***Oversupply of Pharmacists***

www.westernu.edu/pharmacy/
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UNMorBUST said:
Why are you trolling?
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Not trying to troll - honestly just wondering.
I suppose this is just not going anywhere though because we are not going to change each other's opinions online.
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Pharmant, my position has not changed. My position is that there is no shortage but there is no surplus.

However, for my class. . . there were no sign on bonuses. Two years ago, companies were offering 10k. Hours on our contract has been cut from 44+ minimum hour guarantee to 30. 30 hours equal to about 80k.

This year, anothe pharmacy school opened in NYC. It doesnt take a genius to know that if hours are being cut back with two pharmacy schools, what a third school will do.

I have no reason to cause alarm. However, I just want to make sure each one of you guys are informed on whats happening out there. New pharmacy schools are your biggest threats.
 
Everyone, listen up! we need to shut down new pharmacy schools. They will be our thread of the future. We can come up with a plan to destroy them.
 
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Transformer said:
I can understand your preference. Life would be so much easier if one can finish one thing and then do another. The reality is this seldom happens at most pharmacies. Pharmacists often prioritize their tasks and often do stop everything he or she is doing to give a consultation or take a copy/transfer prescription.

I'm not saying pharmacists are the only ones who do this. Techs and Clerks do the same. If a pharmacy is busy and the order comes in, clerks or techs put away the medication order when the rush dies down. It takes team work to run a successful pharmacy.

So my question is if the pharmacists wants me to go to the pick up window or finish a chem compound medication stat; why can't the pharmacist stop what he or she is doing for a minute to do a chemo post check?

My point is instead of looking at a post check as someone coming" up to you and bug you when are you busy," look at it as the tech is working and cooperating with you (the pharmacist) to provide the best care for your patients. (Always remember why you are working in a health care profession. You're here for the patients).

I believe the good pharmacists don't mind stopping what he or she is doing for a minute to help a fellow pharmacist or pharmacy tech.

:)
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Transformer and others,
You make some very good points and I agree with you. I think a big difference between "some" pharmacists today and those from years ago (like me--53 and just celebrated my 30 yrs in this wonderful profession) is back in the day most pharmacists wanted to be pharmacists. The money wasn't a big part of the equation (I started at $12.50/Hour) and we were a dime a dozen, very easy to replace. Please don't think I mean this towards all students now, but many are arrogant concerning their accomplishments in becoming pharmacists. I think we have been a humble yet proud profession and our interaction with patients is part of our job--that being said I think many go into the profession for other reasons and since there has been such a shortage feel they can be lazy. Beware, the shortage may not be like this forever and when the money decreases we may see job changing by those that went into it for the "wrong" reasons.
Concerning techs: Treat them with the utmost respect and let them know how much they mean to you. They are truly the backbone of retail pharmacy. In fact if we all followed the "Golden Rule" do unto others, then everyone would be better off. If you think being "bothered" by questions from anyone (from the 90 YO constipated lady to the neurosurgeon, then you better think twice before becoming a pharmacist) IT'S PART OF THE JOB
Concerning the money: Good question to ask yourself is whether you'd become a pharmacist to make $50,000/year even if tuition was much cheaper. Don't get me wrong, I love the pay rate now, but all things being equal (lower tuition and lower wages) you better like what you're doing.
Concering the shortage: Well, I don't think there will always be such a shortage as there has been. However, I do think there will ALWAYS be a need and I don't think you'll see pharmacists standing in soup lines. The wages may start to level out (in fact they have where I live) Again, better like what you're doing, and as someone pointed out, "good pharmacist" will have jobs--that's true with almost every profession.
Concerning the future of pharmacy: WOW, you guys have so much to choose from. The direction of pharmacy is going in a GREAT direction--I'm sad that I will only get to enjoy the tail end of the future. Your choices are vast and growing by the day--be a great pharmacist in whatever field of pharmacy you choose--at one point in time we were the MOST RESPECTED profession in this country--I'd like to see us get there again--we won't get there with arrogance but with compassion, communication, and patience. Nobody has to go through channels to talk to their pharmacist, they just pick the phone up or come in and we're there--be happy about that, it's what makes us unique and valuable.
 
Thank you class of 78 for your humbling post. We wouldnt have so many opportunities today if it wasnt for oldies like you.
 
Aznfarmerboi said:
Pharmant, my position has not changed. My position is that there is no shortage but there is no surplus.

However, for my class. . . there were no sign on bonuses. Two years ago, companies were offering 10k. Hours on our contract has been cut from 44+ minimum hour guarantee to 30. 30 hours equal to about 80k.

This year, anothe pharmacy school opened in NYC. It doesnt take a genius to know that if hours are being cut back with two pharmacy schools, what a third school will do.

I have no reason to cause alarm. However, I just want to make sure each one of you guys are informed on whats happening out there. New pharmacy schools are your biggest threats.
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:cry:
80K a year is totally fine for those that don't owe any loans...
 
I heard that many areas are saturated with pharmacists now. If we were to enter pharmacy school now, would we be able to have jobs in the future?
 
Nope. :scared:

Seriously, if you are good at your job there will be openings.
 
As long as you go to a good school as opposed to a diploma mill I'm sure you'll be fine.
 
seriously.......we have a thread like this every few days. Why are all the pre-pharm students always freaking out.
 
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thephoenician88 said:
seriously.......we have a thread like this every few days. Why are all the pre-pharm students always freaking out.
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Because they're concerned that their gravy train of an "easy" six figures is quickly on the path to derailment?

Because they didn't really want to go into Pharmacy because they liked Pharmacy but because of the money, and now that it might actually be a more normal field to get into (Hello, MOST people don't just walk into six figure jobs after graduation) and thus their life is over.

I really don't get it either, but I guess that's because my prior schooling was going to put me into a super-saturated field with tons of qualified applicants, and pre-pharmers have been spoiled with tales of easy money.
 
Not worth it. You may want to off yourself with a Louisville slugger if you've already started.
 
Passion4Sci said:
Because they're concerned that their gravy train of an "easy" six figures is quickly on the path to derailment?

Because they didn't really want to go into Pharmacy because they liked Pharmacy but because of the money, and now that it might actually be a more normal field to get into (Hello, MOST people don't just walk into six figure jobs after graduation) and thus their life is over.

I really don't get it either, but I guess that's because my prior schooling was going to put me into a super-saturated field with tons of qualified applicants, and pre-pharmers have been spoiled with tales of easy money.
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Maybe it makes me a terrible person, but this gives me a sense of satisfaction.
 
The big change that I see is there are no longer 3 openings (or whatever) for every one new pharmD grad. So instead there may be one job for every three pharmacists who are applying. Keep in mind that this is normal in almost every field! In many fields there are as many as 20 people applying for every one job opening. And although I pulled these rough numbers out of my ass the point is that there is competition everywhere and it really isn't a bad thing. There is still likely less competition between pharmacists than in many other career fields. You may not have a job already secured a year before you graduate but there is still plenty of demand for pharmacists. Now everyone stop! :)
 
JackFruitLover said:
I heard that many areas are saturated with pharmacists now. If we were to enter pharmacy school now, would we be able to have jobs in the future?
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One of my cousins just graduated and got a 120K job with a 25K signing bonus. Even if it gets 30% worse than that in four or five years, you're looking at 84K (and probably no bonus). What are your other options that would make this so unappealing?
 
Healthcare will always be in demand. This is not an assembly line job at a Detroit automotive company
 
koercive said:
Healthcare will always be in demand. This is not an assembly line job at a Detroit automotive company
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In 1965 probably 10-16% of the country was employed either directly or indirectly as a result of the car companies. Good example of why people would be worried about the future of a career today, thanks!
 
Thumper17 said:
In 1965 probably 10-16% of the country was employed either directly or indirectly as a result of the car companies. Good example of why people would be worried about the future of a career today, thanks!
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A very poor example of why someone should be worried about job security in health care. Until there is a cure for every human disease out there, or a robot that can make the decisions that doctors and pharmacists make every day, healthcare workers will always have a job. Replacing a heart or treating a complex disease is a little more complicated than a machine at general motors cutting metal. Your really going to compare healthcare to innovation and robots replacing manual labor on an assembly line???
 
If you're getting into pharmacy for the money and the money alone, don't waste your time. Seriously. The money will only keep you for a short period, most likely no more than 15 years. One thing I've learned in my life is, life is too short to do something you hate. It doesn't matter how much you're getting paid, if you don't like what you're doing you will be miserable. And this misery will translate over to your personal life. So take a serious look at the career you are choosing and determine if it's truly what you want to do. Explore the major areas, shadow or volunteer in a hospital and community pharmacy. Check out independent community because believe it or not, they make up a good chunk, almost half, of all the pharmacies in the country. Make damn sure it's what you want to do so you don't waste a seat that another person might have gotten that had a passion for the profession and been a pharmacist for their entire life.
 
IrishRxMan said:
If you're getting into pharmacy for the money and the money alone, don't waste your time. Seriously. The money will only keep you for a short period, most likely no more than 15 years. One thing I've learned in my life is, life is too short to do something you hate. It doesn't matter how much you're getting paid, if you don't like what you're doing you will be miserable. And this misery will translate over to your personal life. So take a serious look at the career you are choosing and determine if it's truly what you want to do. Explore the major areas, shadow or volunteer in a hospital and community pharmacy. Check out independent community because believe it or not, they make up a good chunk, almost half, of all the pharmacies in the country. Make damn sure it's what you want to do so you don't waste a seat that another person might have gotten that had a passion for the profession and been a pharmacist for their entire life.
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I tried to explain this before but from the responses that I was getting, it was clear that most people pre-pharmers were in it for the money. Let them figure it out on their own, after 100k-200k in debt, since explaining it now makes no sense to those with their eyes on the prize.
 
JackFruitLover said:
I heard that many areas are saturated with pharmacists now. If we were to enter pharmacy school now, would we be able to have jobs in the future?
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Thats totally false. There will always be pharmacy jobs. I dont know who always releases this false information concerning pharmacists oversupply. There are no facts or figures that show that pharmacists will be in oversupply. In fact, a lot of data has shown that there will be a shortage for a long time. By 2020, prescription drug demands have been projected to increase by 27%. I dont know why a lot of people say there will be a shortage when the facts and figures say the opposite. Dont freak out. Go to school to learn how to count pills for $100000 is a no brainer.
 
jasonbourne said:
Thats totally false. There will always be pharmacy jobs. I dont know who always releases this false information concerning pharmacists oversupply. There are no facts or figures that show that pharmacists will be in oversupply. In fact, a lot of data has shown that there will be a shortage for a long time. By 2020, prescription drug demands have been projected to increase by 27%. I dont know why a lot of people say there will be a shortage when the facts and figures say the opposite. Dont freak out. Go to school to learn how to count pills for $100000 is a no brainer.
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Facts and figures are lagging by a few years, anecdotal evidence indicates saturation in many individual markets. Also, the facts/figures showing a shortage do not take into account geography, so if there is a +2000 surplus in California and a -4000 shortage in North Dakota (arbitrary #'s for illustrative purposes), it'll still read as a shortage.

So yes, there will be jobs, there just won't be choice...shortage studies assume it's one homogeneous country and everyone is willing to move anywhere when clearly most people don't. If you're willing to relocate away from the desirable coasts to less desirable locales, you'll be just fine; otherwise, be prepared to job hunt and float/work PT/work less desirable schedules in 2012 and beyond.
 
confettiflyer said:
Facts and figures are lagging by a few years, anecdotal evidence indicates saturation in many individual markets. Also, the facts/figures showing a shortage do not take into account geography, so if there is a +2000 surplus in California and a -4000 shortage in North Dakota (arbitrary #'s for illustrative purposes), it'll still read as a shortage.

So yes, there will be jobs, there just won't be choice...shortage studies assume it's one homogeneous country and everyone is willing to move anywhere when clearly most people don't. If you're willing to relocate away from the desirable coasts to less desirable locales, you'll be just fine; otherwise, be prepared to job hunt and float/work PT/work less desirable schedules in 2012 and beyond.
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Anecdotal evidence can often times be circumstancial. For instance, if a person is looking for a specific job (i.e. has to work clinical because they'd rather saw off their genitals than work retail) and can't find it, they'll move elsewhere, citing that they "couldn't find a job". Once one person says it, it becomes common belief that the aforementioned area is saturated. That doesn't mean there were no jobs, and it doesn't mean that the only jobs left were in an oft-robbed, underfunded Rite-Aid in the middle of East St. Louis. It just means that the specific position a guy was looking for was filled. I'd take every argument you hear on this site about shortage and/or surplus with a grain of salt; neither side presents an ironclad argument because it's not a black and white issue.

The one piece of advice I would give is that if you want to go into pharmacy, you should get some experience, immerse yourself in the field so you can find out if it's what you want to do before you sink 6 years and 150K on it.

Also, I should point out that despite all the talk of not being able to get a job, there aren't any unemployed pharmacists that frequent this board. So even if there's more competition for a job, people in the field will still be fine.
 
Well yeah I agree there...pinpointing the market for pharmacists is next to impossible and hypergeographic. When people say CA is saturated, you have to drill down and say so-cal is saturated...but then you have to drill down even more and say OC/SD are saturated, LA/IE are not....then within LA, you have to drill down again and say the west side is saturated, but south central and east LA are most definitely not.

I mean you still have to consider the risk of saturation in your particular preferred market in your decision making process, to spend $120-$150k and not do that is just plain dumb.
 
Another thing to consider is yet another variable: Retirees. How many currently-employed but soon-retiring Pharmacists (5-10 years?) will need replacing?

Hard to say, but I suspect it'd be a fairly significant number, wouldn't you all?
 
Passion4Sci said:
Another thing to consider is yet another variable: Retirees. How many currently-employed but soon-retiring Pharmacists (5-10 years?) will need replacing?

Hard to say, but I suspect it'd be a fairly significant number, wouldn't you all?
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I will be interesting. I know a lot of people that lost a large portion of their 401k. The economy will prolly be the largest factor.
 
Maxpwer222 said:
I will be interesting. I know a lot of people that lost a large portion of their 401k. The economy will prolly be the largest factor.
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It's interesting to note that the number of claims for social security actually went UP vs. down over the past few months...that runs counter to the idea that people are sticking it out and delaying retirement.

It could be that pharmacy is an exception as there haven't been mass layoffs and pharmacists are able to continue work. There's no data on this, but anecdotal evidence shows people are maxing out unemployment and, after being unable to find work, are filing for social security benefits.
 
The OP is right. There will be absolutely NO Pharmacists jobs in 4 years. So my suggestion is to drop out of school and get heart disease so that I can fill your scripts when I get out.

Just a thought....
 
blah blah blah.. the only people that say that crap about going into a career just because you like it no matter what it pays are 99.9% of the time people that have never had a job.

In reality 99.9% of jobs suck.. maybe not the first day.. first year.. first decade... but at some point you WILL sit up and go... "Damn I am sick of this crap everyday." Even rock stars retire ya know.
 
triumphbr said:
blah blah blah.. the only people that say that crap about going into a career just because you like it no matter what it pays are 99.9% of the time people that have never had a job.

In reality 99.9% of jobs suck.. maybe not the first day.. first year.. first decade... but at some point you WILL sit up and go... "Damn I am sick of this crap everyday." Even rock stars retire ya know.
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Exactly. If pharmacists made 35k when they got out I would not be going to school for that. Also, if I absolutely hated pharmacy work but they made 200k, then I still would not be going to pharmacy school.
 
NaOH said:
I don't mind small towns, and $60,000 sounds like a fortune to me.

I'm feeling pretty optimistic. :cool:
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Same here. If I didn't have any loans (or kids), I'm pretty sure I could live comfortably in the lifestyle I want on about $30K/year.
 
homeslice said:
Same here. If I didn't have any loans (or kids), I'm pretty sure I could live comfortably in the lifestyle I want on about $30K/year.
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Me too. If I didn't have a family to worry about, debt to repay, or care about my quality of life...heck, I wouldn't care if pharmacy paid more then 35k/yr...but I do and I'm sure I'm not unique in this regard. If you don't think a career in pharmacy will afford you the life that you want...change it while you still can. But try to remember that there's a lot of flexibility in how you can apply your pharmacy education.
 
UCB2005 said:
Me too. If I didn't have a family to worry about, debt to repay, or care about my quality of life...heck, I wouldn't care if pharmacy paid more then 35k/yr...but I do and I'm sure I'm not unique in this regard. If you don't think a career in pharmacy will afford you the life that you want...change it while you still can. But try to remember that there's a lot of flexibility in how you can apply your pharmacy education.
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Yeah I lived fine on $35k...then again, at the time, I had no appreciable debt (only a $12k student loan at <3% and a couple grand on a credit card at <8%) and split an apartment with the gf at the time ($700 or so).

But yeah, if you just sunk $150k on a pharm degree AND spent four years doing it, I'd better be paid back. The lower the starting salary of pharmacy, the "longer" it takes to pass the break even point when it comes to the opportunity costs.

I feel bad for the idiots paying $120k for a private degree that tops out at $50k/yr annual salary (or average). That's a sucker's bet right there.
 
Yah pretty much Confettii... It's really routine nowadays for people wanting Psychology Ph.D/Psy.D to pay 150-275k for a degree that will, at best, start you off at $65,000 a year... And even with decent interest rates on those loans, you're still looking at a vow of poverty if you have a family, any debt at all and such.

I see Pharmacy heading in much the same way. People lured in to schools offering admission and a PharmD with subpar academics but at a higher pricetag, eventually forcing salary for Pharmacists down (Walmart isn't stupid. If there are 25 Pharmacists applying for the same opening at a store, they'll take the one who asks for the least amount of money.)

This is exactly what has happened to Psychology and Clinical Psychologists in the last 6 years that I witnessed happen... and it's pretty damn sad. The only thing Pharmacy has going for it over Psychology is the fact that healthcare needs Pharmacists daily, whereas Psychologists are easily passed over for LCSW and MFT clinicians who we called the insurance golden children.

I've pontificated on this a number of times, but I would be really surprised if, in 3 or 4 years, we're not seeing Pharmacy salaries dipping to around 60, 65 and going up with experience, instead of just starting at 85-95. Not saying 65k a year is bad by any stretch, but if you have 155k in loans to pay back, you're gonna be hurtin'.

It's sad =/
 
triumphbr said:
blah blah blah.. the only people that say that crap about going into a career just because you like it no matter what it pays are 99.9% of the time people that have never had a job.
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I beg to differ. I've had plenty of jobs over the years and pharmacy is definitely a job that I love. If I were only getting $65K a year I'd still do pharmacy because through working in the profession and learning more about it I love it more. I could do this job with half the pay and still be happy. There are going to be days where everything feels like it's gone completely insane, but that's with any job. Just because you haven't found something that you truly love to do doesn't mean it's not out there. If you can live with doing pharmacy without hating it, then use the money you have to do what you have a passion for or find out what you have a passion for and do it. The salary of a pharmacist will allow you to do that.
 
I don't think the move will be that drastic in 3-4 years time...it's not like the subprime crisis that blew up in everyones faces.

My guess is (for retail), it'll go like this:

1) Sign on bonuses disappearing in desirable areas (already happened)
2) Increased time to find a position at the previous price point
ie) jobs aren't falling into every graduates' lap. remember the tech bubble and some company hiring the entire graduating class at Stanford? Yeah, not gonna happen anymore.​
3) Lack of choice in schedule and locations within a particular region
4) Lower quality grads/pharmacists will be shut out of positions PERIOD in desirable regions.
lower quality = your ass is slow/can't handle pressure​

Once you satisfy all these...that's basically the point of true saturation. What then happens is that, aside from the bottom feeders who suck at their jobs, it'll be a race to the bottom for salaries.

5) No raises (or just COLA) for existing staff, new grads that ARE hired are paid at a lower rate (5-7% reduction) than existing staff.
Prediction: 2012-2014 as all the new schools from 2007-2009 start pumping out graduates in earnest​
6) Pretty soon, existing staff only sees COLA/COLA + 2% while starting salaries continue to fall in 3-5% increments.

Just my thoughts based on pharmacist supply...the true wild card in all this is on the demand side. Technological advances have kept massive increases in Rx count from overwhelming the small RPh pool in the early part of this decade.

Potential universal healthcare provisions might increase demand, but that'll definitely cause your taxes to rise, blunting the potential impact. Also, profit margins for pharmacies will shrink further as gov't reimbursement rates are so low and many PBM's run lock-step with the gov't rates.

Retail will then need to get creative and steer these poor folks into high margin items like cheese balls and generic lip balm to survive, pretty soon pharmacy simply becomes a loss leader (as it already has in many places).

Bottom line: salaries will fall (either directly <5% annually by 2012-2014 or by attrition through inflation), but there are other things (like increased stress, less respect) that are to be considered. Financially, pharmacy is still a good bet, just the days of being able to shat and eat at work without falling behind are long gone.
 
confettiflyer said:
Financially, pharmacy is still a good bet, just the days of being able to shat and eat at work without falling behind are long gone.
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Haha that's why I wished I was born 10 years earlier so I could reap the benefits of yesteryear. A family friend of ours graduated in 2000 and received amazing sign-on bonuses and contracts. Every time I see her, she tells me how easy it will be to pay for school loans and to find a job with great benefits. But I have a feeling she isn't aware of the leveling off that we're already experiencing.
 
confettiflyer said:
I don't think the move will be that drastic in 3-4 years time...it's not like the subprime crisis that blew up in everyones faces.

My guess is (for retail), it'll go like this:

1) Sign on bonuses disappearing in desirable areas (already happened)
2) Increased time to find a position at the previous price point
ie) jobs aren't falling into every graduates' lap. remember the tech bubble and some company hiring the entire graduating class at Stanford? Yeah, not gonna happen anymore.
​
3) Lack of choice in schedule and locations within a particular region
4) Lower quality grads/pharmacists will be shut out of positions PERIOD in desirable regions.
lower quality = your ass is slow/can't handle pressure
​
Once you satisfy all these...that's basically the point of true saturation. What then happens is that, aside from the bottom feeders who suck at their jobs, it'll be a race to the bottom for salaries.

5) No raises (or just COLA) for existing staff, new grads that ARE hired are paid at a lower rate (5-7% reduction) than existing staff.
Prediction: 2012-2014 as all the new schools from 2007-2009 start pumping out graduates in earnest
​
6) Pretty soon, existing staff only sees COLA/COLA + 2% while starting salaries continue to fall in 3-5% increments.

Just my thoughts based on pharmacist supply...the true wild card in all this is on the demand side. Technological advances have kept massive increases in Rx count from overwhelming the small RPh pool in the early part of this decade.

Potential universal healthcare provisions might increase demand, but that'll definitely cause your taxes to rise, blunting the potential impact. Also, profit margins for pharmacies will shrink further as gov't reimbursement rates are so low and many PBM's run lock-step with the gov't rates.

Retail will then need to get creative and steer these poor folks into high margin items like cheese balls and generic lip balm to survive, pretty soon pharmacy simply becomes a loss leader (as it already has in many places).

Bottom line: salaries will fall (either directly <5% annually by 2012-2014 or by attrition through inflation), but there are other things (like increased stress, less respect) that are to be considered. Financially, pharmacy is still a good bet, just the days of being able to shat and eat at work without falling behind are long gone.
Click to expand...

This is pretty much how I see it too (although you worded it much more eloquently than I could). Any predicitions for hospital or specialty positions?
 
trailrider400 said:
A very poor example of why someone should be worried about job security in health care. Until there is a cure for every human disease out there, or a robot that can make the decisions that doctors and pharmacists make every day, healthcare workers will always have a job. Replacing a heart or treating a complex disease is a little more complicated than a machine at general motors cutting metal. Your really going to compare healthcare to innovation and robots replacing manual labor on an assembly line???
Click to expand...

Yes, considering I work with a robot that pulls medications that don't have to be checked by pharmacists everyday (less pharmacists needed!) and robots that are peforming surgery in our OR, I think the two are very compareable.

People will always need healthcare, granted, but the number of people required to provide that healthcare will fluctuate with time. Just because your job is in healthcare does not mean you job is iron-clad. Call it a poor exmple if you wish, but I assure you no industry (or part of an industry) is immune to contraction.
 
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