Osteopathic medical students for the use of a MDO title

[J1515]

Oh, it's real alright-- but to a very vocal minority. Ask your self this question: Why would he be so willing to put this to a vote right now? I'll tell you why...because he knows that it will fail miserably. After that, the press releases will read, "The majority of DOs has overwhelmingly and resoundingly affirmed the desire to remain DOs and not switch to some other designation. The AOA, in responding to this very vocal minority, has shown that it has concern for each and every member by going through the process, and in doing so has shown that the will of the majority is on the minds of the AOA leadership."

Literally every single one of miami's posts on SDN since he started school is talking about changing the DO letters (just check his post history). He apparently has no worries about all of the other issues facing osteopathic medicine.

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[schrute]

Answer one question: Why didn't you go to an MD school? And don't give me this BS about the philosophy and you wanted to treat the whole patient and become a better physician and learn OMM. MDs do exactly the same thing and can take CME classes to learn OMM.

It's not our fault you never got off the waitlist at your MD schools and are now forced to be a DO. You should have gone to the Carribean or reapplied yet again. Just do us all a favor, drop out now, and reapply to MD schools and let us worry about fixing problems that actually have to do with the way we learn and practice medicine as opposed to this superficial nonsense the 2 or 3 MD wannabees are most worried about. The fact that social recognition is the most important thing to you and you don't care that schools are expanding without control, admission standards are low, tons of osteopathic residencies go unfilled each year, and we are forced to learn cranial manipulation pretty much sums up your motives for going into medicine in the first place.

I'm don't support the MDO title change, and I think it would cause more problems and confusion than before, but you're a complete tool.

Any time someone has a complaint about the osteopathic profession, whether it's the title-change issue, OMM, OGME, whatever, people like you eventually defend your position by denigrating your opponent with the ad hominem "why didn't you go MD?" bit. It's seriously a cop out, and basically shows you have nothing of any substance left to say.

This thread has gone on too long and is a complete waste of time. The title change does nothing to address the problems at the core of our profession…MIAM, why don't you focus your efforts on something that will be meaningful. Just because Ajluni addressed it doesn't mean it's a serious issue…any AOA president is going to pick his fights, especially in a DO magazine…it's an issue he knows he can win. Why don't we ever see him talk about OMT? Cranial? How about the fact that in 2008, the notion that the osteopathic profession as a whole ‘offers something unique' is a joke?

 

[J1515]

I'm don't support the MDO title change, and I think it would cause more problems and confusion than before, but you're a complete tool.

Any time someone has a complaint about the osteopathic profession, whether it's the title-change issue, OMM, OGME, whatever, people like you eventually defend your position by denigrating your opponent with the ad hominem "why didn't you go MD?" bit. It's seriously a cop out, and basically shows you have nothing of any substance left to say.

Why don't you get a clue. Have you read ANY of the posts in this thread? I'm the first to say there are plenty of problems with the osteopathic profession, and I'll list them yet again:

Being forced to learn cranial or BLT with no solid evidence to support their effectiveness.

Lack of quality osteopathic residencies in many regions of the US.

Low academic standards for admission to DO schools.

Uncontrolled expansion of DO schools.

The possible new trend of for profit DO schools.

These are all points that are more important than changing the letters after our name. That's about the 10th time I've said the same thing in this thread but you wouldn't know that since you just skipped to the last post and ran your mouth. Changing the initials will not fix any of the above mentioned problems, but it will in fact satisfy the MD-rejects who used DO as a backup.

 

[schrute]

Why don't you get a clue. Have you read ANY of the posts in this thread? I'm the first to say there are plenty of problems with the osteopathic profession, and I'll list them yet again:

Being forced to learn cranial or BLT with no solid evidence to support their effectiveness.

Lack of quality osteopathic residencies in many regions of the US.

Low academic standards for admission to DO schools.

Uncontrolled expansion of DO schools.

The possible new trend of for profit DO schools.

These are all points that are more important than changing the letters after our name. That's about the 10th time I've said the same thing in this thread but you wouldn't know that since you just skipped to the last post and ran your mouth. Changing the initials will not fix any of the above mentioned problems, but it will in fact satisfy the MD-rejects who used DO as a backup.

Actually there, Dora, I've been reading this thread for a good 2 weeks now, I just haven't posted. Just because people don't bother to waste time posting 18 times a day doesn't mean they aren't reading the thread, toolbox.

Anyway, I know that's about the '10th' time you've said that, but it doesn't give you an excuse to use the "why don't you quit and go MD" bull****.

 

[J1515]

Actually there, Dora, I've been reading this thread for a good 2 weeks now, I just haven't posted. Just because people don't bother to waste time posting 18 times a day doesn't mean they aren't reading the thread, toolbox.

Anyway, I know that's about the '10th' time you've said that, but it doesn't give you an excuse to use the "why don't you quit and go MD" bull****.

It sure does. The initials are superficial. There are a few people who feel that is the biggest problem facing osteopathic medicine. To them, all their problems would be solved if they went the MD route (except most of them were rejected from MD schools). Nobody forced them to become a DO. I'm more interested in fixing the things that matter. I don't care what the letters are, "toolbox" (lol grow up).

 

[schrute]

It sure does. The initials are superficial. There are a few people who feel that is the biggest problem facing osteopathic medicine. To them, all their problems would be solved if they went the MD route (except most of them were rejected from MD schools). Nobody forced them to become a DO. I'm more interested in fixing the things that matter. I don't care what the letters are, "toolbox" (lol grow up).

Why? How does some naïve student wanting to make a meaningless change give you a pass to attack him using a cop out argument?

Just because you “care about other issues” doesn’t give you authorization to ask snide rhetorical questions like “Why didn’t you go to MD school?”

Sorry, dude, you’re the one who needs to grow up.

 

[J1515]

Why? How does some naïve student wanting to make a meaningless change give you a pass to attack him using a cop out argument?

Just because you “care about other issues” doesn’t give you authorization to ask snide rhetorical questions like “Why didn’t you go to MD school?”

Sorry, dude, you’re the one who needs to grow up.

Telling someone they should choose to get an MD degree if they want those letters to follow their name isn't a cop out at all. It's the truth. If in fact the majority of DOs really did fight to change the letters, can you imagine how the allopathic world would laugh at us while patients became even more confused? The more people whine about their degree initials, the more insecure they appear with themselves as a future physician. It's an embarassment to the profession you and I are about to join. My question to him wasn't rhetorical in the least. He made it plain and clear that his biggest issue with DOs is social recognition. If that was the case then why become a DO in the first place?

 

[schrute]

Telling someone they should choose to get an MD degree if they want those letters to follow their name isn't a cop out at all. It's the truth. If in fact the majority of DOs really did fight to change the letters, can you imagine how the allopathic world would laugh at us while patients became even more confused? The more people whine about their degree initials, the more insecure they appear with themselves as a future physician. It's an embarassment to the profession you and I are about to join. My question to him wasn't rhetorical in the least. He made it plain and clear that his biggest issue with DOs is social recognition. If that was the case then why become a DO in the first place?

Things don't change because complacent elements drink the Kool-Aid…they change because people stir things up.
But I’m not suggesting the MDO title change is a good idea…I think it’s stupid…but I’m so damn sick of people defending osteopathic medicine with the “why didn’t you go MD” argument anytime someone has a complaint.

You said, “It's not our fault you never got off the waitlist at your MD schools and are now forced to be a DO.”
That’s kind of cheap…

Again, I agree with you an MDO change would be stupid…just remember that when people are critical of the osteopathic profession (even when discussing valid complaints like you mentioned….

Being forced to learn cranial or BLT with no solid evidence to support their effectiveness…Lack of quality osteopathic residencies in many regions of the US….Low academic standards for admission to DO schools….Uncontrolled expansion of DO schools)

…people defend the status quo using the same “why didn’t you go MD” argument…and it doesn't propogate any worthwhile discussion.

 

[schrute]

let's see if we can keep this going for the whole 10th page...

 

[J1515]

You said, “It's not our fault you never got off the waitlist at your MD schools and are now forced to be a DO.” That’s kind of cheap…

I agree it's a cheap shot, but a well deserved one in my opinion since this specific individual used DO as a backup and is now more concerned with the letters following his name rather than improvements that could make us better physicians. Telling people over and over to "read the article, there is an article about it in the DO magazine so therefore it must be a good idea" isn't a worthwhile discussion. When people whine about superficial stuff like this I'm embarassed to be associated with them. I don't mean to sound harsh but it's true. It just shows that their main concern isn't saving lives or treating patients, but having people know "I'm a doctor, damnit!" Now how does that make us all look? I am proud of being a DO, proud of the way I am going to practice medicine, and want to be proud of the training I get regardless of what letters follow my name.

 

[miam042]

Excellent posts Shrute. I agree with you, this thread is ruined and drawn out.

No offense to J1515 (who knows all of osteopathy); but he has ruined this thread. He and others have flooded it
with cheap presumptuous attacks just like the post before this.

He is the classic example of traditional osteopath: completely defensive and dismissive of others ideas.
He and many others pawn off those that disagree with them as traitors, MD rejects and speak to them
as if they are not worthy of discussing issues at their level. Its pathetic. This type of attitude is whats ruining the profession.

- Too proud to look at serious threats to osteopathic medicine, and certainly too scared to discuss them.

 

[bth7]

Telling someone they should choose to get an MD degree if they want those letters to follow their name isn't a cop out at all. It's the truth. If in fact the majority of DOs really did fight to change the letters, can you imagine how the allopathic world would laugh at us while patients became even more confused? The more people whine about their degree initials, the more insecure they appear with themselves as a future physician. It's an embarassment to the profession you and I are about to join. My question to him wasn't rhetorical in the least. He made it plain and clear that his biggest issue with DOs is social recognition. If that was the case then why become a DO in the first place?

Your "Why didn't you just go MD" argument is obnoxious and monodimensional. People don't go to medical school to become a DO. They go to become physicians, to learn how to take care of patients, to be good doctors.

You obviously disagree that changing the degree name would be a good idea. But stop pretending that anyone has ever suggested that the degree change is the most important issue facing osteopathic medicine. No one has. EVERYONE agrees that are other important issues facing osteopathic medicine.

You don't agree with the change. But please, can it with the meaningless personal attacks and the empty insinuations of disloyalty to your imaginary osteopathic way of life.

The terms allopathic and osteopathic are utterly outdated. They no longer refer to any meaningful difference in actual practice whatsoever. This has been shown in studies conducted by researchers within the osteopathic community.

Licciardone, JC. A comparison of patient visits to osteopathic and allopathic general and family medicine physicians. Osteopath Med Prim Care. 2007 Jan 12;1:2. PMID 17371578

Some MDs practice holistic medicine, as do some DOs.
Some MDs practice manipulation, as do a small minority of DOs.

In terms of the type of medicine they practice, MD is absolutely equal to DO. Stop pretending otherwise.

If you personally want to practice holism in medicine or manipulation in medicine, that's great! And I commend you for it. But be prepared to accept the fact that you're just as likely to find MD colleagues who want to do the same as you are to find DO colleagues.

bth

 

[Kappy1]

Sorry to Hijack the thread. But the basic answer to why not go to an MD School and then learn OMM is that you can't just learn OMM and become good at in CME courses and be up to par as DO students who learn it for four years during medical school.

Secoundly the DO profession would not exsist if it weren't for MD wanna be's who were not accepted to MD programs. If it were not for the MD wanna be's DO schools wouldn't be able to fill their classes. Take a pole in any DO school and ask how many students applied to MD programs. Probably close to 75% or more. What percentage would have gone MD if accepted probably 70% of them. J1515, you probably owe your whole DO education to MD wanna be's.

 

[J1515]

Your "Why didn't you just go MD" argument is obnoxious and monodimensional. People don't go to medical school to become a DO. They go to become physicians, to learn how to take care of patients, to be good doctors.

Exactly. Couldn't agree more. So let's start thinking about what changes can be made that will help us be better doctors.

You obviously disagree that changing the degree name would be a good idea. But stop pretending that anyone has ever suggested that the degree change is the most important issue facing osteopathic medicine. No one has. EVERYONE agrees that are other important issues facing osteopathic medicine.

Not everyone. Go back in this thread and you will see where miami said that social recognition IS the most important issue facing osteopathic medicine today. I think it's great that you, yourself, recognize there are other more important issues besides changing the degree initials.

You don't agree with the change. But please, can it with the meaningless personal attacks and the empty insinuations of disloyalty to your imaginary osteopathic way of life.

You are completely misunderstanding me. This has nothing to do with disloyalty or "the osteopathic way." I've said a thousand times MD is exactly the same if you take OMM classes as CME credit. This has to do with focusing our effort on changing things that will make us better physicians, regardless of the letters that follow our name. Asking the OP why he didn't go to an MD school isn't a personal attack. He made it clear that he thinks the letters are the most important issue. So common sense dictates that getting an MD is the best way to fix that problem.

In terms of the type of medicine they practice, MD is absolutely equal to DO. Stop pretending otherwise.

Stop making things up. Please show me where I've ever said there is a difference. For the thousandth and 1 time, if someone is so obsessed with having the letters MD after their name, just go to an MD school and take CME credits for OMM. It's exactly the same thing. There is no difference. I agree with you.

If you personally want to practice holism in medicine or manipulation in medicine, that's great! And I commend you for it. But be prepared to accept the fact that you're just as likely to find MD colleagues who want to do the same as you are to find DO colleagues.

bth

lol this has never been an issue with me. I'm not sure where you're getting all this stuff from. I don't care who practices holism or manipulation and in fact you can do it with both degrees. The point is if we are going to stomp our feet and fight and scream for change, it should be for a change that will help us save more lives.

 

[J1515]

- Too proud to look at serious threats to osteopathic medicine, and certainly too scared to discuss them.

So you've made it clear the initials following our name are the most serious problem facing osteopathic medicine. Answer two questions (that you've conveniently ignored in the past):

1) How will changing my initials help me better manage a patient who presents to the ER with recurrent chest pain?

2) If you truly think "social recognition" is the biggest problem facing DOs today, why not become an MD - since bth already said they practice the same exact way (and I agree). That would solve what you feel is going to be the biggest problem in your upcoming career as a DO.

So here is your chance to have a rational discussion. No insults. And providing me with links and saying "read the article" is not an acceptable explanation to either of the above two questions.

There are plenty of problems with osteopathic medicine that I'd like to change. These are problems that directly effect our knowledge base, education, and our skills as a physician to provide treatments.

 

[ShyRem]

This thread has degenerated into an MD/DO issue. I'm closing it and reminding everyone to read Lee's sticky at the top of the PRE-OSTEO forum regarding MD/DO issues.

I expect this kind of argument from the ignorant pre-meds who don't know any better yet. I expect better from those who are actually in the profession.