Paths to neural computer interface research

[MilesDavisTheDoctor]

Hi everyone I'm going to be starting as an M1 in a month or so and I had a question that I thought some of you might have a much better understanding about than I do. I am extremely interested in neural interface research (BCIs myoelectric interfaces/prosthesis). It's one of the things that excited me the most about all of medicine and its future. I wanted to know what paths could lead someone to eventually being a part of this type of research in the future.

I'm not an MTSP student and I'll be graduating with only an MD but may take a year to do research or get an MS. I'm pretty doubtful that I'm going to be the PI of a lab doing this kind of research getting RO1s and stuff like that but just being involved with this type of stuff in the future in perhaps a more limited role is something I think I could be really happy with. I'm also interested in surgical sub-specialties like neurosurgery, ortho, PRS etc.. but am definitely going into med school with an open mind. The most obvious choices I think would be neurosurgery or ortho/PRS with a peripheral nerve focused fellowship but I'm interested in what you guys think. I've also seen neurologists, PM&R, anesthesiologists, and other types of doctors involved in this stuff after going on a lot of different medical school's labs websites.

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[Neuronix]

I thought I wanted to do this kind of work. I couldn't really find a good lab that did this at my institution and switched to something else.

Keep an open mind. It's too early to ask this question as an MS1.

 

[MilesDavisTheDoctor]

@Neuronix thanks for the reply! I am 100% with you that it's pretty early for me to be asking these questions but I just want to know what I should do to keep it open as an option as my career advances. Also, I'm curious to what extent it's feasible to be involved in a limited role (ie. not the PI but maybe co-PI or just a collaborator) in a lab that works on stuff like this.

 

[eteshoe]

Try looking at BME labs at the institution you'll be attending. Depending on the lab, you could get some limited involvement (like an UG or summer research student). I would suggest that you at least wait a few months and get used to the pace of MS1 year before reaching out to PIs.

 

[Neuronix]

@Neuronix thanks for the reply! I am 100% with you that it's pretty early for me to be asking these questions but I just want to know what I should do to keep it open as an option as my career advances. Also, I'm curious to what extent it's feasible to be involved in a limited role (ie. not the PI but maybe co-PI or just a collaborator) in a lab that works on stuff like this.

You can always collaborate, but you don't need an MD/PhD to collaborate. Your goal as an MD/PhD is to lead, have your own lab, run studies, etc.

The best advice I can give you is to go to your program, find who's working on this there, and talk to them. That's the same advice for picking a medical specialty.

 

[MilesDavisTheDoctor]

@Neuronix That seems like pretty solid advice and I'll try to do that. I'm not an MD/PhD student, I'm just getting an MD, and even though I'd like to I don't think I'll be able to lead studies related to this stuff just because I see myself being primarily clinically involved in my future career (maybe like 80%/20%). I'm just interested in, like you said, maybe collaborating with a PI who is leading these types of studies. Do you think that is a more realistic goal than eventually being the PI of a lab like this or are these sorts of roles equally rare?

 

[Neuronix]

@Neuronix That seems like pretty solid advice and I'll try to do that. I'm not an MD/PhD student, I'm just getting an MD, and even though I'd like to I don't think I'll be able to lead studies related to this stuff just because I see myself being primarily clinically involved in my future career (maybe like 80%/20%). I'm just interested in, like you said, maybe collaborating with a PI who is leading these types of studies. Do you think that is a more realistic goal than eventually being the PI of a lab like this or are these sorts of roles equally rare?

Oh I misunderstood. Yeah with an MD what you're proposing is just fine. Go to med school, keep an open mind, and see what you like to practice clinically. There are multiple potential routes here. You have to pick a medical specialty that you can practice and enjoy. So if you like surgery maybe that ends up being neurosurgery, if not maybe neurology, or maybe PM&R, or who knows what else... But you won't know until you've been in med school.

 

[deleted728364]

Check out Jamie Henderson. Works with perhaps the best BCI research lab in the world (Shenoy's group). I think there are going to be even more opportunities like this, as high-throughput electrode arrays are now able to measure more and more neurons, and it's only a matter of time for one to be developed for humans. (though neurosurgeons already implant electrodes to collect data for basic science rsrch)

Might be other good examples at UPMC I think

 

[MilesDavisTheDoctor]

Yeah I'm familiar with jamie henderson his research is like the coolest in the world but the path to becoming a neurosurgeon isn't a cakewalk lol ( and its still pretty brutal as an attending). I'm also not really as sure that I'm so jazzed about stuff in neurosurgery that isn't like this awesome techy stuff like strokes and GBM. Which is why I'm curious about other paths to getting to do this type of research as an attending.

 

[deleted728364]

Have you thought about deep brain stimulation? While you'll never help make a Luke Skywalker arm, neurologists routinely work with neurosurgeons for DBS for movement disorders. One of the academic neurologists at my univeristy (small state uni w med school) would routinely fetch my PI to help him manage PD patients with implanted electrodes.

 

[MilesDavisTheDoctor]

Yeah, i think DBS is super cool but its unclear to me to what extent neurologists are even really involved with that, like you said neurosurgeons are the ones implanting the devices. And there's a certain stereotype about neurology that they can diagnose your disease but almost never cure it which is something I think I wouldn't like very much.

 

[themathbook]

I am an MS2, soon to be MS3. What you're describing here is exactly my situation. I wanted to be involved in BCI research, even just collaboration. I want to go into neurology. Tech is my passion. BCI is ultra exciting. Based on the research professor (engineering professor) I talked to at my med school, he said neurosurgeons insert the device, and neurologists follow up with the patients, so neurosurgeons, neurologists, all have the potential opportunities to collaborate with research engineers, grad students. I'm also trying to learn more about this topic too!! We should be friends!!

 

[MilesDavisTheDoctor]

Thanks for bumping this thread, feel free to pm me. I think neurology is probably a solid way to get into this sort of research but unfortunately, clinical neurology doesn't really tickle my fancy. Neurosurgery is basically the coolest field ever to me but, unfortunately again, there are enough other negatives about the field ( most notably the really not awesome outcomes a lot of patients have) that I'm not super sure I want to go down that road. These days I've been thinking more about ortho but I'm not super sure there is any good way to get involved in BCI's per se through ortho. There is some stuff going on with myoeletric prosthesis in hand/upper extremity surgery, but besides that I'm not aware of any of the really cool techy stuff going on in ortho.

 

[Aldertonghen]

I’m interested in BCI research and am applying for neurology this year. I think you really underestimate neurology. We’re constantly find new effective therapies and there’s scope for neurointervention too if you want procedural heavy, quick fix kind of satisfaction. In DBS, the movement disorders specialist is actually in the OR helping with the implantation. Really the surgeon just burrs a hole and plops the electrode, it’s upto the neurologist to guide him towards the relevant nuclei, then program it.

 

[MilesDavisTheDoctor]

What does your future ideal practice look like?

 

[Aldertonghen]

What does your future ideal practice look like?

Depends on which subspecialty I’ll enjoy. In Movement and epilepsy, you can really do actual hardcore BCI research. I can see myself in academia and split my time 50/50 research and clinical. On the clinical side it would be outpatient movement disorders (adjusting DBS settings), some Botox, and programming DBS in the OR.

If I like inpatient though I’ll probably go stroke and do telestroke on the side (nights/weekends), while pretty much doing almost full time research otherwise. I know an attending who does telestroke on the weekends, and 4 days a week of more translational TDCS research. While not as lucrative as just pure clinical vascular neurology, it’s far more interesting.

If you like procedures, good lifestyle and decent pay, you can also go pain. Here BCIs are in a more rudimentary stage but still possible- here’s a nature article of a case report: Relief of neuropathic pain after spinal cord injury by brain–computer interface training - Spinal Cord Series and Cases

Regardless, I feel the future of BCIs are non invasive/minimally invasive devices, and neurology is the best field to do it. There’s the Stentrode for example which is an endovascular device (implanted by an interventional neuroradiologist- a pathway open to neurologists, radiologists and neurosurgeons). But although they’re pretty crap now, I think non invasive techniques will eventually dominate

Really BCIs are potentially so diverse there’s multiple neurology fields that can make use of it, and there’s a neuro field for everyone as long as one is okay with not having the perfect job.

 

[mszzeta]

Hi everyone I'm going to be starting as an M1 in a month or so and I had a question that I thought some of you might have a much better understanding about than I do. I am extremely interested in neural interface research (BCIs myoelectric interfaces/prosthesis). It's one of the things that excited me the most about all of medicine and its future. I wanted to know what paths could lead someone to eventually being a part of this type of research in the future.

I'm not an MTSP student and I'll be graduating with only an MD but may take a year to do research or get an MS. I'm pretty doubtful that I'm going to be the PI of a lab doing this kind of research getting RO1s and stuff like that but just being involved with this type of stuff in the future in perhaps a more limited role is something I think I could be really happy with. I'm also interested in surgical sub-specialties like neurosurgery, ortho, PRS etc.. but am definitely going into med school with an open mind. The most obvious choices I think would be neurosurgery or ortho/PRS with a peripheral nerve focused fellowship but I'm interested in what you guys think. I've also seen neurologists, PM&R, anesthesiologists, and other types of doctors involved in this stuff after going on a lot of different medical school's labs websites.

This is a vibrant filed and you may be able to cooperate with industry in this area once you become a physician. And I have seen many people taking a gap year at some point to study things they like