overcoming 3rd year grades

[magicfool]

Hey guys,

I'm an MS3 that's been interested in ENT since first year. I did well on the step I (260+) but unfortunately my third year grades have been mediocre (mostly high passes). Part of it is my school (only 10% honors for each rotation) and part of it is me (quiet personality, maybe not aggressive enough).

I recently got an offer to spend a year working on a research project with an ENT surgeon at my school. Its a cool project, and I think it would be a good research experience to add to my CV, as well as a chance to get to know a faculty member really well for an LOR. From what I can tell this attending is a pretty big name in the field (although its hard to tell as a medical student).

ENT is my first choice of specialties right now, but I'm not wedded to it. I think I could be happy doing something else if ENT didn't work out. But I'd like to start planning to apply for something else earlier rather than later if this isn't meant to be.

I'd like to know how much taking a year off to do research between 3rd and 4th year will help me as an applicant to ENT. Would good board scores, research, and a good LOR be enough to overcome my 3rd year grades, or would I still be a marginal applicant?

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[asmallchild]

I can't speak regarding the ENT aspect but I had applied to another largely competitive specialty with similar average 3rd year grades and was still able to match.

I think taking a year off to do research (especially at a place that has an ENT residency and a habit of taking their research fellows) would probably be a beneficial thing.

From others applying in my class, it appears that they do look for high medicine and surgery grades (read: honors) in ENT but hey, they said the same thing about the field I applied to.

 

[gstrub]

You may not need the year of research...why not try to match without it? If you don't match (and have decided ENT for sure so only rank ENT), you can always spend the year between matches doing research. It would also demonstrate your commitment for the 2nd round. I could be way off here, but why spend an extra year if you may not need to?

 

[Pir8DeacDoc]

I agree with the above. Why not just give it a try without the research year? As someone on the other side of the process I look at your application as a whole. If you have solid step scores and a good CV, and you are likeable, then you're a go in my book. You'd be surprised how many bright people can't carry on a conversation. I think with a Step score that high you should match somewhere for sure if you apply broadly. Somewhere will appreciate your quiet personality.

 

[asmallchild]

I will agree a quiet personality is damaging when it comes to 3rd year grades. I think it actually worked to my benefit as a 4th year student.

Often times, students try so hard to impress people when they're on an audition rotation because this is the field they really want. I've seen other students just come on way too strongly without knowing when to stop.

I think in this case, my quiet nature (and hopefully you will share a similar experience) might have actually been appreciated in a sea of perhaps overenthusiastic rotators.

All that being said, there's a difference between being nice/quiet and aloof/quiet.

 

[magicfool]

You may not need the year of research...why not try to match without it? If you don't match (and have decided ENT for sure so only rank ENT), you can always spend the year between matches doing research. It would also demonstrate your commitment for the 2nd round. I could be way off here, but why spend an extra year if you may not need to?

I guess I'm genuinely interested in doing research for a year, both for intellectual reasons and for personal reasons (wanting to recharge a little before the intensity of the application process and starting residency).

My overall question was more one of whether I'd have a good chance of matching after doing a year of research in ENT. If I'd be a longshot I thought I might try to spend my year doing research in another field that I'd have a better chance of getting into.

BTW thanks to all the residents who stopped by to offer advice - much appreciated.

 

[neutropeniaboy]

Here's my take on your situation...as an attending reviewing your file.

When I sit down to read your file, the biggest question I have to answer is "Why should we take this student before all others?"

Your application in many ways looks as good, if not worse (and better), than the rest of them. Your board scores of 260 are great. Honestly, however, I'm starting to see more of them these days. Your grades are high pass. We see a lot of high passes, but we also see a lot of honors as well. If you say your school gives out honors to only 10%, I don't say "Oh, I see now." Rather, I say, "Why aren't you in that 10%?"

Reading your personal statement and the letters of recommendation are going to be very helpful. A personal statement that tells us about your first experience with that truly life altering thyroid operation you saw and how elegantly the attending dissected the beautiful myriad of nerves and vessels really makes me vomit. I would much rather read a personal statement that lets me know who you really are, how much of a worker you are, and how much you want to do ENT. I don't want to work with bland people who may spend the time thinking about how they could have been internists, or dermatologists, or bankers.

The letters of recommendation start to look all the same as well. If someone really takes an interest in you, we'll be able to pick it out.

But, it all boils down to that same question: "Why should I pick this guy?" If you've worked hard through school (as reflected by your grades and USMLE scores), that will be noticed. If your statement is honest and well thought out, we'll pick up on this as well. If you've done research, this will help as well. But, if you take a year off of school just to do research, not only will this give you an "in" with whomever mentored you, but it will also tell others that you are serious about doing ENT. This will also give you something real to discuss when we ask you about your research experience. When we ask if you're interested in academics, we might actually believe you as opposed to the student who wrote up a couple of case reports.

And when we sit down with you face to face, we'll have a good assessment of how much you want to do ENT as a career.

My advice: do the research.

 

[Fah-Q]

Don't call it "ENT".

 

[SplenoMegastar]

Is there some reason it's okay for attendings to call it ENT but not medical students?

 

[Fah-Q]

Is there some reason it's okay for attendings to call it ENT but not medical students?

No. What gave you that idea?

 

[neutropeniaboy]

Is there some reason it's okay for attendings to call it ENT but not medical students?

I'm not sure.

Some people get really upset about calling it ENT. I think it's because it implies that it is only ears, nose, and throat when "otolaryngology" is so much more.

As a medical student, I never called it "ENT." Now as an attending, I say "ENT" all the time -- as an informal reference only. Casual conversation only.

But personally, I really don't care either way. I know what I do.

 

[chirurgino]

I would take the extra year -- it can only help you, and the worst thing you can do for any aspect of your application is to imagine that you can "make up" for it during a year off if you don't match.

Your chances of matching go down exponentially if you do not match the first time, so you really are best served by maximizing your application the first time around. For example, my training program simply does not interview people who did not match in a previous year (with the thought being that this practice would be unfair to the large number of very qualified candidates among the first-time applicants).

 

[BOOURNS]

I'll go against the grain and say that I don't think there's a big reason for you not to apply this year. Your step is awesome, and since you say "mostly high passes", I assume that means that you have some honors this year? What did you get on your surgery rotation?

Do you have any research at all on your resume? If not, it certainly isn't too late to do something in the ENT realm for your application. You don't need an incredible research background to match ENT, especially with your step 1 score. My research experience was very weak, I got 253, only had one honors 3rd year (in surg), no AOA, and I managed to match into my top choice (a CA program) this year. So it can be done.

This all said, if you really want to do a research year, by all means do it. But don't do it thinking that you have to in order to be competitive.

 

[abcxyz0123]

i'll go against the grain and say that i don't think there's a big reason for you not to \
this all said, if you really want to do a research year, by all means do it. But don't do it thinking that you have to in order to be competitive.

haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhahahaahhahahahah great username

 

[ENT123]

I hear that they call it ORL in Europe which makes a lot more sense. ORL = Oto-Rhino-Laryngology