Pay for Canadian physicians

[PublicHealth]

Anyone have salary information for Canadian physicians?

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[deschutes]

Like most questions about salary, I suspect this will be a fairly difficult issue to address comprehensively.

I have no hard figures (someone else with more time and interest can do the Google.ca legwork ) - my information is restricted to generalizations about pathologists' earnings and is worth what you paid for it!

If I remember my stickynote scribblings correctly, I was told that by a professor that pay tended to be lower in Quebec and the Maritimes, higher in BC, AB and Ontario (though perhaps offset by cost of living) with the prairies doing about average.

"Enough" and "happy" are words I tend to associate with Canadian physician pay - those who don't find it enough and aren't happy can always cross the border (and I am being factual really, no facetiousness intended in the least!).

 

[McGillGrad]

In Quebec, take home pay for a GP is roughly 40,000-50,000 per year. About the same as a policeman.

 

[firetown]

In Quebec, take home pay for a GP is roughly 40,000-50,000 per year. About the same as a policeman.

Intereting, I thought that doctors in Canada earn far more than that. Can you give some facts and figures on this.

 

[SomeGuy]

In Quebec, take home pay for a GP is roughly 40,000-50,000 per year. About the same as a policeman.

My BS/Troll detector just went off:
http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/full/163/1/76-a
This is a 2000 figure, so its slightly out of date:

The province's 6500 general practitioners currently earn an average of $150 000 annually, with net earnings of about $99 000.

So $100k AFTER taxes. It states that it went up 9% over the 4 years of the agreement, which is greater than the rate of inflation of that period as well.

Police Officers will make $40k-$50k gross, not net, unless they're very senior in their positions.

 

[tussy]

Quebec is the lowest paid province and is very different from the rest of the country, so don't look at the quebec numbers.

The number quoted about is ridiculous. As a senior resident I am making about $60,000 this year. My GP friends do much better than me.

Canadian physicians do fine. We make enough money.

 

[McGillGrad]

Quebec is the lowest paid province and is very different from the rest of the country, so don't look at the quebec numbers.

The number quoted about is ridiculous. As a senior resident I am making about $60,000 this year. My GP friends do much better than me.

Canadian physicians do fine. We make enough money.

At the 45% tax rate that is $33,000 take home.

 

[McGillGrad]

SomeGuy,

Get that Troll detector fixed and take a class on taxes in Quebec

Average: $150,000
Tax Bracket: 55%
Take Home $67,500

Montreal makes less because it is where all the GPs want to practice.

 

[Off2Oz]

SomeGuy,

Get that Troll detector fixed and take a class on taxes in Quebec

Average: $150,000
Tax Bracket: 55%
Take Home $67,500

Montreal makes less because it is where all the GPs want to practice.

Isn't the 55% just the amount of tax paid on income within that tax bracket? In other words, you pay 0% for the first 7-8k, 31.5% for the next 35k, etc.. so really, 55% at 150k is misleading.

I'm only mentioning this because I make about 60k right now, and I don't get taxed 45% (as per a previous post). After the gredation of the tax brackets is tacken into account, I'm actually taxed about 31.5% on the whole 60k.

I remember looking into this years ago, and I think Ontario's right up there with Quebec (and I live in Ontario).

Meh.. too lazy to look it up. I gotta go write more med essays now. =)

 

[anatomy_guy]

Hi folks
The quote below is right about the tax bracket bit. The effective tax for Ontario varies from 15% to approximately 39%. You get to deduct RRSP, personal exemption, charitable donations, etc. before the tax is applied. The tax is applied in gradations much like the US.
Cheers

Isn't the 55% just the amount of tax paid on income within that tax bracket? In other words, you pay 0% for the first 7-8k, 31.5% for the next 35k, etc.. so really, 55% at 150k is misleading.

I'm only mentioning this because I make about 60k right now, and I don't get taxed 45% (as per a previous post). After the gredation of the tax brackets is tacken into account, I'm actually taxed about 31.5% on the whole 60k.

I remember looking into this years ago, and I think Ontario's right up there with Quebec (and I live in Ontario).
=)

 

[anatomy_guy]

Hi folks
I agree with the quote below however there are some differences, now. In reality in Ontario, an initial office visit is $43 and subsequent office visits are $29. I don't have the fee for physical exams off the top of my head but it is around $135-175. The fees are listed on the Ministry of Health and Long term care website under physician sevrices. The fees are listed in the pdf files for fee costs or services rendered. The fees not only include the physician's fee but also the overhead to run their office. Each specialty has a different set of fees but office visits are generally the same. There was a maximum limit of $455,000 per year for a single family physician's services. The limit was similar for specialists with exceptions. This maximum limit includes the physician's salary, office staff salary, office rental and any other items that make up the overhead for a physician's practice. For this reason, I have seen some physician's hire their spouses or other family members to help run the office. Ontario has also been willing to extend the maximum limit for those physician's that participate in a group practice with the idea that more money goes into the physicians' pockets and less for overhead so more patients are seen. You should know that these fees have been raised recently but I don't have these numbers yet. If you are interested you can PM me for the website and location of the documents.
Cheers

My BS/Troll detector just went off:
http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/full/163/1/76-a
This is a 2000 figure, so its slightly out of date:

So $100k AFTER taxes. It states that it went up 9% over the 4 years of the agreement, which is greater than the rate of inflation of that period as well.

Police Officers will make $40k-$50k gross, not net, unless they're very senior in their positions.

 

[Nucana]

Fraser Institute computed that tax free day in Canada to be sometime in Mid-June for each year which works out to about 50%. In addition to Income tax, there are Federal and Provincial sales taxes of 15%, employment premiums and a socialized form of Canada pension plan contributions. Unlike UK, sales taxes are not included in price of goods. In return, there is a reasonably good public health/medical care and various Income supplement programs.
RCMP constables in their fourth years receive $64,000 before overtime, generous pension plan, medical benefits, etc. It has been reported that an auto plant worker after overtime plus other benefits gets more than GP/FP.
GP/FP are over worked and underpaid when compared to most other Specialties. The average of $99,000 in Quebec is after deducting expenses, and I think before Income tax, employment and CPP deductions.

 

[SomeGuy]

It has been reported that an auto plant worker after overtime plus other benefits gets more than GP/FP.

And good luck getting such a job unless your parents, their parents and their parents worked there. when was the last time GM had a net hiring rate? Oh right, they now have 125 000 employees in north america, while they used to have over 600 000 just a few decades ago. For the rest of us, we need to pursue harder avenues to get high paying jobs, we can't just walk into the local plant the day after high school graduation and have a job.

...and I think before Income tax, employment and CPP deductions.

You have just defined "gross." At the minimum, that is definitely not what they mean when they say "net."

anatomy_guy above is correct, Canada has a progressive income tax rate where you pay more % as you make more, not a flat one like another somehow imagined.
Here's a website to calculate after-tax income: http://www.ey.com/global/content.nsf/Canada/Tax_-_Calculators_-_2004_Personal_Tax

All I can say is that I'm shocked that potential/current _physicians_ are choosing to make stuff up instead of doing less than 2 minutes of research on a search engine. So much for citing the most prestigious journals in Canada around here... The idea that a potential (current?) physician doesn't even understand the basics of his/her own tax system or the difference between net and gross boggles my mind.

 

[McGillGrad]

not a flat one like another somehow imagined.

All I can say is that I'm shocked that potential/current _physicians_ are choosing to make stuff up instead of doing less than 2 minutes of research on a search engine.

I will same the same about you:

Google: http://www.drtax.ca/eng/kb/new/index.html?page=Government documentation/taxchanges05.htm

Basic math:

115k/year Gross

Quebec Tax Rate: 24%
Federal Rate: 29%

Total: 53% tax wihich gives you a net of $54,000 per year
This is not counting all kinds of deductions for employment insurance and pensions.

 

[desiguy8179]

you dont even know how to do simple maths 53% of 115k is around 60k not 54k.why are you again applying highest rate to all income,tax is calculated in slabs with different rates applying to income.highest rate of tax is only for income above 115 k after taking into account other slabs.I believe you have never paid income tax or quality of Mcgill grads is going down.
Why are you so adamant to show canadian physician salaries are so low just becoz you CANNOT go to canadian med school and are just trying to satisfy your hurt ego!!

 

[McGillGrad]

you dont even know how to do simple maths 53% of 115k is around 60k not 54k.why are you again applying highest rate to all income,tax is calculated in slabs with different rates applying to income.highest rate of tax is only for income above 115 k after taking into account other slabs.I believe you have never paid income tax or quality of Mcgill grads is going down.
Why are you so adamant to show canadian physician salaries are so low just becoz you CANNOT go to canadian med school and are just trying to satisfy your hurt ego!!

What is with all of you pseudo-accountants popping out of the woodwork with your two cents without an ounce of knowledge on the subject? I have a CFA, so trying to argue that I do not know taxes is not a great idea.

Even with the graduated system of taxes being a certain percentage per income range, after ~115k, it equals to 53% of your income.

This is not including deductions, RRSPs and 'creative accounting' that most people employ to prevent the taxman from robbing you blind.

BUT the fact remains that in Quebec, the tax rate for those over 115k will be over 50% as opposed to roughly 33% in the US depending on the state.

You may now return to your regularly scheduled trolling. And learn some proper English grammar. It will help you in life.

 

[Nucana]

And good luck getting such a job unless . . . "

As the numbers of cars recalled which are made in Ontario are the lowest in North America, several auto plants are actually adding additional shifts. Toyota has committed to building another factory in Ontario, and there will be additional well paying jobs for all types of skilled workers.

" . . even understand the basics of his/her own tax system or the difference between net and gross boggles my mind.

The article should be read in its proper context. It refers to Quebec government budget and fees disbursed to GP/FP and others, therefore payments received by Doctors are gross earnings. Expenses for GP/Fp are generally higher than other Specialties, and works out to be between 30% to 40%. As rent is lower in Quebec, it worked out to be 32%, bringing average net earnings before taxes and other contributions to $99,000 referred to in the CMA publication. It is highly unlikely that CRA, formerly Revenue Canada will provide net Income for Quebec but not for rest of Canada. CMA is certainly not in position to obtain net income after taxes as there are too many variables to be factored in..

As there have been significant expansion of FM residency spots, for example in Ontario by 70% from 206 to 337, it will take longer for new FPs to obtain average earnings.

 

[firetown]

At the 45% tax rate that is $33,000 take home.

That will be for working as a resident.

 

[firetown]

What is with all of you pseudo-accountants popping out of the woodwork with your two cents without an ounce of knowledge on the subject? I have a CFA, so trying to argue that I do not know taxes is not a great idea.

Even with the graduated system of taxes being a certain percentage per income range, after ~115k, it equals to 53% of your income.

This is not including deductions, RRSPs and 'creative accounting' that most people employ to prevent the taxman from robbing you blind.

BUT the fact remains that in Quebec, the tax rate for those over 115k will be over 50% as opposed to roughly 33% in the US depending on the state.

You may now return to your regularly scheduled trolling. And learn some proper English grammar. It will help you in life.

I was wondering if you are a practicing physician and is so sure about the net income levels. If anybody is a practicing physician and can shed insight on net income, that will be great.

You however made mention of the fact of employing creative accounting for the taxes. That is what physicians must do both in the US and Canada. Infact that is what every business person must do otherwise you will be paying most of your income as taxes. I read an article that was talking about how bad physicians are at business. Inspite of whatever is on the internet, you need to be a business person to get around taxes and cutting costs.

 

[McGillGrad]

I was wondering if you are a practicing physician and is so sure about the net income levels. If anybody is a practicing physician and can shed insight on net income, that will be great.

I should have made it clear that I am not a practicing physician, but that my girlfriend is a McGill graduate doing her residency. She is in her third year and will be specializing in cardiac surgery. The information I am providing is coming straight from her friends that are practicing GP physicians in the city of Montreal. The figures may not be 100% accurate considering I did not go over their taxes, but they are close.

Hopefully we can have someone give their own perspective and settle this thread.

 

[Off2Oz]

I should have made it clear that I am not a practicing physician, but that my girlfriend is a McGill graduate doing her residency. She is in her third year and will be specializing in cardiac surgery. The information I am providing is coming straight from her friends that are practicing GP physicians in the city of Montreal. The figures may not be 100% accurate considering I did not go over their taxes, but they are close.

Hopefully we can have someone give their own perspective and settle this thread.

Yep, that information would have been useful.

I find it more credible than telling us about a CFA (lots of people quote lots of different credentials around here. heh). In any case, Quebec is quite a taxing place, then. =)

Cheers,
M.

 

[CircleTheDrain]

This will give you the PGY rates by region.
http://www.carms.ca/jsp/main.jsp?path=../content/program/salary

 

[desiguy8179]

this will give you idea about physician salaries in province of british columbia,canada which is only province that publishes salary stats
BC Physician Salaries:
www.healthservices.gov.bc.ca/msp/paystats/IRM/practitioner.pdf

 

[docbill]

Man u guys are getting nasty.

I mean come on that is a joke 55-75k a year after taxes (your taxes have already deducted a lot of your so called business expenses.. maybe even car payments), you still get to take home 6250k a year. That is impossible to live on in the province in Quebec. Where living is cheaper then in Toronto or Vancouver. Where car insuranse is no fault and thus cheaper, and where beer is 30-40% cheaper then in the rest of the country. Not to mention you can get it from the depaneur.

Also I mean come on... the province pays most of your medical training and more or less guarantee you a residency position... tuition is anywhere from 1200 to 4500 (mcgill)/year. Compared to 15-20K in other provinces. Also can you believe the nerves of this government. If you practice just outside the big city (just after your graduation) you don't get 25% reduction in your salary. I mean the things people have to do to become doctors these days.

In Conclusion:

1. As a physician you make enough money.
2. Do something you like even if it will pay a punny 50 to 75k a year after taxes.
3. Complaints can be sent to ministry of health in Quebec City.

 

[docbill]

I forgot to mention.

If anyone important is listening.

I would be pleased to take the 50k a year if you give me a seat in a Canadian medical school. And I will be willing to work in rural Lac Sainte _________ for 5 years after my training. I will do ambulance-helicoptor thingy 2 weekends a month and will gladly serve with medecin sans frontier for free 4 weeks a year.

JUST GIVE ME A SEAT IN CANADA!

 

[Off2Oz]

Man u guys are getting nasty.

I mean come on that is a joke 55-75k a year after taxes (your taxes have already deducted a lot of your so called business expenses.. maybe even car payments), you still get to take home 6250k a year. That is impossible to live on in the province in Quebec. Where living is cheaper then in Toronto or Vancouver. Where car insuranse is no fault and thus cheaper, and where beer is 30-40% cheaper then in the rest of the country. Not to mention you can get it from the depaneur.

Also I mean come on... the province pays most of your medical training and more or less guarantee you a residency position... tuition is anywhere from 1200 to 4500 (mcgill)/year. Compared to 15-20K in other provinces. Also can you believe the nerves of this government. If you practice just outside the big city (just after your graduation) you don't get 25% reduction in your salary. I mean the things people have to do to become doctors these days.

In Conclusion:

1. As a physician you make enough money.
2. Do something you like even if it will pay a punny 50 to 75k a year after taxes.
3. Complaints can be sent to ministry of health in Quebec City.

Dude, you're awesome.

I can't agree more. And I'd be happy to work in Jonquiere if they'd let me in. =)

Good luck,
M.

 

[Blake]

DocBill tells it like it is

 

[winstonm]

http://www.healthservices.gov.bc.ca/msp/legislation/pdf/bluebook2003.pdf

This gives individual billings by BC health workers by name. You can find what specialty each person is, if they are fellows of the RCPS, by typing the name and province here after clicking "confirm status":

http://www.royalcollege.ca/index_e.php

 

[avenirv]

Anyone have salary information for Canadian physicians?

http://www.cma.ca/multimedia/staticContent/HTML/N0/l2/MedStudentCentre/Medicine/income.pdf

in canada, as in united states the taxing system is progressive.
first 7500: tax 0
then they go from 17% to 60%. 60% is from what is above 80k.
so if you have 150k, the last 70k are taxed at 60%. do not look at what various "slow" people say. but the taxes are applied after various deductions, etc.

 

[Nucana]

http://www.cma.ca/multimedia/staticContent/HTML/N0/l2/MedStudentCentre/Medicine/income.pdf

in canada, as in united states the taxing system is progressive.
first 7500: tax 0
then they go from 17% to 60%. 60% is from what is above 80k.
so if you have 150k, the last 70k are taxed at 60%. do not look at what various "slow" people say. but the taxes are applied after various deductions, etc.

It is important to note that above website shows Fees or Payments received and are before operating expenses.
Canadian income tax is made up of both federal and provincial rates. Depending on province, provincial rate is about 50% of federal. Thus as federal rate is 16%, total rate is about 24%for salary/income up to about the first $25,000. This is after personal deduction of $7500 and certain other deductions, for example pension contribution up to a certain amount.

 

[DrIng]

For info I found this recently...
Physician Vacancy #100-0006 return to vacancy list


Basic Information

Community: Prince George

Specialty: Family Practitioner/General Medicine

Position Status: Perm

Start Date Immediate
Practice Profile

Type of Facility: Hospital

Hours of Work: Monday to Friday, plus on-call

On-Call: Negotiable with colleagues

Description: Private practice, independent practitioner(s). Multiple positions available.
Compensation

Compensation Type: Fee-for-service

Estimated
Remuneration: $180,000 - 250,000

Overhead: 30 - 35 percent

Benefits: Recruitment incentive (signing bonus), Rural Continuing Medical Education funding, annual retention benefits (flat fee + percentage) based on the Rural Subsidiary Agreement and interview/visit assistance.

Vacation/Leave: Discretionary

Travel Allowances: See benefits

Qualifications: CMPA Membership (Mandatory)

Comments: Prince George is a growing, thriving community requiring additional family practitioners to serve its population. There are several vacancies; some existing practices are for sale and opportunities are available to establish new practices. Will have the opportunity for clinical and/or academic affiliation to the Northern Medical Program beginning fall 2004.

 

[desiguy8179]

canadian physicians no longer consider US as more attractive anymore...can give you indication regarding physicians salary here.here is an article in toronto star recently published
Canada's doctors are coming home
New numbers reverse 30-year trend


FROM CANADIAN PRESS

For the first time in 30 years, more doctors are returning to Canada than leaving the country for so-called greener pastures in the United States or overseas, a comprehensive report on Canada's physician supply shows.
The report by the Canadian Institute for Health Information (CIHI), released today, shows that 317 physicians returned to Canada last year and 262 left.

The net surplus is the first since the institute began collecting this data in 1969, and is "a continuation in the trend we have seen since the mid-1990s of a decreasing number of doctors leaving Canada for opportunities in other countries," said Steve Slade, co-author of the report.

"That's not happened once on record with our database, and it's a first, a historical year for Canada," he said from Ottawa.

The number of doctors who left Canada stood at 420 in 2000; and in 1994, a whopping 771 physicians crossed the border south or left the country's shores.

Meanwhile, a 24 per cent rise in the number of doctors returning home in 2004, compared with five years earlier, gave Canada's physician workforce the net gain.

CIHI also found that the number of doctors across the country had risen by five per cent between 2000 and 2004 - to 60,612 from 57,803.

But that increase has not made it easier for Canadians to find a family physician or get access to a specialist, said Slade, noting that growth in the country's population kept pace during that period, leaving the number of doctors per 100,000 residents relatively stable.

"I guess we're somewhat relieved to see there's a net increase in physicians coming into Canada, although it doesn't really help us in overall numbers," said Dr. Ruth Collins-Nakai, president of the Canadian Medical Association. "We are more or less treading water in terms of our overall physician supply."

Collins-Nakai said the return of some physicians may be related to Canada luring back doctors to head or staff high-profile research institutes at universities across the country.

She said hundreds more medical school entry positions are needed - and professors to replace those retiring to teach them - if Canada is to even approach self-sufficiency in achieving a physician workforce large enough to serve all Canadians in a timely fashion.

"In order to accomplish that, the medical schools, which are currently bursting at their seams, are going to need increased resources," the cardiologist said from Edmonton.

Complicating efforts to ramp up the number of doctors to meet an aging population's growing demand for both family practitioners and specialists is the concurrent greying of health-care services.

Baldly put, Canada's doctors are getting older. In 2000-2004, the average age of physicians increased by one year, to 49 from 48. During the same period, the proportion of physicians under age 40 dropped by 13 per cent.

"That's like our window into the future, where we see a decrease in the number of really quite recent graduates in Canada," said Slade.

The report also shows that the doctor supply is made up increasingly of women: in 2004, females accounted for almost one-third of physicians, a 10 per cent increase since 2000. Among doctors 40 and under, women made up nearly half in 2004.

But with more female doctors working shorter hours, access to care is not improving for patients, but declining, experts says.

Making matters worse for patients is the expected retirement of more than six per cent of physicians in the next two years, said Collins-Nakai. "And we expect up to one-third of all physicians to be decreasing hours of work.

"Many physicians over the past half or (full) decade have been doing excessive hours of work to provide access to patients," she said. "And we know we've got increased burnout levels among physicians."

 

[DrArepa]

I forgot to mention.

If anyone important is listening.

I would be pleased to take the 50k a year if you give me a seat in a Canadian medical school. And I will be willing to work in rural Lac Sainte _________ for 5 years after my training. I will do ambulance-helicoptor thingy 2 weekends a month and will gladly serve with medecin sans frontier for free 4 weeks a year.

JUST GIVE ME A SEAT IN CANADA!

DITTO!!