that.

Based on the prerequisites of a masters or PhD in physiology or related field I wouldn't say he is overqualified. One of my old staff physiologists was a PhD, but I forget his specific discipline. It does also say "other biological sciences" so immunology probably would fit.

 

[Cooperd0g]

What exactly does a residency in Aerospace Medicine do for you? I understand the application in the military but is there anything you could do with it in the civilian world? Or is this residency mainly for those that plan on making a career out of the military?

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Aerospace med doesn't buy you a whole lot outside the military. You could work for the FAA, but they generally don't require you to have done aerospace med. There are DOD physician contractor gigs as well at some of the larger aviation training bases and they want someone who was aerospace med or a flight surgeon, but if you were a flight surgeon they will take several different residency backgrounds. Perhaps the new civilian space companies might want an aerospace med guy on staff, but they will probably be hyper selective and only take former NASA docs.

I can't speak for the other services, but in the Navy it is a combo Aerospace and Occupational med residency (I am pretty sure the Army is also since it is done with the Navy at Pensacola). I have heard that this was done because the ACGME wasn't going to accredit any programs shorter than 2 years and aerospace med alone was only a 2 year program. The combined program is now 4 years. I have also heard this was done to help build interest as maybe occ med will translate better out in the civilian world. I have a former flight doc friend who decided to do it once they made it a combined program.

However, neither aerospace nor occupational works for me. It works for me for my plans while in the military, but I suspect that even when I retire from the Navy I will want to work part time some and family med or emergency med will fit better with my plan.

 

[DeadCactus]

Am I the only one who thinks medical school and residency would be a long and only tangentially related detour? If you want to do research, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me to take a 7 year hiatus from the lab only to make it so the military views your time as better spent filling cupping pilots' balls than running a lab.

It's one thing if you want to be a physician and have flight physiology be your niche. But if your main drive is to do research and you're doing medicine only for some perceived benefit in those efforts, I think you'll be disappointed. You could use those same 7+ years to do a lot to improve your knowledge of physiology, start your research career, and get an in with NASA...

 

[sonofva]

Am I the only one who thinks medical school and residency would be a long and only tangentially related detour? If you want to do research, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me to take a 7 year hiatus from the lab only to make it so the military views your time as better spent filling cupping pilots' balls than running a lab.

It's one thing if you want to be a physician and have flight physiology be your niche. But if your main drive is to do research and you're doing medicine only for some perceived benefit in those efforts, I think you'll be disappointed. You could use those same 7+ years to do a lot to improve your knowledge of physiology, start your research career, and get an in with NASA...

you can't just say "cupping pilot's balls."

 

[DrMetal]

Am I the only one who thinks medical school and residency would be a long and only tangentially related detour? If you want to do research, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me to take a 7 year hiatus from the lab only to make it so the military views your time as better spent filling cupping pilots' balls than running a lab.

It's one thing if you want to be a physician and have flight physiology be your niche. But if your main drive is to do research and you're doing medicine only for some perceived benefit in those efforts, I think you'll be disappointed. You could use those same 7+ years to do a lot to improve your knowledge of physiology, start your research career, and get an in with NASA...

You hit the nail right on the head. Im a soon to be MDPhD, my goals in life are to be a clinician first with a some research here and there. If you have the opposite in mind (wanting to be primarily a researcher), you really need not go to medical school. You're better off doing a postdoc in aerospace physio, concentrating on your basic science training, and collaborating with clinicians.

 

[JayBay]

First of all, thanks to everyone for your responses and information/links, I really appreciate it.

To answer some of your questions about why do med school or why focus on aerospace medicine...well, in all honesty, I want to follow my childhood dream to be an astronaut. And as a former mentor used to say "Justify your existence". In light of that, I'm under the impression that getting an MD and then experience as a flight surgeon followed by training in aerospace medicine would give me the best shot to provide clinical services to NASA pilots and astronauts while my PhD training will allow me opportunities to conduct research in various aspects of human biology in prolonged spaceflight and microgravity environments. Thus justifying my existence to NASA as a potential astronaut in the future.

Does this seem like a justifiable reason to pursue the MD? The thought being in the clinic and undertaking a new academic challenge does excite me and if I can get one of those HSPS deals, then money is no issue. I'd appreciate any other thoughts you guys have. I don't want to believe that growing up means giving up on our deepest dreams born out of a child's awe and imagination. But a dose of reality is needed from time to time.

And as I write this, I'm sitting in lab at 2am on a Friday morning working on an experiment and enjoying a fine Japanese brew

 

[Perrotfish]

First of all, thanks to everyone for your responses and information/links, I really appreciate it.

To answer some of your questions about why do med school or why focus on aerospace medicine...well, in all honesty, I want to follow my childhood dream to be an astronaut. And as a former mentor used to say "Justify your existence". In light of that, I'm under the impression that getting an MD and then experience as a flight surgeon followed by training in aerospace medicine would give me the best shot to provide clinical services to NASA pilots and astronauts while my PhD training will allow me opportunities to conduct research in various aspects of human biology in prolonged spaceflight and microgravity environments. Thus justifying my existence to NASA as a potential astronaut in the future.

Does this seem like a justifiable reason to pursue the MD? The thought being in the clinic and undertaking a new academic challenge does excite me and if I can get one of those HSPS deals, then money is no issue. I'd appreciate any other thoughts you guys have. I don't want to believe that growing up means giving up on our deepest dreams born out of a child's awe and imagination. But a dose of reality is needed from time to time.

And as I write this, I'm sitting in lab at 2am on a Friday morning working on an experiment and enjoying a fine Japanese brew

1) I think this MIGHT be a good reason to pursue an MD. I spoke to a few former astronauts when I was going into medical school (It was kind of a dream of mine as well), and it does seem like, at this moment, NASA semes the be taking more or less a 1:1:1 ratio of physicians, pilots, and engineers for the space program. Not sure how often they recruit regular doctoral students.

2) I'm not sure that this is a good reason to pursue a military scholarship. NASA recruits civilians as well as military personel. While the military might provide an attractive resume bullet for a NASA app, they might also force you into a residency that doesn't match your interests, or prevent you from applying to NASA because they would prefer to utilize you as a physician. I'm not saying that the military would be the wrong choice (I don't know how strongly NASA wants military experience) just that you should think it through.

3) I'm not sure this is a good reason to puruse medical school either: This is a LONG, EXPENSIVE, UNPLEASANT education. You're 7 years from graduating from residency the day you step in the door, and then you need to pay back your debt. NASA is kind of a long shot. Would you be happy if regular old medicine ended up being your career? If not, medical school might the wrong choice.

Have you ever considered contacting NASA and asking for mentorship? While I imagine they would normally politely deflect such queries, someone with a doctorate might actually get past the receptionist. I feel like theres a limit to how much anyone outside the space program is able to advise you on this.

 

[JayBay]

1) I think this MIGHT be a good reason to pursue an MD. I spoke to a few former astronauts when I was going into medical school (It was kind of a dream of mine as well), and it does seem like, at this moment, NASA semes the be taking more or less a 1:1:1 ratio of physicians, pilots, and engineers for the space program. Not sure how often they recruit regular doctoral students.

2) I'm not sure that this is a good reason to pursue a military scholarship. NASA recruits civilians as well as military personel. While the military might provide an attractive resume bullet for a NASA app, they might also force you into a residency that doesn't match your interests, or prevent you from applying to NASA because they would prefer to utilize you as a physician. I'm not saying that the military would be the wrong choice (I don't know how strongly NASA wants military experience) just that you should think it through.

3) I'm not sure this is a good reason to puruse medical school either: This is a LONG, EXPENSIVE, UNPLEASANT education. You're 7 years from graduating from residency the day you step in the door, and then you need to pay back your debt. NASA is kind of a long shot. Would you be happy if regular old medicine ended up being your career? If not, medical school might the wrong choice.

Have you ever considered contacting NASA and asking for mentorship? While I imagine they would normally politely deflect such queries, someone with a doctorate might actually get past the receptionist. I feel like theres a limit to how much anyone outside the space program is able to advise you on this.

Hi Perrotfish, thanks for your thoughts. As for the points you made,

1) This is my impression as well. I certainly am not (and don't plan to be) a pilot or engineer so I feel like just having a PhD in a life science MAY not be enough. However, this is not the sole reason to pursue the MD. I think I would genuinely enjoy being in the clinic and am volunteering now to see if my perceptions match reality. But at this point, I'm not dreading med school/residency/working with patients.

2) Obviously the best part of the military scholarship is the full ride. After being in a fully-funded PhD program with a stipend, I cannot imagine paying for school myself! I was thinking that if I did secure the HSPS, I could only take 2 or 3 years of it and owe that many years back instead of the full 4 and just pay/take loans for the other 1 or 2 years. One question I haven't been able to find an answer to is if doing a military residency counts towards the years owed?? If so, I could kill 2 birds with 1 stone, so to speak.
The other part of the Navy or AF that seems attractive is the chance to work as a flight surgeon. It seems like the kind of experience that would be very relevant to spaceflight and being a NASA doc. Is there some civilian equivalent that would allow me to get that kind of flight and medical experience without the military?

3) If NASA didn't work out (and I know the odds are slim), I think I could be happy as a clinician or more likely working in clinical research setting so I could use both degrees. I don't foresee myself completing leaving medicine if I do through with it and get the degree/experience.

The other aspect of all this that makes it even more attractive are the med schools that have a 3 year accelerated MD program for those who plan to go into primary care. So far, I've found NYU, Texas Tech, and Mercer offer these programs. Again, this would save me time and money both in terms of time in school and time owed to the military once I finished. So 3 year med school, 3 year residency, and 3 years to the Navy or AF doesn't sound all that bad to me (again, if a military residency could count as paying back the time I owe, it could be just 6 years so I really need to find an answer to this question.)

As for contacting NASA to ask about this, I was also thinking I would get some generic answer i.e. "There is no ideal candidate and we review applications from all qualified applicants." Sorta like what you hear from grad and professional schools, but maybe worth a shot.

Other thoughts??

 

[DeadCactus]

I would say the best advise is to throw everything else out the window and look at clinical medicine as it's own entity. I think the vast majority of medical student enter the profession with aspirations to do exciting things like being a military trauma surgeon, astronaut, NIH researcher, or international volunteer. At the end of the day though, most of us finish school in our 30's and end up just taking a quiet community job where we can make decent money and see our families. Don't get me wrong, I'm entering residency and I still have those same sorts of aspirations. But I know medicine was the right choice for me because if I find myself in a typical community job in 5 years, I'll still be content with my career.

Figure out if you would content with a basic clinical job in the community. Then slowly start layering on an extra opportunities from most probable (academic job -> research heavy career -> research heavy career and major institution -> NASA) to stretches and see if it generates enough excitement to warrant 7+ years of education.

Also, residency time does not count as payback. You will do medical school, residency, and then several years of payback during which time you are unlikely to have access to the time or resources to conduct research.

I believe the 3 year programs all include doing residency at the same institution. I'm not sure how the military would handle it from an HPSP perspective though I imagine they would figure something out...

you can't just say "cupping pilot's balls."

I guess I should of included the bend and peak?

 

[StevenRF]

If you're specifically interested in being an astronaut, just apply. The calls go out on USA jobs every few years, the last one just recently for 2013. Check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_astronauts_by_year_of_selection. You'll notice from a pool of 3500, they took 20. From a lecture we had by a flight surgeon on astronaut selection, about 1/3 to 1/2 of those are real applicants. The vast majority of those are capable of being an astronaut from an intellectual standpoint. The issue is medical disqualification. You have no idea how unbelievably healthy these people are. Most of those "qualified" applicants are screened away based on medical issues, from something as obvious as heart disease to simple things like gallstones or headaches/migraines based on medical history. If you make it past that you get pretty much every test or imaging modality you can think of to widdle it down to about 100 applicants. Look at the backgrounds of the astronauts. Most of them have backgrounds comparable to any other mid career professional scientist/doctor, except they got lucky with perfect health.

Also, the old days of the two week shuttle mission are gone. Its a 6 mo stint now, and moving on to a year in the up coming missions. You'll get to personally experience impaired immune function, as well bone loss, deconditioning, radiation, random cancers, intracranial hypertension.... The space station is nearing the end of its life. NASA's budget is in the crapper, and their nearest plans for a rocket are launching part of their upper stage off of an old civilian titan in 2018... Also, NASA's JSC workforce (where the life sciences are done) at its peak was something like 15k and is down to a half of that. Something like half the astronaut core quit with the shuttle. That said people are still lining up at the door, and so would I.

If you want to get into aerospace medicine, they also have a civilian residency at UTMB, as well as a short course and a clerkship to get more exposure at NASA. In fact four separate docs from that program became astronauts (with two of them dying during missions...) That said, its very difficult to wear that many hats as you hope for. The NASA docs are all primarily operational, most ex military, spending the majority of their time taking care of astronauts etc. There are plenty of PhD's doing research, and that's what they stick to. It's also possible to rotate through mission control as an air force doc, but by the time you finish training to function as a primary flight doc, you're two years are up. BTW, check out the aerospace medical association.

For what it's worth, I'm going the military route with hopes to do a flight med residency. Currently an IM resident. Same motivations... experience, military service, loan repayment. I'm more into aerospace engineering, so Ill wait for an exit opportunity to a civilian space company, JPL, or the like.

 

[Hook]

Here's the brief I've been given by the astronaut selection folks: their view is that the top 500-1000 candidates have the educational background for the astronaut corps. They're really looking for the few that they can handle being in a Winnebago with for 6 months or more. The NASA docs told me that they'll medically DQ about 30% of the final pool of interviewees. Some of the DQs come from life-threatening issues like tumors or aneurisms. Others are nit-noid things like anthro measurements outside of requirements or high blood pressure. For the 2013 astronaut cycle, they had about 6,000 applicants for what will be 9-15 positions. Bottom line: choose your career path that you'll be happy with if you don't get picked up. A recent friend of mine is a bio-researcher at JSC: PM me if you want her details...she's been able to have a full career to include a PhD while working at NASA and was in the most recent rounds of interviews.

 

[NeuroJ]

I did the NSBRI summer internship last year, and it was an amazing experience. We got several talks from current and former astronauts and flight surgeons.

As cautionmaster pointed out, there's a variety of ways to get into flight surgery on the military and civilian sides. While having a PhD puts you into realistic running for the corp (masters-level astronauts tend to have education or engineering backgrounds), the MDs at Johnson Space Center have very, very, very varied and interesting backgrounds.

Yes, some of them have served the country very well, like Dr. Jon Clark (Red Bull Stratos medical director and the lead investigative flight surgeon who was in charge in putting together the final report for the Columbia disaster----doubly tragic, b/c his wife, Laurel, a former Navy flight surgeon, was lost in the break up). But there are some doctors there who actually opine that the civilian route is the best way to go. Why? For all the reasons mentioned in every other topic on the milmed forum.

I actually have the slides from the talk given by the JSC Astronaut selection committee head. Up until 2011, there have been 201 selected corp members (of 330 combined mil and civ selected). Just 66 of these 201 selected with a military background are NON-pilots. So if you have a military background, NASA is more likely to be interested in your piloting skills.

Interestingly, the MOST important quality sought after during the selection process is NICENESS, a.k.a, the big question is, "is this candidate a nice enough person who will get along with an international crew in the void of space for months at a time?"