Pediatric Cardiology

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Many don't believe me, but I think selecting your residency program based only on your interest in a specific fellowship (whatever that fellowship is) is a mistake. Aside from the fact that you might get interested in other things, you need to be dedicated to learning general pediatrics in a place where you'll be happy (the best subspecialists learn the most about general peds). Cardiology is admittedly one of the more competitive fellowships but just about any program will have connections and provide you with the opportunities to get involved with cardiology both clinically and research-wise. I'd certainly pick a program that does a lot of hearts, though it's becoming more commonplace to push residents out of caring for cardiac patients. Sometimes a smaller program without fellows will give you the chance to really get to know and work closely with specific attendings who work or do research. Larger programs with active fellowships will also have active research opportunities of course, but it may be more difficult to get your foot in the door, so be sure to ask during interviews. As far as which is 'better' suited, all of the programs you mention have excellent reputations and connections. Going to any one of them would open doors, but not guarantee you anything either. It's hard to say what each fellowship director will be looking for in a candidate, and it's not just where you did your residency. And remember that cardiology is a match full of very smart, competitive people, so even the best of them only has so much flexibility in choosing a fellowship program.

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hi there, i'm a 2nd year resident who matched in peds cardiology last week. i had applied to boston, chop, ucsf, texas children's, and columbia. i received interviews at all of them but turned down baylor (they do a 2-day interview and i just couldn't find time in my busy junior year call schedule to go down there). chop was my favorite program, but i loved columbia as well. all of the programs offered great training opportunities, i felt, especially for those planning on academic careers. i chose new york for relationship and family reasons, and i was thrilled to match there last week. if anyone has any questions about any of these programs, please feel free to email me.
arydolphin, sorry to hear about your match day. the number of applications really shot up this year... last year only about 140 applied. it was definitely a tough year. i wish you the best of luck for next year.

am interested in pursuing peds cardiology. It will be great if you can share ur experience which will be od great help.
Thanks!
 
Hey folks, as internship interviews are happening, do you have any recommendations for what to look for in terms of eventually matching into cards fellowship?

More specifically, I have some geographic preferences, and the cardiology programs here are pretty strong, but would it be worth turning down the huge heart centers like Boston or Baylor on account of a personal preference to stay local? Does it not really matter since it's just gen peds residency anyway?

Thanks everybody!
 
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So I just have a question regarding a peds cardio. I am a first year med student at UNECOM and am interested in peds cardiology. I have been reading different types of information and I was hoping someone can clarify. From my understanding a peds residency takes 3 years and cardio fellowship also takes 3 years. Are you practicing as a pediatrician while you are on a cardio fellowship ? Is it basically a continuation of residency for 3 more years then with "residential" pay?
 
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So basically when you finish your pediatric residency you have 3 choices:
1- Find a job and start practicing as a pediatrician, this can be either in an office settings, but I have seen general pediatrician at emergency departments practicing like an attending.
2- Practicing as a hospitalist, which basically means you are taking care of inpatient kids from a general pediatric perspective.
3- Sub specialize, which means more 2-4 years of training depends on the specialty. You will be called a fellow,it is a continuation of the residency which means you will be on-call, study, taking the board exams ..etc. The big difference from residency is that you will spend around 80% of the fellowship years seeing patients only in your specialty ( so basically you will spend three years in the hospital seeing, knowing, managing kids with all kinds of heart diseases).
 
You will be board certified or at least board eligible for most of your fellowship though (Boards are taken in October), so in theory, you could do moonlighting shifts to pick up extra money in an urgent care or something. Not sure how practical this is in cardiology fellowship, but most of the fellowships are generally composed of a year of clinical training and 2 years of research with some clinical training sprinkled in.

But yes, the pay is the same payscale as residents--you will get the same pay as the 4th and 5th year surgical residents at your institution.
 
Thank you @doctr1 and @mvenus929 for responding to my question. I'm assuming moonlighting shifts are extra shifts that you can pick up when you are not required to be working for your fellowship?
Also I am not a huge fan of research, actually kind of think it was boring from what I have done so far, does anyone know why research is so important for a fellowship and not just learning in clinical situations?
 
To answer some of your questions and put things in perspective...
1. After your three years of pediatric residency, you have a few choices, but they are a little more varied than what was described above:
a. Academic Practice: within an academic medical center, you can practice as a general pediatrician or a hospitalist (generally you will have varied responsibilities and will likely have significant teaching, research, and/or administrative responsibilities; in the near future, hospitalist jobs in larger centers may require additional fellowship training or a chief year as a prerequisite; there are also hospitalist jobs within different subspecialties at some centers where you will do most of the front line work but will answer to a subspecialty attending [for example, you will be the primary physician managing a group of heme onc inpatients, but will be supervised by a board certified oncologist, or you will be the pediatrician in an ER, but will have an ER attending as backup for complex traumas, etc]).
b. Private Practice: within a for-profit business, you can practice as a general pediatrician (in some cases, you will see outpatients AND manage your group's inpatients when they are hospitalized AND will manage your future patients while they are in the newborn nursery)
c. Chief Year: work in a highly administrative AND clinically heavy role within a residency program for one year before entering independent practice (though you will likely have some attending physician responsibilities during this year)
d. Fellowship: as mentioned above, this is additional training after residency ranging from 1-4 years, depending on the subspecialty; during this time, you will be paid only slightly better than a resident, but your call schedule and research requirements will vary vastly depending on the subspecialty

2. Moonlighting: These are extra shifts of general pediatric work that are generally NOT at your training institution and NOT related to your subspecialty training (i.e. hospitalist, ER shifts, transport, nursery, etc). They generally pay pretty well (ballpark $70-150/hr), but do not provide benefits. You will most likely NOT have time to moonlight during a cardiology fellowship. I did moonlighting only during my third year of cardiology fellowship and it was pretty rough.

3. Research: Most cardiology fellowships require more clinical time than the other subspecialties (18-24 months of clinical time with 12-18 months of research in cardiology programs, versus ~12-18 clinical months and 18-24 research months in many of the other peds subspecialties), however there is still a requirement by the ABP that all of the core pediatric fellowships require a research work product before being board eligible (this may change in the future, but not anytime soon). So, even if you hate research, you have to get some done during any of the peds fellowships. Also, you will learn to appreciate the research months as a bit of reprieve from the extremely busy clinical months.

4. Length of cardiology training: Nowadays, almost all academic pediatric cardiology jobs will require 4 years of fellowship training (3 years of peds cardiology and 1 year of "superfellowship" in the specialty of choice [echocardiography, electrophysiology, heart failure, interventional cardiology, etc] or 1-2 years for cardiac ICU or adult-congenital cardiology. However, there are still many private practice jobs that only require the 3 years of core fellowship training.

Hopefully this was helpful. I'm happy to answer any questions you have.
 
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Thank you @doctr1 and @mvenus929 for responding to my question. I'm assuming moonlighting shifts are extra shifts that you can pick up when you are not required to be working for your fellowship?
Also I am not a huge fan of research, actually kind of think it was boring from what I have done so far, does anyone know why research is so important for a fellowship and not just learning in clinical situations?
Everything MonkeyRalph says.

Cards fellowship is one of the busiest fellowships. It's safe to say you won't have time to moonlight and do all the things you need to do for fellowship. People who do cardiology LOVE the heart. They want to do echos and talk about anatomy or electrophysiology all the time. Fellows devote all their time to becoming experts about the heart. Most of them, like most intensivists I know, have little interest in moon lighting as a general pediatrician.

The research requirement is a point of contention among pediatricians at this point. The American Board is obsessed with research and making sure that everyone, even board certified pediatricians in private practice are doing it. I find it to be very out of touch with reality, and eventually this may have to change. Some specialties like ID and endocrine actually make less money after fellowship than they would as general pediatricians, and the research requirement means you're spending extra time (two years) missing out on a real salary. The other side of the coin is that most peds sub specialist jobs are academic, and to be at an academic center, you usually need research experience and some sort of niche or area of interest. This setup is different than a lot of adult sub specialties who can go into private practice. There just aren't that many free standing children's hospitals comparatively.
 
Just to add - "Research" is an incredibly broad term as well. I'm sure there are specific guidelines for fellowship requirements but just the sheer breadth and depth of different research opportunities in pediatric cardiology is astounding. A lot of this fields' clinical practice is extrapolated from adult cardiology. Most of it is "best guess". There are endless different topics you can pursue from biomakers, materials research, pharmacology, imaging (including echo, NMR, etc), to basic benchtop stuff. "Research" can be a lot of different things, it just matters that you find a topic you are interested and passionate about!
 
Wow thanks a whole lot! You guys definitely provided a more than adequate answer of what I was trying to learn from the field and what options that are available. I definitely agree with you @Siverhideo1985 about finding a topic you are interested in and doing research on that. It will definitely make it seem less tedious and more engaging. Thanks @MonkeyRalph for taking the time to compose an elaborate post. I definitely don't see myself in an academic setting since I'm not really interested in research and teaching. I definitely would like to practice either in a private practice or in a practice that is separate from a major hospital but affiliated as well.

@Stitch you make a good point about cardio fellowship being busy all the time and not having time for moonlighting, which I feel is like a downside. I know living on ~60k is above the average income, but I don't know how people can live so conservatively like that for 3+ years after residency and not choosing to go right into practice after residency for 6 figures. I am definitely one of the youngest med students since I came straight from undergrad, but I would like to be able to settle down and have a family prior to turning 30 and I feel like pursuing a lengthier career path like a fellowship with all that debt is not feasible to raise a family on or be able to afford a wedding, finding a good place to live etc etc. I dont know. I might just sound a little naive and its definitely feasible, but I dont know how people are willing to kind of live off of that "low" of an income after so many years of school. But on the other side, it is something that I am definitely interested in, but may have to settle. Do people apply to fellowships after years of practicing generally?
 
I heard from one of our fellows that the job market for interventional is really bad right now. Can anybody comment on what he means by this or have a different opinion?
 
The job market for interventional has been bad for awhile now. In some years, places that can easily train a 4th year in cath have not for fear of being unable to help that fellow get a job afterwards. Same thing has recently happened in EP, although I'd say the EP job market is slightly better than cath.
 
The job market for interventional has been bad for awhile now. In some years, places that can easily train a 4th year in cath have not for fear of being unable to help that fellow get a job afterwards. Same thing has recently happened in EP, although I'd say the EP job market is slightly better than cath.
Thanks a lot- Could you be a little specific with what has been happening to newly graduated interventional fellows (i.e. do they have to move to find a job? Do they have to do general cards until a cath person retires? etc.) Is there anything a new fellow can do to try and secure an interventional job or is it all connections and being in the right place at the right time when something pops up?
 
I don't know how the current job market is but in general for EP or cath you have to be very open to working almost anywhere when you come out of fellowship, at least if you want to work in your chosen sub-subspecialty. I would not be surprised if there are 4th year trained fellows who had to stick with general cards jobs at least initially after fellowship.

I think a lot of it is connections because people will catch wind of positions that may be opening before the job is posted. Often when an academic job is posted it's a formality due to rules and often the finalists are already picked. If you truly want to do cath I wouldn't let it deter you, but be aware your first job may not be a perfect situation but nobody says you have to stay there forever.
 
What's the lifestyle of gen peds cards? I don't need to make the big bucks, just need to pay off the loans at some point in life. But of course, would like to enjoy family life too. :/
 
Depends on the group setting that you join. Do you have fellows and echo techs to help with overnight stuff? If so your lifestyle can be pretty good. I remember once in residency I was talking to a NICU attending. He said the only attendings he sees that have to come in at night are pediatric cardiologists and surgeons (no fellowships where I did residency in either).

I think the lifestyle is manageable for family life as well, I wouldn't let fears of the lifestyle deter you from pursuing it as a career.
 
Depends on the group setting that you join. Do you have fellows and echo techs to help with overnight stuff? If so your lifestyle can be pretty good. I remember once in residency I was talking to a NICU attending. He said the only attendings he sees that have to come in at night are pediatric cardiologists and surgeons (no fellowships where I did residency in either).

I think the lifestyle is manageable for family life as well, I wouldn't let fears of the lifestyle deter you from pursuing it as a career.

To be honest, I don't mind working more than the average pediatrician at all; I was worried more about living life as an ortho resident. I'd be happy with somewhere in between.
 
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