Pay me like a French doctor. You know you want to.

[deleted128562]

Thanks, Obama ?

I'd hate to think that the solution is in fact, a form of class warfare, essentially a PR campaign to defend Physicians by going on the offense with the real numbers of who's making what in medicine but....

Like we were talking about in another thread, I think some ads highlighting the pay of hosptial CEOs, administrators, insurance comapany execs, etc would go a long way. Especially showing how much higher they are than physician salaries. Right now the public thinks of us as the greedy bad guys, and I think they need to understand that our salaries are a drop in the bucket compared to what our medical overlords are pulling in.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[llort1337]

I'll have $400k in student loans after I complete residency. I estimate that I'll be able to pay them all off within 4 years of getting my first real job, assuming I specialize and receive a starting salary that is inline with the averages.

Exactly. It's not as bed as most med students think. Med students just see the debt in front of them and freak out. Just wait till you see what your REAL income will be.

You will ALL be doctors. Don't be so gloomy. I promise you life will be good even if Obamacare pays you less than our predecessors in the 90s.

 

[circulus vitios]

I mean I don't like the idea of spending $400k on an education that's truly worth like $100k, if that, but it's not a financial death sentence.

 

[Perrotfish]

Likewise, with that being the ultimate goal, as OP indicated, there needs to be some kind of federal loan forgiveness or debt relief. There simply is no way that anyone incurring a, now, $300,000 in debt can pay that off within their lifetime and pursue a satisfactory life.

Its always best to look at student loans in the context of your lifetime earnings. An average, full time physician will make 5-12 million in a career, pretax. compared to approximately 2 million for a an average college graduate and 1.2 million for an average high school graduate. 300K of debt at 7% a year will cost you about 450K post tax to pay back over 10 years or 550K over 20, which is about 650K and 800K of pretax income. Not an insignificant hit, but even an average Pediatrician will likely still earn twice what an average college graduate earns in his career, and the average surgical subspecialist will earn 5 times what that college graduate earns. That's ignoring any repayment programs like PSLF What we can learn from this:

1) Unless your definition of a 'satisfactory' life requires you to make more than twice what the average college graduate makes, your life can be satisfactory even with student loans.

2) Compound interest kills lifetime earning. Pay these things off fast.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

I'll have $400k in student loans after I complete residency. I estimate that I'll be able to pay them all off within 4 years of getting my first real job, assuming I specialize and receive a starting salary that is inline with the averages.

That seems really ambitious. I graduated undergrad with a 1:2 debt to income ratio. I paid it off in a little over a year but I kept my expenses almost as low as when I was still in college. No mortgage, no car note, splitting rent, no large luxury purchases, minimal discretionary spending in general.

Are you thinking you can do your 4 year plan with a family and mortgage and all the things that come with that?

 

[llort1337]

I mean I don't like the idea of spending $400k on an education that's truly worth like $100k, if that, but it's not a financial death sentence.

Its always best to look at student loans in the context of your lifetime earnings. An average, full time physician will make 5-12 million in a career, pretax. compared to approximately 2 million for a an average college graduate and 1.2 million for an average high school graduate. 300K of debt at 7% a year will cost you about 450K post tax to pay back over 10 years or 550K over 20, which is about 650K and 800K of pretax income. Not an insignificant hit, but even an average Pediatrician will likely still earn twice what an average college graduate earns in his career, and the average surgical subspecialist will earn 5 times what that college graduate earns. That's ignoring any repayment programs like PSLF What we can learn from this:

1) Unless your definition of a 'satisfactory' life requires you to make more than twice what the average college graduate makes, your life can be satisfactory even with student loans.

2) Compound interest kills lifetime earning. Pay these things off fast.

Exactly. Now you med students see residents coming in and explaining things will be alright. They are at the very end of the tunnel and they are assuring you life will be OKAY. Young med students or ppl who haven't started med school yet like @WhippleWhileWeWork need to listen to the wiser, more experienced ppl here.

 

[NontradCA]

Exactly. Now you med students see residents coming in and explaining things will be alright. They are at the very end of the tunnel and they are assuring you life will be OKAY. Young med students or ppl who haven't started med school yet like @WhippleWhileWeWork need to listen to the wiser, more experienced ppl here.

I think you got those roles reversed. Circ isn't a med student and he has had that attitude shown on these boards for years. Also Perrotfish is in the minority of opinions of military service as a physician on these boards. Most of the attendings on the military forums would disagree with him.

 

[DermViser]

I was having a similar discussion with a capitalist friend of mine. FWIW, he is a partner at a private equity firm in NY and formerly was an analyst at Goldman Sachs. In essence, the conversation went as such:

Me, "What it comes down to, in the future, instead of me being an independent business owner of my own practice, I will become labour."

Him, "Dude, you'll be a neurosurgeon, no one will ever think of you as labour."

Me, "The current practice environment is changing. Having an independent practice or a small group is going away. As soon as the MBAs get us under their purview, we become another equation of how much they can get us to work with how little they can pay us."

Him, "You have a point, but I can't fathom you, or the general public would stand for that."

Me, "It's already done.."

I'm surprised he didn't know that. Obamacare regulations are accelerating the pace of hospitals swallowing up private practices like crazy allowing market consolidation. There are very few specialties that will allow one to still go into private practice and still be viable. Medicine is definitely not a field in which you'll be able to be your "own boss". You will be accountable to a suit.

 

[Perrotfish]

I think you got those roles reversed. Circ isn't a med student and he has had that attitude shown on these boards for years. Also Perrotfish is in the minority of opinions of military service as a physician on these boards. Most of the attendings on the military forums would disagree with him.

To be clear I didn't say the military was a good idea for everyone. I said it would be a good idea for everyone if you honestly believed that student debt was insurmountable, that the market for physicians was going to collapse, and that the we were all going to end up government employees anyway.

Law is a profession that has actually collapsed. They have a significant unemployment rate and rapidly declining salaries. Their student loans are actually insurmountable. There are more than 20 applicants for each military JAG contract. That's what it looks like when people are actually worried about their job market. If people were genuinely worried about medicine that's what medical recruiting would look like too. The fact that the military has so few applicants leads me to conclude that most of y'all aren't really that worried. Maybe a lot of you wouldn't join the military under any circumstances, but if you really felt like victims I'm betting we would have more applicants than we do.

 

[DermViser]

Smells like a premed.

What gave it away? lol.

 

[DermViser]

I'll have $400k in student loans after I complete residency. I estimate that I'll be able to pay them all off within 4 years of getting my first real job, assuming I specialize and receive a starting salary that is inline with the averages.

400K?!!?!

 

[circulus vitios]

That seems really ambitious. I graduated undergrad with a 1:2 debt to income ratio. I paid it off in a little over a year but I kept my expenses almost as low as when I was still in college. No mortgage, no car note, splitting rent, no large luxury purchases, minimal discretionary spending in general.

Are you thinking you can do your 4 year plan with a family and mortgage and all the things that come with that?

Living expenses don't scale linearly so that's not a fair comparison. No wife or family in the picture and I don't intend on having the latter change. I intend on specializing so I figure a starting salary of $225k/year on a 1099 contract with malpractice covered by my employer, which nets me $147k/year based on single federal income tax and a 5% state income tax. Figure $40k/year post-tax income for living expenses and $15k for personal benefits like health insurance and disability insurance, and I should be able to pay off my loans in about 4 years. Of course I'll be forfeiting retirement contributions but I think it makes more financial sense to pay off $400k in loans compounding at ~6% daily than it does to invest maybe $50k/year into a retirement account.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

Jesus, are you really that lazy to look it up yourself instead of arguing stupid stuff with no evidence?

From wiki for Sweden income tax:

Sweden has a progressive income tax, the rates for 2014 are as follows:

• 0% from 0 kr to 18,800 kr (~0 - 2,690 USD)
• Circa 31% (ca. 7% county and 24% municipality tax): From 18,800 kr to 433,900 kr (~2,690 - 62,140 USD)
• 31% + 20%: From 433,900 kr to 615,700 kr (~62,140 - 88,180 USD)
• 31% + 25%: Above 615,700 kr (88,180 USD and up) [4]

That's 56% everything above 88k. That's a lot more than the income tax here. For the love of god, look something up first before blabbering like always.

Hmm, brand new account, already on probation, resorts to name calling immediately, makes multiple unwarranted "call outs", unusually antagonistic, and surprisingly poor math skills.

You're going to go far, here.

 

[circulus vitios]

400K?!!?!

$30k from undergrad plus about $70k/year for med school. Assume a 5 year training period and $400k isn't too far off the mark.

 

[NontradCA]

To be clear I didn't say the military was a good idea for everyone. I said it would be a good idea for everyone if you honestly believed that student debt was insurmountable, that the market for physicians was going to collapse, and that the we were all going to end up government employees anyway, which I think physicians like to say but I don't think anyone really believes.

Law is a profession that has actually collapsed. Their student loans are actually insurmountable. There are more than 20 applicants for each military JAG contract. That's what it looks like when people are actually worried about their job market. If people were genuinely worried about medicine that's what medical recruiting would look like too. The fact that the military has so few applicants leads me to conclude that most of y'all aren't really that worried.

In a perfect world sure. I think you're assuming that all premeds know about reimbursement cuts, managing student loans and job outlook. Most think medicine is a golden ticket. Tuition increases every year, without fail. Reimbursement is decreasing. The amount of applicants per residency slot is increasing. These are facts. The government has already shown that they plan to get rid of PLSF. Why should med students just take this laying down and say to themselves "oh it could be worse"?

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

Living expenses don't scale linearly so that's not a fair comparison. No wife or family in the picture and I don't intend on having the latter change. I intend on specializing so I figure a starting salary of $225k/year on a 1099 contract with malpractice covered by my employer, which nets me $147k/year based on single federal income tax and a 5% state income tax. Figure $40k/year post-tax income for living expenses and $15k for personal benefits like health insurance and disability insurance, and I should be able to pay off my loans in about 4 years. Of course I'll be forfeiting retirement contributions but I think it makes more financial sense to pay off $400k in loans compounding at ~6% daily than it does to invest maybe $50k/year into a retirement account.

No one intends to fall in love . J/k, I hope your plan works out, getting that noose off in 4 years would be a great start to the rest of your life.

 

[Perrotfish]

400K?!!?!

Pretty standard. These loans compound in medical school and residency, so at 7% interest if you take out 250K (which is actually much cheaper than my medical school) then you'll owe 400K at the end of residency.

 

[LaughingMan]

compounding at ~6% daily

my my myyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

 

[DermViser]

$30k from undergrad plus about $70k/year for med school. Assume a 5 year training period and $400k isn't too far off the mark.

Even then, 70K per year in tuition is a lot! Are you a Carribean med student?

 

[circulus vitios]

No one intends to fall in love . J/k, I hope your plan works out, getting that noose off in 4 years would be a great start to the rest of your life.

My master plan is to practice emergency medicine in rural Texas and pay off my loans in like a year and a half, but I suppose that's contingent on liking EM in reality as much as I like it in my head.

 

[DermViser]

Pretty standard. These loans compound in medical school and residency, so at 7% interest if you take out 250K (which is actually much cheaper than my medical school) then you'll owe 400K at the end of residency.

I'll say it once and I'll say it again. If you want to do IM (besides very specific subspecialties), Peds, and Family Med, med school is not worth it. PA and NP have a much greater ROI.

 

[Perrotfish]

Even then, 70K per year in tuition is a lot! Are you a Carribean med student?

According to the AAMC the average cost of attendance for a private medical school is 280K and the average cost of attendance at a public school is 210K. 70K/year to cover both tuition and living expenses is exactly average for a private school student.

 

[circulus vitios]

Even then, 70K per year in tuition is a lot! Are you a Carribean med student?

No, US MD at a private school. Their official COA is like $80k.

 

[DermViser]

My master plan is to practice emergency medicine in rural Texas and pay off my loans in like a year and a half, but I suppose that's contingent on liking EM in reality as much as I like it in my head.

Stop watching ER. lol. j.k.

 

[DocVapor]

Keep talking. You're making yourself sound dumber by the moment. You provide no support for your argument and then try to make up bs against mine. Are you 12 bra?

Also, I have no school debt from college or med school so I'll be rollin once I finish residency. Best of my both worlds. I have all the medical fields open to me since I'm an AMG, while I also have no debt like an FMG. Suck it.

And that's how you take out the trash.

Don't know about another thread, but if you were dumb there also then I'm sure you deserved it.

Hmm.

Young med students or ppl who haven't started med school yet like @WhippleWhileWeWork need to listen to the wiser, more experienced ppl here.

 

[DermViser]

According to the AAMC the average cost of attendance for a private medical school is 280K and the average cost of attendance at a public school is 210K. 70K/year to cover both tuition and living expenses is exactly average for a private school student.

Do those figures include room and board? https://www.aamc.org/download/152968/data/debtfactcard.pdf

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

My master plan is to practice emergency medicine in rural Texas and pay off my loans in like a year and a half, but I suppose that's contingent on liking EM in reality as much as I like it in my head.

I'm sure you know about this already but there might be some state and/or federal programs that would reward that plan depending on the specifics.

My med school has a deal that if you go into the rural areas for 5 years in primary care or gen surg, tuition is waved.

 

[DermViser]

No, US MD at a private school. Their official COA is like $80k.

Oh, so that includes room and board then.

 

[Perrotfish]

I'll say it once and I'll say it again. If you want to do IM (besides very specific subspecialties), Peds, and Family Med, med school is not worth it. PA and NP have a much greater ROI.

I'm not sure if its a better investment than PA/NP, but that's not the definition of worth it. Pediatrics is still a chance to double your lifetime income vs not going to medical school.

Also the only PA/NP track that would reimburse better than a physician is a direct entry pathway. I wouldn't want to be that guy.

 

[circulus vitios]

I'm sure you know about this already but there might be some state and/or federal programs that would reward that plan depending on the specifics.

My med school has a deal that if you go into the rural areas for 5 years in primary care or gen surg, tuition is waved.

I've heard about those programs but I don't like the idea of being a slave to my job (surgery) or managing diabetes/depression/hypertension all day, every day (FM, IM to a lesser extent.)

 

[DermViser]

I'm not sure if its a better investment than PA/NP, but that's not the definition of worth it. Pediatrics is still a chance to double your lifetime income vs not going to medical school.

Also the only PA/NP track that would reimburse better than a physician is a direct entry pathway. I wouldn't want to be that guy.

I am talking about salary of Peds vs. the level of debt. At some very cheap state schools, and maybe Baylor, one of the lowest tuitions of all private schools, it's totally worth it financially.

The level of debt you're take on as a NP or PA and still enter Peds is much more worth it financially as a ROI.

 

[Postictal Raiden]

Pretty standard. These loans compound in medical school and residency, so at 7% interest if you take out 250K (which is actually much cheaper than my medical school) then you'll owe 400K at the end of residency.

Yup. Even if you attend a public school in my state, you'll still graduate with at least 260k + ~45k interests. During residency, this debt of 305k will accumulate ~22k a year. Assuming IBR-sized payments during residency, after 5 years, the debt will grow by another 100k. That's your total 400k of debt post residency.

Remember, we are assuming no debt from undergrad or previous grad school and that one attends a public school. Attending a private school will cost you at least another 10k/year during med school.

I'm projected to graduate residency with a very massive amount of debt (more than 400k). It sucks, but it is what it is.

 

[DermViser]

I've heard about those programs but I don't like the idea of being a slave to my job (surgery) or managing diabetes/depression/hypertension all day, every day (FM, IM to a lesser extent.)

If you're doing EM, this very well might be the case. Although in being a slave to your job, it will be more a "controlled lifestyle" slave.

 

[Postictal Raiden]

Do those figures include room and board? https://www.aamc.org/download/152968/data/debtfactcard.pdf

According to this source, the median 4-year COA for class of 2014 was ~220k for public school grads and ~290k for private school grads. They fail to acknowledge that, at an average 7% loan rate, you'll accumulate another 35-50k of interests over the 4 years. Therefore, the real numbers should be ~255k and 340k, respectively.

Also, these data were gathered from people who were going to graduate this year, so at a rate of average tuition increase of 3% a year, these estimates will only grow.

 

[circulus vitios]

If you're doing EM, this very well might be the case. Although in being a slave to your job, it will be more a "controlled lifestyle" slave.

I've worked swing shift before, for much more than the EM average of 1700-1800 hours a year, and it wasn't that bad. EM has its share of bull**** but I think it's a sweet deal when you're making $150-250/hour on shift.

 

[neusu]

I'm surprised he didn't know that. Obamacare regulations are accelerating the pace of hospitals swallowing up private practices like crazy allowing market consolidation. There are very few specialties that will allow one to still go into private practice and still be viable. Medicine is definitely not a field in which you'll be able to be your "own boss". You will be accountable to a suit.

Finally! The voice of reason

I don't know if these other posters are idealistic pre-meds or what. In any case, please, this is the future of medicine:

You spend $xxx,xxx for your education.

You go through residency getting paid (currently) $45,000-80,000/year for your time for 3-7 years for residency. 4-12 years for fellowship..

You make $70,000-2,000,000/year afterwards.

The folks who make the higher end, e.g. $2,000,000/year (and certainly not out of residency) have an established practice. They provide a necessary service. They are very gifted doctors. People come to them for their ability to do what they do. They charge people, and have a private practice wherein you have to pay them, as such.

The rest of doctors start at $70,000-400,000. As a previously mentioned thread indicated, yes paying of a $250,000 debt is only a $1,700/month payment. If you're making $100,000/year

In the future, instead of having this doctor, who has become so good at his "trade" to earn $2,000,000/year, you have him earning $70,000, or how about $500,000. Would he become the same surgeon he would have? Likely not. Will cash only practice proliferate in this system? More than likely yes, until they say that's also not acceptable.

For example, a doctor paid $100,000/year in South Dakota is paid $1,923/week gross, takes home $1,432/week net. With a $350,00 loan on 10-years that is 971/week, or $3,885/month, or 67% of your after taxes income. There is literally no way that this is sustainable. There is no way that a doctor with that debt to income/ratio could ever buy a house. I am sorry. There needs to be something done.

 

[DermViser]

Finally! The voice of reason

I don't know if these other posters are idealistic pre-meds or what. In any case, please, this is the future of medicine:

You spend $xxx,xxx for your education.

You go through residency getting paid (currently) $45,000-80,000/year for your time for 3-7 years for residency. 4-12 years for fellowship..

You make $70,000-2,000,000/year afterwards.

The folks who make the higher end, e.g. $2,000,000/year (and certainly not out of residency) have an established practice. They provide a necessary service. They are very gifted doctors. People come to them for their ability to do what they do. They charge people, and have a private practice wherein you have to pay them, as such.

The rest of doctors start at $70,000-400,000. As a previously mentioned thread indicated, yes paying of a $250,000 debt is only a $1,700/month payment. If you're making $100,000/year

In the future, instead of having this doctor, who has become so good at his "trade" to earn $2,000,000/year, you have him earning $70,000, or how about $500,000. Would he become the same surgeon he would have? Likely not. Will cash only practice proliferate in this system? More than likely yes, until they say that's also not acceptable.

For example, a doctor paid $100,000/year in South Dakota is paid $1,923/week gross, takes home $1,432/week net. With a $350,00 loan on 10-years that is 971/week, or $3,885/month, or 67% of your after taxes income. There is literally no way that this is sustainable. There is no way that a doctor with that debt to income/ratio could ever buy a house. I am sorry. There needs to be something done.

Premeds (especially SDN Premeds) knowing anything about economics or finances?!?! (esp. not if mommy & daddy are paying for it all)

You apparently haven't seen the threads where someone has a full ride to one med school (Cleveland Clinic Lerner) and will have full price tag of $200K in tuition costs to another school (Hopkins), and posters will tell the person to select Hopkins.

 

[KnuxNole]

Yeah, but then you'd have to live in France.

True, living in France would be highly depressing

 

[circulus vitios]

In the future, instead of having this doctor, who has become so good at his "trade" to earn $2,000,000/year, you have him earning $70,000, or how about $500,000. Would he become the same surgeon he would have? Likely not. Will cash only practice proliferate in this system? More than likely yes, until they say that's also not acceptable.

It's not like starting a practice in the golden age of medicine meant the downsides of practice ownership were completely negated. These physicians spent years or decades building up their practice, and it wasn't without financial risk. If you want a shot at $2 million a year, save your pennies and buy a stake in the construction of an ASC.

 

[llort1337]

Finally! The voice of reason

I don't know if these other posters are idealistic pre-meds or what. In any case, please, this is the future of medicine:

You spend $xxx,xxx for your education.

You go through residency getting paid (currently) $45,000-80,000/year for your time for 3-7 years for residency. 4-12 years for fellowship..

You make $70,000-2,000,000/year afterwards.

The folks who make the higher end, e.g. $2,000,000/year (and certainly not out of residency) have an established practice. They provide a necessary service. They are very gifted doctors. People come to them for their ability to do what they do. They charge people, and have a private practice wherein you have to pay them, as such.

The rest of doctors start at $70,000-400,000. As a previously mentioned thread indicated, yes paying of a $250,000 debt is only a $1,700/month payment. If you're making $100,000/year

In the future, instead of having this doctor, who has become so good at his "trade" to earn $2,000,000/year, you have him earning $70,000, or how about $500,000. Would he become the same surgeon he would have? Likely not. Will cash only practice proliferate in this system? More than likely yes, until they say that's also not acceptable.

For example, a doctor paid $100,000/year in South Dakota is paid $1,923/week gross, takes home $1,432/week net. With a $350,00 loan on 10-years that is 971/week, or $3,885/month, or 67% of your after taxes income. There is literally no way that this is sustainable. There is no way that a doctor with that debt to income/ratio could ever buy a house. I am sorry. There needs to be something done.

Yes but no doctor only makes 100k. Even PCPs average 200k. Yes if you start in a big coastal city you'll make low 100s, but that's your own stupidity to live there.

Premeds (especially SDN Premeds) knowing anything about economics or finances?!?! (esp. not if mommy & daddy are paying for it all)

You apparently haven't seen the threads where someone has a full ride to one med school (Cleveland Clinic Lerner) and will have full price tag of $200K in tuition costs to another school (Hopkins), and posters will tell the person to select Hopkins.

For once @DermViser I agree with you. Pretty funny. You are getting wiser in your old age, huh? You have changed a lot since your premed days lol.

 

[DermViser]

For once @DermViser I agree with you. Pretty funny. You are getting wiser in your old age, huh? You have changed a lot since your premed days lol.

Uh, no. I'm hardly "old". I was never that stupid in my premed days. Anyone who is seriously debating CCLM (full ride) vs. Hopkins or WashU (full ride) vs. Hopkins is an utter fool.

 

[llort1337]

Uh, no. I'm hardly "old". I was never that stupid in my premed days. Anyone who is seriously debating CCLM (full ride) vs. Hopkins or WashU (full ride) vs. Hopkins is an utter fool.

Lol. Looks like I hit a sensitive issue. Eh, oldman?

 

[DermViser]

Lol. Looks like I hit a sensitive issue. Eh, oldman?

No, however you do make a wonderful troll. I guess trolling the Derm threads wasn't enough for you.

 

[llort1337]

No, however you do make a wonderful troll. I guess trolling the Derm threads wasn't enough for you.

Nope. For derm debate you go to the derm forum. That's what it's for. But the ppl there had a twist in their panties and couldn't debate like civil men. Oh well.

 

[neusu]

Yes but no doctor only makes 100k. Even PCPs average 200k. Yes if you start in a big coastal city you'll make low 100s, but that's your own stupidity to live there.


For once @DermViser I agree with you. Pretty funny. You are getting wiser in your old age, huh? You have changed a lot since your premed days lol.

There are plenty of MDs who start out at <$100,000. If you look at the US concentration of population, the majority are on the coasts. You are advocating going in to the wild-wild-/wild-/ Mid-/-Mountain-West. They don't even have running water there, from what I hear!

 

[graviton]

Talk to the Europeans.

Greetings from a "socialist hellhole"! AMA

 

[DermViser]

Nope. For derm debate you go to the derm forum. That's what it's for. But the ppl there had a twist in their panties and couldn't debate like civil men. Oh well.

Oh you mean you were trolling there and then placed on "Probationary Status", like you are now?

 

[DermViser]

True, living in France would be highly depressing

How, so? France is not some third-world ****hole. Their physician salaries may be lower but when you compare how little they pay for their education, the hours they work per week plus benefits they are very much with the advantage.

 

[dadaddadaBATMAN]

Greetings from a "socialist hellhole"! AMA

I actually have a fair number of questions for you if you're willing to answer them: I'm especially interested if "Northern Europe" means Finland, Sweden or Norway.

 

[graviton]

I actually have a fair number of questions for you if you're willing to answer them: I'm especially interested if "Northern Europe" means Finland, Sweden or Norway.

Finland